What would it take to make *real* supers?

[Imbalance]

It honestly sounds like you'd be happiest just taking HeroClix and working it into a campaign. I have played matches that either reflected a book panel for panel or could have served as the film treatment's storyboard without any attempt to rp - it seriously just felt that way. RPG fans seem to want to shun it because it's "too kiddy" or "not deep enough" or doesn't require a ton of crunchy rulebooks and charts, but that's the feature that makes the combat dial system so adaptable. Plus, the list of characters is mind boggling, not just for DC and Marvel, but for an ever-expanding list of licensed IP. Where else are you going to find pre-made stats under the same system for an evil team-up of Joker, Shredder, Sarumon, and Ryu to take on Spock, Silver Surfer, and Gypsy Danger?

[Quellian-dyrae]

Honestly, thinking about it some more, most of those things were in the range of 80ish or fewer PP for M&M. Actually...82 PP is probably sufficient.

Moving the planet was Strength 78. Flight 1 adds 2. Movement 1 (Space Travel) for actual astronomical speeds in space adds another 2. So 82 total. I suppose you'd also need Immunity 10 (Life Support) - or at least Immunity 4 (Suffocation from Vacuum, Vacuum Environment, Radiation Environment, Cold Environment) - to survive in space for any length of time, but eh you could probably make do with a high Fortitude for short trips.

Teleporting the planet would be Teleport 1 (Increased Mass 78), Movement 1 (Space Travel). Also 82. Dimension shifting the whole planet could be done for 82 with Dimensional Travel 2 with Increased Mass 78 (though it'd take another rank of Dimensional Travel if you want any dimension, but hey slap Activation 2 on it and you're golden).

The telepathically affecting the whole planet thing was 7/rank +12 for the sense. 82 for a rank 10 power.

A basic Create 33 is 66 points, so even without flaws it's fine.

And of course the global mass communication was a paltry 24.

Now, the afflicting the whole world thing uses something that's just hard-broken no matter what your level and what system you're in - being able to attack enemies in total safety from the comfort of your own home just doesn't work in an RPG period. So yeah, I think that sort of thing is always best reserved for sheer GM Fiat type stuff.

The rest of them...I mean, in my games, I use a "sanity limit" of PL+10 for power ranks that aren't otherwise PL-limited, but that's largely because I don't want this kind of raw astronomical scale stuff. When I threw a meteor at my players, sure I expected them to push it out of the way, but not as a single standard action, you know? But that doesn't mean these things are inherently broken. While extreme, most of them are rather niche. The difference between Power Lifting 20 and Power Lifting 78 in most situations in most games will be precisely zero.

A character could, in theory, make an 82 point Array, give it nine dynamic APs and leave the base slot non-dynamic, for an even 100 PP. If you're a PL 10 character, that leaves just enough to get your defenses to PL. You'd have squat for skills and advantages (technically you can buy them in your array, but you shouldn't). That's a larger array in both power and APs than I feel is reasonable; I tend to go with roughly 3-4 PP/PL, up to five APs (6 slots total), as my rule of thumb for reasonable arrays. With a bit of leeway on slots at higher PLs, say another one per 2 PL above 10. But hey, if you're in a group that's okay with that level of raw power and versatility, it's doable on a starter budget and, while I'd call it clearly overpowered, it's not necessarily game-breaking. (And you can always have fewer slots, I just went there because hey even hundred).

But that's at PL 10, which is really kinda meant to be a typical "city-scale" hero. At PL 15, where you're talking "world-class" heroes, you've got 35 PL left assuming all defenses at PL, enough to snag a decent set of say two skills at +15, two more at +10 (or one more at +20), and fifteen advantages. The array's still out of bounds by my standards, but not as egregiously, clocking in at somewhere over 5/rank and still a slot or two high. Honestly it'd probably be fine in a high-power game as long as you're not optimizing the slots much.

And at PL 20, which is intended to be cosmic scale...well, what do you know, 82 PP comes in at just over 4/rank, and ten slots is actually one below what I'd call the reasonable cap. You'll be spending 100 PP on defenses and probably want another 10 on attack bonus so your array's combat powers can actually be 4/rank affairs. That leaves 90, enough for a solid selection of skills, advantages, and maybe even some supplemental powers outside of the array.

Sooo...yeah, at my personal balance threshold and aside from my PL+10 max rank sanity limit (which to be fair I could see myself waiving for a PL 20 game), M&M does everything you want at PL 20, precisely where its general description of levels says it should.

With regards to balance in general, in addition to the above, having the group at generally the same level of competence makes things much easier on the GM. If you know roughly how powerful everyone is, it's much easier to design challenges that hit that "difficult but winnable" sweet spot and allow everyone to participate. It's one of the reasons I'm always baffled when I see an M&M GM tell their players not to worry about hitting their PL caps, or that they outright shouldn't unless they have a good reason for it. Why would you give yourself the headache of trying to design challenges for the equivalent of a PL 10, a PL 8, a PL 5, and a PL 3?

I do agree that in the general sense, it's better to have powerful allies than not. And if someone intentionally wants to play a less powerful character - for the RP, for a growth story arc, because they want to play a dedicated support build or optimize for something other than combat, whatever - that's totally fine. If a game gets going and half the players want to play awesome fantasy heroes and the other half are really digging the appeal of physically unimposing civilians thrust into peril from their previously-idyllic lives, needing to depend on their more powerful companions for protection and rely on cleverness rather than mechanical potency to contribute, by all means Lord of the Rings it up. But it's another story when most of the group is trying to play their Hobbits of the Shire game and one player rolls up with Aragorn.

[penak]

subscribed, this seems like a very interesting thread

[John Campbell]

So, systems I've played that have superheroes... Hmmm... I'm senile, and reserve the right to add to this later, but... Heroes/Champions, Mutants & Masterminds, Heroes & Heroins, Marvel facerip, Marvel (not facerip), Gurps, Rifts, and, given that one episode with the previous Doctor, I suppose I need add Dr. Who. Plus homebrew. And, this one time, someone played a Marauder who thought he was a superhero, so WoD M:tA (that character actually felt more like a superhero than most "superhero" characters, actually).

Of course, if there's multiple editions of any of these systems, assume that I'm only familiar with the "worst" version.

For example, although I own M&M (somewhere), I'm not remotely familiar with half of those tricks. Although I will say, 5% of normal humans just ignoring Professor X's ability represent an epic failure of the system to instantiate the character.

It's a fundamental problem with d20 systems. Either you treat the 1 and 20 as magic numbers, and critical success/critical failure happen way too often, or you don't and it's way too easy to engineer checks so that the die literally does not matter (e.g. 3.5 skills). It's one of the reasons multi-die systems are better.

That said, like I mentioned before, there are extras you can add to the power to make it more effective. Slap on Increased Duration (+1 PP/rank) a couple of times to turn Affliction from an Instant to Sustained, so once initiated you can keep it going from turn to turn with just a Free Action, and give it Cumulative (+1 PP/rank) and Progressive (+2 PP/rank), so failures pile up and successful saves just mean "try again next turn". People will always roll 20s, but the number that continue to roll 20s every turn under your effortlessly ongoing assault will be diminishingly small. Keep it up for a few rounds, and you may not have literally everybody, but the exceptions will be a tiny fraction of a percent, and getting fewer and fewer every round.

Another thing that I'll admit had me biased is where the systems have the characters normally start, and how quickly (slowly) they advance. It doesn't matter if the system theoretically let's you push the planet, if you have to play for 40 years to get to that point!

So, um, did you miss the part where I pointed out that what it takes to push the planet in M&M/DCA is only a little more than half of a typical PL 10 starting character's PP allowance, and doesn't even break the PL caps?

FASERIP is the only other supers system I'm really familiar with (well, Savage Worlds Supers, but Savage Worlds is pushing its limits with Badass Normals, and is woefully inadequate for actual supers), and it's infamous for its random character generation system that can give you Thor and Aunt May in the same party. I rolled a character with that system once who could, out of the box, build laser weapons that did Class 3000 damage.

True, but in some pre-Crisis stories it doesn't seem like he's even breaking a sweat when he moves planets around. Superman's power level seems to vary between different writers to an even greater degree than most comic characters, although maybe not as much as the Spectre's.

Like I said above, Clark is statted in DCA at PL 15 and 289 PP. He's powerful, but not nearly the ridonkulousness of Silver Age Superman. Seems stronger than TV Supergirl, but then I've been complaining about her not being super enough. (It's a fine line with Kryptonians, showing off how powerful they are while not letting them just roflstomp all opposition. The Flash has a similar problem, where Barry should really just speedblitz anything that's not another speedster before they can even begin to react, but he doesn't because that would mean the show wouldn't be long enough to run commercials.)

Spectre's statted at PL 18 and 610(!) PP, with a note that he's sometimes as low as PL 12 (with guidelines for how to downgrade him to that), and sometimes just PL X, which is "This is not a character; this is a plot device. It doesn't have stats; it does whatever the GM wants it to, however the GM wants it to."

[SimonMoon6]

Do you actually WANT to play Superman? Because, face it, what actually challenges him?

It depends. What do you mean by "Superman"? If you mean the Golden Age Superman, pretty much any mad scientist with a ray gun. The post-Crisis Superman is tough, but not too tough; even a mere nuclear bomb can harm him (enough to knock him out, but not kill him). It's only really the pre-Crisis Silver/Bronze Age Superman that has the crazy power level. But we can't just call him "Superman" because someone might think of the George Reeves Superman (who feels a need to dodge when a gun is thrown at him) or some other lesser Superman. Superman isn't one character, he's a million characters.

But what challenges the Silver/Bronze Age Superman? Lots of things. First of all, anyone with kryptonite. Second, anybody with any of his many many other weaknesses. Magic is a commonly appearing weakness. But he's also vulnerable to red sun radiation, in that it removes all or some of his powers (depending on the writer). Also, gravity powers can cause him issues, since many of his powers come from the lesser gravity of Earth.

But the thing is, if you're trying to challenge Superman physically, you're going about things the wrong way. You're not going to beat Superman physically... at least not normally. Sure, you can have him fight the Phantom Zone villains (or any other Kryptonians) and they can overpower him with numbers, since they are physically his equals. And people like Validus or the Galactic Golem are MORE powerful physically than Superman himself, so they can beat him up, if you really need to find a way to beat him up. But... that's not how you challenge him. You challenge his intellect. Ever notice that most of Superman's classic (pre-Crisis) villains are just smart guys? Lex Luthor, Toyman, Puzzler, Prankster... none of them can fight Superman physically. Even Brainiac is all about having a superior intellect, even if he does possess a unique ability in that he has a force field that not even Superman can penetrate. The point is that Superman's enemies are smart not strong because THAT is how you challenge him. Or you have them invent a gadget that does something uniquely interesting (like turning Superman into a baby, or making Superman lose control of his powers or something)... but not anything that simply causes Superman to "lose a lot of hit points".

Only an idiotic writer would try to come up with *physically* challenging opponents for Superman (like dumb Doomsday).

And, moreover, how would the other players feel if you're playing Superman?

They'd probably feel GREAT since this means that they too can play awesomely powerful characters that they wouldn't get to play in other games.

[JoeJ]

But in regard to "not breaking a sweat," I'm not completely convinced that spending Hero Points to increase a character's abilities temporarily (whether with Dice Actions or pushing) necessarily involves the character straining. To my mind, these expenditures of Hero Points can sometimes simply explain these inconsistencies that often happen. (Which is another reason why the DC Heroes RPG is one of the best games ever for modeling superheroes: it allows for the inconsistencies seen in the comics to play out in a game.)

To push a Strength of 50 up to 100 for 4 seconds he'd have to spend 150 hero points, not counting any that were added before the roll (and since he'd have to roll at least a 75 without spending hp, I don't see that as happening except as a complete fluke). I'm okay with saying that some pre-crisis writers had Superman's strength up in the 70-80 range. (And much more recently, All Star Superman had it even higher).

Of course, if you want to raise his Strength and Body from 50/40 to 75/60, everything still works. For consistency you'd need to increase the powers of some of the other characters as well, but the game still works just fine at that level.

... I can see how what I posted could be read that way. That wasn't quite what I meant.

What I meant was a double-meaning, for which your interpretation is an unintended third.

One thing I meant was, I want a system that can accurately model the feats of actual comic book / movie superheroes. "Real" here means "published".

The other thing I meant was, "really, really super - the superest of the super". Your examples certainly aren't the superest of the super.

1st edition DC Heroes included what I believe was the entire JLA (circa 1985) as playable characters. They may not be the most super heroes to ever appear in any comic, but some of them are a lot closer to the top end of that than they are to the bottom.

[SimonMoon6]

It honestly sounds like you'd be happiest just taking HeroClix and working it into a campaign. I have played matches that either reflected a book panel for panel or could have served as the film treatment's storyboard without any attempt to rp - it seriously just felt that way.

No... just no. As much as I enjoy Heroclix as a game... it's just not a comic book simulator.

The Joker can move just as far as the Flash on a map (depending on the versions of Joker and Flash). That's just not right.

There's a version of Superman who isn't strong enough to break down a wall. In that same set, there is a version of Batman who can break down a wall with his bare hands. But Superman just isn't strong enough.

Heroclix is an interesting game and has many good things going for it, but it is the WORST at trying to simulate comics. Want to have an army of non-powered guys with guns and knives take down Superman? You can do it in Heroclix... but you shouldn't be able to. That's just not comic accurate at all. Anybody with any kind of bladed weapon can possibly do 6 damage; Superman can resist maybe 2 of that damage. No Superman has more than 11 clicks of life. So, with three (admittedly lucky) attacks with a mere knife, Superman might be dead (well, "KO'd" technically). That... that's what you suggest as simulating comic book fights?

No, just no.

[Lucas Yew]

Subscribing to see where this philosophical debate goes to...

P.S. I support the pro-"real"-super side, for now (as an avid "simulationist").

[Imbalance]

No... just no. As much as I enjoy Heroclix as a game... it's just not a comic book simulator.

The Joker can move just as far as the Flash on a map (depending on the versions of Joker and Flash). That's just not right.

There's a version of Superman who isn't strong enough to break down a wall. In that same set, there is a version of Batman who can break down a wall with his bare hands. But Superman just isn't strong enough.

Heroclix is an interesting game and has many good things going for it, but it is the WORST at trying to simulate comics. Want to have an army of non-powered guys with guns and knives take down Superman? You can do it in Heroclix... but you shouldn't be able to. That's just not comic accurate at all. Anybody with any kind of bladed weapon can possibly do 6 damage; Superman can resist maybe 2 of that damage. No Superman has more than 11 clicks of life. So, with three (admittedly lucky) attacks with a mere knife, Superman might be dead (well, "KO'd" technically). That... that's what you suggest as simulating comic book fights?

No, just no.

I'm not calling HeroClix a simulator, but I am saying that as a loose baseline it can land itself remarkably close to the source material. Folks have made decent rp campaigns with minor tweaks. If you're looking at the stats as literally as your example (and are using the phrase "comic accurate" with a straight face), then no, it won't work. But if you take it with the same grain of salt that allows you to accept Hulk and Thor restrained by a tiny bolt on an alien world, then the potential becomes more apparent. Suddenly Joker's movement advantage isn't about speed, Batman breaking a wall that Supes won't isn't about power, and Supes losing to a street gang has nothing to do with their knives, but a story about how that could happen may take shape.

Have you and I had this same discussion before on Realms?

[Jay R]

... I can see how what I posted could be read that way. That wasn't quite what I meant.

What I meant was a double-meaning, for which your interpretation is an unintended third.

OK, good. We're going back over things until we actually communicate. That's how the internet works at its best.

One thing I meant was, I want a system that can accurately model the feats of actual comic book / movie superheroes. "Real" here means "published".The other thing I meant was, "really, really super - the superest of the super". Your examples certainly aren't the superest of the super.

I want a system that will model all published superheroes - and allow players to play PCs equivalent to all such superheroes, not just the least super of the superheroes.

Clearer?

Then congratulations. As I documented above, Champions can do this. As I also documented, most GMs won't allow it, because they can't write good scenarios for it.

I once played a Superman-like character with levels of strength with varying Endurance cost. The result was a character who could use higher-than-most-heroes level strength all day without breaking a sweat, a higher level all day while using up his Endurance at the same rate he regained it, and mountain-lifting strength at a high Endurance cost that he could only do once or twice a day. [He only used his highest level of Strength once, against a large, powerful robot, which he demolished with one punch of 44d6 damage.]

If I ever have a cosmic-level game idea, I'll allow cosmic-level characters. I won't do it normally, for the same reason I won't allow 20th level D&D characters in a game aimed at first levels. But the rules certainly make it possible.

Now, as to your other points... Well, insert obligatory "I've played in a game with (figurative) Thor and a (literal) sentient potted plant - I was the potted plant" reference.

Now that that's out of the way, yes, you absolutely can have absolute power disparity and still have a fun game - if you have the right group. "Balance" and "Fun" are not synonyms.

That said, nothing in this thread should indicate to you that I have any intention of producing unbalanced superheroes. To not go down this wormhole, feel free to assume that I'm only discussing balanced high-end, world-altering superheroes.

OK. The problem is designing scenarios that can challenge such characters and allow them to use all their powers. In the best comic stories of the Silver Age Superman, he did not move planets, and in fact, wasn't challenged physically. We all knew he could beat Luthor with the flick of his little finger; the challenge was to find Luthor in time to :
a. save Lois Lane,
b. stop the tidal wave
c. prove the innocence of the man on death row,
etc.
The fight scene wasn't a fight scene; it was just Superman finding Lex's lair and nabbing him. The real climax was putting the clues together.

But most players with planet-moving power levels want to move a planet. And most gamers want the fight scene to matter. So games are usually run with power levels in which the fight scene really matters, and planets aren't moved.

But the system will allow any power level.

[John Campbell]

Oh, and it's worth noting that at least one edition of DC Heroes had published stats for Doctor Manhattan.

[Mechalich]

Then congratulations. As I documented above, Champions can do this. As I also documented, most GMs won't allow it, because they can't write good scenarios for it.

Yep. All comics-based superhero universes involve massive character balance issues that are resolved on the page (or the screen) only through very judicious management of who-targets-who and sometimes outright ignoring the amount of damage a given attack should do (I recall Lobo landing a clean hit on Nightwing in the most recent season of Young Justice that somehow didn't even break any bones). The minute you try to bring that sort of thing into a game you're forcing the GM to juggle every encounter in the same way an actual comic book writer must but with no direct control over the narrative.

At that point the system may actually be more of an impediment than a support and you might as well run your supers game freeform. The GM is actually on much stronger grounds to say 'no, you can't do that' in a freeform scenario than in one with rules because it's easier to proclaim fiat when you don't have to overrule another source at the same time.

But most players with planet-moving power levels want to move a planet. And most gamers want the fight scene to matter. So games are usually run with power levels in which the fight scene really matters, and planets aren't moved.

Worse, most players given a planet-moving power will realize that they can now make any problem currently located on Planet X by throwing said planet into it's sun and will implement said xenocidal tactic with a level of gusto that would make Freiza (who's not exactly unfamiliar with that move) blanch.

[SimonMoon6]

Since we're on the topic of "How do you design adventures for a team of Angel Summoner and BMX Bandit", I'll mention some experience I've had in the past. At one point, I was running a superhero game in Mayfair's DC Heroes system. A new player joined and I helped him build his character, but I accidentally helped him make a ridiculously powerful character, since I didn't realize just how insane the Gravity Increase power could be. So, I had to think: how did actual comic book writers deal with the same problem? How do you balance Superman with Batman? (Kryptonite? Oh, that doesn't help me since this PC had no weaknesses.) How do you balance the Justice Society's adventures when you have the god-like Spectre alongside "ordinary guys with a small gimmick" like Sandman, the Al Pratt Atom, and Doctor Mid-Nite?

And I thought about the JLA/JSA crossover where Anti-Matter Man showed up. The rest of the teams had to deal with less powerful threats, while the Spectre had to fight the cosmically powerful Anti-Matter Man.

So, for example, in one adventure, I wanted the heroes to fight Aquaman's arch-enemy, Ocean Master, with his new bag of magical tricks. But the new PC would crush him instantly. So, I added an extra threat, a giant squid (with extra stuff going for him), that would be a decent threat for the overpowered PC. It's just a matter of making sure everyone has something on their own level to deal with.

Sure, the OP PC could've ignored the squid to fight Ocean Master, but then the squid would've killed everyone else. So, it worked.

[Beleriphon]

Oh, and it's worth noting that at least one edition of DC Heroes had published stats for Doctor Manhattan.

M&M does as well: Power Level X - This being can do as they please. That's it, they're NPC in the vein of Mxyzptlk. They are plot devices that talk at you.

[SimonMoon6]

I'm not calling HeroClix a simulator, but I am saying that as a loose baseline it can land itself remarkably close to the source material. Folks have made decent rp campaigns with minor tweaks. If you're looking at the stats as literally as your example (and are using the phrase "comic accurate" with a straight face), then no, it won't work. But if you take it with the same grain of salt that allows you to accept Hulk and Thor restrained by a tiny bolt on an alien world, then the potential becomes more apparent. Suddenly Joker's movement advantage isn't about speed, Batman breaking a wall that Supes won't isn't about power, and Supes losing to a street gang has nothing to do with their knives, but a story about how that could happen may take shape.

Have you and I had this same discussion before on Realms?

Quite possibly. But I feel like what you're saying is merely a variant of the Oberoni Fallacy, along the lines of "The game isn't bad because you can reimagine it to be different."

Regardless, I think Heroclix is absolutely terrible at what this particular thread is about. The original poster was asking for games that would let one represent the actual awesome power level of superheroes. Heroclix does not do this. Heroclix is designed to be a game where guys with knives can slaughter cosmic entities by the dozen. That's not what the original poster was asking for. Heroclix does not let characters like Superman be at their uppermost level of awesomeness. Heroclix NEVER lets characters like this be powerful. And that's by design, so that the nobodies of the world can defeat every other character, no matter how powerful. There is no version of Superman in Heroclix that is so invulnerable that he is immune to being stabbed by knives. Superman can never be powerful in Heroclix.

And you can't have characters with superspeed that can even run from one edge of the map to the other, a distance of, what, a couple of city blocks? They can't run that far in one turn, though some might (in the comics) be capable of traveling at the speed of light (or faster). Nightcrawler can teleport three miles in the comics, but he can't make it across this tiny map in Heroclix. Yes, there are exceptions with some special powers unique to a character (who never deserves to be that unique), but regardless, people with powers are severely limited in Heroclix.

Heck, people with flight can't even make use of this ability to fly up into the sky and hurl bolts of energy down at opponents on the ground without fear of retaliation. The best a flying hero can do is hover one inch above the ground... though they can fly on to the top of a building, where they then stay just one inch above the roof of the building.

[JoeJ]

M&M does as well: Power Level X - This being can do as they please. That's it, they're NPC in the vein of Mxyzptlk. They are plot devices that talk at you.

I really like the PL X idea. It's a great way of dealing with NPCs that are basically just plot devices. It doesn't work well for player characters, though.

[SimonMoon6]

I really like the PL X idea. It's a great way of dealing with NPCs that are basically just plot devices. It doesn't work well for player characters, though.

I think some of M&M's best ideas were borrowed from Mayfair's DC Heroes RPG. In DC Heroes, there are two "do anything" powers and they are designed perfectly for PCs.

One is Sorcery. You have X ranks (APs) in Sorcery. You can mimic any other power, splitting up your APs of Sorcery among the powers you choose to mimic this turn. There's a little bit of extra balancing by the fact that if you use too much power, you might take some damage to your mystical hit points (SPIRIT).

The other is Omni-Power for characters who CAN do anything, but usually don't. The pre-Kyle Green Lanterns were great examples of this. They COULD do anything but would usually stick to making green constructs and flying around. Omni-Power is similar to Sorcery, except you have to spend your most precious resource (Hero Points) to activate Omni-Power, with the more versatile powers costing you more (possibly a LOT more), so you usually don't want to use it a lot. I remember one of my players once saying that he would never make a character with Omni-Power because of the cost. Then I made him play a character with Omni-Power and he was using it all the time with no complaints.

A third power, Continuum Control, feels like it belongs in the same category, though it doesn't, since it only really allows one to control all matter and all of space and time. That's like only three of the Soul Gems Infinity Gems Infinity Stones.

[John Campbell]

M&M does as well: Power Level X - This being can do as they please. That's it, they're NPC in the vein of Mxyzptlk. They are plot devices that talk at you.

No, Mayfair released a Watchmen supplement for DC Heroes that had actual stats for Doctor Manhattan, not just "PL X statless plot device".

[Imbalance]

<snip>

Yeah, this sounds familiar. Nothing more I can say, except that you are missing my point.

[JoeJ]

No, Mayfair released a Watchmen supplement for DC Heroes that had actual stats for Doctor Manhattan, not just "PL X statless plot device".

Yep. There was a Watchman sourcebook for 1st edition, and in 2nd edition his stats were included in the boxed set. I think a good argument could be made that Dr. Manhattan shouldn't have stats, but Mayfair obviously thought that he should.

[Jay R]

The introduction to the last Champions game I ran included the following:

I am beginning an early Silver Age campaign. The characters will not be as powerful as you are used to, and the villains will be similarly de-powered. Because I wish characters to take the kinds of risks that comic book characters actually take, I guarantee that your character will not die. Bad things may happen, but they will not be permanent.

[Note: you are not immortal, and I cannot save you from your own stupidity. If you choose to dive into a volcano or a vat of acid, I can’t save you. But the normal run of comic book adventures is not going to do you in. Spider-Man does not, in fact, get shot to death in the comics. Take risks to save people. Really. That’s what heroes do.]

...

These are early Silver Age characters, which means that they have difficulties and weaknesses. Don’t try to make a character who can survive anything. The team books of the time leaned on the weaknesses of each character, allowing other heroes to rescue the one in trouble. (Kryptonite was extremely common in Justice League stories, for instance.) You may assume that I will arrange to take each of you out of the action occasionally, for story purposes. Don’t make me have to drop a mountain on you to do it.

...

Tell me what you want to do, and I will help you find the best way. But when we’re done, the character will be less powerful than you’re used to, and with greater weaknesses.

I know most of the ways to try to build a character worth much more than the rules intend. If you come up with such a strategy, I will congratulate you on your cleverness and ruthlessly disallow it. You must pay points for any technology you intend to use at will in adventures. Of course you have a phone at home, and can find a pay phone in the city, but if you want constant contact with the team, you need to buy it as a power. Even Batman’s rope is bought as the power “Swinging”.

This was for a game with 225-point characters. It also had a list of specific rules, with a kicker. You could choose to be an exception to one of the rules, and no two characters could be exceptions to the same rule. So they weren't things nobody could do; they were things only one person could do.

I did not have a specific limit to Active Points, but I did insist that I could add limitations to high-point powers. I also had a limit to Real Point (cost after all advantages and limitations are included). So a player could build an elite-level power, but I would choose limitations that would prevent it from destroying the scenario. One player had a character with near-Superman strength (and went toe-to-toe with Ultraman, the evil Superman from the Crime Syndicate). Another took it as an opportunity to play a Batman-like character, which usually doesn't work well in a game against super-powers.

[Beleriphon]

No, Mayfair released a Watchmen supplement for DC Heroes that had actual stats for Doctor Manhattan, not just "PL X statless plot device".

Which I contend is silly because Doctor Manhattan is a naked blue plot device. Despite all of his power he actually doesn't do anything in The Watchmen, but that's a discussion for another thread about story telling in sequential art media.

All that being said M&M has a effect called Variable, high enough levels let a character replicate any other effect, even modify their own base statistics up and down. Admittedly Doctor Manhattan isn't quite the Cosmic Imp that you find with Mxyzptlk, or similarly omnipotent characters. That said, if you were playing a game using the Watchmen as your base Doctor Manhattan might as well be Mxyzptlk for all the character can hope to harm him or stop him.

In many ways a PL X character in M&M is meant to stop the idea that "If it has stats the players will fight it." Mxyzptlk, the Cosmic Imp, the Great Gazoo, Bat-Mite, Impossible Man, aren't fights. They're challenges, but you don't need stats for that challenge.

[gkathellar]

In many ways a PL X character in M&M is meant to stop the idea that "If it has stats the players will fight it." Mxyzptlk, the Cosmic Imp, the Great Gazoo, Bat-Mite, Impossible Man, aren't fights. They're challenges, but you don't need stats for that challenge.

I still recall the Superman the Animated Series episode where Mxyzptlk first shows up. It basically served as an opportunity for the writers to stretch their creative muscles and have an episode entirely about Superman outsmarting someone. It was great, both in general and as a change of pace.

That's hard to do at the table, some of which is player psychology and some of which is the odd relationship between player skill and character skill in roleplaying challenges. If you can get past that, and if your players are willing and able to buy into it, though, it can be a lot of fun to set the rules aside for a minute - because they're useless to what you're doing - and just see where things go. But it takes a lot of trust!

[John Campbell]

Which I contend is silly because Doctor Manhattan is a naked blue plot device. Despite all of his power he actually doesn't do anything in The Watchmen, but that's a discussion for another thread about story telling in sequential art media.

I tend to agree, but the question was whether superpowerful supers could be statted, not whether they should be.

[Earthwalker]

For example, although I own M&M (somewhere), I'm not remotely familiar with half of those tricks. Although I will say, 5% of normal humans just ignoring Professor X's ability represent an epic failure of the system to instantiate the character.

Surly this is exactly the difference between a game and a comic book story tho. This isn’t a system issue its just the effect of the change of media.
Are you convinced a better way to handle powers is for super powers just to work and have a game where one of the powers is shut down someone’s brain. ?
GM “As you enter the lair of The super villain The Brain Surgeon ready to finally face him in a fight for the minds of Coast City….. You al moving your brains shut down”
PC “Do we get a resistance roll or something?”
GM “Nope I want the PCs to be special so all powers just work. Brain Surgeon shut your brains down, its his power”
GM “I am such a good GM”

Now, as to your other points... Well, insert obligatory "I've played in a game with (figurative) Thor and a (literal) sentient potted plant - I was the potted plant" reference.
Now that that's out of the way, yes, you absolutely can have absolute power disparity and still have a fun game - if you have the right group. "Balance" and "Fun" are not synonyms.
That said, nothing in this thread should indicate to you that I have any intention of producing unbalanced superheroes. To not go down this wormhole, feel free to assume that I'm only discussing balanced high-end, world-altering superheroes.

While your group handles a large power disparity a lot of other groups do not handle it at all well. So removing the power disparity is generally a good idea.
Now you pull this example out a lot and your group worked to fix the issue you created making a potted plant. That isn’t always going to happen for all people.
I am not saying that you cant have fun with unbalanced groups. I am saying it needs more work and a different attitude than some groups have and it should be something to be aware of.

[Beleriphon]

I tend to agree, but the question was whether superpowerful supers could be statted, not whether they should be.

Oh they can be, M&M 2E I have a build for Unicron from Transfromers. For those not familiar he transforms into a moon, he eats planets. I used some absurd number of ranks of Growth, it cost over 1000 build points. It was stupid, but it is possible.

[Quertus]

I really like the PL X idea. It's a great way of dealing with NPCs that are basically just plot devices. It doesn't work well for player characters, though.

It could work for PCs. I think several people have mentioned games built around that idea (or was that another thread? Darn senility).

Surly this is exactly the difference between a game and a comic book story tho. This isn’t a system issue its just the effect of the change of media.
Are you convinced a better way to handle powers is for super powers just to work and have a game where one of the powers is shut down someone’s brain. ?
GM “As you enter the lair of The super villain The Brain Surgeon ready to finally face him in a fight for the minds of Coast City….. You al moving your brains shut down”
PC “Do we get a resistance roll or something?”
GM “Nope I want the PCs to be special so all powers just work. Brain Surgeon shut your brains down, its his power”
GM “I am such a good GM”

Well, I've played under GMs who did just that - and who did that in systems where that was not a thing, and therefore the PCs couldn't that, but the GM's NPCs could and did. So... that would be one step better than my existing personal horror stories.

Can Professor X canonically shut down anyone's mind, no chance to resist? No, I don't think that he's quite that powerful, just really close. Like maybe shut down any non-telepath who lacks mental defenses or an otherwise "really powerful" mind.

However, what I was advocating would, in M&M terms, probably best be described as "extras get no save". Which might be an M&M default rule, for all I know.

So, for all I know, there is no difference between the implementations of the specific power I was referencing in a specific game vs in a specific comic book.

While your group handles a large power disparity a lot of other groups do not handle it at all well. So removing the power disparity is generally a good idea.
Now you pull this example out a lot and your group worked to fix the issue you created making a potted plant. That isn’t always going to happen for all people.
I am not saying that you cant have fun with unbalanced groups. I am saying it needs more work and a different attitude than some groups have and it should be something to be aware of.

Know your group. Balance to the table. Balance is a range, not a point.

Why assume that characters capable of pulling off such stunts must necessarily need to be in unbalanced parties with characters who cannot contribute at a higher level of war, when I had made no comments indicating that?

I'm just saying that this conversation, while it can be interesting, is irrelevant to the questions I'm asking.

[NichG]

Games with no-save powers are doable, but it's best for a different genre than superheroes due to the meta they induce. The game has to be designed like chess where the conditions for being under someone's power are highly specific and absolutely telegraphed, in which case 'we walk into the lair without a viable defense' is a statement like 'on my turn, I'm going to put my king in check'. The result is more like a heist game than a heroes game I think (or at least more like Code Geass than Marvel).

[Quertus]

Games with no-save powers are doable, but it's best for a different genre than superheroes due to the meta they induce. The game has to be designed like chess where the conditions for being under someone's power are highly specific and absolutely telegraphed, in which case 'we walk into the lair without a viable defense' is a statement like 'on my turn, I'm going to put my king in check'. The result is more like a heist game than a heroes game I think (or at least more like Code Geass than Marvel).

Again, the specific incident(s) I was referencing involved Mook muggles getting no save, not heroes getting no save.

[NichG]

Again, the specific incident(s) I was referencing involved Mook muggles getting no save, not heroes getting no save.

Yes, that works without deforming the gameplay and it's basically the case in Limit Break. But I do take the point that part of the feeling of supers can be the idea that, since you tend to have a much narrower set of tricks associated with a given superhero than, say, a wizard, when one of those tricks just bounces off of a defense it can impact the feel of the character quite a bit more, especially if there's a random element to it. So I think it's an interesting design constraint to try to figure out how one would make a system where there are no generic defenses against powers, but which still feels superhero-y and is playable without feeling unfair. Limit Break doesn't succeed at this or at least doesn't attempt to go quite that far, but it would be interesting if it actually could have done so.