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  1. - Top - End - #331
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    GnomeWizardGuy

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    Default Re: OOTS #1159 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Kish View Post
    Even if the earth elementals were immune to petrification:

    If you summon the elementals outside the orange barrier, they're not dwarves, so they can't go through it.
    If you summon them inside the orange barrier, you've cast a spell past the orange barrier and you get turned to stone.
    If you stand outside it, look through the door, and summon them on the other side, the barrier is already established as blocking sound, so you can't give them any orders.

    You'd need to be a dwarf, look through the door to summon them, then go through it to give them orders--even assuming the barrier couldn't petrify people who acted to affect the inside of the chamber from outside it and that the barrier doesn't break line of effect. Neither of which I would assume.
    It's the blue barrier within which casting is prohibited. In the space between the orange and blue barriers, anybody who was able to enter through the orange barrier can cast spells (which was the loophole that the Exarch pointed out as possibly being left in there so that the builders could influence things themselves). It is implied but not stated that standing in the intermediate zone and casting spells upon anything that is inside the blue zone is not permitted. It is DEFINITELY stated that spells can not be cast from within the blue zone.

  2. - Top - End - #332
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    SolithKnightGuy

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    Default Re: OOTS #1159 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by ijuinkun View Post
    It's the blue barrier within which casting is prohibited. In the space between the orange and blue barriers, anybody who was able to enter through the orange barrier can cast spells (which was the loophole that the Exarch pointed out as possibly being left in there so that the builders could influence things themselves). It is implied but not stated that standing in the intermediate zone and casting spells upon anything that is inside the blue zone is not permitted. It is DEFINITELY stated that spells can not be cast from within the blue zone.
    I think that loophole was for simple reasons that he gave a sinister twist to - no magic means no healing and since elders are the most likely to suffer from illness they are the most likely to need healing spells
    'Utślie'n aurė! Aiya Eldaliė ar Atanatįri, utślie'n aurė! “The day has come! Behold, people of the Eldar and Fathers of Men, the day has come!" And all those who heard his great voice echo in the hills answered, crying:'Auta i lómė!" The night is passing!"

  3. - Top - End - #333
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    Grey_Wolf_c's Avatar

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    Default Re: OOTS #1159 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by mjasghar View Post
    I think that loophole was for simple reasons that he gave a sinister twist to - no magic means no healing and since elders are the most likely to suffer from illness they are the most likely to need healing spells
    I’m on record saying that I believe the middle chamber is a compromise between those that feared attack from outsiders and those expecting it from fellow council members. The bodyguard are protected from non-dwarf attack but retain the ability to magically assist if it becomes necessary.

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  4. - Top - End - #334
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    Default Re: OOTS #1159 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Grey_Wolf_c View Post
    I’m on record saying that I believe the middle chamber is a compromise between those that feared attack from outsiders and those expecting it from fellow council members. The bodyguard are protected from non-dwarf attack but retain the ability to magically assist if it becomes necessary.

    Grey Wolf
    I must have missed it when you first proposed that. I like it.
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  5. - Top - End - #335
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    SamuraiGirl

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    Default Re: OOTS #1159 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Ghosty View Post
    On the Disjunction argument, I think it's been mentioned here before (like seemingly everything else, really), <snip>
    Im not sure exactly how many typewriter powered monkeys there are - but we sure seem to be legion

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  6. - Top - End - #336
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    SamuraiGirl

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    Default Re: OOTS #1159 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Kish View Post
    Even if the earth elementals were immune to petrification:

    If you summon the elementals outside the orange barrier, they're not dwarves, so they can't go through it.
    If you summon them inside the orange barrier, you've cast a spell past the orange barrier and you get turned to stone.
    If you stand outside it, look through the door, and summon them on the other side, the barrier is already established as blocking sound, so you can't give them any orders.

    You'd need to be a dwarf, look through the door to summon them, then go through it to give them orders--even assuming the barrier couldn't petrify people who acted to affect the inside of the chamber from outside it and that the barrier doesn't break line of effect. Neither of which I would assume.
    Every one gets turned to stone who violates dwarven law inside the blue barrier.

    "But they do explicitely forbid attacking or using any spell or supernatural ability on any creature during a council member"

    the orange Barrier prevents non dwarves from entering the middle chamber.
    So summoning any kind of creature outside of the blue barrier should be fine.
    Heck even inside the blue barrier should be covered.

    sch
    Do NOT argue with idiots - they drag you on their level and beat you with experience

  7. - Top - End - #337

    Default Re: OOTS #1159 - The Discussion Thread

    Maybe. We don't know if summoning in a council chamber is a violation of dwarven law. Do it in the atrium and you don't have to look it up in the rulebook.

  8. - Top - End - #338
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    Default Re: OOTS #1159 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by schmunzel View Post
    Im not sure exactly how many typewriter powered monkeys there are - but we sure seem to be legion
    The amount of poo flinging in some of the threads attests to the truth of your observation.
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  9. - Top - End - #339
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    RedWizardGuy

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    Default Re: OOTS #1159 - The Discussion Thread

    Thinking here... Haley complains about the Invisibility Purge, but she should be thankfull it was that, and not a (maybe Greater) Dispel Magic, since they are flying over that huge chasm...
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  10. - Top - End - #340
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    DwarfClericGuy

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    Default Re: OOTS #1159 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by D.One View Post
    Thinking here... Haley complains about the Invisibility Purge, but she should be thankfull it was that, and not a (maybe Greater) Dispel Magic, since they are flying over that huge chasm...
    Well, Invisibility Purge will work automatically. Dispel Magic or Greater DM have a caster check vs probably V. It might not work. Still, that is a third level spell slot that was used on defense and not offense.
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  11. - Top - End - #341
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    Default Re: OOTS #1159 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Kareasint View Post
    Well, Invisibility Purge will work automatically. Dispel Magic or Greater DM have a caster check vs probably V. It might not work. Still, that is a third level spell slot that was used on defense and not offense.
    The nightcrawler has greater dispel magic as an at-will spell-like ability. That means that it does not spent any spell slots to use greater dispel magic, can spam it every turn, and has a 13/20 chance of dispelling anything Vaarsuvius casts.

  12. - Top - End - #342

    Default Re: OOTS #1159 - The Discussion Thread

    Or put another way, there's be a 35% chance of a spell remaining after the first round, a 12.25% chance the second round, a 4.2875% chance the third....

  13. - Top - End - #343
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    Default Re: OOTS #1159 - The Discussion Thread

    If the worm is spending all of its turns dispelling, then it's not actually doing anything useful to save itself.
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  14. - Top - End - #344
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    RedWizardGuy

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    Default Re: OOTS #1159 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by zimmerwald1915 View Post
    The nightcrawler has greater dispel magic as an at-will spell-like ability. That means that it does not spent any spell slots to use greater dispel magic, can spam it every turn, and has a 13/20 chance of dispelling anything Vaarsuvius casts.
    While it can technically spam it every turn, it still takes a standard action to do so - "at will" does not make the spell in question quickened. Nor can it be used to counterspell.

    In this case the vampire just made an emotional decision, but the point remains spamming it every turn is not the best decision.

  15. - Top - End - #345

    Default Re: OOTS #1159 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Goblin_Priest View Post
    If the worm is spending all of its turns dispelling, then it's not actually doing anything useful to save itself.
    Eh, as long as the squishy monkeys are out of range of its other tricks not much reason to worry about it.

  16. - Top - End - #346
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    Default Re: OOTS #1159 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Goblin_Priest View Post
    If the worm is spending all of its turns dispelling, then it's not actually doing anything useful to save itself.
    It is not a terrible delaying tactic at all, which is a okay goal in this situation, even if it may fall short of what the Exarch was hoping for. But Haley will fill it full of arrows, and V can get lucky and defeat the SR.

  17. - Top - End - #347
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    Default Re: OOTS #1159 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Goblin_Priest View Post
    If the worm is spending all of its turns dispelling, then it's not actually doing anything useful to save itself.
    Invisibility Purge from a friend to help out allies/get the foe to reapply it, spam Dispel and take evasive actions until they are close enough to be om-nom-nomed or fall down into the pit. If they get through, try to keep them in melee while they slowly fall prey to your many other techniques. Grabbing foes and jumping into the pit because you can't properly die is a fun tactic, but odds are that will go against the "protect the area" bit. In this case I guess it could try grabbing a dispelled Haley, leaning over the edge of the pit and hurling her down. Of course, that leaves it open to being attacked by V so it would need V incapacitated first.
    The point stands that due to the presence of a large pit, Greater Dispel and flailing about trying to dodge attacks are probably its best abilities. I mean, what else would it do until then? Once everyone is on the ground though, Greater Dispel will not be as useful unless your attacks are doing nothing because of enemy buffs.

  18. - Top - End - #348
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    PaladinGuy

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    Default Re: OOTS #1159 - The Discussion Thread

    Hmmm. A lot of problems that having access to Dismissal, Greater Dispel Magic, and/or the general ability to blow holes through walls would be very, very helpful for solving. How unfortunate that there is no friendly high level dwarven cleric with an artifact level weapon that might have additional bonus powers available to help.

    Oh, wait. . . :-)
    Sudden thought after watching an old "Lois and Clark" episode: Lane Davies aka Tempus is probably the best possible choice to portray an animated or live action Xykon if either of those ever becomes reality--he was born in 1950 and Tempus' personality is a close match for pre-lich Xykon IMO. Just my two cents.

  19. - Top - End - #349
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    Default Re: OOTS #1159 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by eilandesq View Post
    Hmmm. A lot of problems that having access to Dismissal, Greater Dispel Magic, and/or the general ability to blow holes through walls would be very, very helpful for solving. How unfortunate that there is no friendly high level dwarven cleric with an artifact level weapon that might have additional bonus powers available to help.

    Oh, wait. . . :-)
    To further play on someone else's theory, the enemies that are vulnerable to sunlight are really stacking up at this local, the place that the elder complained about for being right adjacent to the surface. If only someone had the means to do a little destruction of the ceiling, things could swing very badly for the Exarch. How unfortunate there is no friendly spellcaster who might have had a chance to prepare Earthquake or with an artifact level weapon that might have additional bonus powers available to help.

  20. - Top - End - #350
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    SolithKnightGuy

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    Default Re: OOTS #1159 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Snails View Post
    To further play on someone else's theory, the enemies that are vulnerable to sunlight are really stacking up at this local, the place that the elder complained about for being right adjacent to the surface. If only someone had the means to do a little destruction of the ceiling, things could swing very badly for the Exarch. How unfortunate there is no friendly spellcaster who might have had a chance to prepare Earthquake or with an artifact level weapon that might have additional bonus powers available to help.
    Don’t mean to be rude - it’s locale not local
    'Utślie'n aurė! Aiya Eldaliė ar Atanatįri, utślie'n aurė! “The day has come! Behold, people of the Eldar and Fathers of Men, the day has come!" And all those who heard his great voice echo in the hills answered, crying:'Auta i lómė!" The night is passing!"

  21. - Top - End - #351
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    Peelee's Avatar

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    Default Re: OOTS #1159 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Snails View Post
    To further play on someone else's theory, the enemies that are vulnerable to sunlight are really stacking up at this local, the place that the elder complained about for being right adjacent to the surface. If only someone had the means to do a little destruction of the ceiling, things could swing very badly for the Exarch. How unfortunate there is no friendly spellcaster who might have had a chance to prepare Earthquake or with an artifact level weapon that might have additional bonus powers available to help.
    Earthquake? The Church of the Sudden Skylight is certainly open to different interpretations of the scriptures.
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  22. - Top - End - #352
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    Default Re: OOTS #1159 - The Discussion Thread

    so - and this is a bit silly, if they passed a law against vampires being inside the temple, would that not mean all of them just broke the law? They could just make laws which completely protect those inside the chamber. Just being possessed, or not of sound mind, that could be illegal.

    But then are undead things which can be turned to stone? They are immune to effects which require fort saves, like flesh to stone, (or a cockatrice), and googling this I see a lot of folks concluding its a DM ruling. Could just imagine actual rules lawyers coming in to adjudicate what happens during this combat. ( of course DMs and Thor or whoever, could set up whatever rules they wish for this )

  23. - Top - End - #353
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    Default Re: OOTS #1159 - The Discussion Thread

    Well, Roy did say that he considered the most rules-lawyerish way the vote could go, so Giant could be obliging him...
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  24. - Top - End - #354
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    Beholder

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    Default Re: OOTS #1159 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by briantmeyer View Post
    so - and this is a bit silly, if they passed a law against vampires being inside the temple, would that not mean all of them just broke the law? They could just make laws which completely protect those inside the chamber. Just being possessed, or not of sound mind, that could be illegal.
    The vampires aren't going inside the place that turns you to stone if you break the law, or at least haven't yet. And even if they did, assuming they hadn't thought ahead of time to put those laws in the books (which is likely as laws like that usually only happen after they're called for), the vampires already control a majority inside the chamber so no law is likely to be passed until that problem is resolved.

  25. - Top - End - #355
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    BlueWizardGirl

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    Default Re: OOTS #1159 - The Discussion Thread

    The Exaaargh at least planned to enter the council chamber with the curly-haired former priestess of Thor, before his monster alerted him to two Order members.

    (Also, the Council of Clans is not a legislative body, per High Priestess Rubyrock.)
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  26. - Top - End - #356
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    hrožila's Avatar

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    Default Re: OOTS #1159 - The Discussion Thread

    The impression I got is that they intend to enter the chamber and then use completely normal, non-supernatural verbal instructions to tell their pawns what to do (their pawns having already been instructed to obey them beforehand). They'd only be breaking a law if an anti-vampire law exists in the first place, which is unlikely — if the idea of vampire dwarfs occurred to a legislator at all, which I doubt, they probably figured that they were still basically the same dwarfish person and thus that they should be allowed inside in principle, as per the general lack of understanding of how vampires work.
    ungelic is us

  27. - Top - End - #357
    Orc in the Playground
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    Default Re: OOTS #1159 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    Earthquake? The Church of the Sudden Skylight is certainly open to different interpretations of the scriptures.
    Does the Church's holy creed tend toward syncretism between the Arcane and Divine? Because I can think of numerous liturgies for (sub-)terranean renewal, and a casting-as-17th-level acolyte to sing them. I doubt V has or prepared something like Rock to Mud, but I know s/he's got umpteenth Disintegrates on tap.

    Provided s/he doesn't fall into the abyss next to the stone bridge, post Greater Dispel Magic, of course

  28. - Top - End - #358
    Orc in the Playground
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    Default Re: OOTS #1159 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Aveline View Post
    The Exaaargh...
    Nice! I've not seen that variant on his name before. I like it.

  29. - Top - End - #359
    Orc in the Playground
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    Default Re: OOTS #1159 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by briantmeyer View Post
    ...
    But then are undead things which can be turned to stone? They are immune to effects which require fort saves, like flesh to stone, (or a cockatrice), and googling this I see a lot of folks concluding its a DM ruling. Could just imagine actual rules lawyers coming in to adjudicate what happens during this combat. ( of course DMs and Thor or whoever, could set up whatever rules they wish for this )
    Thought they were only immune to Fort-save effects if the effect didn't also work on a non-living thing? Which is why Disintegrate is so nifty for wrecking tough undead at a distance, and why it was so perplexing that, a wizard, who earlier in the strip loved spamming the spell with abandon, didn't use it in the big fight with Greg.

    Fight turned out amazingly anyway...

  30. - Top - End - #360
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    BlueWizardGirl

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    Default Re: OOTS #1159 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Ghosty View Post
    Nice! I've not seen that variant on his name before. I like it.
    I have no idea who came up with "Exaaargh". It certainly wasn't me. I think it was in parlance before I joined the forum.
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