Would TWF Paladin be broken?

[Xayah]

Hi, I personally really like the idea of playing a DEX based Palading wielding dual Scimitars, specifically Oath of Devotion, but was wondering if you guys would consider it broken to add the Two Weapon Fighting fighting style to the class. Obviously it's not included in the list and I assume it is because of the ability to use multiple Smites in one turn, but if that would be broken, would it be wise to house rule the Smites can't be used on an off-hand attack?

[NaughtyTiger]

nothing involving TWF is ever considered broken.

I have allowed in at my table, it was still underwhelming.

[Rerem115]

The opportunity costs of TWF are just too high.

At maximum optimization, you're getting a +5 to damage from TWFS and +1 AC and +1 damage from Dual Wielder. While that sounds good (and it is!), you're giving up classic combinations like PAM+GWM, or PAM+Shieldmaster+Duelist/Defense for the defensively inclined. You gain, on average, maybe 2-3 points of damage by going for TWF over S(pear)&B, and sacrifice at least 1 AC, defensive utility, and become a bit harder to shop for, since you need twice as many weapons.

[Xayah]

Okay yeah, I figured as much, thanks guys! I'm not aiming for this to be some super optimized build, but I still wanted to see if I could mechanically support the idea of a DEX based Paladin with two Scimitars or if I'd be stuck going with Defense! Hope my DM agrees with you all!

[Specter]

The best setup for this is to get a spell that increases your weapons' damage, like Divin Favor or Hunter's Mark, to take advantage of that extra attack. But still, it's not better offensively than GWM, and not better defensively than Shield Master.

Also, you can use multiple smites in one turn.

[Vulsutyr]

For a theoretical character going for smite novas this might be good, but for a normal character it’s not worth it since they live over and entire adventuring day.

[nickl_2000]

For a theoretical character going for smite novas this might be good, but for a normal character it’s not worth it since they live over and entire adventuring day.

But for a smite sorcadin or hexbladadin character, the extra damage from TWF really doesn't matter all that much. Your extra damage comes from spell smites

[Skyblaze]

I've had a stray thought of playing a twf conquest paladin before. Invincible conquerer + 5th lvl bestow curse + hold person + improved divine smites + blowing spell slots on true divine smites. Of course, all that combo works well with any weapon haha.

[stoutstien]

RAW the only way i have been able to get TWF to catch up is stacking at least 3 on hit effects and the static mod from the twf style is only worth it at low lvs and quickly becomes a non-factor. and this still falls behind one hand pam in all regards so no, twf pally wont be broken.

[Xayah]

Well I guess now that the thread is active anyway, are there any recommendations for a Moon Half-Elf Paladin of Devotion to go with? I'll probably pick up Booming Blade as my Wizard cantrip from Moon Half-Elf, which is something (although I gotta say it may not work with TWF depending on DM rule), and assuming I do get TWF fighting style, what spells should I take, what feats should I get? Anything is welcome really.

[Waterdeep Merch]

I'm playing one with that house rule right now. I'm a small race, so GWM was out of the question. After running numbers, I found that I deal substantially more damage than sword n' board with the Dueling Fighting Style pre-5 (with Dex 19, I averaged 15 over 10.5), and getting two attacks really helped make sure I landed important smites/keep damage consistent, which is really the best feature of TWF here. Divine favor also proved a lot more powerful as an opener.

This falls off pretty hard post-5, pre-11. Dueling (with Dex 20 here) was pulling in 23 average against my 25.5, and at that point just getting to use a shield would be way better. Divine favor is still neat, but you start running into circumstances where just busting big smites on alpha strikes becomes preferable. You won't really suffer, but by the numbers, two-weapons are definitively inferior at these levels.

Post-11, things get a little better. You're now at 39 versus dueling's 32, which is a respectable gap. If you ever break the Dex cap (I have!) it gets stronger for you by exactly one point of average damage. Things get a little crappier for you, though when it comes to attunement and magic items unless your DM is fairly nice about it. You need two good weapons versus one to keep your damage high and consistent, and that leaves you with few options for the rest of your kit. I've got two weapons and my armor and I'm completely full up.

I wouldn't take the Dual Wielder feat, it's just not worth it. It's +1 AC, 3 extra damage at best, and solves a 'problem' with weapon drawing you probably didn't really have to begin with.

[Man_Over_Game]

Well I guess now that the thread is active anyway, are there any recommendations for a Moon Half-Elf Paladin of Devotion to go with? I'll probably pick up Booming Blade as my Wizard cantrip from Moon Half-Elf, which is something (although I gotta say it may not work with TWF depending on DM rule), and assuming I do get TWF fighting style, what spells should I take, what feats should I get? Anything is welcome really.

For starters, I wouldn't take Booming Blade with TWF. You can't use both in the same turn. So when you're using Booming Blade, someone else could be getting +2 AC from a shield where you're not getting anything, and they'll still have that +2 AC when attacking normally when you get an extra attack.

The component that I think a LOT of people miss when it comes to TWF is the fact that the stats you use for it are the same ones you use for ranged attacks. TWF is a backup solution for ranged characters to deal with stray mooks who get past the front lines. As a result, a ranged character can almost do as much damage as most melee characters in melee combat, and do infinitely more damage than melee characters in ranged combat.

Devotion, in particular, has a lot of Concentration buffs and can enhance a weapon to have increased accuracy. While it might not be what you were originally looking for, enhancing a Longbow with additional accuracy and maintaining one of your auras while in the middle of your team is an excellent strategy. Swapping over to TWF when your back line needs protecting means that you'll have a good answer to almost any situation.

[stoutstien]

For starters, I wouldn't take Booming Blade with TWF. You can't use both in the same turn. So when you're using Booming Blade, someone else could be getting +2 AC from a shield where you're not getting anything, and they'll still have that +2 AC when attacking normally when you get an extra attack.

The component that I think a LOT of people miss when it comes to TWF is the fact that the stats you use for it are the same ones you use for ranged attacks. TWF is a backup solution for ranged characters to deal with stray mooks who get past the front lines. As a result, a ranged character can almost do as much damage as most melee characters in melee combat, and do infinitely more damage than melee characters in ranged combat.

Devotion, in particular, has a lot of Concentration buffs and can enhance a weapon to have increased accuracy. While it might not be what you were originally looking for, enhancing a Longbow with additional accuracy and maintaining one of your auras while in the middle of your team is an excellent strategy. Swapping over to TWF when your back line needs protecting means that you'll have a good answer to almost any situation.

other than the chance the DM a stickler for only drawing/stowing one weapon as a free item interaction.

[Man_Over_Game]

other than the chance the DM a stickler for only drawing/stowing one weapon as a free item interaction.

Drawing one weapon at a time isn't as big of a deal when the second weapon requires Bonus Actions and you're the only class with Spell Smites. Additionally, most spells require a free hand to cast. The Paladin will likely have something to do to compensate for his missing 1d6 damage for one turn.

[Xayah]

For starters, I wouldn't take Booming Blade with TWF. You can't use both in the same turn. So when you're using Booming Blade, someone else could be getting +2 AC from a shield where you're not getting anything, and they'll still have that +2 AC when attacking normally when you get an extra attack.

The component that I think a LOT of people miss when it comes to TWF is the fact that the stats you use for it are the same ones you use for ranged attacks. TWF is a backup solution for ranged characters to deal with stray mooks who get past the front lines. As a result, a ranged character can almost do as much damage as most melee characters in melee combat, and do infinitely more damage than melee characters in ranged combat.

Devotion, in particular, has a lot of Concentration buffs and can enhance a weapon to have increased accuracy. While it might not be what you were originally looking for, enhancing a Longbow with additional accuracy and maintaining one of your auras while in the middle of your team is an excellent strategy. Swapping over to TWF when your back line needs protecting means that you'll have a good answer to almost any situation.

Yeah I read Booming Blade again as well, that doesn't seem great.
Now, don't get me wrong, I like the Longbow idea mechanically, I think you're right, that'd probably be the best route to go. However, I'm sorry for stretching this out, flavor wise, do you think there's a way to make Devotion TWF viable or should I just accept that if I want my character to be themed the way it is, I give up significant strength? I'm prepared to do that, definitely, but just want to try and make it as optimal as possible, you know?

[stoutstien]

Drawing one weapon at a time isn't as big of a deal when the second weapon requires Bonus Actions and you're the only class with Spell Smites. Additionally, most spells require a free hand to cast. The Paladin will likely have something to do to compensate for his missing 1d6 damage.

so TWF works best if you never actually use two weapons.

[Man_Over_Game]

Yeah I read Booming Blade again as well, that doesn't seem great.
Now, don't get me wrong, I like the Longbow idea mechanically, I think you're right, that'd probably be the best route to go. However, I'm sorry for stretching this out, flavor wise, do you think there's a way to make Devotion TWF viable or should I just accept that if I want my character to be themed the way it is, I give up significant strength? I'm prepared to do that, definitely, but just want to try and make it as optimal as possible, you know?

Relying on Bless or Divine Favor is going to be your best bet. Maybe invest into War Caster to maintain Concentration while on the front lines a bit better. It won't be the "Best of the Best" solution, but it does mean you'll be able to burst down targets quickly if needed with Divine Smite.

You're missing out on like 2 damage a turn. Who cares? As long as you have fun. Someone could just spam GWM and gamble everything on 1-2 hits and be disappointed half of the time, or you can see the benefit of getting Divine Favor blast enemies apart multiple times each turn. What sounds more fun?

so TWF works best if you never actually use two weapons.

Kinda like the Resilience Feats. Best case scenario is that it's never relevant (assuming the TWF is using ranged weapons, many don't and then complain on the forums).

[Waterdeep Merch]

Yeah I read Booming Blade again as well, that doesn't seem great.
Now, don't get me wrong, I like the Longbow idea mechanically, I think you're right, that'd probably be the best route to go. However, I'm sorry for stretching this out, flavor wise, do you think there's a way to make Devotion TWF viable or should I just accept that if I want my character to be themed the way it is, I give up significant strength? I'm prepared to do that, definitely, but just want to try and make it as optimal as possible, you know?

It's absolutely viable, just not as strong as other options. Any buff that effects all of your attacks suddenly becomes slightly more powerful, provided you lead with it (and often you will due to drawing issues), so you can utilize that as a slight advantage.

It's also got some decent synergy with Mobile if you have spare room for that feat. I got it as a 1st level freebie and it's been a godsend.

[Xayah]

Relying on Bless or Divine Favor is going to be your best bet. Maybe invest into War Caster to maintain Concentration while on the front lines a bit better. It won't be the "Best of the Best" solution, but it does mean you'll be able to burst down targets quickly if needed with Divine Smite.

You're missing out on like 2 damage a turn. Who cares? As long as you have fun. Someone could just spam GWM and gamble everything on 1-2 hits and be disappointed half of the time, or you can see the benefit of getting Divine Favor blast enemies apart multiple times each turn. What sounds more fun?



Kinda like the Resilience Feats. Best case scenario is that it's never relevant.

Awesome, thank you very much! I looked at Divine Favor as well, that was looking kinda nice. I'll go beg my DM to let Sacred Weapon work on both Scimitars, and if he says no by following RAW, oh well, I'll just go have fun with my character instead.

[stoutstien]

how i would build a H-elf twf pally:
focus on dex>cha>con>

free cantrip would be pure utility. mage hand or minor illusion is always nice

take defense style. 1 ac will treat you better than ~5 damage once a round.

low lvs con on divine favor then crusader mantle if you have a few party members that can benefit. monks, fighters, and summons can boost this slot damage way up.

if you want to be tankish two weapon fighting feat can net 1 more AC and ~1 damage a turn or mobile if you want to have a striker feel.

[NaughtyTiger]

silly question,but is your DM open to stuff from Eberron UA?

the double scimitar and associated half-feat was the talk of the town when it came out, but all has gone quiet recently.

[Yunru]

Hi, I personally really like the idea of playing a DEX based Palading wielding dual Scimitars, specifically Oath of Devotion, but was wondering if you guys would consider it broken to add the Two Weapon Fighting fighting style to the class. Obviously it's not included in the list and I assume it is because of the ability to use multiple Smites in one turn, but if that would be broken, would it be wise to house rule the Smites can't be used on an off-hand attack?

Umm... you already can?
All the fighting style does is add your stat modifier.

[Xayah]

silly question,but is your DM open to stuff from Eberron UA?

the double scimitar and associated half-feat was the talk of the town when it came out, but all has gone quiet recently.

Eberron isn't UA anymore, but I did look at the Double Scimitar for a bit. Unfortunately, the feat requires Elf now (so no Half-Elfs), and without it, the weapon isn't Finesse, which means I can't use it with a DEX Pally. I appreciate the advice though!

Umm... you already can?
All the fighting style does is add your stat modifier.

Yeah, but I was looking to see if I could add TWF to make it a bit stronger, as two weapon fighting without the fighting style is pretty bad

[NaughtyTiger]

Eberron isn't UA anymore, but I did look at the Double Scimitar for a bit. Unfortunately, the feat requires Elf now (so no Half-Elfs), and without it, the weapon isn't Finesse, which means I can't use it with a DEX Pally. I appreciate the advice though!

ah, i missed that it was full elf. (bladesinger and elf racial feats are open to half-elf, so i don't feel too bad about being wrong)

[dgnslyr]

But for a smite sorcadin or hexbladadin character, the extra damage from TWF really doesn't matter all that much. Your extra damage comes from spell smites

On the other hand, more attack rolls means more chances to hit and crit. Finding those crit-smite moneyshots makes a huge difference, so having more dice to roll can help in that regard, since with this kind of build the weapon damage itself is kind of irrelevant.

That said, I think Polearm Master is a better way of accomplishing the same goal, since you can retain use of your shield among other things, but that also costs a feat, so TWF isn't completely useless.

[Misterwhisper]

Since the introduction of the double blades scimitar and the revenant blade feat, yes TWF is completely useless.

[djreynolds]

Well you only need a 13 in strength and 13 charisma to multiclass and wear chainmail also.

Just grab some fighter levels. In fact you don't have to be dex based to TWF or dual wield scimitars.

Go strength based, grab fighter, but 13/15/12/8/10/14.. is very doable

[Citan]

Hi, I personally really like the idea of playing a DEX based Palading wielding dual Scimitars, specifically Oath of Devotion, but was wondering if you guys would consider it broken to add the Two Weapon Fighting fighting style to the class. Obviously it's not included in the list and I assume it is because of the ability to use multiple Smites in one turn, but if that would be broken, would it be wise to house rule the Smites can't be used on an off-hand attack?

It's note overpowered.

It's just very good, as long as you know how to play its strength. If you play it as you would a sword&board, then it will be just good enough, or below.

True strength of dual-wielding is versatility, aka much, MUCH better positioning depending on the situation.

Reasons they didn't put it on Paladin list is probably not a balance reason (sure, you can nova smite, but it still costs resources! You're simply blowing your steam faster, it won't make any decisive difference until mid/high levels).
Rather a "not fitting traditional trope" reason, or "no real necessity" reason: Paladins tend to try and aggro enemies since they are amongst the most resilient people in the first place. So ability to fight as good from 5 feet as from 30 feet is less important.
Also, as a DEX build, you can without too much difficulty switch to "real long range" so this is another reason less for going TWF.
As for spells, unless you want to use exclusive spells, most of Paladin spells are Verbal only, and you can engrave a focus on a shield when going sword and board, so there is no real incentive to go DEX either.

In short, you certainly won't be underpowered by going TWF as Dex build, but you won't really take advantage of its benefit either unless you just dislike crossbows and bows for some reason.

Well I guess now that the thread is active anyway, are there any recommendations for a Moon Half-Elf Paladin of Devotion to go with? I'll probably pick up Booming Blade as my Wizard cantrip from Moon Half-Elf, which is something (although I gotta say it may not work with TWF depending on DM rule), and assuming I do get TWF fighting style, what spells should I take, what feats should I get? Anything is welcome really.

Well, in that case, I would actually even advise against TWF.
You simply have too much weighing on "single weapon": Sacred Weapon affects only one weapon, and Booming Blade is "casting a spell" so cannot trigger bonus action weapon attack.

Unless your DM houserules otherwise (which would be a significant powerboost but still within reason imo), you'd risk taking a Fighting Style that you'd really benefit only rarely.

In that way, you'd better pick another more generalist style (like Defense) and simply go dual-wielding when you feel it's useful right at that moment. Loss of +3 / +4 is not a big deal when it's an occasional thing. :=)

[Mitsu]

Wanna see broken? Make Vengeance Paladin Half-Elf with PAM and use Spear/Staff + Shield and dip 1 level Hexblade for SAD CHA. ASI: Level 4 - Elven Accuracy, Level 9- PAM, level 13- War Caster.

Vuman will work too, with PAM at 1st level, +2 CHA at 4th, War Caster at 9th and +2 CHA at 13.

Enjoy +2 AC from shield, triple advantage, bonus attack for free, IDS, Shield spell, Curse and if you dip 2 levels- a great range attack.

Even better, convience your DM to use Spell Point variant intead of slots and you have definition of being broken.

Ow, and if you want to bully your DM or make him commit sepuku- summon Pegasus on level 13, buy him plating barring and use Haste on Him and yourself. As Vuman don't forget to grab Mounted Combatant too.

TWF Paladin is hardly even a semi-competetive vs PAM Shield n Spear or PAM GWM build for Paladin....

I would even say- yes, play TWF because you will be more balanced and you just nerfed yourself :)

[JoeJ]

Since the introduction of the double blades scimitar and the revenant blade feat, yes TWF is completely useless.

Don't those only exist in Eberron?