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  1. - Top - End - #91
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    DrowGuy

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    Default Re: Avengers: Endgame Discussion Thread

    I'm going to see it early Saturday morning and I'll give you my review until then.

  2. - Top - End - #92
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    Default Re: Avengers: Endgame Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Paleomancer View Post
    Just curious... Is Endgame anything like Infinity War? Because I found it unwatchable, as in I honestly couldn't finish watching the film - Thanos is so annoying, and the whole Avengers dysfunction was maddening. I guess what I'm asking is, if if I didn't like Avengers 3, should I give Avengers 4 a miss?
    It is a different movie, but yes it has things in common with Infinity War.

    To me Infinity War was a constant climb. It was a two act movie in a 160 minute story. Literally the 2nd act is 2 hours long. No time to breathe.

    Endgame is like a candle going out, it is a relationship of extinguishment. Like a candle that used to be a tall taper and is now disheveled mess, but the candle is now changing the wax in a slow and more methodical way, interweaving lots of sentiment (what some people call nostalgia) inside the movie before arriving at the end of the story.

    There is more cooperation in this movie, and the movie is half a heist film, but part of a heist film is things do not always go according to plan. So think 1/3rd conflict and rising action, 1/3rd sentiment, 1/3rd heist mechanics. While Infinity War is more like 80% rising action and 10% + 10% the other two each.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rodin View Post
    I was actually very glad it wasn't another Guardians movie, as I saw GotG2 show up on Netflix and started watching again and wound up turning it off after about half an hour. It was altogether too goofy and the humour felt forced on a re-watch. Endgame was a much more serious movie, and I feel it was better for it.
    *Cringe*, you are allowed to like what you like, but some of us are built differently I am with Lindsay Ellis on my movie taste buds where "so serious" in movies lose some of the fun, while "goofy and humor" is what makes action movies a delight. It is alright for action movies to have some camp elements, that is what made Star Wars so popular and why other action universes never get off the ground.

    Just a reminder that movies are both a collaborate thing where there is not 1 storyteller with a movie, but also the opposite where there is not a single audience with a large movie. People have different tastes and things they enjoy in the movies.
    Last edited by Ramza00; 2019-04-25 at 04:19 PM.
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  3. - Top - End - #93
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    Default Re: Avengers: Endgame Discussion Thread

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    At first I kind of felt like the movie was a bit to funny. Around the time the adrenaline spike from Cap wielding Mjolnir left me and Cap is about to walk to sure death against Thanos I started to cry just a little. Then everyone started showing up for the big battle and I was just openly crying entire big fight scene but I literally couldn’t look away. Movie is so good that I’ve run out of words.
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  4. - Top - End - #94
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    GnomeWizardGuy

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    Default Re: Avengers: Endgame Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Ramza00 View Post
    *Cringe*, you are allowed to like what you like, but some of us are built differently I am with Lindsay Ellis on my movie taste buds where "so serious" in movies lose some of the fun, while "goofy and humor" is what makes action movies a delight. It is alright for action movies to have some camp elements, that is what made Star Wars so popular and why other action universes never get off the ground.

    Just a reminder that movies are both a collaborate thing where there is not 1 storyteller with a movie, but also the opposite where there is not a single audience with a large movie. People have different tastes and things they enjoy in the movies.
    Sure, and your posts yet again remind me that two people can go to the same screening and see entirely different movies. For myself, there was plenty of humor to keep the story from getting too dark while not ruining the serious side of the story like Ragnarok did.

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    It seems like you didn't like the nostalgia and sentiment in the movie, but I found it to be fantastic. Everybody had their dead pool going into the movie, and it doesn't pretend that any of the original Avengers will return afterwards. We see how beaten down and exhausted Tony is, how Cap doesn't know how to move on even now. Endgame was a swansong for all of the original Avengers, and I thought it accomplished that magnificently.

    Rather than a candle, it was more of a torch. The torch was burning down and guttering out, as the original Avengers were. Then at the hour of need, it's re-kindled, and all of the allies they've made over the years come in to support them. Then, they hand the torch off to the next generation.

  5. - Top - End - #95
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    Lizardfolk

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    Default Re: Avengers: Endgame Discussion Thread

    Just got back, I thought it was pretty decent with a few exceptions.

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    I thought the end fight dragged on. It mostly just repeated the Wakanda fight from the last movie, and this movie really didn't need padding.
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  6. - Top - End - #96
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    Default Re: Avengers: Endgame Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Tvtyrant View Post
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    I thought the end fight dragged on. It mostly just repeated the Wakanda fight from the last movie, and this movie really didn't need padding.
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    I generally agree. I think they felt obligated to let everyone who showed up have a moment, but when you're talking about something like 50 people, that's too many moments. but I suppose no one wants to show up for the film, do all the makeup and costuming, to only be in the group shot. It will be interesting to see how they manage the somewhat overwhelming stable of heroes in future big crossover movies.
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  7. - Top - End - #97
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    GnomeWizardGuy

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mechalich View Post
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    I generally agree. I think they felt obligated to let everyone who showed up have a moment, but when you're talking about something like 50 people, that's too many moments. but I suppose no one wants to show up for the film, do all the makeup and costuming, to only be in the group shot. It will be interesting to see how they manage the somewhat overwhelming stable of heroes in future big crossover movies.
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    Well, they did trim the stable a fair bit with Infinity War and Endgame.

    Stark - dead.
    Black Widow - dead.
    Captain America - old man, retired.
    Hawkeye - pretty clearly retired to his farm in the country unless something really drastic happens. Given that "not drastic enough" included the events of Infinity War, I think he's out.
    Thor - officially hung up the hammer and passed rulership to Valkyrie.
    Hulk - having found happiness as Big Green, his character arc is clearly over and he's likely only to cameo if a super-scientist is needed.

    That's the entire original Avengers stable out, as far as I can tell. We're also down Loki and Vision, neither of whom were killed by the Snap and were not brought back. Gamora is also missing, as the original stayed dead and I'm betting the plot of GotG3 will be "The Quest For Gamora".

    I think it's likely that the rate of new heroes will slow, at least for a while. In terms of new movies coming out, the ones I'm aware of are:

    Black Widow - it's a prequel, so unlikely to get new heroes here. Sure, Captain Marvel was a prequel too, but that's a bit different.
    Dr Strange 2
    Spiderman 2
    Black Panther 2
    Guardians of the Galaxy 3.

    We also have several successors to look out for - with Falcon getting Cap's shield, I think he's a lock for his own movie. Valkyrie I'm less sure of, but still quite possible. It's not clear who will fill Stark and Banner's role as "the smart guy". Spiderman maybe?

    Of course, there is the complication that Disney now has full control of the Marvel stable, and will probably want to bring both the X-Men and Fantastic 4 into the MCU. I'm not sure how I feel about that, especially the X-Men. Because of how the X-Men work, they need to have existed for the past 20 years at least. That is totally incompatible with the MCU on a fundamental level, and I have no clue how you would go about reconciling an entire sub-species of human having been around for the entirety of the MCU without anybody knowing about them.

  8. - Top - End - #98
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    WolfInSheepsClothing

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    Default Re: Avengers: Endgame Discussion Thread

    So quick non spoiler thoughts are that the film does manage to live upto expectations, there are some issues but they are overwhelmed by the good. It is also one of those films you should really watch in the cinema as well.

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    So the final battle was very satisfying but I do agree with some of the above in that it does go on for to long, which is one of my issues for the film in that it is a very long film. I don't really know how they could have done it differently considering what they had to do.

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    So Thor is part of the GoG now? Are Gamora and Blue girl still part of them (While I can't remember blue girls name I'm surprised how much of a part she has become of the universe since her first film and I do like her character.)

    Starrks death was great and a hell of a way to end the character while I liked Potts in the armour I hope she doesn't take up the mantel and just has a quiet life with her kid just because I want them to have an ending.

    I'm not sure if Hulk is going to be coming back, I could see him running mission control like Black Widow did during this film but could just as easily see him bowing out.

    One question had was who was that kid at starks funeral, he was standing alone near the back so was obviously someone but I had no idea who he was.

    Quite funnily the garden scene got a reaction of complete silence in my cinema followed by one guy going "What?" quietly but the cinema was so silent it carried the whole way which was I would guess the directors intent.

  9. - Top - End - #99
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    Default Re: Avengers: Endgame Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Spacewolf View Post
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    One question had was who was that kid at starks funeral, he was standing alone near the back so was obviously someone but I had no idea who he was.
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    Word I've heard is people caught his name in the credits and it's the actual kid from IM3. Looking it up, that seems to be correct. Ty Simpkins playing Harley Keener.

  10. - Top - End - #100
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    Default Re: Avengers: Endgame Discussion Thread

    I saw it yesterday. I thought it was really good.
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    Oh god it was so sad...
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  11. - Top - End - #101
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    Default Re: Avengers: Endgame Discussion Thread

    Weird freaking movie. It was amazing, but really weird. It was working overtime to do callbacks and resolve people's character arcs, but I am not sure how much of its narrative stands up on its own. First Marvel movie that I have no idea how to score.

    The number of cameos was truly mind-boggling.

    Personally peeved they could get the kid from Iron Man 3 back but no Liv Tyler or Kat Denning, but I am sure that's just me.


    Also, no post-credit scene. Weird.
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  12. - Top - End - #102
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    Default Re: Avengers: Endgame Discussion Thread

    A lot of thoughts.

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    Overall...I enjoyed it. I'd enjoy it more if I got to see Infinity War before going to see it. It really feels like it's missing that whole set up. Obviously it's designed that way but I was expecting a little more...oh...I don't know...cushion around it.

    The plot was a bit messy at the start, splitting it up across all the time points with the needed exposition really pulled the thing all over the place. Not all bad, a lot of really good callbacks and for the most part it was all enjoyable. The humor felt a little out of place but it's Marvel so you should expect that. I enjoyed the five year time skip though that raises some questions. The people who disappeared are brought back at the same age they were when they got dusted as far as we're told. That means that a lot of people have just moved on in life from their old friends and there are all these new people they're going to have to learn about.

    You can see this with Antman and his kid who is now all grown up. That means that while Peter and his friends (who all got dusted presumably) are in the same grade the people they'd have been in school with have graduated and are in college or doing other things. Half of the school or more, we've no idea. That's...probably not going to be addressed in the next Spiderman movie though I for one would be super thrilled if they did bring it up. Also all those memorials are going to have to be taken down one would imagine. Or just left and have another monument for the people who returned. It's a quibble but again probably never going to be discussed but these are the sorts of things the movie just hand waves away.

    So pacing and the one thought demon out of the way.

    Characters were all pretty good. It was nice to give most of the cast who didn't get a role in the last movie some time to breath and do their thing. Nebula gets a lot of importance and I feel like we've finally set her story to rest. Obviously Gamora is going to be a part of the next GG movie but maybe with Thor alongside we'll get to see some more zany hijinks from the crew. Who knows how that'll all pan out but it does seem like this was The Plan so to speak.

    Captain Marvel really doesn't do a whole lot and isn't in much of the movie. A shame, but she's pretty bad ass when she is around and seeing Thanos smack her around is satisfying in that it puts a lot of the "she's too strong" arguments to rest. Antman and Prof Hulk were good and fat shut in Thor was cute. Hawkeye was totally understandable and it was sorta his movie too. They really sold him on just wanting to settle down and be done with it all. Black Widow....

    Man but did that first death feel unearned. Black Widow dying just felt...meh. Like, I understand that that's how the Soul Stone works but I just feel there was some other way to do it. They have this scene in the big fight where all the girls form up and kick butt in a serious way but none of it really makes me feel better that they just killed off the first female Avenger and it really only served to make everyone sad for a bit and give "do it for her" bit at the very end. Not like I expected Hawkeye to die...I guess unearned really is the best way to put it.

    Stark's death was done perfectly. A great send off to the character that set this whole thing in motion. Stark is the shining star of the movie imho, clever and so tortured throughout. I honestly expected more, I'd guessed that Captain America was at least on the chopping block. He sorta was, we get to see him live a happy life and settle his score by the end. It's so weird that Bucky doesn't have a whole lot to do in this movie, he just sorta shows up and is quiet for the few bits where death isn't raining from the sky.

    The final battle is really all I have left to cover and man. Seeing Cap with the hammer was epic. I actually started to tear up when the heroes all started to army up and charge. It was worth the wait seeing. It was as messy and chaotic and thrilling and maddening all in one and it was great. I look forward to seeing it at least two more times with various groups of people who have to wait until next week so I can really dig my teeth into it. A highlight, already mentioned, was when all the Mamabears formed up around Spider Man and kicked ass. It probably wasn't meant to be adorable but I certainly took it that way.

    They crammed a lot in and a lot of characters just kinda are there. I'm not even sure most have speaking lines. Which is totally understandable. There's like 30 big names all in once place and it's the climax of the movie. Hopefully whatever storyline they're doing to tie up the second phase of characters is a little more compact and can be handled in a single movie.


    tl;dr - It was great. Not the best Marvel movie...because it really isn't just a stand alone thing and really needs Infinity War to give it context...but great all the same. I'll repeat my last thought. I hope however they end the post-avengers storyline with a few less people. 30ish big names is too many to give even a line to each of them and both Infinity War and Endgame suffer for it.

  13. - Top - End - #103
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    OldWizardGuy

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    Default Re: Avengers: Endgame Discussion Thread

    Yikes! Haven't even seen Infinity War yet!

  14. - Top - End - #104
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    Default Re: Avengers: Endgame Discussion Thread

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    There. I just saved you 3 hours and the price of a ticket.

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    WolfInSheepsClothing

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    Default Re: Avengers: Endgame Discussion Thread

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    You know something that I felt sort of odd was that Cap was dating someone in the Winter Soldier right? I thought he had been dating her going forward as well but he's back to Carter during this film. I also thought the Girl was Carters granddaughter so either he just erased someone from his current timeline or he was dating his granddaughter for awhile.

    I also missed there wasn't a Big four shot Vs Thanos, infact I don't really remember Hulk doing that much during the final battle at all which was a shame considering he and Nat were an on/off couple.

    I was also really expecting Thanos after he'd been snapped to give Stark a smile and another "You have my respect Stark, I hope they remember you" echo. Although even at the time I was debating if that was in character.

  16. - Top - End - #106
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    Default Re: Avengers: Endgame Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Magic_Hat View Post
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    There. I just saved you 3 hours and the price of a ticket.
    Honestly, I would say that is true for a lot of earlier films, but not Endgame.

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    Writing, acting, characters and plot were all good here, but I thought the directing of a lot of it was just... mediocre? Unnecessary closeups and too many cuts back and forth between characters, panning shots that don't frame things well... it just looked kinda meh? In a lot of places?

    What I liked: the callbacks to earlier films, the 3v1 fight with Thanos (CAP WITH MJOLNIR), the banter (when it didn’t cut off emotional scenes...), how this resolved ... ACTUALLY, FINALLY RESOLVED, the character arcs for Steve and Tony. They kept going back to status quo after Iron Man 3, Avengers 2 and even DURING Civil War. The women superheroes lining up, the relay race with the Gauntlet, Black Widow and Hawkeye in space. QUILL GETTING DECKED! The little support group scene with Cap and the man talking about his husband. Also... that opening. Perf. That ending. Perf.

    What I disliked: not enough Carol Danvers! And they don’t even introduce her properly to the other characters (and the audience)! I get that you have to watch a ton of other films to understand all of the context of this film (though beyond Infinity War, few are actually "necessary"), but leaving that out and purely relying on “oh the audience should know her so we’ll not really have her get acquainted with the other characters” is BAD. Also, the women hero lineup signified something for me about the whole film: TONS of powerful moments, but half of them with just BLAND direction/shots/too many cuts. They’re not doing right by those characters. That lineup shoulda been MORE epic! Also, Iron Man and Spidey’s suits still look TERRIBLE. Which is cuz the studios were pressed for time, so that’s how you end up worse than Iron Man 1.

    Shame Valkyrie and Carol didn't happen and Cap and Bucky didn't get time together. Or the Caps together!

    Also Thor and Nebula joining for Guardians 3? Nice. Guess they're replacing Gamora for now. (Shoulda been Quill tho.)

    I wish they had shown the effects of The Snap on the Earth more. And I hope that they will do so going forward. The Nova and Kree Empires must've been crippled by this.
    Last edited by Morph Bark; 2019-04-26 at 01:12 PM.
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  17. - Top - End - #107
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    Default Re: Avengers: Endgame Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Magic_Hat View Post
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    There. I just saved you 3 hours and the price of a ticket.
    I mean... no? I think you might have watched a different movie.
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  18. - Top - End - #108
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    Default Re: Avengers: Endgame Discussion Thread

    Loose thought:

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    we're kinda running low on white males in superheroes, eh?

  19. - Top - End - #109
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    Default Re: Avengers: Endgame Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by kinglinus1 View Post
    I mean... no? I think you might have watched a different movie.
    It's Magic_hat. Given their past opinions, it's likely they either haven't watched the film at all, or were so prejudiced against it walking in they only saw what they expected to see.

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  20. - Top - End - #110
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    Default Re: Avengers: Endgame Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by kinglinus1 View Post
    I mean... no? I think you might have watched a different movie.
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    The film where they use time travel to bring back everyone killed in the last film?


    Well technically no. I'm not paying for a movie ticket to see this film in theaters. But thanks to wikipedia I can read a plot synopsis and only waste like one or two minutes of my time as opposed to three hours.

  21. - Top - End - #111
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    Default Re: Avengers: Endgame Discussion Thread

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    So I've been thinking of what they are going to do with Thor and I just remembered they gave Loki a very obvious get out of jail free card (I'm not sure how this plays into the time travel rules they set up but anyway). So with Thor off and about the universe I wonder if they are going to set up a Loki and Thor film either as part of the next GoTG film or their own solo thing, personally I think they would be the perfect way to introduce the next Arc villains. You could give them a solo adventure investigating the world tree say involving Nidhoggr have them defeat him only to find out that that something greater was behind it difficult to say what they are going to use. The obvious would be death, entropy, infinity and eternity either as a whole or as factions where the balance has been disrupted by something, (Say Loki stealing one of the stones from it's right place) especially since they gave us another good look at the Vault in Morag that shows them. Obviously leading to Thor dying and Loki having to run to the Avengers to warn them.

    On a completely different topic I like how Thanos is actually more dangerous in a solo or small group fight without the stones as rather than rely on them he uses his own combat prowess to quickly take down the Avengers. (Although they did need to tone Thor down abit by making his actual combat prowess rusty to make it work properly.)

    Oh and something that has hit me right now Vision is still dead I hope they bring him back, although I wouldn't mind if they gave him back his more alien mindset.
    Last edited by Spacewolf; 2019-04-26 at 01:50 PM.

  22. - Top - End - #112
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    Default Re: Avengers: Endgame Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Magic_Hat View Post
    Well technically no.
    Called it.

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  23. - Top - End - #113
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    Default Re: Avengers: Endgame Discussion Thread

    I realize I'm wasting my time in responding to Magic_Hat's idiocy, but I do want to write on the topic on more general terms anyway.

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    One of the big concerns going into the film was the "reset button". They were going to undo everything Infinity War did, and made it obvious prior to the fact by scheduling movies for characters who got dusted and having the actors playing characters who got dusted talk about taking part in the big fight scene. You know, all that jazz.

    And having seen the film, "reset button" is the absolute LAST term I would use to describe it. There are multiple characters who died in Infinity War and are staying dead, because they were not killed by The Snap and these aren't the Dragon Balls being used to "wish back everybody killed by Thanos". Loki is dead, Gamora is dead, Vision is dead. That stuck. The people that weren't snapped having to live through 5 years of hell as society basically collapsed from having over half the population disappear? That stuck too. The world moving forward will be a very different place than it was prior to Infinity War/Endgame, and Marvel has always kept the large world-changing events in mind when progressing the MCU.

    Furthermore, a reset button implies that status quo has returned. And it VERY much hasn't. Stark is dead. Black Widow is dead. Captain America is retired. Thor has stepped down. Banner has taken the events of the movie and used them to fix his conflict with the Hulk and find peace. The new Gamora running around is a pre-GotG version who didn't experience the events that made her fall in love with Quill, thoroughly changing the character dynamic in that franchise. What happens to the Avengers now that their leadership is gone? We don't know.

    In terms of "world shaking universe changes", it's difficult to be more thorough than Endgame actually was. If you expected the Snap to stick, you're a fool. No matter who they picked, Marvel was never going to obliterate half their roster with no narrative weight behind the event. It simply wasn't going to happen. Instead, they've done what I expected they would do - they retired a large number of the older heroes by giving them a full movie to themselves.

    And that brings me to one final point. I've seen a few posters saying that they thought the movie failed by not featuring Captain Marvel more. I am extremely glad that she wasn't around. I greatly enjoyed her movie and think Brie Larson has done a great job with the character, but this was not her movie. This was all about the original Avengers, and the focus was squarely on them where it should be. They gave her a moment to shine just like all the other new heroes, but they very deliberately stopped her from overshadowing things with her power level. That was the entire point of the start of the movie, where she shows up with a gung-ho "I'm going to kick Thanos's ass single-handedly" attitude. Sorry, but it's not that sort of movie. It's a much more reflective affair looking back on 15 years of cinematic history. She'll get her chance to shine in the next big crossover.

  24. - Top - End - #114
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    Default Re: Avengers: Endgame Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Rodin View Post
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    Loki is dead, Gamora is dead, Vision is dead.
    Well, one out of three ain't bad
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    Vision is most definitely dead. But Gamora isn't (as indeed you point out later in the post), and I fully expect the next GotG movie to be "the Quest for Gamora". And Loki... well, Loki now escaped with the Tesseract following the battle for New York, which means he too could be back, if the writers need him. I'm less certain about him than I am about Gomora, but the option is there.


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    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
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  25. - Top - End - #115
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    Default Re: Avengers: Endgame Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Cen View Post
    Loose thought:

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    we're kinda running low on white males in superheroes, eh?
    Why don't you start counting them. Lemme know how high it gets

  26. - Top - End - #116
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    Default Re: Avengers: Endgame Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Magic_Hat View Post
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    The film where they use time travel to bring back everyone killed in the last film?


    Well technically no. I'm not paying for a movie ticket to see this film in theaters. But thanks to wikipedia I can read a plot synopsis and only waste like one or two minutes of my time as opposed to three hours.
    Your loss chief.

    End Game is solid.

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    Especially love Thanos removing the Power Stone to humble Captain Marvel.


    Very curious how the MCU evolves moving forward, guess only time will tell.
    Quote Originally Posted by kamap View Post
    Also don't try to bring logic into the argument it has left the building ages ago since magic made its appearance.

  27. - Top - End - #117
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    Default Re: Avengers: Endgame Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Rodin View Post
    Sure, and your posts yet again remind me that two people can go to the same screening and see entirely different movies. For myself, there was plenty of humor to keep the story from getting too dark while not ruining the serious side of the story like Ragnarok did.
    Wait you did not like Ragnarok? 😲

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rodin View Post
    It seems like you didn't like the nostalgia and sentiment in the movie, but I found it to be fantastic. Everybody had their dead pool going into the movie, and it doesn't pretend that any of the original Avengers will return afterwards. We see how beaten down and exhausted Tony is, how Cap doesn't know how to move on even now. Endgame was a swansong for all of the original Avengers, and I thought it accomplished that magnificently.
    I do like Sentiment, but to me Sentiment by itself is like Marshmallow Peeps. It is tasty but also somehow not filling.

    Let me link 3 Loki clips about Sentiment and after watching the 3 clips my point I am about to make will make more sense, it will be easier to articulate.




    Avengers: Lok and Black Widow on the Shield Helicarrier: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iQ87Lg3tCQs

    Avengers: Loki and Thor on top of the Avengers Tower https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ECM7cGPL8EQ

    Ragnarok: Loki and Thor after Get Help. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JwBah2Smyew

    Quote Originally Posted by Thor 3: Ragnarok Script

    [As they walk towards it a DUPLICATE LOKI FORMS and LAGS BEHIND. The Loki walking with Thor is an illusion.]
    LOKI: Though I feel it won’t make much of a difference
    [We follow the real Loki as he slinks away towards the security system panel. He activates the panel and brings up a screen that will set off all the alarms palace-wide! ]
    THOR (Shocked): Oh, Loki.
    [Loki turns to see Thor looking not at all surprised.]
    LOKI: I know I’ve betrayed you many times before, but this time it’s truly nothing personal. The reward for your capture will set me up nicely.
    [He triggers the alarm.]
    THOR: Never one for sentiment, were you?

    LOKI: Easier to let it burn.

    [But then Loki sees Thor holding up a fob device. Loki realizes that Thor affixed an Obedience Disk on him in that heart-to-heart moment.]
    THOR: I agree.
    [BZZZT! Thor ZAPS Loki and HOLDS DOWN the button. Loki HITS the ground, WRITHING in pain. Thor approaches. Pause.]
    THOR: Oh brother, you’re becoming predictable. I trust you, you betray me. Round and round in circles we go.
    [Thor continues to “think about it” for a beat while Loki convulses in agony on the floor. Finally, Thor kneels down:]
    THOR: See, Loki, life is about, it’s about growth. It’s about change. But you seem to just wanna stay the same. I guess what I’m trying to say is that you’ll always be the God of Mischief, but you could be more. I’ll just put this over here for you.
    [Thor places the fob on top of the security panel, so close but so far from Loki’s paralyzed reach.]
    THOR: Anyway, I got places to be so good luck.
    Sentiment by itself is fleeting. Sentiment combined with Surprise, or Sentiment combined with Discovery leads to growth and change, a passing on of your previous capabilities and identity.

    You see I am not a big fan of time travel movies for often time travel movies makes it harder to promote a story with consequences and irrevocable change. It is harder to have stories where your choices have consequences, where there is both the possibility of loss and the possibility of growth. Times Arrow Marches Forward and all that Jazz.

    There are exceptions to this. I enjoy the Back to the Future Trilogy for growth and change ooze out of this time travel story. I am also a huge fan of the Dr. Strange for the same reasons. Just because you have time travel inside the story does not mean it is a bad thing, but often this is a plot device that leads an author to sabotage her or his writing for they have to know how to use this ingredient well in order to get a grand final result.

    -----

    Endgame was not fulfilling to me even though I can tell lots of other people are going to like it, for Endgame was merely a swan song with very little internal growth of the people that occured at the end of the movie. Lots of external change, it was not a reset, but the change was external to the people, they did not grow as people. People died but that is external change and not internal change.

    The closest thing we had to internal change was Professor Hulk, and Thor joining the Guardians of the Galaxy cast. Plus New Gamora and New Loki being reborn but as their earlier selves not with the memories, life experiences, and new identities / selves compared to their pre-death selves (so New Gamora is at her 2014 self, Rocket lived from 2014 to 2023, and the rest of the Guardians cast are 2014 to 2018 now in 2023, New Loki is from 2012 while Thor is from 2023.)

    To me Swan Songs are not tales of song of heroes long ago, a swan song should not be an awesome feat of a hero prior to his death, but instead a new generation being born and both old and new are grateful to the sacrifices of the old, and thus there is Nordic Funeral Pyre the youth does to honor the dead.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rodin View Post
    Rather than a candle, it was more of a torch. The torch was burning down and guttering out, as the original Avengers were. Then at the hour of need, it's re-kindled, and all of the allies they've made over the years come in to support them. Then, they hand the torch off to the next generation.
    I agree with this. Candle, Torch, whatever language you want to use.
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  28. - Top - End - #118
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    Default Re: Avengers: Endgame Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Rodin View Post
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    Well, they did trim the stable a fair bit with Infinity War and Endgame.

    Stark - dead.
    Black Widow - dead.
    Captain America - old man, retired.
    Hawkeye - pretty clearly retired to his farm in the country unless something really drastic happens. Given that "not drastic enough" included the events of Infinity War, I think he's out.
    Thor - officially hung up the hammer and passed rulership to Valkyrie.
    Hulk - having found happiness as Big Green, his character arc is clearly over and he's likely only to cameo if a super-scientist is needed.

    That's the entire original Avengers stable out, as far as I can tell. We're also down Loki and Vision, neither of whom were killed by the Snap and were not brought back. Gamora is also missing, as the original stayed dead and I'm betting the plot of GotG3 will be "The Quest For Gamora".

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    I'm pretty sure Thor will be sticking around as a member of the Guardians. It's a pretty good fit for Chris Hemsworth because he's always leapt on any excuse to be funny And, well, who do we know who's really connected to the Soul stone who we also know is in Guardians 3?

    So Gamora and Black Widow might not be quite as dead as doornails.

  29. - Top - End - #119
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    Default Re: Avengers: Endgame Discussion Thread

    Something I will say, because I wish someone had told me, and for the benefit of anyone who for some reason is reading this thread without having seen it, is that there are no credits scenes. So you don't need to stick around to the bitter end unless you want to watch all the credits.

    Quote Originally Posted by Magic_Hat View Post
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    There. I just saved you 3 hours and the price of a ticket.
    Quote Originally Posted by Magic_Hat View Post
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    The film where they use time travel to bring back everyone killed in the last film?


    Well technically no. I'm not paying for a movie ticket to see this film in theaters. But thanks to wikipedia I can read a plot synopsis and only waste like one or two minutes of my time as opposed to three hours.
    I agree with Grey_Wolf, and (for the most part) Rodin's lengthier response, but I have to add that judging from these quotes, I think you might have missed the point there, not only of this movie, or indeed of cinema in general, but indeed of the entirety of art. So, you know, good job.

    Overall, I very much enjoyed it.

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    I can see where criticism of the final battle scene comes from, and it possibly was a bit long, but it does also give us the big thrilling climax that films like this pretty much demand, and they did a good job of keeping the tension up with fluctuating fortunes of either side. From the actual cheers in the cinema at the point Cap got hold of Mjolnir onwards, it didn't let up until the job was done.

    Moreso than the battle, I thought the denouement was a little long, though necessarily so. And the final shot felt a little... weak? I approve of ending the film on that note, but some combination of the music and the staging meant it left the film, for me, kind of petering out right at the end, rather than properly finishing.

    I'm not sure how the Loki business works with the time travel. In this timeline, the Tesseract never made it back to Asgard, so they couldn't use it to repair the Bifrost. That would skew the events of the universe after the first Avengers film, because without the Bifrost, Thor couldn't intervene on Earth to collect Jane after her encounter with the Ether, or to create Vision. Loki couldn't dump Odin on Earth, and while Hela might have subsequently appeared in Asgard on Odin's death Thor couldn't have brought the skull of Surtr back to Asgard in Ragnarok, meaning Ragnarok shouldn't have happened. Having said that I suppose that with Cap being able to time travel at the end of the film to restore things, he can fix all that anyway somwhow.


    A question that will never be answered:

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    If Cap spends 45-odd years with Peggy, does he ever take the opportunity to let his old buddy Howard know that he's alive and kicking? If not, it's kind of cruel to let Howard go his whole life believing Cap's gone forever. And if he does, does that mean he ends up becoming Uncle Steve to Tony?

    As above, that would probably screw with the timeline quite a lot, albeit indirectly this time, but on the other hand I like the idea too much for it not to happen somehow, and damn the consequences.
    Last edited by Aedilred; 2019-04-26 at 05:43 PM.
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  30. - Top - End - #120
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    Default Re: Avengers: Endgame Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Aedilred View Post
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    I'm not sure how the Loki business works with the time travel. In this timeline, the Tesseract never made it back to Asgard, so they couldn't use it to repair the Bifrost. That would skew the events of the universe after the first Avengers film, because without the Bifrost, Thor couldn't intervene on Earth to collect Jane after her encounter with the Ether, or to create Vision. Loki couldn't dump Odin on Earth, and while Hela might have subsequently appeared in Asgard on Odin's death Thor couldn't have brought the skull of Surtr back to Asgard in Ragnarok, meaning Ragnarok shouldn't have happened. Having said that I suppose that with Cap being able to time travel at the end of the film to restore things, he can fix all that anyway somwhow.
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    Steve Rogers is taking six infinity stones and Mjolnir to fix all that. If Marvel are ever strapped for cash they can do a film about it.

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