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  1. - Top - End - #271
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    Default Re: Pokémon Thread XXIX: Sword, Shield, and Spoilers

    Quote Originally Posted by OracleofWuffing View Post
    Seems you're not familiar with the TCG rules. The game retires cards out every one or two years, and has been doing so since 2001. There's a nonzero chance that the TCG's rotating play inspired the decision for Sword and Shield, but that's speculation. I, uh, also want to say that I remember them mumbling about how there's so many pokemon that it's hard to account for every interaction for two or three generations now, but I just got home and don't want to research that memory.
    Yes. I know. I am familiar with TCG rules, I play one. this the exact reason why I said they should know better.

    Because TCGs are never balanced.

    Okay? in TCGs, it doesn't matter how many times the cards rotate out, this doesn't bring balance. it brings optimizers finding new ways to win and new things to discard as weak. the rotation is not for balancing purposes, its so that people have to buy new packs and so that the meta doesn't get stagnant playing the same things over and over again, it doesn't solve balancing issues, it solves boredom issues.

    so claiming that they're doing this for balance is like banning the top player in a competition for the next one. it doesn't actually solve the issues, it just means there is a new number one that was previously number two. but thats assuming best case scenario and that they're actually getting rid of powerful stuff, they're getting rid of what is generally the bottom, so its not even changing it really because your just making it even more stagnant by eliminating things you could've buffed to fix it.

    and yes it hard to account for every interaction. I don't really care. mostly because I don't have time to find them. but I do have time to find every pokemon. doing this is just giving competitive players more say in things than they should. I don't want some IV-breeding competitor trying to win no matter what determine what I can and cannot catch. just as I don't like any optimizer determining anything I play by their own obsessive need to get the best most possible thing to win. why should my playstyle be punished because some jerkoff likes winning too much?
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    Default Re: Pokémon Thread XXIX: Sword, Shield, and Spoilers

    I'm sorry, I didn't mean that to come off as a slight to you.

    I intended to clarify that it wasn't their ignorance on the matter, as they have a test market that they've practiced it for a while. And to reiterate, I agree that it's silly that they hide behind a balance concern: We've seen footage of Noctowl and Tyranitar, so that's either saying Tyranitar's getting nerfed hard or Noctowl getting buffed something ridiculous. (Oooor they just like Noctowl and the balance concern is as meaningless as we believe, but I'm trying to look like there's a benefit of a doubt here. )

    I wouldn't be surprised if they're not even looking at the "Competitive Scene" as the "hardcore players" on the internet see it, and are just looking through their own usage stats from WiFi battles, cutting off some 10% range, and not looking for any context. Balance, from the same people that gave us Speed Boost Blaziken, Mega Kangaskahn, and Aegislash.
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    Default Re: Pokémon Thread XXIX: Sword, Shield, and Spoilers

    I think they mean balance among the Pokemon in the game, for usage in completing the game. What they mean to say is they don't want to have a game with a lot of the same exact Pokemon, because they've made, say, 7 different versions of "generic 3-stage Bird evolution you can get early in the game" and they feel like a lot of them at once would just be the same Pokemon everyone uses all the time. Though all of them do have significant differences, I think at this point they're trying to make sure every Pokemon at least has a use or a niche in-game, which isn't really how it is these days with like 700 of them.

    Restricting which Pokemon are available also opens up more options for design. There's a lot of Pokemon that are just completely invalidated by the existence of others that might become more useful or interesting with the absence of their strictly-betters, and others that might change in power because others have left the scene. I think rotational Pokemon are pretty interesting, and there's a lot more design space from Game Freak's perspective opened up for new Pokemon when they can remove old ones that just make the new ones utterly pointless.
    Last edited by tgva8889; 2019-06-15 at 01:14 AM.
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    Default Re: Pokémon Thread XXIX: Sword, Shield, and Spoilers

    Quote Originally Posted by tgva8889 View Post
    I think they mean balance among the Pokemon in the game, for usage in completing the game. What they mean to say is they don't want to have a game with a lot of the same exact Pokemon, because they've made, say, 7 different versions of "generic 3-stage Bird evolution you can get early in the game" and they feel like a lot of them at once would just be the same Pokemon everyone uses all the time. Though all of them do have significant differences, I think at this point they're trying to make sure every Pokemon at least has a use or a niche in-game, which isn't really how it is these days with like 700 of them.

    Restricting which Pokemon are available also opens up more options for design. There's a lot of Pokemon that are just completely invalidated by the existence of others that might become more useful or interesting with the absence of their strictly-betters, and others that might change in power because others have left the scene. I think rotational Pokemon are pretty interesting, and there's a lot more design space from Game Freak's perspective opened up for new Pokemon when they can remove old ones that just make the new ones utterly pointless.
    short term thinking then.

    because once the generation is over, the next rotation happens, guess what? you have to do it all over again except get rid of even more pokemon so the pokemon introduced in Gen 8 don't step on Gen 9's toes. that means they're making clones of other pokemon that we already have, but don't want us to compare them and think they're useless, when that won't work, we'll compare and figure out what they're bad clones anyways!

    whelp good run with that catch em all thing, welcome to the same stupid merry go round of it all just be seasonal and fashion instead of keeping what we like and having an actual freaking choice in what we use. optimization ruins everything again by convincing people we have to do this stupid freaking cycle of getting rid of things we love for these new things that we may or may not love. doesn't matter how interesting it is, its all combo bull that will inevitably be found by optimization monkeys banging their fingers on typewriters, then when one monkey finds shakespeare at random they all start copying him.

    none of it is solving the problem, only focusing it somewhere else to give the illusion of spotlight.
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    Default Re: Pokémon Thread XXIX: Sword, Shield, and Spoilers

    Anyone got any predictions for the Legendary mon?

    Zamazenta is my fave of the two. Given its colours, possibly Fire, but also given that it's Shield design alludes to being defensive, I'm intrigued as to how that might work. Steel and Fire given what I can seems rather obvious, but unsure how it works. There is Heatran as an example - the big Ground weakness, and lack of resists, notably to Spikes or Stealth Rock already makes me a bit lairy unless it has Magic Guard, or Magic Guard+ as its ability. I'm assuming Steel, given its a Shield, but may be wrong.

    LGEE sort of trialed offensive moves providing Screens. I don't particularly like Geomancy as a Status Legendary, nor Lunar Dance, and I hope that there is some form of Offensive Move providing Dual Screens here. Baddy Bad etc was 90BP. I don't see a reason why this move wouldn't be. Given that it is likely to have a low BP, (STAB offense and potential perma screens?) that means it is going to need other forms of damage and coverage.

    King's Shield sounds like it was written for this mon, making it an excellent Physical Wall between Reflect going up and the Attack drops from King Shield. Toxic would be its next follow up. Presuming Steel offensive coverage, that makes it susceptible to Steel, Fire and electric, so Earthquake to round the set off. I can't imagine this mon with healing.

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    Default Re: Pokémon Thread XXIX: Sword, Shield, and Spoilers

    Quote Originally Posted by tgva8889 View Post
    I think they mean balance among the Pokemon in the game, for usage in completing the game. What they mean to say is they don't want to have a game with a lot of the same exact Pokemon, because they've made, say, 7 different versions of "generic 3-stage Bird evolution you can get early in the game" and they feel like a lot of them at once would just be the same Pokemon everyone uses all the time. Though all of them do have significant differences, I think at this point they're trying to make sure every Pokemon at least has a use or a niche in-game, which isn't really how it is these days with like 700 of them.

    Restricting which Pokemon are available also opens up more options for design. There's a lot of Pokemon that are just completely invalidated by the existence of others that might become more useful or interesting with the absence of their strictly-betters, and others that might change in power because others have left the scene. I think rotational Pokemon are pretty interesting, and there's a lot more design space from Game Freak's perspective opened up for new Pokemon when they can remove old ones that just make the new ones utterly pointless.
    I agree that balancing the Pokémon available within the main game and opening up new design space by restricting which Pokémon are available are worthy efforts, but I think that things the series has already done are better solutions than just leaving some Pokémon out of the game. Specifically, balance among the main game mons could be preserved by restricting transfers to the postgame, and giving online battles and the battle facility of the game a format where only regional dex mons are allowed and one where all are allowed.
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  7. - Top - End - #277
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    Default Re: Pokémon Thread XXIX: Sword, Shield, and Spoilers

    Quote Originally Posted by OracleofWuffing View Post

    I wouldn't be surprised if they're not even looking at the "Competitive Scene" as the "hardcore players" on the internet see it, and are just looking through their own usage stats from WiFi battles, cutting off some 10% range, and not looking for any context. Balance, from the same people that gave us Speed Boost Blaziken, Mega Kangaskahn, and Aegislash.
    I think we're seeing a major disconnect here that's fairly common on the internet, given what's going on and your comment kind of brought it up.
    The competitive scene is tiny and the internet community presents just a tiny, tiny subset whose goals for the game are so bent towards competitive they're pretty much not applicable towards the larger user base.

    Game freak... probably doesn't care about most of the controversy, except maybe the "what do you mean I can't catch them all" set.

    I mean they could bend the game towards the more competitive scene, start building its framework targeting the top, but let's just look to see what the reputation of the MOBA community is.
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    Default Re: Pokémon Thread XXIX: Sword, Shield, and Spoilers

    Quote Originally Posted by MCerberus View Post
    Game freak... probably doesn't care about most of the controversy, except maybe the "what do you mean I can't catch them all" set.
    Trivia, while the first red/blue/gold/silver had the "catch them all" motto, Ruby/Saphire discretly dropped it.
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    ...so we built a five millionth, three hundreth, twenty first one. That one burned down, fell over, then got eaten by the snarl, but the five millionth, three hundreth, and twenty second one stayed up! Or at least, it has been until now."

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    Default Re: Pokémon Thread XXIX: Sword, Shield, and Spoilers

    I think it's also probably just a programming issue, in that programming Pokemon into this game when you more or less can't get them any other way than transferring them from Pokemon Home might just be too many assets to add to the game, or might delay the game a long enough time that they would rather just not do it. Game development has a lot of issues, and it's possible all the other stuff they've tried to make possible just wouldn't allow for a thousand Pokemon. I mean, I think it's possible every Pokemon in this game has a model that appears in the overworld that you can encounter which probably took a bit of planning.

    I don't know why they made this decision, but I think they must have made it in order to make the game the way they wanted to make it, so there must have been some issue going on that made it necessary.
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    Default Re: Pokémon Thread XXIX: Sword, Shield, and Spoilers

    Quote Originally Posted by tgva8889 View Post
    I think it's also probably just a programming issue, in that programming Pokemon into this game when you more or less can't get them any other way than transferring them from Pokemon Home might just be too many assets to add to the game, or might delay the game a long enough time that they would rather just not do it. Game development has a lot of issues, and it's possible all the other stuff they've tried to make possible just wouldn't allow for a thousand Pokemon. I mean, I think it's possible every Pokemon in this game has a model that appears in the overworld that you can encounter which probably took a bit of planning.
    Yeah, plus besides the models, one also needs to convert the actual stats and fluff text and decide where they go, and that really adds up if you want to do it hundreds of times.
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    "You know, Durkon, I built this planet up from nothing. When I started here, all there was was a snarl. All the other gods said we were daft to build a planet over a snarl, but I built it all the same, just to show then. It got eaten by the snarl...

    ...so we built a five millionth, three hundreth, twenty first one. That one burned down, fell over, then got eaten by the snarl, but the five millionth, three hundreth, and twenty second one stayed up! Or at least, it has been until now."

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    Default Re: Pokémon Thread XXIX: Sword, Shield, and Spoilers

    The competitive scene is blatantly a concern as balance is used as a reason to not include them. If its main game balance, gate them after the e4 or post game content, like the Omega Mission, Ultra Beast hunt/Rainbow Rocket etc. Any competitive battling hosted by Nintendo, such as Worlds can simply have a ban on what is entered. You know, like they have done every year previously. Having a restricted pick list, outright bans, etc. Having some competitions that are Galar only would be fine. Having the game allow you to pick certain lobbies, such as a National Dex or Galar Dex competition, even if not going outright copying of Smogon based Tiering, would be balance fixing.

    The copying of stats is not an issue. Ctrl+C, Ctrl+V. Apply a "balance" wand wave over some min you want to encourage in a meta, badabing. Cast a cursory eye over whatever new moves you want to add to the various learnsets and egg groups (the number of new signature moves for example shows that GF are barely even bothering to balance wider mon. Accelerock would be an excellent move, but is instead give to one pretty garbo mon, even with its later buff. Give it to Aerodactyl, or TTar and watch the world begin to burn. But, it's not.) then again, all mon got access to ZMoves so having a smaller new move pool and less power moves was to be expected I guess. All mon got access to 1 of 2 moves (or 3, if they could reasonably run Phys or Special sets) for every type of move they learned thanks to ZCrystal.

    Sure, writing a 1 or 2 sentence fluff line for 1000+ mon might get time intensive, but I think if you asked if people would prefer if only mon present in Galar got new pokedex fluff, but others just got copied USUM fluff, but were still included included, I think you know what the answer would be.

    Balance is a none issue. There will always be a meta that evolves to what is in it. LGEE still have garbo tier mon you would never pick, as well as team staples, and banned to Ubers. That there are only like 80 mon in the meta doesn't change that fact.

    My concern with Smogon is that their rating system for pokemon has not changed since the early days. OU is OU, but the size of the meta encompasses so many mon, that there are inevitably mon which never get used as they are not good enough for STier OU games, but are banned from UU. That is something that needs a correction, and if anything, could do with perhaps a hard cap on the number of mon in a tier. I dunno, I'll leave that to the guys running the meta and making money from the comp scene to make that call. But that is outside of GF concern. That is a meta community, which attempts to provide a more balanced and serious environment, where you can face like minded individuals - hopefully the idea being that you can run your monotype PU mon, and only fight against others running monotype PU, without risking going to AG++ and getting merked by MegaRayquaza.

    So, balance is no issue. Copying content is not an issue. Time is not an issue, given patches exist etc. The issue is potentially lack of profits and a reduced return from the time spent adding those mon to the game. But that is what, 150-200k of sunk costs? If 20,000 units are not sold as a result of this, then the profit is already less than if it was included.

    If you think that there are some people who would have bought game 1 and 2, and then either then 3rd in the trilogy, or even both of the second games, such us/um, and they decide like me, to wait until game 2, and only get 1, that is 3 units not sold.

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    Default Re: Pokémon Thread XXIX: Sword, Shield, and Spoilers

    I think the concern about the work of adding content is overestimating the work involved (as well as disregarding Masuda's summary, "But yeah, it was pretty much just balancing and getting this optimal selection of Pokemon for the adventure we wanted to provide," but for the sake of discussion).

    The models and animation have already been made: Sun and Moon have overworld models and animation for all pokemon up to that point, they just didn't use them. The stats just get converted using the same method you use for the pokemon that are going to make the cut: whether you're importing pokemon species A or pokemon species 1 from Pokemon home, the stats are treated the same way (and that's assuming there is a change in stats in the first place). There is no need to "Decide where they go," much like how there was no need to decide where Chikorita goes in Diamond, Pearl, Platinum, Black/2, White/2, X, Y, Omega Ruby, Alpha Sapphire, and Ultra/Sun/Moon. Fluff text is only a concern if you give them fluff text, and we kinda only had Pokedex Entries via Pokemon Bank last generation regardless. Having programming space to fit it all on the card? Well, Ultra Sun takes up approximately 3.5 Gigabytes of space on the 3DS, which was lots a decade or two ago but the Switch has 32 GB built-in.

    As I said previously, it's all just texture editing. You want it done cheap? You can toss all your textures into any graphic editor worth using and batch convert them with an appropriate resampling algorithm before you sleep. If your computer's worth using for developing a primary Nintendo Property, they will all be done in an hour. And that's assuming that you don't already have a larger texture file from the concept art stage before the Art Director decided how low to scale the models down. They've done this before, too: Pokemon Coliseum's old pokemon models are just Pokemon Stadium 2's models with resized textures. Yes, I know, Genius Sonority is not Game Freaks, but they still signed off on the license for it and pitched it as biggest graphical spectacle for pokemon battles of their time.

    Sure, you can tweak the move sets, base stats, and abilities in between generations, and yes, that would be a consideration that, without due oversight, might get out of hand. I'll grant that. After all, all that hard work they gave buffing pokemon like Arbok, Masquerain, Ariados, Magcargo, Qwilfish, Delcatty, Illumise, and Cryogonal to be competitively viable in our current generation's metagame should be recognized.

    I really hate that Masquerain's on that list, I like Masquerain, but I'm pretty certain it hasn't won many Nintendo-sanctioned tournaments.

    To bring things around to a different subject, one thing I've been pondering about is, hypothetically, if they just said, "You can import any pokemon that is not a Legendary or Ultra Beats" from Pokemon Home. I'm certain many will disagree- and rightfully so- but I'd disgruntingly accept that scenario. But the arbitrariness of "Some pokemon just don't fit into our glorious vision of balance and the Galar region," is just hurting it for me. Why should I import my pokemon to Pokemon Home if they can't battle? So I can trade them? Okay, but uh, why does another person want a pokemon that can't participate in battles? Are they making Pokemon Home just so someone can have the world's largest collection of Zubats?
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  13. - Top - End - #283
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    Default Re: Pokémon Thread XXIX: Sword, Shield, and Spoilers

    Quote Originally Posted by deuterio12 View Post
    Yeah, plus besides the models, one also needs to convert the actual stats and fluff text and decide where they go, and that really adds up if you want to do it hundreds of times.
    Honestly, that sounds like a job for a script. Or one person managing spreadsheets for a week. There should be no meaningful difference between porting over 600 Pokémon and 800 Pokémon, even with learnsets and such.

    It becomes a bit more work given that pokédex entries are usually rewritten, but they're usually rewritten pretty lazily, being almost the same as in the last generation. (In English at least.)
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    Default Re: Pokémon Thread XXIX: Sword, Shield, and Spoilers

    Quote Originally Posted by Lvl 2 Expert View Post
    Honestly, that sounds like a job for a script. Or one person managing spreadsheets for a week. There should be no meaningful difference between porting over 600 Pokémon and 800 Pokémon, even with learnsets and such.

    It becomes a bit more work given that pokédex entries are usually rewritten, but they're usually rewritten pretty lazily, being almost the same as in the last generation. (In English at least.)
    Great, now translate them to German, Spanish, French, Italian, Korean, plus Simplified and Traditional Chinese too in a way that makes sense.

    Meanwhile Pokemon Let's Go took at least around one year to make for just porting 150 pokemons in a game that's just a re-remake of the first one.

    So clearly porting stuff in a professional way isn't as simple as that, in particular for a completely new game engine and even more for a new setting. It's highly probable it may've taken over one year of extra work.

    Ctrl+c and ctrl+v only works if both engines have compatible languages, but that is a luxury in the land of programming, not a given, even inside the same studio. And that would be assuming they're sticking to the same formulas instead of trying new stuff.
    Last edited by deuterio12; 2019-06-16 at 04:42 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Of Mantas View Post
    "You know, Durkon, I built this planet up from nothing. When I started here, all there was was a snarl. All the other gods said we were daft to build a planet over a snarl, but I built it all the same, just to show then. It got eaten by the snarl...

    ...so we built a five millionth, three hundreth, twenty first one. That one burned down, fell over, then got eaten by the snarl, but the five millionth, three hundreth, and twenty second one stayed up! Or at least, it has been until now."

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    Default Re: Pokémon Thread XXIX: Sword, Shield, and Spoilers

    Quote Originally Posted by deuterio12 View Post
    Great, now translate them to German, Spanish, French, Italian, Korean, plus Simplified and Traditional Chinese too in a way that makes sense.
    I'm unsure of your point. The already existing translation are already there. They do not need translating again if you are bringing back USUM info for non Galar Dex mon.

    Meanwhile Pokemon Let's Go took at least around one year to make for just porting 150 pokemons in a game that's just a re-remake of the first one.
    New engine, new console, new mechanics, new region... Not all of the year was porting over those pokemon.

    So clearly porting stuff in a professional way isn't as simple as that, in particular for a completely new game engine and even more for a new setting. It's highly probable it may've taken over one year of extra work.
    I'm unsure as to what sort of company knowing it will be forward thinking and eventually remaking it does not look into the work flow process to streamline that. Once the 3d models are created, that is that. The models can be downscale, flated, mapped, and texture edited but once they are there, short of a QC pass or 2, to ensure outliers don't exist (which should be happening in any case), the porting over the actual pokemon's data is not going to be the long thing here.

    Ctrl+c and ctrl+v only works if both engines have compatible languages, but that is a luxury in the land of programming, not a given, even inside the same studio. And that would be assuming they're sticking to the same formulas instead of trying new stuff.
    Have the languages pull that information from a core info dump. I build spreadsheets for companies tk send bulk application requests for payment. Wherever that information comes from, whatever systems you have in place, if you cannot export that into a common language (i.e, Csv) and then have that information elsewhere, then you have to go through a painstaking process of getting that information from screen 1 to screen 2. I can do this for companies who can afford to pay my minimum rare for an afternoon, or for major international construction companies.

    That pokemon, of all companies, is not able to export from their own version of essentially Pokémon Hacking software, and have that exported into a game file in a matter of minutes is a ridiculous thought.

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    Default Re: Pokémon Thread XXIX: Sword, Shield, and Spoilers

    Quote Originally Posted by NatureKing View Post
    New engine, new console, new mechanics, new region... Not all of the year was porting over those pokemon.
    Apply this to Sword/Shield as well while you're at it.

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    Default Re: Pokémon Thread XXIX: Sword, Shield, and Spoilers

    Quote Originally Posted by NatureKing View Post
    I'm unsure of your point. The already existing translation are already there. They do not need translating again if you are bringing back USUM info for non Galar Dex mon.
    New game, new fluff, new translations.

    Quote Originally Posted by NatureKing View Post
    New engine, new console, new mechanics, new region... Not all of the year was porting over those pokemon.
    Meaning even less time/resources for porting pokemon.

    Quote Originally Posted by NatureKing View Post
    I'm unsure as to what sort of company knowing it will be forward thinking and eventually remaking it does not look into the work flow process to streamline that. Once the 3d models are created, that is that. The models can be downscale, flated, mapped, and texture edited but once they are there, short of a QC pass or 2, to ensure outliers don't exist (which should be happening in any case), the porting over the actual pokemon's data is not going to be the long thing here.

    Have the languages pull that information from a core info dump. I build spreadsheets for companies tk send bulk application requests for payment. Wherever that information comes from, whatever systems you have in place, if you cannot export that into a common language (i.e, Csv) and then have that information elsewhere, then you have to go through a painstaking process of getting that information from screen 1 to screen 2. I can do this for companies who can afford to pay my minimum rare for an afternoon, or for major international construction companies.

    That pokemon, of all companies, is not able to export from their own version of essentially Pokémon Hacking software, and have that exported into a game file in a matter of minutes is a ridiculous thought.
    Tell that to Microsoft and all their compatibility problems between each differet version of their OS. Microsoft's multiple orders of magnitude more powerful and richer than Game Freak, yet they can't do it, or at least not whitout a zillion bugs that would make Sword and Shield crash every 5 minutes.
    Last edited by deuterio12; 2019-06-16 at 08:03 AM.
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    "You know, Durkon, I built this planet up from nothing. When I started here, all there was was a snarl. All the other gods said we were daft to build a planet over a snarl, but I built it all the same, just to show then. It got eaten by the snarl...

    ...so we built a five millionth, three hundreth, twenty first one. That one burned down, fell over, then got eaten by the snarl, but the five millionth, three hundreth, and twenty second one stayed up! Or at least, it has been until now."

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    Default Re: Pokémon Thread XXIX: Sword, Shield, and Spoilers

    Quote Originally Posted by deuterio12 View Post
    New game, new fluff, new translations.
    You missed the point where absolutely none of that is necessary. Ask if people would prefer USUM fluff on non Galar pokemon but having non Galar mon in game, or no Non Galar mon present?


    Meaning even less time/resources for porting pokemon.
    Whenever you go to drive a car, do you need to relearn how to drive again? The architecture is there already.

    Tell that to Microsoft and all their compatibility problems between each differet version of their OS. Microsoft's multiple orders of magnitude more powerful and richer than Game Freak, yet they can't do it, or at least not whitout a zillion bugs that would make Sword and Shield crash every 5 minutes.
    You don't really have a clue what you're talking if you are equating new a OS to looking up data from a table, which is all a learnset and Stat profile is.

    The issue is having the Pokemon in the game. Once you have one pokemon in, you have all of them. Animation file, textures, 3d model, sprite, stats... All of those are going to be exactly the same in format. Dragonite is not going to have a different file format of learnset to Caterpie. The 3d model for Garchomp is going to be the same format, same plugins, same coding as Mankey.

    An OS has entirely different architecture from one to another. You can't tell it to point at a table that is no longer present.

    Neither have Gamefreak come out and said 'it's too difficult and we have run out time to get all pokemon in'. That is on the same vein of people saying 'it takes up too much space' which has been disproved.

    What they have said is 'balance'. Which is either for story mode (false, gate behind story progression), or for competitive (ham-fisted meta alteration getting in the way of people playing what they want).

    It can't be a matter of time, because copying and pasting stats from one media to another is easy (and if it wasn't, why would you choose Noctowl to be a flagship of your new media format?).

    So what reason is it?

    Quote Originally Posted by Razade View Post
    Apply this to Sword/Shield as well while you're at it.
    o.O I did... Do? 'oh it took a year to import pokemon',. No, it did not. Apply that to Sword and Shield. 'it did not take a year to import pokemon'?

    What is your point? It wouldn't have taken a year to import the Pokemon over.
    Last edited by NatureKing; 2019-06-16 at 04:21 PM.

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    Default Re: Pokémon Thread XXIX: Sword, Shield, and Spoilers

    I think a lot of people are underestimating how complicated and difficult game development is. I wouldn't be surprised if it was just impossible for them to add new Pokemon without many years of effort, and they decided that this was just the best way to get out a Pokemon game that people would enjoy. If you don't want to get it because your favorite Pokemon was in it, I think that's your choice, but I think this decision is probably one they spent a lot of time making and were forced to make for the good of the game.

    Given how much I've enjoyed the past games, I'm okay with them doing this and seeing how it goes. If I don't end up appreciating it, I can always decide not to try any more. I can't blame you for thinking that this is a bad plan, but at this point I think it is late enough in the process that if they say they have no intention of fixing this, they're not going to.

    It's worth noting that this isn't the first time something like this has happened; Generation III was not backwards compatible with previous games. Based on what I've seen, I'm also lead to believe that because of Dynamax, there are twice as many moves in this game as they are in other games because every move has a Dynamax variant, each with its own giant animations which is probably a lot of animations. In addition, because this is the highest-power game console Pokemon games have been on, there's probably some efforts spent on improving all the models which takes up a lot of development time. This is on top of all the new content that is added, much of which we don't even know about. It's entirely possible too that this is just a completely new game engine that, for example, calculates stats completely differently than Gen 7 which means direct transfer maybe has enough more hurdles to go through that they couldn't do it if there wasn't time to make a direct translation. I don't know how reasonable it is to patch all of these things in, and who knows maybe they'll make it, but if it is just for balance reasons then maybe it'll be interesting to try. As someone who doesn't care that much about competitive Pokemon these days it doesn't matter much to me anyways.
    Last edited by tgva8889; 2019-06-17 at 01:03 AM.
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    Default Re: Pokémon Thread XXIX: Sword, Shield, and Spoilers

    Quote Originally Posted by tgva8889 View Post
    I think a lot of people are underestimating how complicated and difficult game development is.
    If your emotional impulse is to defend GameFreak, it can also be easy to overestimate how complicated or difficult something is.

    Both things can be true - that there were genuine technical issues that prevented GameFreak from including all the Pokémon in their games, and that those technical issues couldn't be solved in any other way because GameFreak lacks the manpower, the talent or the drive to find one.

    It's worth noting that this isn't the first time something like this has happened; Generation III was not backwards compatible with previous games.
    Gen III isn't the same case at all - in Gen III all Pokémon were in the code, and each game was fully sideways compatible. In the upcoming Generation VIII, the only way to house a full Pokémon collection in one place is Pokémon Home. That's if they aren't cutting some Pokémon completely, even from other Gen VIII games (like a hypothetical D/P remake).

    If Pokémon Home was free, it'd alleviate a lot of misgivings. I've seen nothing to indicate that it is. Bank wasn't, and that always felt like highway robbery to me.



    Anyway, even Masuda doesn't make the claim that including all the Pokémon in Sword/Shield would have been impossible or difficult. He says that it's a decision they'd be forced to make eventually, not that it's one that they had to make to get Sword/Shield out on time (though it's quite possible that it was and he's just not saying so). Now, I don't doubt that eventually keeping all the Pokémon straight would become a project management challenge of some kind - but I don't believe it's one that couldn't be handled. They're just making a choice not to handle it.

    I'm more inclined to allow the "game development is difficult" defense if we're talking about indie developers working on shoestring budgets. That's not what GameFreak is.
    Last edited by Silfir; 2019-06-17 at 05:49 AM.
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    Default Re: Pokémon Thread XXIX: Sword, Shield, and Spoilers

    Quote Originally Posted by Silfir View Post
    If Pokémon Home was free, it'd alleviate a lot of misgivings. I've seen nothing to indicate that it is. Bank wasn't, and that always felt like highway robbery to me.
    Well, „free” in the sense that it gets included in the Nintendo Online fee maybe.
    But yeah, if it has it's own additional cost that would be a bit much.
    5€ a year so I can store all my beasties in one place? Okay.
    Paying that in addition to 20€ a year?
    Well... still less expensive than other services I guess.

    Anyway, even Masuda doesn't make the claim that including all the Pokémon in Sword/Shield would have been impossible or difficult. He says that it's a decision they'd be forced to make eventually, not that it's one that they had to make to get Sword/Shield out on time (though it's quite possible that it was and he's just not saying so). Now, I don't doubt that eventually keeping all the Pokémon straight would become a project management challenge of some kind - but I don't believe it's one that couldn't be handled. They're just making a choice not to handle it.
    Well, if Gamefreak has to implement this sooner or later anyway, why not now?
    A new Gen. on a new system seems like a good point to do so.
    I mean, it's not as if the reactions will be any different if they do so in a later game.
    Also, in retrospect not including a Regional Dex in the Alola games was a hint this was coming.

    Actually I was already of the opinion they should do something like this.
    The roster already is pretty bloated.
    I mean we have what? 900? Mons at this point?

    Sure, not keeping my collection together sucks, but the same happened between Gen. 2 and 3.
    So I'm going to do the same thing I did then.
    Start a new collection and enjoy the new games for the new (and) old they have to offer.
    Last edited by Kantaki; 2019-06-17 at 11:28 AM.
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    Default Re: Pokémon Thread XXIX: Sword, Shield, and Spoilers

    Some people here are quite optimistic how easy porting things are.

    Meanwhile at least half the people I know that the job involves programming would refuse to upgrade their work programs at gunpoint because they had too many bad experiences with previous updating making their previous projects/alghorytms buggy if not completely unuseable, forcing them to remake said programs from scratch.

    Quote Originally Posted by Silfir View Post
    Anyway, even Masuda doesn't make the claim that including all the Pokémon in Sword/Shield would have been impossible or difficult. He says that it's a decision they'd be forced to make eventually, not that it's one that they had to make to get Sword/Shield out on time (though it's quite possible that it was and he's just not saying so). Now, I don't doubt that eventually keeping all the Pokémon straight would become a project management challenge of some kind - but I don't believe it's one that couldn't be handled. They're just making a choice not to handle it.

    I'm more inclined to allow the "game development is difficult" defense if we're talking about indie developers working on shoestring budgets. That's not what GameFreak is.
    So Microsoft's an indie developer on shoestring budget now?

    Plus I recall now that Game Freak isn't only doing pokemon. They're also working in Gigawrecker and preparing their upcoming Town game, leaving even less time for porting stuff.

    But let's do this the other way.

    Name ten games made by companies of the same size or smaller than gamefreak that ported 800+monsters from their previous entries in one year or less.


    No bugs. No delays. Not a monster left behind. If it's that easy, then you should have no trouble finding plenty of examples.
    Last edited by deuterio12; 2019-06-17 at 07:16 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Of Mantas View Post
    "You know, Durkon, I built this planet up from nothing. When I started here, all there was was a snarl. All the other gods said we were daft to build a planet over a snarl, but I built it all the same, just to show then. It got eaten by the snarl...

    ...so we built a five millionth, three hundreth, twenty first one. That one burned down, fell over, then got eaten by the snarl, but the five millionth, three hundreth, and twenty second one stayed up! Or at least, it has been until now."

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    Default Re: Pokémon Thread XXIX: Sword, Shield, and Spoilers

    Pokemon are data, not code. Porting code is annoying and potentially breaks things, but unless they're making significant changes to the mechanics - on the level of the changes made from gen 2 to 3, where all the base stats are different - the only Pokemon that would even have the potential to be nontrivial to port are the ones that do some weird custom unique thing. So... Spinda, unless they drop it's spot thing, and Komala, nothing else forces a status on itself, and the ones with form changes? Oh, and Shedinja for it's evolution, and Slakoth/Slaking. I don't think there's anything else.

    Nothing else would need to be done manually. A Pokemon is a list of numbers, and if the numbers are in a different order in the new games that still wouldn't take ten minutes to write a converter.

    And it should all fit in the same engine they used for Let's Go, same as how they've reused the engine every other time there's multiple games on the same hardware.
    Quote Originally Posted by jamieth View Post
    ...though Talla does her best to sound objective and impartial, it doesn't cover stuff like "ask a 9-year-old to tank for the party."
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    Default Re: Pokémon Thread XXIX: Sword, Shield, and Spoilers

    Even giants like Nintendo have development issues. Fire Emblem was supposed to come out a year ago and the new Metroid game got scrapped and restarted. Deadlines and goals have to be met, and sometimes that means resources that could be spent on some things are instead spent on other things.

    The big thing about the announcement that raises questions to me is the "we have no intention to put them in" thing. I dunno how big a patch this would require, but certainly it seems like the kind of thing that should be a project for them down the road. Maybe this will be Version 2, but that still seems kind of strange to me; I would guess this is just not a thing that's happening at all if they're saying that.
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    Default Re: Pokémon Thread XXIX: Sword, Shield, and Spoilers

    I wonder what unoriginal Pokemon is Swords and Shields going to released this time. Oh if anyone interested of battling me in Pokemon Let's Go Overused Format game. My name is Bartmanhomer in Pokemonshowdown.com

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    Default Re: Pokémon Thread XXIX: Sword, Shield, and Spoilers

    Quote Originally Posted by tgva8889 View Post
    Even giants like Nintendo have development issues. Fire Emblem was supposed to come out a year ago and the new Metroid game got scrapped and restarted. Deadlines and goals have to be met, and sometimes that means resources that could be spent on some things are instead spent on other things.

    The big thing about the announcement that raises questions to me is the "we have no intention to put them in" thing. I dunno how big a patch this would require, but certainly it seems like the kind of thing that should be a project for them down the road. Maybe this will be Version 2, but that still seems kind of strange to me; I would guess this is just not a thing that's happening at all if they're saying that.
    Yeah. It is odd. If it was dev issues and they were planning it for a patch – fine, low-effort is not zero effort, and since you wouldn't be able to import mons without internet anyway it's not such a big deal if you need a patch.

    But... just dropping them? Presumably they have a reason but I can't say I understand why.

    And, I mean, porting "over 800" Pokemon? The structure of the data in the old games is known. The structure of the data in the new games is known. The exact list of previous-generation Pokemon is known in full. There's no third-party deciding to change the format out from under you without warning. There's not even a million rows in the table. My job is roughly "write scripts to move data from one database to another, with a different schema" and I wish it was always as easy as this would be. If Game Freak has somehow managed to make this a difficult task, either there's a clueless higher-up who got so hugely overambitious that they decided everything stat, move, and ability in the game must be rebalanced from scratch (and then refused to allow anything to be reused from Let's Go), or someone's screwed up on a similar magnitude to "deleted all backups of source from the last two generations of games and for legal reasons we can't look at any of the fan-run sites that have full copies and rips of all this information".
    Quote Originally Posted by jamieth View Post
    ...though Talla does her best to sound objective and impartial, it doesn't cover stuff like "ask a 9-year-old to tank for the party."
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    Default Re: Pokémon Thread XXIX: Sword, Shield, and Spoilers

    Quote Originally Posted by deuterio12 View Post
    Some people here are quite optimistic how easy porting things are.

    Meanwhile at least half the people I know that the job involves programming would refuse to upgrade their work programs at gunpoint because they had too many bad experiences with previous updating making their previous projects/alghorytms buggy if not completely unuseable, forcing them to remake said programs from scratch.



    So Microsoft's an indie developer on shoestring budget now?

    Plus I recall now that Game Freak isn't only doing pokemon. They're also working in Gigawrecker and preparing their upcoming Town game, leaving even less time for porting stuff.

    But let's do this the other way.

    Name ten games made by companies of the same size or smaller than gamefreak that ported 800+monsters from their previous entries in one year or less.


    No bugs. No delays. Not a monster left behind. If it's that easy, then you should have no trouble finding plenty of examples.
    What possible earthly relevance does Microsoft have to this conversation?

    Or for that matter, your "Name ten games" thing? Why are you trying to send me on a fetch quest rather than make an argument that has substance of its own?

    There's not much of an argument to be had here anyway. You believe Masuda when he says it had to be done eventually, I don't. I have no idea why he or GameFreak merit that special level of trust in your eyes - particularly since you also seem to be aware that they're splitting their attention across several projects, and so you have to know that if they're understaffed, they're understaffed by choice.

    Ultimately, trust is in the gut; it's there or it isn't. Probably best to leave it at that.
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    Default Re: Pokémon Thread XXIX: Sword, Shield, and Spoilers

    I am surprised by the people who defend Game Freak´s decision.

    I could understand the position they were in if there were any points that suggested issues on their part. But I cant think of anything. The game as a whole is completely unimpressive when compared to other games that came last two years on the switch, the animations of the people and pokemon are nothing to write home about (pokemon battle revolution has better animations), they took out mechanics from past games like mega evolutions and z moves which means even less work to be done. They have even less work to do since they already have 153 pokemon from pokemon lets go eevee and pikachu to use (and game freak loves to reuse assests). They even have money since we are talking about the biggest franchise in the world so that cant be the issue either. People´s feedback on the subject has been quite negative so its not like they dont know what is the most common opinion on the subject.

    I have read that people have brought up issues with programming but I have to ask: "and?". They could reschedule the game if it isnt up to what people expect of the series. Isnt animal crossing delayed? Isnt the new metroid game delayed? Hasnt it been part of the policy of Nintendo games to be quality products? Even the new Mario Maker game received less negative feedback for their multiplayer decisions and the devs spoke about adding the multiplayer experience people asked for. If Game Freak leaves things as they are, then they have lost all my respect as developers.

    The context of how the information was delivered doesnt help their case at all. The fact that they didnt inform people about this front and center and just shrugged it off into a gameplay video as a bit of trivia is just not something I think deserves tolerance.
    Last edited by DaOldeWolf; 2019-06-17 at 10:27 PM.
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    Default Re: Pokémon Thread XXIX: Sword, Shield, and Spoilers

    Quote Originally Posted by tgva8889 View Post
    Based on what I've seen, I'm also lead to believe that because of Dynamax, there are twice as many moves in this game as they are in other games because every move has a Dynamax variant, each with its own giant animations which is probably a lot of animations. In addition, because this is the highest-power game console Pokemon games have been on, there's probably some efforts spent on improving all the models which takes up a lot of development time. This is on top of all the new content that is added, much of which we don't even know about. It's entirely possible too that this is just a completely new game engine that, for example, calculates stats completely differently than Gen 7 which means direct transfer maybe has enough more hurdles to go through that they couldn't do it if there wasn't time to make a direct translation. I don't know how reasonable it is to patch all of these things in, and who knows maybe they'll make it, but if it is just for balance reasons then maybe it'll be interesting to try. As someone who doesn't care that much about competitive Pokemon these days it doesn't matter much to me anyways.
    From the information we've had so far,
    Spoiler: Dynamax Mechanics
    Show
    Dynamax does not appear to be doubling the amount of moves in the game. Damaging attacks are being translated to a specific Max Move based on their type, and then status moves are being translated to a different move. It is much like how Z-Moves didn't double the generation's movepool, but are influenced by the move used to determine the Z-Move- I won't be surprised if a few attacks create "signature" Max moves, etiher. And now that I think about it, any chance Max Malicious Moonsault from Smash was trying to foreshadow max moves?

    I think it is safe to assume that Max Moves are not creating new animations on a per-pokemon basis. On the Dynamax reveal, Gyarados used the same animation it used for Dragon Dance in order to perform Max Geyser. The only "new" model was the water geyser beam, the pokemon using it and its target had no observable new information. There might be new unique moves for certain moves and pokemon combinations, but we just haven't seen them yet.


    I'm also feeling pretty confident in that it's fair to assume that the engine is not completely different than Gen 7 making direct transfer have too many hurdles to jump through. My reasoning for this is that they're allowing Gen 7 pokemon to be imported, just not all of them.

    It might also be worth noting that there have been no major changes in the 3D graphical animation and programming environment that have warranted any major changes in programming languages or formats. Autodesk is still the giant in that playground, and it has been since roughly when the millennium started. There are a few other companies to look at if you involve sculpting, but those pipelines usually end up exporting to an Autodesk program regardless for optimization. And so help me, if anyone brings Blender into this... C++ is still the native language for the Switch, and Unity the go-to foot-in-the-door.

    I'm all for allowing Game Freaks the chance to demonstrate that they've made the right choice and show off what they can do, but... I want to see them demonstrate that they made the right choice and show off what they can do, first. Yes, they've shown off new things, and there's still a lot of new things left for them to show off, maybe they can still blow me away regardless. We've got a taste of something, but I don't know if I'm tasting solent green or steamed hams, and they're not letting anyone in the kitchen. Admittedly, that's kinda what we deserved, a whole bunch of people felt spoiled by all the information about Sun and Moon before it came out, I'll own up to that, they are at least seemingly addressing that complaint.

    While I'm being honest, I would have absolutely no problem if the excluded pokemon list consists solely of Zubat, Golbat, and Crobat.

    Quote Originally Posted by deuterio12 View Post
    But let's do this the other way.

    Name ten games made by companies of the same size or smaller than gamefreak that ported 800+monsters from their previous entries in one year or less.

    No bugs. No delays. Not a monster left behind. If it's that easy, then you should have no trouble finding plenty of examples.
    That sword cuts both ways, no pun intended. Since you're certainly confident about your own stance, you certainly won't have any trouble finding official statements from a hundred other companies of the same size or smaller than gamefreak who announced they couldn't port 800+ monsters from their previous entries in one year or less. I mean, I've already provided a photo and video to back my stance up, feel free to ante up.

    And there certainly are bugs in pokemon games! Why do you want a pokemon game without bugs? What do you have against Masquerain?

    In the meanwhile, I, Oracle of Wuffing, founder of GeneriCo, imported a thousand monsters from my previous game into my new game in one month.
    I, Oracle of Wuffing, founder of ThisReallyExistsCo, imported nine hundred and one monsters from my previous game into my new game in half a year.
    I, Oracle of Wuffing, founder of IsThePointClearYetCo, imported one thousand, three hundred, thirty-six monsters from my previous game into my new game in forty-two days...

    Quote Originally Posted by tgva8889 View Post
    Even giants like Nintendo have development issues. Fire Emblem was supposed to come out a year ago and the new Metroid game got scrapped and restarted. Deadlines and goals have to be met, and sometimes that means resources that could be spent on some things are instead spent on other things.
    I really hate to say this next thought: It was OK delaying Animal Crossing. Pokemon, on the other hand, apparently deserves no such treatment. It hurts me, like on the inside, every time I come back to that.

    (Great, and DaOldeWolf beats me to saying that before I finish posting. Rats.)

    Something that's been going around my head for a while, a bit of an out of context quote from Fraggle Rock: "Everything is important. Either that, or nothing is. I prefer the former." I know it's a very solid example of a false dichotomy, but I think that's a whole lot of "heart" of the notions wanting all available pokemon in Sword and Shield. It's about feelings, and it's about attributing importance to things that can be considered not.

    I feel- and I know Game Freaks is under no obligations to listen or cater to my feelings- that Masuda's stance of needing to do this "sooner or later" is a non-starter. In a game where you pick six things out of, let's say eight hundred for the sake of discussion, there just are going to be some things that aren't as good as other things. And as regrettable as it is, that's okay. That just comes with the nature of having eight hundred things.
    "Okay, so I'm going to quick draw and dual wield these one-pound caltrops as improvised weapons..."
    ---
    "Oh, hey, look! Blue Eyes Black Lotus!" "Wait what, do you sacrifice a mana to the... Does it like, summon a... What would that card even do!?" "Oh, it's got a four-energy attack. Completely unviable in actual play, so don't worry about it."

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    Default Re: Pokémon Thread XXIX: Sword, Shield, and Spoilers

    Game Freak confirms that updating pokemon graphics is not that easy.

    Also leave open the possibility of adding the missing pokemon later through updates.
    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Of Mantas View Post
    "You know, Durkon, I built this planet up from nothing. When I started here, all there was was a snarl. All the other gods said we were daft to build a planet over a snarl, but I built it all the same, just to show then. It got eaten by the snarl...

    ...so we built a five millionth, three hundreth, twenty first one. That one burned down, fell over, then got eaten by the snarl, but the five millionth, three hundreth, and twenty second one stayed up! Or at least, it has been until now."

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