Avengers: Endgame Discussion Thread

[Reddish Mage]

No need, alternate timelines are Someone Elses's Problem. The reason they returned the stones is because Alternate Timeline Anceient One is one of the someones who has to deal, and bargained to have the stone returned.

There's five major timelies now:
Main canon: Stones destroyed, 5 years, unsnap.
Loki Escapes: Battle of New York, Hydra believes Captian is a hydra agent, ect.
Thor 2 Remake: The events of Thor 2 are subtly altered, but we dont see the new direction they take. Lots of opportunity there.
Thanos abandons the hunt for the stones: Invades main timeline, never returns. Power vacuum.
Captian Retires in the Past: After stealing pym particles, Captian retires as the husband of the Director of Shield. Insider knowelege of Ancient one, Hydra, Winter Soldier, Ballroom/Black Widow, Mar-Vel, ect. mean that Shield is much better off than the main canon.

The level of carelessness that the Avengers shows for all these timelines is actually only...five of the potential disasters they create. You have to count the main timeline because, in all fairness, bringing people back 5 years after death is bound to cause a number of political, social, economic, familial, legal, and other problems.

How many people could just disappear for five years and expect everything to remain the same for them? Job? Property? Family? Friends? ...what about their education being five years out of date? Apparently it works out just fine for the Black Panther and Peter Parker...

I also note that Cap retiring in the past is a new timeline only in the Russo version, in the writer's idea of it, Cap goes into the main timeline's past and Peggy's husband mentioned in the earlier movies was always the returned Steve Rogers.

One possibility is that the alternative timelines spawn the new the Phase 4 threats. Yep, the Avengers were careless and made a mess of time and space in Endgame.

Spoiler: Spider-man Far From Home Trailer and Speculation

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The trailer tells us that Mysterio is from an "alternate dimension" so he could be one of them.

[archon_huskie]

Cap's time travel to Peggy as envisioned by the Russo's is that he went to an alternate 1940's after he returned everything and lived out his life there. when he was old, he used his bracelet to return to main timeline 2023. This follows the established rules established in Endgame.

The other option, that I want to believe is that Cap was able to return to the past and live out his life with Peggy in the main timeline. And the only way he could do this was by not altering ANYTHING. For this to work, Cap has to always have been Peggy's husband. This is a stretch of the established rules of time travel.

But there is some evidence that this could work. First, Peggy's husband was never named on screen. Second, Cap did not see any pictures of her husband on her desk when time traveling in 1970. Third, he only saw pictures of himself on that desk.

Like I said, I want to believe it, but I think the Russo's version is the simpler version.

[Devonix]

Cap's time travel to Peggy as envisioned by the Russo's is that he went to an alternate 1940's after he returned everything and lived out his life there. when he was old, he used his bracelet to return to main timeline 2023. This follows the established rules established in Endgame.

The other option, that I want to believe is that Cap was able to return to the past and live out his life with Peggy in the main timeline. And the only way he could do this was by not altering ANYTHING. For this to work, Cap has to always have been Peggy's husband. This is a stretch of the established rules of time travel.

But there is some evidence that this could work. First, Peggy's husband was never named on screen. Second, Cap did not see any pictures of her husband on her desk when time traveling in 1970. Third, he only saw pictures of himself on that desk.

Like I said, I want to believe it, but I think the Russo's version is the simpler version.

The second version is what the script writers said happened.

[archon_huskie]

One possibility is that the alternative timelines spawn the new the Phase 4 threats. Yep, the Avengers were careless and made a mess of time and space in Endgame.

Spoiler: Spider-man Far From Home Trailer and Speculation

Show

The trailer tells us that Mysterio is from an "alternate dimension" so he could be one of them.

I like this idea, but I think that the mess was made by Thanos destroying the infinity stones not the Avengers' time travel.

[deuterio12]

I like this idea, but I think that the mess was made by Thanos destroying the infinity stones not the Avengers' time travel.

Why not both?

[Cikomyr]

There is something to be said about the Avengers' allegedly willingness to let other universes be destroyed by stealing their stones.

1- they did not knew the time stone was primordial to the Defense of earth
2- the stones being stolen from an alternate timeline would prevent the Thanks from ever gathering them. So that's a +

[tomandtish]

There's a big drop off reported last week, probably not going to make it due to the good movies coming up. Avatar had easier competition, and may have been rereleased to boost earnings

John Wick beat it out last weekend.

[Hopeless]

I went to watch this today.

Spoiler

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I'm more inclined to believe he established a new identity before he married Peggy, but the fact he didn't return to the platform is why I believe he asked the Ancient One to return him to the 40's with the time stone the last infinity stone he returned.
That was so he could restore the Sceptre, the Tesseract and the Power Gem also rewinding time so Quill didn't know he had been bushwacked.

Look at it this way if they ever went back for a third season of Agent Carter we might have a disguised Cap helping Peggy & Jarvis!

He only has to keep his true identity secret only Peggy would eventually find out.

The real question is his new identity, I suspect he'll retire once the general tech level rises high enough to make that nearly impossible to continue.

[Giggling Ghast]

How many people could just disappear for five years and expect everything to remain the same for them? Job? Property? Family? Friends? ...what about their education being five years out of date?

There would certainly be massive implications for returning all those who were Snapped out of existence, but I think a vast majority of those left behind would agree that it's the right thing to do.

[Ranxerox]

There would certainly be massive implications for returning all those who were Snapped out of existence, but I think a vast majority of those left behind would agree that it's the right thing to do.

Hell, yes. Even if I had moved on and remarried, I would be overjoyed to have my formerly deceased wife alive no matter how complicated and awkward the situation might be; and to get a lost child back would be nothing short of a miracle.

[Maloney]

Hell, yes. Even if I had moved on and remarried, I would be overjoyed to have my formerly deceased wife alive no matter how complicated and awkward the situation might be; and to get a lost child back would be nothing short of a miracle.

cap macked on his daughter

[LibraryOgre]

cap macked on his daughter

Niece, I believe.

[archon_huskie]

Another thought,

There's another timeline. The one where Hawkeye did the first test. It is identical to the Main timeline except that it is missing one baseball glove.

So because it is essentially identical to the main MCU timeline, it will create the same timelines that the main MCU timelines created.

Main canon: Stones destroyed, 5 years, unsnap.
New York time line: Loki Escapes: Battle of New York, Hydra believes Captian is a hydra agent, ect.
Asgard time line: Thor 2 Remake: The events of Thor 2 are subtly altered, but we dont see the new direction they take. Lots of opportunity there.
Vorimir and GotG1 timeline: Thanos abandons the hunt for the stones: Invades main timeline, never returns. Power vacuum.
Captian Retires in the Past Time line:

Hawkeye timeline identical to Main minus a glove
New York time line: Loki Escapes: Battle of New York, Hydra believes Captian is a hydra agent, ect.
Asgard time line: Thor 2 Remake: The events of Thor 2 are subtly altered, but we dont see the new direction they take. Lots of opportunity there.
Vorimir and GotG1 timeline: Thanos abandons the hunt for the stones: Invades main timeline, never returns. Power vacuum.
Captian Retires in the Past Time line:


Now what if the Main Cap retired in the past of the Hawkeye timeline and the Cap of the Hawkeye time line retired in the past of the Main timeline. This way, both the Russo's and the script writers versions is true.

[Rakaydos]

Another thought,

There's another timeline. The one where Hawkeye did the first test. It is identical to the Main timeline except that it is missing one baseball glove.

So because it is essentially identical to the main MCU timeline, it will create the same timelines that the main MCU timelines created.

Main canon: Stones destroyed, 5 years, unsnap.
New York time line: Loki Escapes: Battle of New York, Hydra believes Captian is a hydra agent, ect.
Asgard time line: Thor 2 Remake: The events of Thor 2 are subtly altered, but we dont see the new direction they take. Lots of opportunity there.
Vorimir and GotG1 timeline: Thanos abandons the hunt for the stones: Invades main timeline, never returns. Power vacuum.
Captian Retires in the Past Time line:

Hawkeye timeline identical to Main minus a glove
New York time line: Loki Escapes: Battle of New York, Hydra believes Captian is a hydra agent, ect.
Asgard time line: Thor 2 Remake: The events of Thor 2 are subtly altered, but we dont see the new direction they take. Lots of opportunity there.
Vorimir and GotG1 timeline: Thanos abandons the hunt for the stones: Invades main timeline, never returns. Power vacuum.
Captian Retires in the Past Time line:


Now what if the Main Cap retired in the past of the Hawkeye timeline and the Cap of the Hawkeye time line retired in the past of the Main timeline. This way, both the Russo's and the script writers versions is true.

The problem with this theory is that the snap is always a true random, which means it doesnt matter how similar the timelines are, differet people will be snapped in each one. That throws any "parallel universe" out of whack after Infinity War, no matter how close it was before infinity war.

[Draconi Redfir]

The problem with this theory is that the snap is always a true random, which means it doesnt matter how similar the timelines are, differet people will be snapped in each one. That throws any "parallel universe" out of whack after Infinity War, no matter how close it was before infinity war.

i mean odds and chances are weird. if i hold a coin, there's a 50% chance that if flipped, it will land heads. but if i flip the coin and it lands tails, then that means there was a 100% chance that it would land tails, because that's exactly what it did.

so maybe because they are coming from a timeline in wich X people were snapped off, that means those same people all have a 100% chance of being snapped?

it's weird when you take time travel into account i guess.

[deuterio12]

Hell, yes. Even if I had moved on and remarried, I would be overjoyed to have my formerly deceased wife alive no matter how complicated and awkward the situation might be; and to get a lost child back would be nothing short of a miracle.

Sure, you would love to see your loved ones back.

But what the other way around? Like a young kid/baby who never got to properly know their snapped parent and grew up with somebody else, then suddenly there's this stranger that wants to take them from their adoptive parents that were the ones providing them with care and love for the last 5 years??

And what about your not-so-loved ones? Certainly a lot of people were happy to see their hated ones get snapped, in particular if they got a nice inheritance out of it. And now they come back going "give me back my money/house".

Or even more complicated, heads of state and company bosses and whatnot? A lot of people were promoted to position of power that were made empty by the Snap, and a non-insignificant number will resist giving up those positions of power while many others will seek to reclaim said positions of power. That's a dangerous chance of civil war right there if not nuclear war.

[Rakaydos]

i mean odds and chances are weird. if i hold a coin, there's a 50% chance that if flipped, it will land heads. but if i flip the coin and it lands tails, then that means there was a 100% chance that it would land tails, because that's exactly what it did.

so maybe because they are coming from a timeline in wich X people were snapped off, that means those same people all have a 100% chance of being snapped?

it's weird when you take time travel into account i guess.

That's a seeded random, like computers use. Not a true random. It doesn't matter what your excuse is, a true random is ALWAYS different.

Fortunately DR Strange could tool-assisted-speedrun to the correct random value in our universe, but the amount of butterfly flapping needed is rediculus, and will result in an entirely different Infinity War final battle.

[Cikomyr]

That's a seeded random, like computers use. Not a true random. It doesn't matter what your excuse is, a true random is ALWAYS different.

Fortunately DR Strange could tool-assisted-speedrun to the correct random value in our universe, but the amount of butterfly flapping needed is rediculus, and will result in an entirely different Infinity War final battle.

Look at it this way. In any timeline, Dr Strange would use the time stone to see the future to enable the 1 in 14,000,008 success chance.

He knows what is necessary to win this. He knows who needs to be there and survive the Snap (Tony and Pots have to live, Ant Man supporting cast has to die, etc..)

Maybe he can.. Determine the upcoming random seed to make sure the dice will fall the right way?

[Rakaydos]

Look at it this way. In any timeline, Dr Strange would use the time stone to see the future to enable the 1 in 14,000,008 success chance.

He knows what is necessary to win this. He knows who needs to be there and survive the Snap (Tony and Pots have to live, Ant Man supporting cast has to die, etc..)

Maybe he can.. Determine the upcoming random seed to make sure the dice will fall the right way?

He can, but the permutations needed to pull it off will be different.

[Cikomyr]

He can, but the permutations needed to pull it off will be different.

But the point is that in every timeline, the time stone will allow Strange to see what's the hand he has to throw down to make it work. So he can make sure events happen that way.

[Rakaydos]

But the point is that in every timeline, the time stone will allow Strange to see what's the hand he has to throw down to make it work. So he can make sure events happen that way.

Though he's limited to the actions he can take while on Titan. And even ignoring the snap, there's a lot of moving parts back on earth that have to happen right after Thanos teleports to earth, before the snap.

How tragic would it be if that baseball glove led to a timeline where Strange failed and OG Thanos won? (thus avoiding the confusion of doubled alternate timelines, including a doubled thanos invasion and doubled thanos-empty timeline)

[Cikomyr]

Though he's limited to the actions he can take while on Titan. And even ignoring the snap, there's a lot of moving parts back on earth that have to happen right after Thanos teleports to earth, before the snap.

How tragic would it be if that baseball glove led to a timeline where Strange failed and OG Thanos won? (thus avoiding the confusion of doubled alternate timelines, including a doubled thanos invasion and doubled thanos-empty timeline)

But Strange can only see the consequences of the choices he makes. Part of these choices is obviously sharing information.

So basically, from his futureseeing perspective, these events are locked until he can change them (via Thanos intervening).

For example, Strange gave the stone to Thanos at a specific time, in a specific way. Maybe that was meant to influence the random seed of the Snap.

[Rakaydos]

But Strange can only see the consequences of the choices he makes. Part of these choices is obviously sharing information.

So basically, from his futureseeing perspective, these events are locked until he can change them (via Thanos intervening).

For example, Strange gave the stone to Thanos at a specific time, in a specific way. Maybe that was meant to influence the random seed of the Snap.

But handing the stone at that time was also influencing pre-snap events. How would Endgame have been different if Thor showed up on Earth clearly too late to stop the snap? No "should have aimed for the head" moment. Or worse, the snap happened before Thor's ax was finished?

[Cikomyr]

But handing the stone at that time was also influencing pre-snap events. How would Endgame have been different if Thor showed up on Earth clearly too late to stop the snap? No "should have aimed for the head" moment. Or worse, the snap happened before Thor's ax was finished?

The Dr Strange of that timeline will know of the upcoming certainties (like Thor arriving at Time Z), and will therefore act in a way that will guarantee the Snap Random Seed that will allow for a potential victory.

Strange and the Time Stone is what allows us to know the snap will always give out the right people.

[Rodin]

I always assumed that Strange giving the stone to Thanos the way he did was in order to trick him and ensure Stark lived. Because those are the two important parts from that fight - nobody else on the planet matters apart from Stark and Nebula, because they all get snapped. Stark is super important because Strange has seen the future and has seen that he's needed both for the time travel to work but also to snap Thanos.

So, Strange gives his all without using the Time Stone to make Thanos think he's trying to hide it, then bargains for Stark's life to make sure he lives. He also knows that Stark will get that something was...*ahem*...STRANGE about it because of their earlier conversations about "I will sacrifice all of you to protect the stone". At the same time, he can't come out and tell Stark that something is up, because the good result comes about only after 5 years of despair.

It's all carefully calculated, and presumably he would act differently if events transpired differently as long as Stark and Ant-Man don't get snapped. It could just come down to a coin flip - if Stark is due to get snapped in that universe, Strange would just go "we're boned" and maybe try something desperate with the Time Stone. It's hard to say.

[Rakaydos]

Speaking of carfully calculated...

The snap has to happen during a 20 second span, while Ant Man is in the Quantum Realm on completely unrelated buisness. The snap has to take out all 3 of Ant man's on-site support structure, and presumanly Wraith as well to keep her from hunting down the machine that was supposed to be making her cure- if any of them survive, ant man will return far too soon. Stark has to survive, Thor has to survive to hold off thanos for the reinforcements to arrive and to give Cap the hammer, Cap has to survive to pick up the hammer and also hold off thanos until all the snapped reinforcements slingring in from Wakanda. (most of them were "just a minute ago" in a battle- it's suprising they were able to remake their formations that well that quickly.) Plus Hulk to believe in time travel and do the actual unsnapping.

Even assuming ant man gets a pass (quantum realm perhaps not being in our universe and so being out of the range of the snap), thats 8 people who have to survive or have to be dusted, a .5^8 chance (1/256), while still hitting the narrow time band where Ant Man gets trapped in the quantum realm. Never mind the lesser shenanians of making sure the rat lets him out while everyone's still around and willing to change the past.

[Anteros]

Speaking of carfully calculated...

The snap has to happen during a 20 second span, while Ant Man is in the Quantum Realm on completely unrelated buisness. The snap has to take out all 3 of Ant man's on-site support structure, and presumanly Wraith as well to keep her from hunting down the machine that was supposed to be making her cure- if any of them survive, ant man will return far too soon. Stark has to survive, Thor has to survive to hold off thanos for the reinforcements to arrive and to give Cap the hammer, Cap has to survive to pick up the hammer and also hold off thanos until all the snapped reinforcements slingring in from Wakanda. (most of them were "just a minute ago" in a battle- it's suprising they were able to remake their formations that well that quickly.) Plus Hulk to believe in time travel and do the actual unsnapping.

Even assuming ant man gets a pass (quantum realm perhaps not being in our universe and so being out of the range of the snap), thats 8 people who have to survive or have to be dusted, a .5^8 chance (1/256), while still hitting the narrow time band where Ant Man gets trapped in the quantum realm. Never mind the lesser shenanians of making sure the rat lets him out while everyone's still around and willing to change the past.

Not necessarily though. That's just how they won in this particular instance. Presumably if some other combination of people got snapped there would have been a way for them to win with those remaining as well.

[The Glyphstone]

Not necessarily though. That's just how they won in this particular instance. Presumably if some other combination of people got snapped there would have been a way for them to win with those remaining as well.

That requires a more flexible interpretation of Strange's discussion with Stark, though.

"How many futures do we win in?"
"One".

Not impossible, but Strange seems to imply a very specific set of actions and events needs to occur to bring about the Good Ending.

[Anteros]

That requires a more flexible interpretation of Strange's discussion with Stark, though.

"How many futures do we win in?"
"One".

Not impossible, but Strange seems to imply a very specific set of actions and events needs to occur to bring about the Good Ending.

Not really though. It just means that Strange can see who is going to get snapped. If that were to change the other possible futures would change as well.

[Zevox]

Not really though. It just means that Strange can see who is going to get snapped. If that were to change the other possible futures would change as well.

I don't see why you're assuming that Strange is seeing only futures in which the same set of people are killed in the Snap, rather than many possible combinations? He said he saw millions of possible futures, so the latter seems far more likely just based off that alone.