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  1. - Top - End - #151
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    ElfRogueGirl

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    Default Re: Wait a minute, why did the ABD care that V killed her son?

    Quote Originally Posted by Goblin_Priest View Post
    There's no rules against multiclassing into PC classes. As the joke went in the early strips, regarding Elan ditching all the education of starting as a wizard by just multiclassing into it. Rogue, barbarian, bard, cleric, and/or wizard would all be pretty good choices for a farmer, for example, or just about any professional. Any class, including the other NPC classes, would, actually.

    A lvl 20 commoner is absurd. Commoner is basically the class for the untrained. An epic level commoner is basically a godly trained untrained person, who is godly good at absolutely nothing.
    Sure, there's no rule, but the average peasant isn't going to get rogue or barbarian training. The average peasant is going to work on his land all of his life. He doesn't have opportunities to take a different class.
    At best, he gets other NPC classes, such as expert if he manages to get a trade of his own or warrior if he joins the militia.

  2. - Top - End - #152
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    Default Re: Wait a minute, why did the ABD care that V killed her son?

    Quote Originally Posted by Resileaf View Post
    Sure, there's no rule, but the average peasant isn't going to get rogue or barbarian training. The average peasant is going to work on his land all of his life. He doesn't have opportunities to take a different class.
    At best, he gets other NPC classes, such as expert if he manages to get a trade of his own or warrior if he joins the militia.
    What "training"? You gain XP, you gain a level, you can put it in the class you want. "Training" is RP, not mechanical, unless you want to go by the starting age rules, then sorcerers, rogues, and barbarians are essentially untrained.

    I'm also not sure what land an urban commoner would be working.

    And besides, even expert would be a huge improvement over commoner. No matter what he does. He's a farmer? He'll want more skill points, for stuff like profession (farmer), crafts, handle animal, appraise, search/spot/listen, heal, knowledge, ride, sense motive, survival, use rope, for example.

    I'm not quite sure what a commoner does in a metropolis, though. But a farmer needs a lot of skills to be successful. Much more than the class skills they have, and the skill points they get. There'd be no reason not to dip at least in expert.
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  3. - Top - End - #153
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    Default Re: Wait a minute, why did the ABD care that V killed her son?

    Quote Originally Posted by Goblin_Priest View Post
    What "training"? You gain XP, you gain a level, you can put it in the class you want. "Training" is RP, not mechanical, unless you want to go by the starting age rules, then sorcerers, rogues, and barbarians are essentially untrained.

    I'm also not sure what land an urban commoner would be working.

    And besides, even expert would be a huge improvement over commoner. No matter what he does. He's a farmer? He'll want more skill points, for stuff like profession (farmer), crafts, handle animal, appraise, search/spot/listen, heal, knowledge, ride, sense motive, survival, use rope, for example.

    I'm not quite sure what a commoner does in a metropolis, though. But a farmer needs a lot of skills to be successful. Much more than the class skills they have, and the skill points they get. There'd be no reason not to dip at least in expert.
    So, if it's so easy to become barbarian or rogue, why would anyone decide to pick the commoner class?

  4. - Top - End - #154
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    Default Re: Wait a minute, why did the ABD care that V killed her son?

    Because most D&D settings aren't self-aware fourth-wall-breaking parody settings. And in the ones that are, the dirt farmers are proud of their dedication to mechanical uselessness.

  5. - Top - End - #155
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    Default Re: Wait a minute, why did the ABD care that V killed her son?

    Quote Originally Posted by Fyraltari View Post
    I'm starting to suspect which paladin of Shojo, paladinofshojo is. I've narrowed it down to two possibilites.
    This entire thread I had not been mentally parsing the OP's username, just reading them as "pala***jo." Now that I have seen your post it all makes sense

  6. - Top - End - #156
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    Default Re: Wait a minute, why did the ABD care that V killed her son?

    Quote Originally Posted by Goblin_Priest View Post
    What "training"? You gain XP, you gain a level, you can put it in the class you want. "Training" is RP, not mechanical
    Anyone who actually has the Commoner class is RP, not mechanical. You don't need townspeople.
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    Default Re: Wait a minute, why did the ABD care that V killed her son?

    Quote Originally Posted by Resileaf View Post
    So, if it's so easy to become barbarian or rogue, why would anyone decide to pick the commoner class?
    Did I not post earlier about the class gatekeeping role played by stats? I could've sworn I did.

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    Default Re: Wait a minute, why did the ABD care that V killed her son?

    I wonder if commoners gain xp based on how they roleplay.
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  9. - Top - End - #159
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    Default Re: Wait a minute, why did the ABD care that V killed her son?

    Quote Originally Posted by zimmerwald1915 View Post
    Did I not post earlier about the class gatekeeping role played by stats? I could've sworn I did.
    Mostly I'm confused by Goblin_Priest treating non-OotS settings as having OotS mechanics.

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    Default Re: Wait a minute, why did the ABD care that V killed her son?

    And that, kids, is why 3E D&D's attempts at realistically simulating the world fall flat. Though to be honest, that's more about people thinking it simulates anything than any actual attempt on its part. But the Commoner class is a good example of something that just has no reason to exist... plus some ideas about history that mostly come from Monty Python.
    Last edited by Morty; 2019-03-21 at 04:12 AM.
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    Default Re: Wait a minute, why did the ABD care that V killed her son?

    Quote Originally Posted by Vinyadan View Post
    I wonder if commoners gain xp based on how they roleplay.
    I'm now imagining this one D&D player who is playing by mail. He changes groups every time a group breaks up, but always manages to bring his character with him. Except, he isn't with the party going on adventures, because he wanted to play Farmville decades before it came out.

    So, he's been pencil-and-paper RPing a farmer for decades. His character is now so high-level he could wipe out any group of adventurers he wishes, conquer any country, slay the gods...

    ...but he doesn't, because if he did he'd miss lambing season, and he has a responsibility.

  12. - Top - End - #162
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    Default Re: Wait a minute, why did the ABD care that V killed her son?

    Quote Originally Posted by Goblin_Priest View Post
    There's no rules against multiclassing into PC classes. As the joke went in the early strips, regarding Elan ditching all the education of starting as a wizard by just multiclassing into it. Rogue, barbarian, bard, cleric, and/or wizard would all be pretty good choices for a farmer, for example, or just about any professional. Any class, including the other NPC classes, would, actually.

    A lvl 20 commoner is absurd. Commoner is basically the class for the untrained. An epic level commoner is basically a godly trained untrained person, who is godly good at absolutely nothing.
    Because they aren’t adventurers doesn’t mean they can’t be skilled at something - it just means they are able to cope with pain and suffering in combat (higher levels of hp are abstraction)
    A da Vinci or Mozart could be an epic commoner
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  13. - Top - End - #163
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    Default Re: Wait a minute, why did the ABD care that V killed her son?

    Quote Originally Posted by mjasghar View Post
    Because they aren’t adventurers doesn’t mean they can’t be skilled at something - it just means they are able to cope with pain and suffering in combat (higher levels of hp are abstraction)
    A da Vinci or Mozart could be an epic commoner
    There's an essay where some guy argues that Einstein was only a 4th or 5th-level Expert. The math checks out.
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  14. - Top - End - #164
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    Default Re: Wait a minute, why did the ABD care that V killed her son?

    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    Anyone who actually has the Commoner class is RP, not mechanical. You don't need townspeople.
    I have far less issues with people starting with a class according to their background, than people sticking to that class through their epic journey of life even if there is no reason whatsoever to do so.

    Up to level 5 or so, keeping with their NPC class, sure, sure. But the enormous amount of XP required to get to high levels implies the luxury of changing class. If PCs can do it, there's no reason NPCs can't. Because an epic-level NPC must have basically lived the PC life to get there, unless it's the kind of world that goes "YOU HARVESTED 1 LETTUCE HEAD! HURRAY, PLUS 500XP!". By RAW, the only thing I remember awarding XP is killing stuff. I can't find the rule for RP XP, but I seem to recall it's optional, at the DM's discretion.

    Quote Originally Posted by Resileaf View Post
    Mostly I'm confused by Goblin_Priest treating non-OotS settings as having OotS mechanics.
    Funny, I thought we were talking about D&D 3.5? I cited OotS once, and I did so because it was making a gag specifically of the D&D mechanics being referred to, not it's own original mechanics.
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  15. - Top - End - #165
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    Default Re: Wait a minute, why did the ABD care that V killed her son?

    Quote Originally Posted by Goblin_Priest View Post
    I have far less issues with people starting with a class according to their background, than people sticking to that class through their epic journey of life even if there is no reason whatsoever to do so.

    Up to level 5 or so, keeping with their NPC class, sure, sure. But the enormous amount of XP required to get to high levels implies the luxury of changing class. If PCs can do it, there's no reason NPCs can't. Because an epic-level NPC must have basically lived the PC life to get there, unless it's the kind of world that goes "YOU HARVESTED 1 LETTUCE HEAD! HURRAY, PLUS 500XP!". By RAW, the only thing I remember awarding XP is killing stuff. I can't find the rule for RP XP, but I seem to recall it's optional, at the DM's discretion.



    Funny, I thought we were talking about D&D 3.5? I cited OotS once, and I did so because it was making a gag specifically of the D&D mechanics being referred to, not it's own original mechanics.
    No, he’s referring to the fact that most D&D settings aren’t self-aware towards the rules. In D&D, “Classes” are a rule construct, not a known fact. Most priests are not Clerics, in the game-mechanical sense, and you actually need training to join a class. In OOTS, you can just declare “I want to multiclass to Cleric” and, at your next level, automatically become one, no training required...Beceause it’s a PARODY.

  16. - Top - End - #166
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    DruidGirl

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    Default Re: Wait a minute, why did the ABD care that V killed her son?

    Quote Originally Posted by Rodin View Post
    I'm now imagining this one D&D player who is playing by mail. He changes groups every time a group breaks up, but always manages to bring his character with him. Except, he isn't with the party going on adventures, because he wanted to play Farmville decades before it came out.

    So, he's been pencil-and-paper RPing a farmer for decades. His character is now so high-level he could wipe out any group of adventurers he wishes, conquer any country, slay the gods...

    ...but he doesn't, because if he did he'd miss lambing season, and he has a responsibility.
    Then, someday, a new player joins his group, and before anyone can tell the new player that the farmer at whose house the adventurers are guests is a PC, the new player decides to molest the farmers' daughter and set fire to the lambing shed, because he can and he's that kind of player.

    That would be interesting to watch.


    Commoners are the real oppressed class of DnD, are they? Goblins have it bad, but the commoners are the ones whose lives really suck. I suppose the groups overlap, but it might have been clever of the goblins to team up with those poor people who can be farmers for decades and never get any good at it, all the while thieves get better at lockpicking by fighting monsters.
    Last edited by Themrys; 2019-03-21 at 09:19 AM.

  17. - Top - End - #167
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    Default Re: Wait a minute, why did the ABD care that V killed her son?

    By RAW, "killing stuff" doesn't award XP. "Overcoming challenges" does: can be killing, can be diplomacy, can be disarming a trap without ever interacting with another living creature.
    Quote Originally Posted by Morty View Post
    And that, kids, is why 3E D&D's attempts at realistically simulating the world fall flat. Though to be honest, that's more about people thinking it simulates anything than any actual attempt on its part. But the Commoner class is a good example of something that just has no reason to exist... plus some ideas about history that mostly come from Monty Python.
    I think it's more:

    "Now that everyone has at least one level, we need a class for those people who were Normal Men* in Basic and 0th-level fighters in 2ed. Let's call it Commoner."
    "Capped at first level?"
    "Nah, that would be an unjustifiable specific rule. No DM's going to give those people more than one hit die. Maybe two, if they want exceptionally tough mooks for some reason."
    "Okay. I sure hope the people who work on the new Dungeon Master's Guide think enough not to create a table which suggests epic-level commoners."

    *Including the women.
    Last edited by Kish; 2019-03-21 at 09:43 AM.

  18. - Top - End - #168
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    Default Re: Wait a minute, why did the ABD care that V killed her son?

    Quote Originally Posted by Themrys View Post
    I suppose the groups overlap, but it might have been clever of the goblins to team up with those poor people who can be farmers for decades and never get any good at it, all the while thieves get better at lockpicking by fighting monsters.
    Oy! You got your class politics in a story about racism! Y'can't do that!

  19. - Top - End - #169
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    Default Re: Wait a minute, why did the ABD care that V killed her son?

    Quote Originally Posted by zimmerwald1915 View Post
    Oy! You got your class politics in a story about racism! Y'can't do that!
    You got your story about racism in my class politics!
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    Default Re: Wait a minute, why did the ABD care that V killed her son?

    Quote Originally Posted by woweedd View Post
    No, he’s referring to the fact that most D&D settings aren’t self-aware towards the rules. In D&D, “Classes” are a rule construct, not a known fact. Most priests are not Clerics, in the game-mechanical sense, and you actually need training to join a class. In OOTS, you can just declare “I want to multiclass to Cleric” and, at your next level, automatically become one, no training required...Beceause it’s a PARODY.
    I don't think the core rulebooks actually say this, though I haven't read the old 3.5 books in a while. The point about priests not necessarily being cleric might be mentioned, that does sound familiar, but it's also irrelevant to the issue at hand. Other than there's nothing in RAW that says you can't just do it, if you decided to declare "I want to multiclass to cleric".

    Also, how far exactly do you think the lack of self-awareness goes, in standard D&D settings (Greyhawk / Forgotten Realms)? I seem to remember people being specifically called out by class. And class abilities being mentioned. There comes a point where the game is not a real world simulation, and is governed by a number of universal rules, which one would need to be incredibly oblivious to not become aware of.
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    Default Re: Wait a minute, why did the ABD care that V killed her son?

    Quote Originally Posted by Morty View Post
    And that, kids, is why 3E D&D's attempts at realistically simulating the world fall flat. Though to be honest, that's more about people thinking it simulates anything than any actual attempt on its part. But the Commoner class is a good example of something that just has no reason to exist... plus some ideas about history that mostly come from Monty Python.
    Yeah, since I did want my rules to at least come closer to simulating a world when I was playing 3.x, I ditched all the 3.x NPC classes and replaced with classes that were actually BETTER for a non-adventuring NPC than the PC classes.

    The new classes were in my houserules, and no PC ever touched them, because they were substantially weaker for an adventurer, but they made a lot more sense in setting:

    Specialist replaced commoner, and effectively every level gave you a +1 to one skill ABOVE ranks and feats (there were some additional benefits, but that was the big one). If you wanted to earn a living via profession, craft, or perform it really was the best choice.

    Generalist replaced expert, and got all skills as class skills and 8 skill points a level and an occasional bonus feat that could only be used on skill focus or the +2/+2 feats (and added a +2 feat for any skill that didn't have a +2/+2 feat).

    Warrior mostly got an upgrade so it could perform ANY of its listed roles (tribal hunter, with no survival or move silently; part time militia man, with no profession or craft; town guard or watch, with no sense motive, spot, listen, or gather information). Seriously, I use the warrior class existing and going unchanged between 3.0 and 3.5 as my proof that WotC paid absolutely no attention whatsoever to any attempt to simulate anything with NPC classes. The class is totally non-functional at everything it's supposed to be used to model.

    Aristocrat and Adept were more complicated, but followed the same sort of idea. Make a class that a character in the class might actually take level 2 in it, because it WORKS for what he's actually doing.

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    Default Re: Wait a minute, why did the ABD care that V killed her son?

    Quote Originally Posted by Doug Lampert View Post
    Yeah, since I did want my rules to at least come closer to simulating a world when I was playing 3.x, I ditched all the 3.x NPC classes and replaced with classes that were actually BETTER for a non-adventuring NPC than the PC classes.

    The new classes were in my houserules, and no PC ever touched them, because they were substantially weaker for an adventurer, but they made a lot more sense in setting:

    Specialist replaced commoner, and effectively every level gave you a +1 to one skill ABOVE ranks and feats (there were some additional benefits, but that was the big one). If you wanted to earn a living via profession, craft, or perform it really was the best choice.

    Generalist replaced expert, and got all skills as class skills and 8 skill points a level and an occasional bonus feat that could only be used on skill focus or the +2/+2 feats (and added a +2 feat for any skill that didn't have a +2/+2 feat).

    Warrior mostly got an upgrade so it could perform ANY of its listed roles (tribal hunter, with no survival or move silently; part time militia man, with no profession or craft; town guard or watch, with no sense motive, spot, listen, or gather information). Seriously, I use the warrior class existing and going unchanged between 3.0 and 3.5 as my proof that WotC paid absolutely no attention whatsoever to any attempt to simulate anything with NPC classes. The class is totally non-functional at everything it's supposed to be used to model.

    Aristocrat and Adept were more complicated, but followed the same sort of idea. Make a class that a character in the class might actually take level 2 in it, because it WORKS for what he's actually doing.
    I don't see any real point in giving class levels to NPCs you're not supposed to engage in combat, period. The D&D class and level system was made for adventuring PCs and it breaks apart very quickly outside of it. Non-combatant NPCs should just get appropriate skill ranks in whatever the PCs are likely to engage them in.
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    Default Re: Wait a minute, why did the ABD care that V killed her son?

    Quote Originally Posted by Doug Lampert View Post
    Yeah, since I did want my rules to at least come closer to simulating a world when I was playing 3.x, I ditched all the 3.x NPC classes and replaced with classes that were actually BETTER for a non-adventuring NPC than the PC classes.

    The new classes were in my houserules, and no PC ever touched them, because they were substantially weaker for an adventurer, but they made a lot more sense in setting:

    Specialist replaced commoner, and effectively every level gave you a +1 to one skill ABOVE ranks and feats (there were some additional benefits, but that was the big one). If you wanted to earn a living via profession, craft, or perform it really was the best choice.

    Generalist replaced expert, and got all skills as class skills and 8 skill points a level and an occasional bonus feat that could only be used on skill focus or the +2/+2 feats (and added a +2 feat for any skill that didn't have a +2/+2 feat).

    Warrior mostly got an upgrade so it could perform ANY of its listed roles (tribal hunter, with no survival or move silently; part time militia man, with no profession or craft; town guard or watch, with no sense motive, spot, listen, or gather information). Seriously, I use the warrior class existing and going unchanged between 3.0 and 3.5 as my proof that WotC paid absolutely no attention whatsoever to any attempt to simulate anything with NPC classes. The class is totally non-functional at everything it's supposed to be used to model.

    Aristocrat and Adept were more complicated, but followed the same sort of idea. Make a class that a character in the class might actually take level 2 in it, because it WORKS for what he's actually doing.
    Seems like a lot of work for little gain. XD

    (mind you, I always do things that are a lot of work for little gain)
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    Default Re: Wait a minute, why did the ABD care that V killed her son?

    Quote Originally Posted by Goblin_Priest View Post
    Seems like a lot of work for little gain. XD

    (mind you, I always do things that are a lot of work for little gain)
    Not a lot of work. Maybe 5 pages of rules and ~4 hours of thinking and typing (mostly thinking), and I had adventure hooks from the Adept write-up as it worked well for monsters, and the NPC warrior type henchmen worked better with the rules.

    I agree that pretty much any other edition's "just assign numbers" for NPCs works a LOT better. Fourth edition even gave a very good set of guidelines as to what sorts of numbers to assign.

    But one of the central conceits of 3.x is the idea that the NPCs and PCs are playing by the same rules and designed by the same rules (carefully does not look at when a character qualifies for epic feats) and this was before I realized the extent to which any simulationism in the 3.x rules was purely smoke and mirrors.

    The DMG demographics that GIVE you epic level commoners are part of the same "we never actually use this in our campaigns and it doesn't actually work" sort of window dressing. Does anyone think that if WotC designers had been using a table that gave most cities a level 21+ commoner in their home campaign that the rules would have STAYED that way between editions? Similarly, if they'd been using the random community generator for anything they might have noticed that D&D land is (much) more heavily urbanized than the modern USA. Hint: 1% of communities having 25,000+ adults does not mean only 1% of adults live in such communities. Not even close.

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    Default Re: Wait a minute, why did the ABD care that V killed her son?

    The stats of the plebes is just about never relevant in our games, so that's 5 hours for mechanics that would never actually see the light of day, though. Even when I GMed, and I like lower-level adventures and made extensive homebrew rules for my world, I was fairly content just slapping a level of warrior on the mooks, and one for few levels of PC classes on the elite troops.
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    Default Re: Wait a minute, why did the ABD care that V killed her son?

    Quote Originally Posted by Goblin_Priest View Post
    The stats of the plebes is just about never relevant in our games, so that's 5 hours for mechanics that would never actually see the light of day, though. Even when I GMed, and I like lower-level adventures and made extensive homebrew rules for my world, I was fairly content just slapping a level of warrior on the mooks, and one for few levels of PC classes on the elite troops.
    You've never been in a game where an NPC guard with sense motive and perception was needed? Hell, I had to stat up elite castle guards just to make a Chaotic Neutral Barbarian stand in the courtyard and wait to meet someone.

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    Default Re: Wait a minute, why did the ABD care that V killed her son?

    Quote Originally Posted by Riftwolf View Post
    You've never been in a game where an NPC guard with sense motive and perception was needed? Hell, I had to stat up elite castle guards just to make a Chaotic Neutral Barbarian stand in the courtyard and wait to meet someone.
    Figuring out appropriate modifiers for sense motive or perception doesn't require giving them an entire stat blocks, levels and all.
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  28. - Top - End - #178
    Bugbear in the Playground
    Join Date
    Sep 2015

    Default Re: Wait a minute, why did the ABD care that V killed her son?

    Quote Originally Posted by Morty View Post
    Figuring out appropriate modifiers for sense motive or perception doesn't require giving them an entire stat blocks, levels and all.
    Agreed.

    To be honest, I had made a bunch of pre-made NPC stats for the most common/likely foes, which I amply re-used, but a random dude they cross where I need to roll a check? He'll probably have -2 to +6 modifier, which I'd just wing on the spot.

    I really don't see the point of statting up the castle guards unless you had reason to believe the barbarian was going to significantly interact (see: fight) with them.
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  29. - Top - End - #179
    Dwarf in the Playground
     
    Goblin

    Join Date
    Nov 2012
    Location
    Waterworld

    Default Re: Wait a minute, why did the ABD care that V killed her son?

    There's also the old secret statblock trick where anyone whose stats are unlikely to matter reuses the same standard statblock.
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  30. - Top - End - #180
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    Lizardfolk

    Join Date
    Feb 2017

    Default Re: Wait a minute, why did the ABD care that V killed her son?

    Quote Originally Posted by Goblin_Priest View Post

    I really don't see the point of statting up the castle guards unless you had reason to believe the barbarian was going to significantly interact (see: fight) with them.
    You clearly didn't know this Barbarian. When the party was asked to wait to see the guard captain to take a job, said barbarian decided to single handedly storm the castle. And got pretty far into it. Thinking about it, I probably should've just let him crush jewelled thrones beneath his sandled feet.

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