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  1. - Top - End - #1
    Dwarf in the Playground
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    Default Wizard schools that can bypass legendary resistance?

    In high level campaigns, many monsters have lgendary resistance. What are the wizard schools that are best for bypassing legendary resistance? Thanks.
    Last edited by hwem; 2019-03-17 at 10:45 PM.

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    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    BlueKnightGuy

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    Default Re: Wizard schools that can bypass legendary resistance?

    I am not sure I understand the question.
    Not trying to be hostile, just seeking clarification.

    I think what you are asking is what spells will get past legendary resistance. Which is maybe more of a which spells don’t need a save, to be effective?
    Question.

    Which would be any spell that buffs or triggers effects outside of a saving throw.
    Some I can think of might be mental prison, wall of fire, most direct damage spells have a half damage effect and Wish (depending on spell chosen)

    Is that closer to what you are asking?

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    PaladinGuy

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    Default Re: Wizard schools that can bypass legendary resistance?

    If you want to help break down legendary resistances by forcing them to use it, divination's portent ability is the only wizard class feature I can think of in particular that would help with that.
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    Halfling in the Playground
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    Default Re: Wizard schools that can bypass legendary resistance?

    There is no one school that offers this, you’re just looking for spells that don’t offer saves, or force multiple rolls.

    Contagion is good for burning through legendary resistance because it forces 3 saves, same with flesh to stone, except flesh to stone requires concentration. Throwing both on the big bad will force 2 saves a round for three rounds.

    The thing is, usually constitution is a high save on legendary monsters. Tag it with contagions slimy doom for disadvantage on constitution saves and a stunning effect whenever you do damage.

  5. - Top - End - #5
    Bugbear in the Playground
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    Default Re: Wizard schools that can bypass legendary resistance?

    Look for spells that require ability checks, not saves. Checks don’t fall under legendary resistance

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    Dwarf in the Playground
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    Default Re: Wizard schools that can bypass legendary resistance?

    At least it probably isn't divination or enchant since both their school features (i.e. portent, hypnotic gaze) that they rely heavily around are prone to legendary resistances. I don't know which school is the least vulnerable to legendary resistances when looking at their school features though. You do mean their school features right?

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    MonkGirl

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    Default Re: Wizard schools that can bypass legendary resistance?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mikal View Post
    Look for spells that require ability checks, not saves. Checks don’t fall under legendary resistance
    Which is, if I recall correctly, mostly Illusion magic

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    Zombie

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    Default Re: Wizard schools that can bypass legendary resistance?

    Sickening Radiance is a good spell for encouraging them to burn their legendary resistance.
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    Ogre in the Playground
     
    BardGuy

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    Default Re: Wizard schools that can bypass legendary resistance?

    A bard casting telekinesis bypasses legendary resistance and adds half profeciency to the opposed roll.

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    Dwarf in the Playground
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    Default Re: Wizard schools that can bypass legendary resistance?

    Quote Originally Posted by Naanomi View Post
    Which is, if I recall correctly, mostly Illusion magic
    If true then here it is TC! Assuming illusionist has the less amount of legendary res hurting them...I guess the answer is illusionist...? The problem is the DM resistance though lol. It seems like many DMs actaully hate illusionists...esp at high level.

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    Ettin in the Playground
     
    MindFlayer

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    Default Re: Wizard schools that can bypass legendary resistance?

    Quote Originally Posted by Naanomi View Post
    Which is, if I recall correctly, mostly Illusion magic
    Bigby's hand, wall of force (any wall, but force is usually best) can both work well. Spells that need attack rolls are OK if you need to. Forcecage is neat. But yeah, illusions are a good start.

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    Bugbear in the Playground
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    Default Re: Wizard schools that can bypass legendary resistance?

    Quote Originally Posted by kenGarff View Post
    If true then here it is TC! Assuming illusionist has the less amount of legendary res hurting them...I guess the answer is illusionist...? The problem is the DM resistance though lol. It seems like many DMs actaully hate illusionists...esp at high level.
    They are usually intelligence checks yeah. Couple others are maze and evards black tentacles.

    But yeah those and then attack roll spells that don’t allow saves are what you’d want to be using

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    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    GnomeWizardGuy

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    Default Re: Wizard schools that can bypass legendary resistance?

    Level 14 Illusionist can create a real object that restrains the enemy. Cast Major/minor illusion or silent image. Something like heavily weighted adamantine shackles around the wrists, ankles and waist with a built in muzzle; the target gets no save and because the object becomes real with a bonus action not even a successful investigation check will save them.

    Adamantine is extremely resistant to damage with something like 23 AC and up to 100 hp.

    Flying Red Dragon? Now it's unable to move, breathe fire, fly away or attack without disadvantage.

    Truly, the level 14 illusionist is the answer you seek.
    Last edited by TheUser; 2019-03-17 at 09:23 PM.

  14. - Top - End - #14
    Ettin in the Playground
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    Default Re: Wizard schools that can bypass legendary resistance?

    Maze is a good start, especially against low-intelligence enemies. Telekinesis or Bigsby's Hand can also pin an enemy down through ability checks rather than saves.

    If you have a Warlock, consider having them Hex the target on the appropriate ability first (another advantage to spells that target ability checks.) Lore Bards can also use Cutting Words to ruin successful escape checks on Telekinesis or Bigsby's Hand, and if they cast Telekinesis themselves they can add their Jack of All Trades bonus to their side of the opposed check.

    Forcecage is also an old standby, although it requires that they fit inside the cage.
    Last edited by Aquillion; 2019-03-17 at 09:21 PM.

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    EvilClericGuy

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    Default Re: Wizard schools that can bypass legendary resistance?

    Quote Originally Posted by TheUser View Post
    Level 14 Illusionist can create a real object that restrains the enemy. Cast Major/minor illusion or silent image. Something like heavily weighted adamantine shackles around the wrists, ankles and waist with a built in muzzle; the target gets no save and because the object becomes real with a bonus action not even a successful investigation check will save them.

    Adamantine is extremely resistant to damage with something like 23 AC and up to 100 hp.

    Flying Red Dragon? Now it's unable to move, breathe fire, fly away or attack without disadvantage.

    Truly, the level 14 illusionist is the answer you seek.
    That assumes the enemy is kind enough to stand perfectly still between the casting and the Malleable Illusion. In combat, that's about never.

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    Bugbear in the Playground
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    Default Re: Wizard schools that can bypass legendary resistance?

    Quote Originally Posted by JackPhoenix View Post
    That assumes the enemy is kind enough to stand perfectly still between the casting and the Malleable Illusion. In combat, that's about never.
    Of course if the illusion already shackles/holds in place the creature needs to make the check to get out of it regardless, which still does the whole “how do I get past legendary resistance” bit.

    Honestly turning illusion to reality does very little compared to the illusion itself with regards to effects the OP would care about.

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    EvilClericGuy

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    Default Re: Wizard schools that can bypass legendary resistance?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mikal View Post
    Of course if the illusion already shackles/holds in place the creature needs to make the check to get out of it regardless, which still does the whole “how do I get past legendary resistance” bit.

    Honestly turning illusion to reality does very little compared to the illusion itself with regards to effects the OP would care about.
    Except no illusion can do anything like that.

  18. - Top - End - #18
    Ettin in the Playground
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    Default Re: Wizard schools that can bypass legendary resistance?

    Quote Originally Posted by JackPhoenix View Post
    Except no illusion can do anything like that.
    Well, Phantasmal Force could, but it requires a save, which defeats the purpose of using it to answer this question. Also perhaps Mental Prison.

    Also, I think you could do it with Seeming, if you counted the shackles as clothing or equipment.

    I think you could probably try using other illusions that way? Nothing strictly forbids it. "An illusion of shackles binding that guy" seems like a valid use of Silent Image, provided the shackles could fit within Silent Image's area limits. The real question is...

    That assumes the enemy is kind enough to stand perfectly still between the casting and the Malleable Illusion. In combat, that's about never.
    Malleable Illusion is a Bonus action. So the question is whether your victim can move enough between your action and bonus action to get out of the shackles. That's really a DM call.
    Last edited by Aquillion; 2019-03-18 at 01:10 PM.

  19. - Top - End - #19
    Troll in the Playground
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    Default Re: Wizard schools that can bypass legendary resistance?

    Otto's Irresistible Dance works for one round regardless and could make them burn a save to remove.

    Agree that Telekinesis is great with a bard and even better with Target hexed.
    If you cast Dispel Magic on my Gust of Wind, does that mean you're disgusting?

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    Bugbear in the Playground
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    Default Re: Wizard schools that can bypass legendary resistance?

    Ray of Enfeeblement is a great pick. Low level, requires an initial attack roll to hit, you gain at least one round of halved strength damage (which applies to quite a few monsters, even those that do all-fire/psychic/etc. damage) and you can force a save. Granted, they will probably pass the Constitution save, but a wizard who spends the entire combat blasting, say, an ancient green dragon with Ray of Enfeeblement is more than contributing.

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    GnomeWizardGuy

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    Default Re: Wizard schools that can bypass legendary resistance?

    Quote Originally Posted by Aquillion View Post
    Well, Phantasmal Force could, but it requires a save, which defeats the purpose of using it to answer this question.
    Not necessarily IMO. Some of the earlier answers (like Sickening Radiance) also offer another path: burn through the resistance. In many ways, Phantasmal force is almost as good as a recurring-save spell like Radiance, in that it requires a save, that they either burn a legendary on, OR they have bad stuff happen which requires them to use their ACTION to break through (not a legendary resistance, thus you're turn-denying them too), and all for a level 2 slot. That's pretty nice.

    So I wouldn't discount the utility of using "decent but not horrific" low-level spells to burn through a big bad's legendary resistances. Just bad enough to get the DM to consider burning the legendaries for can be worth it.

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    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    NinjaGirl

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    Default Re: Wizard schools that can bypass legendary resistance?

    Quote Originally Posted by Eriol View Post
    Not necessarily IMO. Some of the earlier answers (like Sickening Radiance) also offer another path: burn through the resistance. In many ways, Phantasmal force is almost as good as a recurring-save spell like Radiance, in that it requires a save, that they either burn a legendary on, OR they have bad stuff happen which requires them to use their ACTION to break through (not a legendary resistance, thus you're turn-denying them too), and all for a level 2 slot. That's pretty nice.

    So I wouldn't discount the utility of using "decent but not horrific" low-level spells to burn through a big bad's legendary resistances. Just bad enough to get the DM to consider burning the legendaries for can be worth it.
    The only thing more fun than burning through LR and landing a crippling spell like Feeblemind, is convincing it (or the DM) that there's something worse than whatever it's currently saving against and finally killing it with its LR (and your high level slot) intact.

  23. - Top - End - #23
    Ettin in the Playground
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    Default Re: Wizard schools that can bypass legendary resistance?

    True. Efficient low-level spells that require saves mean that you sort of win whatever they do.
    Last edited by Aquillion; 2019-03-18 at 11:44 PM.

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    Default Re: Wizard schools that can bypass legendary resistance?

    You need some sort of "per turn" spell effects that will force enemy to take saves. And effect should be nasty enough so that DM will panic and use Legendary saves to succeed.

    For example my friend was playing 2 Warlock/18 Wizard character and was placing Prismatic Wall behind enemy and using Repelling Blast from E-Blast to push him into wall, forcing saves.

    Cloud spells are not bad for it too. Monk are quite good with forcing Legendary saves with Stunning.

    But there is no way to "bypass" them sadly.

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    ElfPirate

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    Default Re: Wizard schools that can bypass legendary resistance?

    Quote Originally Posted by Alucard89 View Post
    You need some sort of "per turn" spell effects that will force enemy to take saves. And effect should be nasty enough so that DM will panic and use Legendary saves to succeed.
    Unless the target uses their reaction to try and identify what spell you're casting, it would have no way of knowing how nasty it is.
    Quote Originally Posted by MaxWilson View Post
    I've tallied up all the points for this thread, and consulted with the debate judges, and the verdict is clear: JoeJ wins the thread.

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    Dwarf in the Playground
     
    PaladinGuy

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    Default Re: Wizard schools that can bypass legendary resistance?

    I think diviner wizard is the answer for the (pure) wizard. Yes contagion and flesh to stone target the tough saves. But the creature still needs to burn through the resistances because if it doesn’t you can drop a 2 instead of its roll.

    Warlock 1/abjurer wizard X (pretty strong multi class because of armour of agathys, armour, shield, hex, hexblade curse, unlimited mage armour to replenish ward) , can put a hex on the critter, and then use bigby’s hand to grapple it while penalizing its strength checks.

    Of course if there’s a warlock or sorlock in the group they can put the hex and the diviner can bigby it up.

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    WolfInSheepsClothing

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    Default Re: Wizard schools that can bypass legendary resistance?

    Having a monk in the party is a good way to burn off the legendary resistance via Stunning Strike. Even better, a monk with fighter levels for Battlemaster maneuvers can subject the enemy to even more saves on each attack. A fighter 11 (battlebastard)/monk 9 (open hand) could hit a guy 3 times with an attack action, 3 times with action surge, then twice with flurry of blows. With 5 superiority dice and 8 ki points to spend, that's potentially 15 saves you're forcing on the other guy in one round of combat. Even if he holds back his legendary resistance and lets himself get proned, frightened, disarmed or whatever else, that's still 8 chances to stun. Pretty brutal.

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    MindFlayer

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    Default Re: Wizard schools that can bypass legendary resistance?

    If you want to bypass it:
    Necromancy - Raised undead minions don't care about Legendary Resistance.
    Conjuration - Summoned creatures don't care about Legendary Resistance.
    Transmutation - The fighter you buffed (or turned into a T-Rex) doesn't care about Legendary Resistance.

    You've also got any spells (including Cantrips) that use attack rolls in place of saves.

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    SolithKnightGuy

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    Default Re: Wizard schools that can bypass legendary resistance?

    Quote Originally Posted by JoeJ View Post
    Unless the target uses their reaction to try and identify what spell you're casting, it would have no way of knowing how nasty it is.
    Assuming you're using a variant rule from Xanathar's that most people don't. Most tables seem to do either A. Free Arcana checks or B. Everyone knows what's being cast. Both of which are far superior to Xanathar's rules in my eyes (and many others, though I'm not saying you're wrong if you like that rule, just pointing out that many don't and therefore won't use it.)

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    ElfPirate

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    Default Re: Wizard schools that can bypass legendary resistance?

    Quote Originally Posted by Galithar View Post
    Assuming you're using a variant rule from Xanathar's that most people don't. Most tables seem to do either A. Free Arcana checks or B. Everyone knows what's being cast. Both of which are far superior to Xanathar's rules in my eyes (and many others, though I'm not saying you're wrong if you like that rule, just pointing out that many don't and therefore won't use it.)
    Without the Xanathar's rule, the default would be there's no way to know until you can see the spell effect. Both your A and B turn illusionist wizard into a trap option.
    Quote Originally Posted by MaxWilson View Post
    I've tallied up all the points for this thread, and consulted with the debate judges, and the verdict is clear: JoeJ wins the thread.

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