Vampire The Masquerade - Bloodlines 2 Announced

[Anonymouswizard]

Missed opportunity to not straight up call it the Shadow Cabinet.

Intentionally not called the Shadow Cabinet so as not to confuse people in game. Also so as not to make it too political.

[The Jack]

You're not trying to make your political scenario political?

[137beth]

I haven't played V5, but the main criticism I have heard from people who have is that the editing in the rulebook is really bad. Which, thankfully, doesn't really matter for a video game adaption.

[Anonymouswizard]

You're not trying to make your political scenario political?

Overly aligned with real world politics. {Scrubbed}

It's why the Covenants have such a big role, three of them work as local political parties without me having to use any real ones and incite tensions related to the thing.

[The Jack]

{Scrubbed}

[The Glyphstone]

The threadbare Masquerade I'd call less a design flaw in its own right and an unavoidable consequence of updating the setting to something that isn't 25-30 years old, with the attendant advances in technology. Any total 'masquerade'-like ignorance in a modern world of Cameras Everywhere and rampant social media activity requires unreasonable degrees of suspension of disbelief.

Replacing it with a pseudo-Masquerade where a small fraction of un-subverted mortals know about the supernatural but keep it secret from the teeming masses for their own reasons/benefit is, IMO, the best that can be reasonably expected on that front.

[Morty]

That's also pretty much why Chronicles of Darkness moved from mortals being ignorant to mortals knowing, but repressing it and rationalizing it due to the world's nature.

[druid91]

The threadbare Masquerade I'd call less a design flaw in its own right and an unavoidable consequence of updating the setting to something that isn't 25-30 years old, with the attendant advances in technology. Any total 'masquerade'-like ignorance in a modern world of Cameras Everywhere and rampant social media activity requires unreasonable degrees of suspension of disbelief.

Replacing it with a pseudo-Masquerade where a small fraction of un-subverted mortals know about the supernatural but keep it secret from the teeming masses for their own reasons/benefit is, IMO, the best that can be reasonably expected on that front.

I mean. Not particularly. This might be a modern world of camera's everywhere and rampant social media activity, but A.) Vampires only come out at night, where most people and cell-phone cameras are going to have a little bit of trouble. And B.) This assumes the Camarilla hasn't subverted the cell-phone companies. It's a world of constant surveillance everywhere, that means it's easier than ever to grab masquerade breaches and in the fantasy land of the World of Darkness, lock them out before they've even posted anything.

[The Jack]

They weakened the hell out of dominate. Where once it was a terrifying and tool with only 2 or 3 dots needed to get a grip on the masses, where you could insinuate false thoughts, assign triggers and keep that stuff up forever, where people would justify their own odd actions if you didn't use it like a sledgehammer... know they zone out like possessed people and go fill the conditions made, forgetting everything, and you can't assign triggers, thoughts, or even just sneak it in during a conversation. You've gotta get elder-level bull**** in v5 to approach the normie stuff.

Obviously, that's going to **** on the masquerade. Where once dominate was the best thing for the masquerade, now it is some of the worst. Obfuscate is in an extremely similar boat.

Now, when it comes to tech, the setting's assumed all communications are banned because the big scary goverment's monitoring that stuff for terrorism and they're looking for vampiric key words.

Firstly that part of goverment should be working with the vampires to identify masquerade breeches so that they can be shut down
Secondly, vampires could just elect not to use key words and look like normal people on the phone.

Lastly the tremere were developing technomancy, I'm sure that field will have grown in response to technological risks



PS. V5 is like 343's halo. The new gameplay might be enjoyable but it doesn't suit the franchise. The characters are there but the themes are all wrong. You get the feeling that they could've made something great if they made something else. Also the writing is ****.

[Anonymouswizard]

The Tremere in v5.
You might remember Strauss from Bloodlines. The Tremere are a clan of hermetic blood mages. The clan is an academic pyramid scheme and they are noted (and mistrusted) for their extreme loyalty to their clan. Their weakness is that they find it much easier to blood bond eachother.

In V5
A bomb went off and killed a few elders at the top of the pyramid in their mega-fortress.
-Their weakness (easy blood bonds) is changed so that they can no longer create blood bonds. This means that the clan-first clan is no longer clan first.
-They split into three groups. One for camarilla (loyalists) one for sabbat, one for Anarchs. The Anarch group rejects patriarchy (Vampires are asexual and the Tremere had women in the highest rank) and they reject Hermetic theories of magic in favour of paganism (Now, as paradigm is very important in the setting's magic, this is an absolute moron move because they have to re-learn everything according to their new beliefs, which will take decades and centuries... But I guess they thought they were making a statement)
-With the clan no longer holding it's unity, it loses it's might, it's blood magic monopoly and... Like, everything that formed it's identity is gone. Everything that made them stand out from other clans is gone.

Ouch, The Tremere and Ventrue were two of my favourite clans for their boring but practical nature (the Brujah also being a favourite of mine for the same reason, although my all time favourite are the Nossies).

To people who haven't seen the previous editions: the Tremere were both the most progressive and conservative of the Camarilla clans. Like all clans they didn't care one bit about what sex or colour your corpse is, managed to develop a versatile enough paradigm of Blood Magic to be to buld a monopoly in the Camarilla (while there are other Cam magicians they have nowhere near the potential versatility or resources of the Tremere), and have probably pushed the potential of Vitae the furthest out of all the Clans, but are incredibly bound up in their Clan structure.

Oh certainly, there will be pagan-based Tremere Caitiff (social Caitiff, not true clanless), because Blood Magic is closer to hedge magic than true magick and as such is less reliant on paradigm, but they still have to relearn all their casting and do without the resources of the Tremere (have fun learning new paths!). Also the words Tremere Antitribu spring to mind, weren't they the portion of the Tremere with the Sabbat? I wonder what happened to them? Yeah, as long as some of the low Generation Tremere survived you can bet they're searching for a ritual and will pull off a lesser version of the big T's stunt, destroying all non loyalist Tremere and restablishing their monopoly (it'll take decades, but they have centuries).

Speaking of Tremere, I'm starting my let's play of Bloodlines fairly soon. I've just made my way through the prologue grabbing screenshots, and Stephanie the Tremere will soon embark into the bit of the game I actually know something about (I remember there being thinbloods here). Wow is Thaumaturgy powerful, I seem to have come out of some fights with more BP than I started with. I plan to at least have some of the beach done before starting the thread though, so it might not appear until Sunday.

-They ruined the dynamic between Camarilla (the world wide system of order that most vampires adhere to) and the Anarchs (Rebels) where once the Cammy were smart, grown up choice that occasionally got a bit much and the Anarchs are a mess of a few people wanting to make new status quo, now the cam and anarchs are roughly equal and it's an old VS young thing, rather than a clever system of Me, my rivals, my supporters and I...

To be fair, back in the 1e/2e corebooks it was an old versus young thing, in fact one of the key points of contention was the limits on Embracing rubbing youngsters the wrong way, but the Camarilla was still the sensible option and the Anarchs were being a bit stupid and had to get their act together once they actually controlled some cities.

Also, they just turned the Anarchs and the Camarilla into the Invictus and the Carthians. Considering that the Tremere apparently lost one third of their numbers to the circle of the Crone, are we sure the designers didn't just want to release Requiem again?

The threadbare Masquerade I'd call less a design flaw in its own right and an unavoidable consequence of updating the setting to something that isn't 25-30 years old, with the attendant advances in technology. Any total 'masquerade'-like ignorance in a modern world of Cameras Everywhere and rampant social media activity requires unreasonable degrees of suspension of disbelief.

Replacing it with a pseudo-Masquerade where a small fraction of un-subverted mortals know about the superna Itural but keep it secret from the teeming masses for their own reasons/benefit is, IMO, the best that can be reasonably expected on that front.

Eh, yes and no. The key problem is now passing for human at a casual inspection and not drawing too much attention to yourself. Sure, the average kindred is probably photographed more than thirty times a night, but during most of those they're using blush of life and aren't the focus, and with the thousands of people on security footage it's not like they're going to be picked out of that.

Plus get a few ghouls and dominated pawns to keep an eye on records and maybe move to another big city every few decades to be less suspicious and it should be fine. It'll be more like CofD (the people who know are justifying and not talking to stop themselves from looking crazy), but you can still hide yourself from major governments fairly effectively. Sure the occasional government official will know or find out, as was the case back in 1e. The Masquerade does not have to be perfect, but it certainly has to be good enough to stop governments from taking action.

Anyway, finally got Bloodlines loaded, time to install the UP and start my playthrough.

(The big problem in Requiem was that vampires had blurry photos, which 2e did away with precisely because cameras are everywhere.)

[Serenity]

There were already powerful government-sanctioned Hunter groups in original-flavor Masquerade, to my memory.

Vampires may be impotent, but that's hardly going to stop gender politics in and of itself, and many sourcebooks have noted that, reflecting both vampire's tendency toward stagnation and that most vampires of a significant level of power were Embraced when women were still bartered for political alliances as a rule, Vampiric society as a whole can be a huge old boy's club. Nor do individual high-ranking female members necessarily indicate, of itself, that female clan members as a whole don't experience condescension, extra scrutiny, etc.

Camarilla vs. Anarch was *definitely* always at it's core a conflict between a monolithic power structure designed to maintain the power base of the old and entrenched against a dispossessed younger generation that the former's rules bear down on. There's certainly also a big dimension of pragmatism vs. idealism, but the core accusation of the Anarchs has always been that being in the Camarilla is just dancing to an elder's tune, and they're not *wrong* about that.

As for 'SJW tripe'--it's an interesting charge, since up until now, all the complaints *I've* heard about V5 have been the opposite, that it was edgelording harder than usual for the franchise.

[Kish]

That the Tremere favored males was in the Second Edition and Third ("Revised") Edition core rulebooks, front and center in the Tremere clan page. I don't know if it was in the First Edition core rulebook, but in light of its presence in 2ed and 3ed I'd be more surprised by its absence than by its presence. The right time to rant about sexism making no sense for vampires was when the game launched, not when Fifth Edition added a clan faction that explicitly objected to it.

[Otomodachi]

Aren't edition wars more appropriate in the WoD thread?

Didn't we already have this EXACT discussion in that thread, actually? Is there actually more to say?

[The Jack]

There were already powerful government-sanctioned Hunter groups in original-flavor Masquerade, to my memory.

SAD were one such group and they were noted for being extremely secretive, even from their own agency. They knew that they'd be snuffed out if anyone got wind of what they were doing. I think they did get snuffed out.

Vampires may be impotent, but that's hardly going to stop gender politics in and of itself, and many sourcebooks have noted that, reflecting both vampire's tendency toward stagnation and that most vampires of a significant level of power were Embraced when women were still bartered for political alliances as a rule, Vampiric society as a whole can be a huge old boy's club. Nor do individual high-ranking female members necessarily indicate, of itself, that female clan members as a whole don't experience condescension, extra scrutiny, etc.

Look down on a female elder, I dare you, I double dare you. Fact is they're completely in a position to trounce you, you're not going to hold that opinion long. I do believe that being sexist towards mortals could be the norm, but you're always going to make exceptions for Kindred. In fact, social justice has always been a neonate thing, because vampires are better off with the world drastically unequal (it's easier to feed on people nobody cares about) so kindred exceptionalism has always been a big deal.

Next, consider the recruiting pool of the tremere. They're interested in academics but they're not after undergraduate liberal arts; They, like the Ventrue, want people who'll fit in well with the clan's culture. They want pragmatists, People who place themselves in hierarchy, STEM subject professors, historians who look for truth rather than something to fit what they believe, academics who write agreeable papers... They're just not going to pick up enough of the types of people who'd be into a feminist-gnostic splinter, and few really hold those beliefs beyond neonate. It's just not a workable seperation

Unless you lock yourself up in a bahari cult's echo chamber for hundreds of years, dominated or driven mad by a malkavian you're not going to maintain a true to feminist beliefs for vampires. There's no sociological system in the western world that'd keep an elder or ancilla a feminist (You could totally lie about it for your own advantage, or you could be from a strongly sexist place where it's more hindrance than help)
The ventrue might have feminist dissent in it's own clan, but that's kindred on kindred. If you asked a female ancilla about feminism for mortals, they'd probably lie their ass off or be outright insulted that you think they need it. They've proven themselves to be exceptional individuals and they don't need some patronizing systemic change that'll lower the standards they've exceeded.

It just doesn't work for vampires, especially not tremere. I'll see a thousand feminist brujah neonates before I see a single 200+ feminist earnestly advocating for societal change in Tremere, Ventrue, Tzmisce, Lasombra, Toreador (keyword;Earnest) giovanni... They might say they're successful and that could be inspiration, but there's no cry for systemic change. Vampires are darwinist. They're the exceptional that worked for their position and they don't want to make it easier for others.
Yes, vampire feminism's been a thing in past editions, but they've always been Lilith cults or doomed bloodlines. You don't go ahead and make a third of the tremere feminist (and non-hermetic).

Someone didn't like the tremere and wanted to make them something else. They've clearly never played tremere.

Camarilla vs. Anarch was *definitely* always at it's core a conflict between a monolithic power structure designed to maintain the power base of the old and entrenched against a dispossessed younger generation.

Indeed, but where before the Cam was the system and the Anarchs were the fringe group, the Anarchs are now a very sizable chunk of the kindred population. It seems like in V5 the majority of kindred are openly anarch and the conflict is more symmetrical. It seems like goodies and baddies, us VS them is a bigger deal than Machiavellian machinations and cut-throat ladder climbing within your own sect.

As for 'SJW tripe'--it's an interesting charge, since up until now, all the complaints *I've* heard about V5 have been the opposite, that it was edgelording harder than usual for the franchise.

It's both, and the two are related. It'd be a political discussion to go into detail, but enemies of social justice are all made as monstrous as possible.


If bloodlines follows V5, it's going to condone mess and be a mess.

[Morty]

Aren't edition wars more appropriate in the WoD thread?

Didn't we already have this EXACT discussion in that thread, actually? Is there actually more to say?

It doesn't look like there is, so I'm inclined to agree.

[The Jack]

Look, bloodlines 2 could legitimize V5, or Bloodlines 2 could suck because of v5. Neither of these options are good.


In the original bloodlines, you're working for the prince, who's inept, but every other cam knows how to do things.

The only good Anarchs are Jack and the Baron of Holywood (his reeve is probably alright), but the Baron is a prince without the fluff, he's a man of order, whilst Jack's an Autark with a fan club.
Nines is awful, 'Nam is awful, Red is the worst.

VV's in anarch territory but pretty apolitical. The Nosferatu are the Nosferatu.
Between Therese and Jeanette, one cam and the other anarch, the best choice for the city is clear.

There's plenty of room to reinterpret this stuff, and that makes stuff great. Maybe the prince alone has soured you on the cam, maybe you can stand Nines's horrendous rhymes, maybe you really liked Hollywood's baron or have a thing for schoolgirls. But there's a narrative here that makes you think about your options and your choices. You see sides to things you might agree or disagree with. That's the beauty of Bloodlines, you can form your own opinions.

But with V5, every man and his dog's an anarch. There's no nuance to your decision. Imagine bloodlines but the anarchs are clearly in the right and the camarilla is clearly in the wrong. Every Cam is laCroix and every anarch is Jack. The anarchs don't have the disadvantage they did and now they're more like different states than a rebelion within a state.

[Roland St. Jude]

Sheriff: Take the edition discussion and warring elsewhere. And tone down the hostility, whether toward the work or other posters. Let's keep this civil and on topic.

[One Step Two]

I'm pretty excited for Bloodlines 2, but I think what will really make or break this game for me is what The Jack said up thread:

There's plenty of room to reinterpret this stuff, and that makes stuff great. Maybe the prince alone has soured you on the cam, maybe you can stand Nines's horrendous rhymes, maybe you really liked Hollywood's baron or have a thing for schoolgirls. But there's a narrative here that makes you think about your options and your choices. You see sides to things you might agree or disagree with. That's the beauty of Bloodlines, you can form your own opinions.

This part especially. The game let you form your own opinions on the characters, and the organisations they represent. On the Camarilla side of things, LaCroix started off as a little smarmy, but he rewarded your efforts for the most part, and even if you came to dislike him, other Camarilla agents were worth some respect. Mercurio always had your back if you were if you were good to him, and while Strauss is manipulative he will respect your intelligence. But that is entirely down to how I experienced them in my play-through. The game was written and designed well enough that I could still side with the Camarilla and betray LaCroix, in addition to simply siding with the Camarilla and the Prince by default, which was itself a valid choice (though not always a good one).

Every character in the original Bloodlines was flawed, that is the nature of the Beast, and doubly so for you as the main character. For example, helping Pisha might certainly have helped preserve the Masquerade, and put an item in your pocket, but it has a cost of humanity.

Letting my choices and interactions within the game be what leads me to form opinions on the characters, organisations and the plot itself is the most important thing to me, because playing VTM at the table, that was the focus of it: My personal horror experience.

If Bloodlines 2 wants to colour my opinions by making one side obviously better, instead of the struggle of trying to pick the lesser of two evils, then it's not going to be anywhere near as satisfying.

[heronbpv]

@One Step Two:
This. So much this.
I think, after all playthroughs of this game I made, I've always either gone solo (always a viable option; and after amassing so much power, it's a really credible one) or cammy (including on where I sided with LaCroix as a Ventrue, just to see what happens).
It's funny, indeed, how true is that in the original, as it enables you to even side with the Kuei-jin (albeit that is one of the real bad endings). The game literally endorses no side to you, and the only missing point of view was that of the Sabbat.

Hopefully that remains true in the sequence.

[Serenity]

I mean, the game let's you join the Kuei-Jin, but it makes no bones about it being a bad idea, same with working for the Prince. Strauss does make a reasonable alternative, but I didn't even realize my first playthrough that getting him to seize power was an option. All told, I felt like Bloodlines boosted the Anarchs pretty darn hard, what with Jack and Nines consistently having your back.

[One Step Two]

@One Step Two:
This. So much this.
I think, after all playthroughs of this game I made, I've always either gone solo (always a viable option; and after amassing so much power, it's a really credible one) or cammy (including on where I sided with LaCroix as a Ventrue, just to see what happens).
It's funny, indeed, how true is that in the original, as it enables you to even side with the Kuei-jin (albeit that is one of the real bad endings). The game literally endorses no side to you, and the only missing point of view was that of the Sabbat.

Hopefully that remains true in the sequence.

I mean, the game let's you join the Kuei-Jin, but it makes no bones about it being a bad idea, same with working for the Prince. Strauss does make a reasonable alternative, but I didn't even realize my first playthrough that getting him to seize power was an option. All told, I felt like Bloodlines boosted the Anarchs pretty darn hard, what with Jack and Nines consistently having your back.

This is a perfect example of what I meant about the lesser of two, well many, evils. At one end of the spectrum, the chief antagonists of the game are the Sabbat and the Kuei-jin. Both of them want you dead, but where the Sabbat will tear your throat out and toss your ashes into the wind, the Kuei-Jin use you as a lab-rat, and still try to get you to turn on the other Kindred with honeyed words, before casting you into the ocean. You can buy into one of the bad guys side and instead of just becoming puppy-kicking, mustache twirling evil and the credits roll after the final battle, they double-cross you, which was awesomely unique for me the first time I tried it.

On the other end, you have your supporting cast coming out of the Camarilla and the Anarchs. I've already gone over the Cam's in my earlier post, but as for the Anarchs, with the exception of Jack, all of them, Nines included, start off thinking you're a piece of crap. They do nothing to endear themselves to you, and it's you that needs to either sweet-talk them in addition to doing a bunch of chores for them to like you. They wield the least amount of power in the game, and offer you no support outside of a few skill-ups, and encourage you to be a mole. They don't offer you a chance to quit working for LaCroix, they want you to stay there, where discovery could mean your Final Death. @Serenity is right, the game does boost the Anarchs a little more, but that's because they screw with you the least. Unlike the Sabbat, Kuei-Jin, and Camarillia, they never try to kill you directly, but they will gladly use you like a pawn.

The fact one of the endings, is Nines and the Anarchs walking up and saying "Awesome job!" after the final battle, to which your response is: Flip them off and walk off into the night, perfectly encapsulates the fact that your choices can be influenced by the way you interpret the game as a personal experience. And that is what I want.

As an aside about not giving the Sabbat a fair shake as a point of view, from the Bloodlines 2 website the small description of the game mentions your character is part of a Mass Embrace. I dearly hope that it means starting as a shovelhead and getting to choose which side of the masquerade to fall on!

[heronbpv]

@One Step Two:
Hooo boy, that would be too awesome to be true. Add in some Black Hand conspiracy stuff for the sabbat, and I'm game, for sure.

And what about the independents? Old Tzimisce? True Brujah? Salubri? My, oh my, give me everything!

[Sian]

apparently, on release you'll be able to join 5 Clans, with additional being made available through Free DLC...

Anyone up for a guessing game as of which 5 that would be?

My guess would be Nosferatu, Malkavian, Tremere, Brujah/Gangrel and Venture/Toreador ... I'm expecting either Brujah or Gangrel not to be available from the start since they strike me as rather similar baseline fighters ... In a similar fashion, Ventrue and Toreador strikes me as two superficially similar sophisticated talkers

[The Jack]

Gangrel and Tremere are the outliers.

The Gangrel left the Cam. There are still Gangrel in the Cam but they don't get primogen representation. Also the Protean power is a weird one.

The Tremere, if done accurately, have a giant toolbox of magic and that'd be harder to implement than regular disciplines. Socially, they're also a weird one. The tremere would need a lot of clan-first dialogue since they're usually partly bound to the clan. They're also one of the most hated clans in the game due to reasons both historical and current. They're also a very, very small minority in Sabbat and Anarch sects, so if for any reason we don't start of Cam, it's a good idea to exclude them.

[Anonymouswizard]

apparently, on release you'll be able to join 5 Clans, with additional being made available through Free DLC...

Anyone up for a guessing game as of which 5 that would be?

Let's see. They're almost certainly going to be from the Camarilla Seven.

Brujah are likely a near certainty. They're the most 'basic' of the Clans (two physical disciplines and Presence, their weakness is just 'increased chance to frenzy).

I think Ventrue are almost certain as well from my opinion. They're one of the more iconic Clans, their weakness is much simpler than the Toreador, and allow for a more social playthrough.

Nosferatu are probably out unfortunately, as you'll begin as a Thin Blood and then join a Clan (and Nossies have that entire 'made of deformaties' issue).

The Malkavians are probably in as well, due to their social/stealth focus, being the most memorable Clan from Bloodlines 1, and the ability to play with stuff like the MMN and Malkavian prophets.

I'd then say the Gangrel are probably in. Their disciplines might make them fighters, but they don't fight in the same way as the Brujah. Animalism, Fortitude, and Protean don't make for a brawler, but for a minionmancer or more strategic warrior.

Then we have one of the Tremere or Toreador, both of who give another Social style clan. I think it'll come down there to if the developers want to implement Blood Magic, so I'm suspecting the Toreador might be the ones we see at launch due to not having any special powers.


I think the last two Clans we'll see are the Tzimisce and Ravnos, with the first DLC Clans being the Nosferatu and Tremere/Toreador (delete as appropriate) to complete the Cam7. Then I think they're going to throw us a curveball and give us an option for remaining Caitiff.

[The Jack]

Nosferatu are probably out unfortunately, as you'll begin as a Thin Blood and then join a Clan (and Nossies have that entire 'made of deformaties' issue).
.

Wait, What?
It's a vampire game.
Those below 12th aren't vampires!

[Divayth Fyr]

Wait, What?
It's a vampire game.
Those below 12th aren't vampires!

Welcome to Vampire v5 I guess?

Spoiler

Show

Joking, but the thin-blood thing is real.

[Anonymouswizard]

Wait, What?
It's a vampire game.
Those below 12th aren't vampires!

Are you living in the Dark Ages? 13th aren't Thin Bloods anymore!

In any case, it's interesting as a contrast to Bloodlines 1 where you began as an 8th generation. Although I'd have preferred a classic TB who had a limited ability to spend BP and generally only manifested standard disciplines compared to what they get now it's still an interesting idea.

The only problem being that it just screams 'diablerie' as the way you get your clan, and so some of us will be disappointed if you don't get the option at least. I wouldn't mind seeing generation actually implemented as a value, instead of just having to work it out like in the first game, but I don't think it'll be a thing. When's the last time a game let you commit diablerie, Redemption?

[The Jack]

Are you living in the Dark Ages? 13th aren't Thin Bloods anymore!

10th is really the cut off point.

In any case, it's interesting as a contrast to Bloodlines 1 where you began as an 8th generation. Although I'd have preferred a classic TB who had a limited ability to spend BP and generally only manifested standard disciplines compared to what they get now it's still an interesting idea.

Your sire totally got staked like a chump and woke up at the same time you did. They're not 7th. I think the insane power of blood-buff in that game was more a game adaption thing than a story thing, though you do get folk telling you about how great you smell (which has never been a tabletop thing...) I chalk it up to the game being unfinished.

The only problem being that it just screams 'diablerie' as the way you get your clan, and so some of us will be disappointed if you don't get the option at least. I wouldn't mind seeing generation actually implemented as a value, instead of just having to work it out like in the first game, but I don't think it'll be a thing. When's the last time a game let you commit diablerie, Redemption?

Diablerie is the culmination of vampire.
But socially joining a clan with thin-bloodness is the highlight of a career. That's a game-worth of content. You don't eat your way into a clan, that's not how it works. They'd kill you for that. Most princes will have you killed for eating their nemesis of twenty life times.


Easiest way to get a linear story going is to establish a life-debt or a major favour that leads to another. Or maybe your sire's telling you to do things in your best interest... with some dominates thrown in when you don't act in your best interest.

[Anonymouswizard]

10th is really the cut off point.

Hey, as long as it's not those weird ghoul-things that have started popping up like stone sort of Caitiff revenant.

Your sire totally got staked like a chump and woke up at the same time you did. They're not 7th. I think the insane power of blood-buff in that game was more a game adaption thing than a story thing, though you do get folk telling you about how great you smell (which has never been a tabletop thing...) I chalk it up to the game being unfinished.

8th is based off the number of BP you can hold. On the other hand I do admit that could be a change for better gameplay. I do think the PC is of unusually low generation for a new embrace if only because of how rarely characters try to Dominate you (I think it's pretty much just the Prince who makes any attempts).

Although an 8th can be staked by a lucky throw as shown in the opening, my problem is the idea that a Brujah sire doesn't just use Potence to throw the people holding them down after the stake is removed.

Diablerie is the culmination of vampire.
But socially joining a clan with thin-bloodness is the highlight of a career. That's a game-worth of content. You don't eat your way into a clan, that's not how it works. They'd kill you for that. Most princes will have you killed for eating their nemesis of twenty life times.


Easiest way to get a linear story going is to establish a life-debt or a major favour that leads to another. Or maybe your sire's telling you to do things in your best interest... with some dominates thrown in when you don't act in your best interest.

I think the problem is that it's not entirely clear if Clan=political entity or Clan=metaphysical traits is being used. In the first case I totally agree with you, but I think the latter is more likely and thin bloods randomly manifesting a Clan isn't something that happens. Either you inherit your Sire's Clan or you're Clanless. Although I admit I did get a tad confused with Requiem's Revenants.

So yeah, the apparent progression is shovelhead thin blood Caitiff -> Clanned Vampire. Which means that we likely lose at least the thin-blood bit even if we don't get Clan Characteristics.


Although I'm actually a bit annoyed that Vampire is no going to have three games and Werewolf still has none. It's perfect for an RPG brawler even if integrating the five forms might be more difficult than making a horde of vampire powers.