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  1. - Top - End - #181
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    Default Re: Respectful term for nonbinary people and people of unknown gender?

    Just re-introduce thou and be be done with it! There is noting wrong with T-V distinction.
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  2. - Top - End - #182
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    if i don't have previous aquintance with the person i go with whatever feels more natural. i do this as respectfully as posible.

    if they respectfully tell me to adress them otherwise i'll do so. if they are rude doing so i'll call on their rudness and won't adress them untill they change their tone.

    i don't play the game of "how did you dare call me?". Nor will i play a guessing game.

    There are some standards in society. Being an exception to those standards is a choice and it's up to you to inform that you don't want to play by the social standards; until i am informed of the fact i have to treat you by formal social etticet otherwise i'd consider myself rude towards you.

    Furthermore i have bought an english title of Lord for my passport. if someone would have me address them on a weird pronoun i'd have them address me as my formal title of Lord just to have a hillarious conversation. :P

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  3. - Top - End - #183
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    Quote Originally Posted by Themrys View Post
    I have had a man put me through attempted brainwashing via DnD because I didn't notice the red flags about his misogyny early on. (He, like many other misogynists, would never have admitted to hating women. We are simply objects to him, objects he wants to serve a specific purpose, and apparently he was greatly offended that I choose to not be a sexy submissive housewife for some male)

    And I was lucky. He actually hit on another woman in that group, who fortunately wasn't interested in him for unrelated reasons.

    Men usually don't understand that, for women, this is a question of safety. I actually invited that emotionally abusive a-hole to my home. What would he have done if I had asked him to leave when he finally showed his true face, instead of nodding and smiling and waiting for him to leave on his own accord and then telling him he wasn't welcome back? I don't know. But I know I wouldn't have been able to overpower him in a fight, not without using potentially lethal methods.

    So, don't wave that red flag if you don't want women to run away. Just saying.


    (Also, lots and lots of women are killed by doctors who just dismiss their existence when testing medication, dismiss their pain, dismiss their heart attack symptoms. We cannot right that if we do not acknowledge it exists.)
    As harrowing as that anecdote is, it is not representative of the term "dude" and a sample size of exactly one does not inspire my confidence in your study of the correlation between misidentifying someone and sociopathic tendencies.

    Only women? Mostly women? Is there a study?
    "You... little... *****. It's what my old man called me, it's like it was my name, and I proved him right, by killing all the wrong people. [And], I love ya Henry, and I'll never call you anything but your name, but you gotta decide; are you gonna lay there, swallow that blood in your mouth, or are you gonna stand up, spit it out, and go spill theirs?" - Unknown

  4. - Top - End - #184
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fyraltari View Post
    Just re-introduce thou and be be done with it! There is noting wrong with T-V distinction.
    There is also nothing necessary about a distinction between singular and plural, anymore than there is a need for words to be gendered. Adverbs and adjectives already can fill that niche when the context might be in doubt.

    Put another way: many languages have distinctive version of the first person plural - inclusive and exclusive. So if I say "we've won the lottery", in those languages you can tell if that includes you, the listener, or not. But while it's a neat characteristic, it's hardly essential - English and French both lack it, and it has yet to lead to major issues.

    Genderization of language, on the other hand, does lead to issues such as reinforcement of cultural mores. So I find that using "they" as the standard pronoun for everyone would be a much better scenario than status quo, which is why I use it and bring it up every time.

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    Quote Originally Posted by woweedd View Post
    I would say that's the dumbest theory Grey Wolf's heard, but, let's be honest: It's Grey Wolf. They've probably heard dumber theories today. Point is, neat idea, but it's a real stretch.
    Ceterum autem censeo Hilgya malefica est

  5. - Top - End - #185
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    Maybe I should have taken a page from Pendell’s book and signed that ‘‘tongue-in-cheek’’.
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  6. - Top - End - #186
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    Default Re: Respectful term for nonbinary people and people of unknown gender?

    Quote Originally Posted by Asmotherion View Post
    etticet
    Etiquette.
    The end of what Son? The story? There is no end. There's just the point where the storytellers stop talking.

  7. - Top - End - #187
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fyraltari View Post
    Maybe I should have taken a page from Pendell’s book and signed that ‘‘tongue-in-cheek’’.
    Bah. Everyone knows the French are only funny when dinning with fools.

    [/tongue-in-cheek]

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    Quote Originally Posted by woweedd View Post
    I would say that's the dumbest theory Grey Wolf's heard, but, let's be honest: It's Grey Wolf. They've probably heard dumber theories today. Point is, neat idea, but it's a real stretch.
    Ceterum autem censeo Hilgya malefica est

  8. - Top - End - #188
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grey_Wolf_c View Post
    Bah. Everyone knows the French are only funny when dinning with fools.

    [/tongue-in-cheek]

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    Last edited by Fyraltari; 2019-04-12 at 09:42 AM.

  9. - Top - End - #189
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    Quote Originally Posted by Caerulea View Post
    Spoiler: They
    Show

    Singular Nominative Accusative Genitive
    Male He Him His
    Female She Her Her
    Neutral (Human) They Them Their
    Neutral (object) It It Its

    Plural Nominative Accusative Genitive
    Everything They Them Their

    Issues: Uses the same pronoun for singular and plural.

    because nearly everyday they bring battle against the Germans, either keeping them from their lands or waging war themselves in their territory. —translated from Bellum Gallicum 1.1

    Spoiler: Xe
    Show

    Singular Nominative Accusative Genitive
    Male He Him His
    Female She Her Her
    Other Xe Xem Xer
    Neutral (object) It It Its

    Plural Nominative Accusative Genitive
    Everything They Them Their
    Issues: I don't know how to pronounce them. Also, I dislike the letter "x".

    Spoiler: Ze
    Show

    Singular Nominative Accusative Genitive
    Male He Him His
    Female She Her Her
    Other Ze Zir Zes
    Neutral (object) It It Its

    Plural Nominative Accusative Genitive
    Everything They Them Their
    Issues: I dislike the letter "z".

    Spoiler: Ze, version two
    Show

    Singular Nominative Accusative Genitive
    Male He Him His
    Female She Her Her
    Other Ze Zem Zir
    Neutral (object) It It Its

    Plural Nominative Accusative Genitive
    Everything They Them Their
    Issues: I dislike the letter "z".

    Spoiler: Ze, version three
    Show

    Singular Nominative Accusative Genitive
    Male He Him His
    Female She Her Her
    Other Ze Hir Hir
    Neutral (object) It It Its

    Plural Nominative Accusative Genitive
    Everything They Them Their
    Issues: "Hir" looks like it would be pronounced "her." Also, I dislike the letter "z".

    (Source: What I remember being advocated + Wikipedia. Also The Extinguisher. Let me know if I missed something/screwed up.)

    Conclusion: Nothing will make English be consistent. Let us just steal something from another language already.

    —Caerulea
    All valid concerns. If anyone wants some more discussion of the issues (or perceived issues) with many of the options, I enjoyed this article: https://genderneutralpronoun.wordpre...utral-pronoun/

    Quote Originally Posted by Caerulea View Post
    The point was that English pronouns are terrible. The sentence is perfectly unambiguous and clear in Latin. When translated to English, you get a mess of they and them. I wanted to point out that adding yet more uses to they could lead to even more confusing sentences.

    —Caerulea
    Regarding the singular they, it's already in use in many cases. This would simply be an expansion of that use.

    I actually had this discussion with my mother-in-law a while back. She was concerned that "they" was specifically plural and would result in confusion. For a couple hours after that, I listed to our conversations, and pointed out where she unconsciously used the singular "they" already. After 3 or 4 times, she laughed and admitted that ok, it's already super common. It just might require some care if the context isn't clear (just like "you" does).

    Some examples of current use, generally when talking about a theoretical person with no determined gender:
    - Somebody left their hat on the hook.
    - If this made a person sick, I'd feel bad for them.
    - Even one person can make a difference by donating their time to the cause!

    (Also, I just learned, singular they dates back to at least the 1300s, and includes such users as Shakespeare and Jane Austen. https://www.dictionary.com/e/they-is...gular-pronoun/ )

    Quote Originally Posted by 5crownik007 View Post
    Only women? Mostly women? Is there a study?
    Not only, or maybe even mostly, but at a much larger rate than men were, historically. There are, in fact, studies, though I don't have them on hand. I'd suggest reading up on the medical history of the condition known as Hysteria, aka "Women be crazy because they gots a uterus!"

    Link: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Female_hysteria
    "With so many possible symptoms, historically hysteria was considered a catchall diagnosis where any unidentifiable ailment could be assigned."
    https://www.glamour.com/story/the-hi...-with-hysteria
    epilepsy was frequently confused with hysteria

    There are other things as well, including the fact that most medical research was done with the male body for a long time, so medical techniques just weren't developed with women in mind. These things have gotten much better in recent years, but still aren't perfect.
    Last edited by ve4grm; 2019-04-12 at 09:56 AM.

  10. - Top - End - #190
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    Default Re: Respectful term for nonbinary people and people of unknown gender?

    1) As a resident of the San Francisco bay area "Dude" hella repels me, it's an L.A.-ism and is right out no matter the genders of those addressed!

    2) "Folks" instead of "Ladies and gentlemen" works fine.

    3) 'Please excuse me ma'am" and "Pardon me sir" are easily substituted with "Please excuse me" and "Pardon me".

    So what's the problem again?
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  11. - Top - End - #191
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    Default Re: Respectful term for nonbinary people and people of unknown gender?

    Quote Originally Posted by 2D8HP View Post
    1) As a resident of the San Francisco bay area "Dude" hella repels me, it's an L.A.-ism
    What about His Dudeness, or uh, Duder, or El Duderino if you’re not into the whole brevity thing?
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    Isn't there a world like "hey peeps" from "people", not that I think about it?
    Quote Originally Posted by J.R.R. Tolkien, 1955
    I thought Tom Bombadil dreadful — but worse still was the announcer's preliminary remarks that Goldberry was his daughter (!), and that Willowman was an ally of Mordor (!!).

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    Default Re: Respectful term for nonbinary people and people of unknown gender?

    Anyway, in the interests of actually contributing.

    Tā in Chinese, for some reason means both He and She when spoken. Despite the words having distinctive written symbols.

    Tā de = His / Her (Of Him/Her, literally translated.)

    Tā = He/She

    Tāmen = He/she in the plural.
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    I like the "hobo" in there.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    What about His Dudeness, or uh, Duder, or El Duderino if you’re not into the whole brevity thing?

    "His Dudeness" is passable, "Duder" is marginal, "El Duderino" is repulsive.

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    Quote Originally Posted by 2D8HP View Post
    "El Duderino" is repulsive.
    I love Spanish, but it is the last language you want to borrow from when looking for any kind of gender-neutral word. They're so gendered, they've got genders in their genders, iykwim.

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    Quote Originally Posted by woweedd View Post
    I would say that's the dumbest theory Grey Wolf's heard, but, let's be honest: It's Grey Wolf. They've probably heard dumber theories today. Point is, neat idea, but it's a real stretch.
    Ceterum autem censeo Hilgya malefica est

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    Default Re: Respectful term for nonbinary people and people of unknown gender?

    Quote Originally Posted by druid91 View Post
    Anyway, in the interests of actually contributing.

    Tā in Chinese, for some reason means both He and She when spoken. Despite the words having distinctive written symbols.

    Tā de = His / Her (Of Him/Her, literally translated.)

    Tā = He/She

    Tāmen = He/she in the plural.
    Georgian and Armenian also have no gender-specific pronouns-- Armenian has the same pronoun for men and women (and presumably for non-binary people), and Georgian goes even further and has the same pronoun for pretty much any third person reference, whether it's a person of any gender, an animal, or an object.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grey_Wolf_c View Post
    I love Spanish, but it is the last language you want to borrow from when looking for any kind of gender-neutral word. They're so gendered, they've got genders in their genders, iykwim.

    Grey Wolf
    Seriously. "El Duderino" contains three separate male-gendered parts, in only two words!

    So if nothing else is accomplished here, at least we've rules out El Duderino.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Grey_Wolf_c View Post
    I love Spanish, but it is the last language you want to borrow from when looking for any kind of gender-neutral word. They're so gendered, they've got genders in their genders, iykwim.

    Grey Wolf
    Quote Originally Posted by ve4grm View Post
    Seriously. "El Duderino" contains three separate male-gendered parts, in only two words!

    So if nothing else is accomplished here, at least we've rules out El Duderino.
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  19. - Top - End - #199
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    Default Re: Respectful term for nonbinary people and people of unknown gender?

    Here's an 18th century rant about how singular "you" is destroying the English language.
    Last edited by 137ben; 2019-04-12 at 04:12 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by 137ben View Post
    Here's a 17th century rant about how singular "you" is destroying the English language.
    Plus ça change...

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    Quote Originally Posted by woweedd View Post
    I would say that's the dumbest theory Grey Wolf's heard, but, let's be honest: It's Grey Wolf. They've probably heard dumber theories today. Point is, neat idea, but it's a real stretch.
    Ceterum autem censeo Hilgya malefica est

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    Default Re: Respectful term for nonbinary people and people of unknown gender?

    Quote Originally Posted by 137ben View Post
    Here's a 17th century rant about how singular "you" is destroying the English language.
    Pahahahahahahahahaha!

    I'mma remember that one.

    Thanks, Mr Ellwood. Not the memorial you might have wanted, but apparently, as you're been in print since 1714 (so, 18th century, 137ben, yes I am that pedant...), so, hey.


    (For the record, I do use "they" in that format if required, now I think about it, which, to be fair, I also forgot to mention in my previous rant, not that anyone was paying attention anyway...)

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    Default Re: Respectful term for nonbinary people and people of unknown gender?

    Quote Originally Posted by ve4grm View Post
    Regarding the singular they, it's already in use in many cases. This would simply be an expansion of that use.
    Singular they is the best possible candidate, in my opinion.

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    Quote Originally Posted by 137ben View Post
    Here's an 18th century rant about how singular "you" is destroying the English language.
    Wow, talk about getting worked up over nothing.
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    So, themselves or themself?
    Quote Originally Posted by J.R.R. Tolkien, 1955
    I thought Tom Bombadil dreadful — but worse still was the announcer's preliminary remarks that Goldberry was his daughter (!), and that Willowman was an ally of Mordor (!!).

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    Quote Originally Posted by Vinyadan View Post
    So, themselves or themself?
    I use themself for a singular they. It just makes far more sense and reduces ambiguity, and the only "Drawback" is annoying linguistic prescriptivists (although my spellcheck thinks that "Themself" and indeed "Spellcheck" are words but "Prescriptivists" isn't. Not sure what the moral of that is).

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    Quote Originally Posted by 137ben View Post
    Here's an 18th century rant about how singular "you" is destroying the English language.
    Huh. So that's why we treat each other so badly. Here I was blaming the internet.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scarlet Knight View Post
    Huh. So that's why we treat each other so badly. Here I was blaming the internet.
    You want to know what happened, when he began thouing and theeing his father?

    "...whenever I had occasion to speak to my father, though I had no hat now to offend him [the author had stopped taking off his hat before his dad], yet my language did as much; fur I durst not say "you" to him, but "thou", or "thee" as the occasion required, and then would he be sure to fall on me with his fists.

    At one of these times, I remember, when he had beaten me in that manner, he commanded me, as he commonly did at such times, to go to my chamber, which I did, and he followed me to the bottom of the stairs. Being come thither, he gave me a parting blow, and in a very angry tone said, "Sirrah, if ever I hear you say 'thou' or 'thee' to me again, I'll strike your teeth down your throat." "
    Quote Originally Posted by J.R.R. Tolkien, 1955
    I thought Tom Bombadil dreadful — but worse still was the announcer's preliminary remarks that Goldberry was his daughter (!), and that Willowman was an ally of Mordor (!!).

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    Default Re: Respectful term for nonbinary people and people of unknown gender?

    So if I understand correctly, Dad got offended when the author said "you" but also got offended when addressed as "thou".

    Looks like Dad was looking for an excuse to be offended. Another thing I was blaming on the internet.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scarlet Knight View Post
    So if I understand correctly, Dad got offended when the author said "you" but also got offended when addressed as "thou".

    Looks like Dad was looking for an excuse to be offended. Another thing I was blaming on the internet.
    I think the dad was only offended when addressed as "thou", which is why the child made a point to use it.
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