Avengers: Endgame Discussion Thread

[JMS]

Can we agree that Nebula...

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bludgeoning Quill

... was very satisfying?

That was fun, yes, but it was Gamora, the green one.

[DeadMech]

Just saw it. Loved it for the most part. Some loose ends with the time travel so it's not 100% airtight in terms of plotholes but most stories involving time travel aren't.

[Reddish Mage]

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The time stone can alter your own past, or the timeline of something else. It is capable of actually changing history, instead of just making alternate futures. Just for fun, the space stone can also allow time travel just like the quantum realm does.

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Parallel universes. The agents of shield time "loop" isn't an 8 or a O, it's a series of N's.

Spoiler: Speculation without Explanation

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Assuming the time stone can actually alter the past, unlike Quantum Realm Time Travel....What does the time stone’s ability to alter the past have to do with anything.

Also, if you can change the past...how do you deal with the fact that Tony/Banner explained that whole idea was impossible by its very notion?

As far as parallel universes being a finite series....what is that expected to explain? In particular, Fitz goes to the future the long way after the team gets sent to the future by machine. He ends up in the same future, yet the very team later ongoes back to the past and changes that future so destroyed Earth never exists.

If its one timeline that can change, its inconsistent with Avengers (also paradoxical). If its multiple timelines...Fitz and the Team should have been in different futures (only Fitz remained in the original timeline), and later the team should arrive in a different past then the one they left.

Spoiler: Loki

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Loki isnt back, outside this movie. He didnt return to the future the way past-nebula did, so unless he stowed away on Thanos's ship (after absconding with the space stone thanos is still looking for) when thanos was pulled foreward, he's still dead.

Spoiler: Loki is getting a TV show

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The question is what happens to escaped Loki? If he doesn’t make it into the main timeline, he’s out there in the alternative timeline (which I note is not necessarily the same timeline as the one in which Thanos notices future Nebula, as those were from two separate trips into the past).

[Rakaydos]

Spoiler: Loki is getting a TV show

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The question is what happens to escaped Loki? If he doesn’t make it into the main timeline, he’s out there in the alternative timeline (which I note is not necessarily the same timeline as the one in which Thanos notices future Nebula, as those were from two separate trips into the past).

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Assuming you arnt serious about your spoiler box tag, the simplest thing is that Steve made it never happen. Time Stone OP, yo.

[Razade]

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Assuming you arnt serious about your spoiler box tag, the simplest thing is that Steve made it never happen. Time Stone OP, yo.

They're serious. It's a flagship for Disney's streaming service.

[Jeivar]

That was fun, yes, but it was Gamora, the green one.

Oops, I misremembered.

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I meant the War Machine bit.

[Zalabim]

Spoiler: Speculation without Explanation

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Assuming the time stone can actually alter the past, unlike Quantum Realm Time Travel....What does the time stone’s ability to alter the past have to do with anything.

Also, if you can change the past...how do you deal with the fact that Tony/Banner explained that whole idea was impossible by its very notion?

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It has nothing to do with Endgame, but I believe that's the difference, since the question was asked. Also, welcome to infinity stones. They can do the (otherwise) impossible.

Spoiler: Speculation without Explanation

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As far as parallel universes being a finite series....what is that expected to explain? In particular, Fitz goes to the future the long way after the team gets sent to the future by machine. He ends up in the same future, yet the very team later ongoes back to the past and changes that future so destroyed Earth never exists.

If its one timeline that can change, its inconsistent with Avengers (also paradoxical). If its multiple timelines...Fitz and the Team should have been in different futures (only Fitz remained in the original timeline), and later the team should arrive in a different past then the one they left.

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The future with the Earth destroyed still exists. That's the point of teaching Flint to put it back together. They save the future, then go back to the past and live out a different timeline in which the Earth isn't destroyed. They don't change anything that's already happened.

Every timeline has Agents in it. When they go back to the past at the end they're leaving a destroyed future to try again in a new line, where they all eventually die if they fail. While the team from the timeline they land in tries to learn from their mistakes and not fail when they go back themselves. It's a sequence of jumping forward, then jumping back and 'sideways' to a new line. The Fitz in the timeline they came from makes it to the future the long way, but in the timeline they saved, they're going to find him and wake him up early. That is Fitz, but it won't be "their" Fitz from the past, but an alternate Fitz that is effectively identical to a past version of their Fitz.

[Frozen_Feet]

Shortly: multiversal iterative time travel theory is a bitch.

[Reddish Mage]

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Assuming you arnt serious about your spoiler box tag, the simplest thing is that Steve made it never happen. Time Stone OP, yo.

Spoiler: Seriously, Loki is getting a TV show

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its already official. So yes, Loki really does escape because TV show.

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It has nothing to do with Endgame, but I believe that's the difference, since the question was asked. Also, welcome to infinity stones. They can do the (otherwise) impossible.

Spoiler: Draw me a round square and tell me the date of the next pop quiz

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There's a difference between doing the physically impossible and doing the logically impossible. We're told changing the timeline is logically impossible. Tony/Bruce are saying you can't affect the future by changing the past because the very notion "makes no sense." Handwaving it and saying you can because time stone isn't a real explanation.

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The future with the Earth destroyed still exists. That's the point of teaching Flint to put it back together. They save the future, then go back to the past and live out a different timeline in which the Earth isn't destroyed. They don't change anything that's already happened.

Every timeline has Agents in it. When they go back to the past at the end they're leaving a destroyed future to try again in a new line, where they all eventually die if they fail. While the team from the timeline they land in tries to learn from their mistakes and not fail when they go back themselves. It's a sequence of jumping forward, then jumping back and 'sideways' to a new line. The Fitz in the timeline they came from makes it to the future the long way, but in the timeline they saved, they're going to find him and wake him up early. That is Fitz, but it won't be "their" Fitz from the past, but an alternate Fitz that is effectively identical to a past version of their Fitz.

Spoiler: Finally

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There. That's the most sensible explanation offered so far. Fitz isn't actually the same Fitz anymore, and the timeline the Agents are in from mid-season 5 onward is actually a parallel timeline. Therefore, everything going on in Endgame happens in a new timeline because the original timeline where every other movie and tv show took place in got destroyed in an unrelated event.

Unlikely, implausible, and a bit tortured, but at least not logically impossible.

Also you raise a few new philosophical questions about personal identity but let's just stick to the obvious problems.

[Frozen_Feet]

Spoiler: Personal identity stuff

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Doctor Strange movie and the existence of, well, a Soul Stone, imply existence of souls.

Furthermore, Endgame hints at entanglement with Nebula. Could be a specific case related to her cybernetics, but it's possible there is overlap between all characters from different timelines.

This has implications to Gamora and Loki. Specifically about Gamora, it's vague what happens to the alternate timeline version in Endgame. If she's still around in the world post Endgame... could she become the Gamora Quil loved?

Or alternatively, self is an illusion and personal identity isn't worth worrying about.

[PopeLinus1]

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The film where they use time travel to bring back everyone killed in the last film?

Well technically no. I'm not paying for a movie ticket to see this film in theaters. But thanks to wikipedia I can read a plot synopsis and only waste like one or two minutes of my time as opposed to three hours.

The film where 5 years of life happens in spite of bringing everyone back? The film where multiple characters die or are removed from the action? Yes they did... undo something from another movie, but resetting is absolutely the wrong term. The world has been forever changed by Thanos. If you don't care to watch it, that's fine, but I think the wikipedia summery you read missed a few things, like say... The movie?

[zimmerwald1915]

Spoiler: Seriously, Loki is getting a TV show

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its already official. So yes, Loki really does escape because TV show.

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Well. Proprietary streaming service show. I gotta admit, it's a smart play, Tom Hiddleston could probably sell subscribers on a new service all by his lonesome.

[DeadMech]

Spoiler: Personal identity stuff

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Furthermore, Endgame hints at entanglement with Nebula. Could be a specific case related to her cybernetics, but it's possible there is overlap between all characters from different timelines.

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I prefer to think the two Nebula's were just sharing the same wifi because they haven't changed their password since it was set up.

[HandofShadows]

Shortly: multiversal iterative time travel theory is a bitch.

If you think it's bad in Endgame wait until you play BioShock Infinite (If you haven't already).

[Ramza00]

Responding to Kato

Okay, now next morning and without depending on my phone...

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Also, the space team could have gone to any point in the last thousand years or so because both stones where there for ever. You made things hard on yourself on purpose.

Per an art book from Guardians of the Galaxy 1

Spoiler: Of stuff not in the movies, but are secondary Apocrypha

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The Power Stone at the temple / tomb in the first Guardians of the Galaxy movie, is normally underwater for the planet is wierd. When Peter Quill / Star-Lord went to retrieve the Power Stone it was the first time the tomb was accessible for 300 years.

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So of course this means there are two opportunities to retrieve the power stone and the reality stone.

Opportunity 1 is what happened in the Endgame movie.

Opportunity 2 is wait for 2014, those days or weeks later when the Collector to get both the Power Stone and the Reality Stone (which he obtained the year prior at the end credits in Thor 2: Dark World aka 2013, the Asguardians gave it to the Collector for they did not want the Space Stone and the Reality Stone at the same location.) This would allow you to combine the same teams to grab both stones and thus allow better coordination between the teams for they are not seperate cells unable to coordinate but instead two cooperative cells with parallel missions. Thor and Rocket can join Nebula and Warmachine.

There are downsides and upsides to this plan. An upside is Thor knew the Collector has the Reality Stone (see Infinity War) and Rocket knew the Collector temporarly had the Power Stone when the Guardians brought the stone to him. The downside is they do not know where the Collector was hiding the Reality Stone within his control, is it with his collections or somewhere else? All we know is Thanos eventually figures out where the Collector was hiding the reality stone.

Conversely while Thor has to avoid his family and Jane, Asgard is his home turf and he is very familiar with how the builds and such are structured and he can look familiar enough to the guards that he can tell them to be on their way. The avengers picked the plan that was more enviromentally sure but less room for error, while Opportunity 2 does not give them the home field advantage but there are more teammates to cooperate together with and recover from any mistakes.

There was no way to really know that Nebula has machinery in her that always talks to Thanos and thus he would be alerted as soon as she enter a different timezone. Aka an unforseen circumstance. There was no way to perfectly plan these events, there was always going to be risk, even though there probably could have been more planning involved. For example go for the time stone first and take with you someone that can use the time stone and make those sorcerer travel gateways. There is no reason why you couldn't bring the entire Eye of Agamotto with you when the Ancient One gave the stone away, and it appears the Eye combined with someone with sorcerer knowledge allows the use of an infinity stone where you may not kill yourself instantly via using its powers. (It is risky in a different way, not in the way of touching the power stone may cause you to explode.)

[Rodin]

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They also didn't know exactly where the Power Stone was. Quill was the one who knew that, and he got dusted. They knew which planet it was on, but Quill gathered the stone by himself.
This is why War Machine and Nebula have to wait for him to show up rather than just scarpering with the stone and leaving him to find an empty treasure chamber - he has to lead them there first.
If they showed up earlier, there's no guarantee they would actually have been able to locate the stone at all.

[Ramza00]

So Avengers Endgame is estimated to make about 1.2 billion in its open weekend based on the Friday and Saturday numbers. 350 million US and 850 million International (these numbers are an estimate we will have more firm numbers in 48 hours.)

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If these numbers are true, just by its open weekend, Avengers Endgame is already #18 largest selling movie of all time in nominal / today dollars.

That is higher than Captain Marvel made over its run (currently #24), it is roughly tied with Iron Man 3 #17. Throw another 130 million on it and it will be beating Star Wars The Last Jedi (#11), 140 million more means it beats Black Panther, 200 million more means it beats Avengers 2: Age of Ultron which is the 2nd highest MCU movie to date ($1.405 billion, #8th highest of all time.)

Avengers 3: Infinity War is currently at $2.048 billion and is the 4th highest movie of all time. Avatar is #1 at $2.788 billion.

https://www.boxofficemojo.com/alltime/world/

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With numbers like this it is scary the 2017 Kevin Feige Vannity Fair interview where Feige stated they have another 20 MCU movies at various stages in the pipeline and they will be different than what came before.

What have we wrought?

Edit: Kevin Feige is President of Marvel Studios, aka the man in charge of the MCU at Disney.

[Jeivar]

With numbers like this it is scary the 2017 Kevin Feige Vannity Fair interview where Feige stated they have another 20 MCU movies at various stages in the pipeline and they will be different than what came before.

What have we wrought?

Whaa-aa-aat?

Twenty??

What is left to do?? I know we're due for another Spider-Man, probably a third and final Guardians of the Galaxy, another Captain Marvel and Ant-Man, and probably Strange and Black Panther too, but that doesn't fill out twenty movies. All the major characters have already been covered.

[The Glyphstone]

In commemoration of all the time travel discussion, let's ponder the alternate timeline where Nicholas Cage played Iron Man in 2004. Would we still have an MCU if Tony Stark had just been another Nick Cage movie where he makes That Face?

[Ramza00]

Whaa-aa-aat?

Twenty??

What is left to do?? I know we're due for another Spider-Man, probably a third and final Guardians of the Galaxy, another Captain Marvel and Ant-Man, and probably Strange and Black Panther too, but that doesn't fill out twenty movies. All the major characters have already been covered.

If we get 20 more movies and we do not get Wiccan and Hulking (and the other Young Avengers) in one of these 40 movies, I will tip over the MCU table!

In commemoration of all the time travel discussion, let's ponder the alternate timeline where Nicholas Cage played Iron Man in 2004. Would we still have an MCU if Tony Stark had just been another Nick Cage movie where he makes That Face?

Who would win 1998 Nicholas Cage in Superman Lives vs 2004 Nicholas Cage in Iron Man?

How about Nicholas Cage in Friends vs those two (The Deep Fake video where Ross with Nicholas Cage's face looks more like Ross that the actor who plays Ross.)

[The Glyphstone]

If we get 20 more movies and we do not get Wiccan and Hulking (and the other Young Avengers) in one of these 40 movies, I will tip over the MCU table!

We will get GoG 3, Spidey 2, Cap Marvel 2, Ant-Man 3, Strange 2, Black Panther 2, then 14 consecutive movies about Howard The Duck.

[Spamotron]

Whaa-aa-aat?

Twenty??

What is left to do?? I know we're due for another Spider-Man, probably a third and final Guardians of the Galaxy, another Captain Marvel and Ant-Man, and probably Strange and Black Panther too, but that doesn't fill out twenty movies. All the major characters have already been covered.

The pattern seems to be that any character who is successful gets a trilogy. Spider-Man 2 more movies, Dr. Strange 2, Black Panther 2, Captain Marvel 2, Guardians of the Galaxy 1, we know of a Black Widow movie, that's 10 just from existing franchises. With the Fox deal, Marvel has Fantastic 4 and X-Men back and they're probably hoping they'll be successful enough for trilogies as well that's 16. Then remember that Marvel Comics has hundreds of characters that supported their own series. Then also remember that the "big 3," of Iron Man, Captain America, and Thor were characters that outside the general comic fandom people were at best vaguely aware existed before the success of their movies. As far as the general public is concerned a character like Moon Knight or Sleepwalker is only slightly more obscure than the "big 3," were circa 2008. Finally the Guardians of the Galaxy proved that D-list nobodies can become household names with the right script and actors.

[Lethologica]

Whaa-aa-aat?

Twenty??

What is left to do?? I know we're due for another Spider-Man, probably a third and final Guardians of the Galaxy, another Captain Marvel and Ant-Man, and probably Strange and Black Panther too, but that doesn't fill out twenty movies. All the major characters have already been covered.

The Marvel comics universe is dark and full of terrors large and full of characters.

[Ramza00]

The Eternals is definitely happening. Angelina Jolie is playing Sersi. Kumail Nanjiani also joined The Eternals.(Big Sick, Silicon Valley, others...my how he has grown in fame I remember him from The Indoor Kids podcast.)

Eternals in the comic are super power beings offshoots of humanity and many of the characters from myth are an Eternal such as certain gods, heroes, and monsters. Sersi being also known as Cersei from the Odyssey. Technically Thanos is an Eternals deviant. Then again the MCU changes a lot from the comics and the Eternals is an obscure property.

There super powers are very psionic like, but these similar power to psionics do lots of varied effects like super strength, flight, energy power, illusions, etc.

[Devonix]

The Eternals is definitely happening. Angelina Jolie is playing Sersi. Kumail Nanjiani also joined The Eternals.(Big Sick, Silicon Valley, others...my how he has grown in fame I remember him from The Indoor Kids podcast.)

Eternals in the comic are super power beings offshoots of humanity and many of the characters from myth are an Eternal such as certain gods, heroes, and monsters. Sersi being also known as Cersei from the Odyssey. Technically Thanos is an Eternals deviant. Then again the MCU changes a lot from the comics and the Eternals is an obscure property.

There super powers are very psionic like, but these similar power to psionics do lots of varied effects like super strength, flight, energy power, illusions, etc.

The confusing thing about the Eternals is that we've already met them. Thanos is an Eternal, but he's supposedly killed all of them in the MCU so I can just guess they're changing their origins. or have separated them more.

[Ramza00]

The confusing thing about the Eternals is that we've already met them. Thanos is an Eternal, but he's supposedly killed all of them in the MCU so I can just guess they're changing their origins. or have separated them more.

That is not the only thing that is confusing about the Eternals from the comics

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It appears the Marvel Movies are going to do Sersei and Ikaris which are Earth Based Eternals. Eternals are confusing for there are Eternals of Earth, Eternals on the Planet Uranus, and Eternals of the moon Titan which orbits Saturn (it is Saturn's largest moon). There are also Eternals of different species for the Celestials made similar splinters of other alien races and sometimes they make an Eternal strand.

There are also different generation of Eternals with different power sets depending on whether they were exposed to ... YADDA, YADDA, YADDA, marvel comic nerd stuff that gives you super powers and different people different super powers.

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But yeah I think they are probably going to change much of the Eternals in the MCU like they did with Ego, Grandmaster, and so on. The Eternals were a Jack Kirby creation during his 2 years return to Marvel in his on again off again Kirby is working for Marvel, now for DC, now for Marvel again, now doing TV work, etc.

Kirby only did 19 comics that were their own Eternals imprint, but many Eternals were featured in other comics such as Thanos. Later on in 1985 there was a 12 comic miniseries of the Eternals, and then later on Neil Gaiman in 2006 did a 7 comic miniseries. Lots of the stuff with the Eternals is similar to Kirby's earlier work with the New Gods at DC.

My point here is there is lots of good stuff with the Eternals but not much of it so the MCU has to decide how they are going to integrate these concepts into the cinematic universe. Things are going to get changed for that is the nature of comics with its own canon inside comics, and it is also the nature of adapting movies from comics. Thanos says he is the only survivor from Titan, but they can still keep him an Eternal and then introduce other Eternals like Sersei and Ikaris for they were not from Titan but were Earth Eternals.

[thompur]

After watching End Game, I realize something awesome about myself:

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I have the body of a Norse god.

[Delicious Taffy]

As far as the general public is concerned a character like Moon Knight or Sleepwalker is only slightly more obscure than the "big 3," were circa 2008.

Well, now I want a Sleepwalker movie. Imagine having Sleepy in the MCU, teaming up with Spider-Man.

[Callos_DeTerran]

Spoiler: Endgame Cap

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For those who are wondering why the best joke in the movie, Cap saying Hail Hydra, wasn't laughed at by the audiences...well...probably because its not a joke? Nothing about that scene felt like it was trying to get a laugh out of me, it felt more like...well...an awesome Take That!/Crowning Moment of Awesome for Steve Rogers and the writers. They took an honestly stupid and hated moment from recent comics and didn't just make it...well
..make a helluva lot more sense than it did in the comics but made it COOL.

For most of the MCU, Steve keeps getting told that his morals are too rigid, that he's too honest, etc. etc. Basically that his old fashioned morals don't fit in anymore. So when confronted by an elevator full of Hydra agents that would be a rough fight and not wanting to make a scene in the first place for a number of reasons, Cap engages in a little bit of duplicity to get the scepter out without a fuss and likely causing Hydra some more problems when they approach that timeline's Cap under the assumption that he's a Hydra agent.

That moment never felt like a joke, it just felt awesome.

[Lethologica]

Spoiler: Endgame Cap

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For those who are wondering why the best joke in the movie, Cap saying Hail Hydra, wasn't laughed at by the audiences...well...probably because its not a joke? Nothing about that scene felt like it was trying to get a laugh out of me, it felt more like...well...an awesome Take That!/Crowning Moment of Awesome for Steve Rogers and the writers. They took an honestly stupid and hated moment from recent comics and didn't just make it...well
..make a helluva lot more sense than it did in the comics but made it COOL.

For most of the MCU, Steve keeps getting told that his morals are too rigid, that he's too honest, etc. etc. Basically that his old fashioned morals don't fit in anymore. So when confronted by an elevator full of Hydra agents that would be a rough fight and not wanting to make a scene in the first place for a number of reasons, Cap engages in a little bit of duplicity to get the scepter out without a fuss and likely causing Hydra some more problems when they approach that timeline's Cap under the assumption that he's a Hydra agent.

That moment never felt like a joke, it just felt awesome.

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It absolutely is awesome. It is also taking the piss out of (a) the audience's expectation of another elevator fight scene and (b) the corresponding moment in the comics. Humor is not universal, of course.