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  1. - Top - End - #541
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    Default Re: Pokémon Thread XXIX: Sword, Shield, and Spoilers

    Quote Originally Posted by Razade View Post
    You're right. They made new models from scratch. Because...they'd be new. They made old pokemon from scratch for the new system. Considering your video however, he's remarking on some...reddit post. I linked to a Polygon article that linked directly to Famitsu and the article in question that both Polygon and Reddit were referencing.

    Your video says that the interview never metioned rebuilding things form scratch. Except it did. The redditor said it was from Matsuda, it wasn't. It was Omori who said it. It is sadly passed through Google to translate...but the question was asked about cutting the number down. Matsuda said this.



    The interviewer than followed up with this



    Bold for emphasis.

    The models had to be rebuilt from scratch. The interview doesn't say why, but we do know the frame rate between the 3DS and the Switch are different, one would be reasonable in thinking that might be a part of it. Who knows what else.

    Regardless. Your video is wrong. The guy said there's no credible source...but there is. The interview he even discussed.
    Which was mistranslated. the video specifically called out that translation being wrong because of its broken english. your living in fairy tale land.
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    Default Re: Pokémon Thread XXIX: Sword, Shield, and Spoilers

    Quote Originally Posted by Razade View Post
    The models had to be rebuilt from scratch. The interview doesn't say why, but we do know the frame rate between the 3DS and the Switch are different, one would be reasonable in thinking that might be a part of it. Who knows what else.

    Regardless. Your video is wrong. The guy said there's no credible source...but there is. The interview he even discussed.
    Well, of course anything said by the official people developing pokémon is not a credible source, while a short video from some random dude in youtube that never made a game let alone one of the greatest franchises ever and kept it going for over a decade is totally a 9000% credible source, don't forget to like and subscribe!
    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Of Mantas View Post
    "You know, Durkon, I built this planet up from nothing. When I started here, all there was was a snarl. All the other gods said we were daft to build a planet over a snarl, but I built it all the same, just to show then. It got eaten by the snarl...

    ...so we built a five millionth, three hundreth, twenty first one. That one burned down, fell over, then got eaten by the snarl, but the five millionth, three hundreth, and twenty second one stayed up! Or at least, it has been until now."

  3. - Top - End - #543
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    Default Re: Pokémon Thread XXIX: Sword, Shield, and Spoilers

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Raziere View Post
    Which was mistranslated. the video specifically called out that translation being wrong because of its broken english. your living in fairy tale land.
    How is it wrongly translated exactly? Like, can you back that up? The video asserted it but they didn't demonstrate that. I freely said that it was my Google Chrome that translated the page. Not someone else. You're going to get broken English when you're using a translation tool piggybacked on your browser. I didn't get it from reddit.

    Even then. I found an actual translation. Here's the relevant part again. With the editor (who translated it after this accusation was lobbied)

    Famitsu: That is true. If you consider the quality of the graphics in Pokémon Sword/Shield, it must take a considerable amount of time to create all the Pokémon.

    Masuda: Yes, this was a sad decision for us as well. If it was possible for us, we would have liked to have brought along all the Pokémon, but this is a decision that had to be made someday. In the end, we had to pick quality (over quantity).

    Oomori: This decision came about after considerable consultation with Masuda. Even during the development of Pokémon Sun/Moon, it was extremely difficult for us (to bring along all previous Pokémon); with the move to new hardware, it became necessary to recreate models from scratch (TL note: he does specifically say "models"). I hope that players who play Pokémon Sword/Shield will understand (even with the restriction on Pokémon that can be brought in), the experience has been greatly improved thanks to elements such as the wild area and story.
    So there, again, is a translator saying they're specifically talking about having to have made the models from scratch. If I'm living in fairy tale land, at least it's a fairy tale land with the facts.

  4. - Top - End - #544
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    Default Re: Pokémon Thread XXIX: Sword, Shield, and Spoilers

    Nope, that was mistranslated, Oomori didn't say that, he said something completely different, that was about hardware changing what they have to do about the Galar region itself and having a choice and changing the selection of the pokemon because of their choices, not because they had no choice, and the models aren't remade from scratch at all, a switch vaporeon wasn't different at all from a 3ds vaporeon, aside from a few polygons and you don't get that similar in a from-scratch build. I'm not going to believe some article churned out to make a sensationalist story and mistranslated over some who actually cares about the topic and actually did the fact-checking.
    Last edited by Lord Raziere; 2019-07-15 at 03:50 AM.
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  5. - Top - End - #545
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    Default Re: Pokémon Thread XXIX: Sword, Shield, and Spoilers

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Raziere View Post
    Nope, that was mistranslated,
    Again. You need to back that up. Like, I don't think this is going to convince you but shouting "that was mistranslated" when you don't know where I got the translation, the second one, which is not the same as the first...ya. You actually need to provide evidence to the contrary. You're making a claim, you're not taking the null position. Your video didn't provide a translation. Just said "NU UUH" and didn't dispute what Omori said. He just linked to a video talking about the models brought over from the 3DS...and then handwaved away the new textures and renders and talked about how you could use them anyway. Except for the whole "frame rate is different so not everything transferred over" thing.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Raziere View Post
    Oomori didn't say that, he said something completely different, that was about hardware changing what they have to do about the Galar region itself and having a choice and changing the selection of the pokemon because of their choices, not because they had no choice, and the models aren't remade from scratch at all, a switch vaporeon wasn't different at all from a 3ds vaporeon, aside from a few polygons and you don't get that similar in a from-scratch build. I'm not going to believe some article churned out to make a sensationalist story and mistranslated over some who actually cares about the topic and actually did the fact-checking.
    Considering the translator specifically mentioned they mentioned models...I don't believe you. I've provided two translations, from two different sources, that corrospond to one another. Which...seems to point that they're not mistranslated. You're pointing to the video where...they don't actually provide the correct translation and you're also not providing the correct translation. The video is also quoting Masuda, not Omori.

    The video literally says "they never mention from scratch". Except they do. In at least two different translations. I'm not going to go searching for more, and I'm not going to bother the people I know who do speak Japanese to look it over and tell me if the translation is accurate.


    So. Other than a youtube video that doesn't at all address the relevant area that I have given you. Twice. Do you have evidence that actually demonstrates them being mistranslated? Other than a bald assertion? Like. Do you have the correct translation? If you do, and can demonstrate that it's any more or less official than the ones I've provided...one literally being from Famitsu itself...I'll change my tune. Otherwise, my side of the line has the facts. Your side has a bunch of angry Z-list celebrities trying to use 3rd party rendering programs and fallacy after fallacy.

    And that's really all I have to say on the matter. Provide the accurate, official translation...or I'm going to just dismiss your claim it's a mistanslation. You actually have to provide evidence, not just assert it. Especially since...ya know...I've at least been honest saying

    1. The first translation is thanks to Google Chrome and is obviously going to have some errors.
    2. The second translation (which is a different translation from a different source and is not at all discussed in the video) is an actual translations without the bad English garbledness, and is just as possible they made a mistake.
    3. It's unlikely they made the same mistake.
    4. No one has produced a "correct" translation as far as I can find and when I do find other translations...they sync up with the two I provided.
    Last edited by Razade; 2019-07-15 at 04:14 AM.

  6. - Top - End - #546
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    Default Re: Pokémon Thread XXIX: Sword, Shield, and Spoilers

    funny I'm stating nothing but facts too.

    the other translation is right there in that video, you may have the time to try and spend and silence someone who is just providing criticism which can only be good for the franchise of pokemon for no reason because your afraid of my criticism somehow being bad, but I have stated the facts and provided the evidence, and if all your going to do is say someone who provided good reason what that translation wasn't done well was going "Nu Uh" then your just trying to make anyone who doesn't agree with your position look bad. you have yet to provide a response that isn't shoving the wrong translation back in my face and claiming its the correct one because you think it is. when it clearly isn't.

    the pokemon models and animations are all clearly the same and ripped straight from 3ds. you don't get that exact without copy-paste, there is no hardware or time limitation that actually was imposed on them that they couldn't have fixed, they just chose not to fix it, because they so afraid of pokemon masters stealing the pokemon thunder from them that they are wasting their time putting their A-Team on TOWN while their B-Team fumbles Sword and Shield, rather making a quality product. I'm never going to settle for less, you can't make me.
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  7. - Top - End - #547
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    Default Re: Pokémon Thread XXIX: Sword, Shield, and Spoilers

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Raziere View Post
    I'm never going to settle for less, you can't make me.
    We don't need to, you're already settling for translations from random dudes in youtube that are of such poor quality they can't even get the correct name of the people who said the original text.

    We're the ones who will not settle for such "facts" or "evidence" such as "random angry dude on youtube said something to get some easy likes and didn't bother to check a single fact nor get any actual evidence".

    So you can enjoy your lesser translation, and we'll be enjoying the new pokémon entry, and there's absolutely nothing you can do to stop us.
    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Of Mantas View Post
    "You know, Durkon, I built this planet up from nothing. When I started here, all there was was a snarl. All the other gods said we were daft to build a planet over a snarl, but I built it all the same, just to show then. It got eaten by the snarl...

    ...so we built a five millionth, three hundreth, twenty first one. That one burned down, fell over, then got eaten by the snarl, but the five millionth, three hundreth, and twenty second one stayed up! Or at least, it has been until now."

  8. - Top - End - #548
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    Default Re: Pokémon Thread XXIX: Sword, Shield, and Spoilers

    I have to say, speaking as a professional CAD modeller (albiet for a slightly different disicpline than graphics), if the 3DS and Switch simply use a different sort of file format for their graphics (entirely possible, though I'm not a graphics person), you may very well not be able to cut-and-paste. It's not like doing that with text or images. I have to translate my TCAD files to .stl to be able to print them... And while Rhino, on Dad's computer, can read and edit .stl files, TurboCAD can only export or import them. When I wanted to modify a model he'd modified on Rhino in TurboCAD, I had to import the .stl and then re-make the model using that as a guide. Sure, it was quicker than from scratch but it was not without time-consumption. Same as when I imported some .dxfs from X-Wing Alliance because I wanted to make some Imperial fighters and stuff for my SW game1 - I basically had to re-make the model, using the imported dxf as basically drawing guidelines.

    So, I wouldn't find it that hard to believe that it was the case that they had to re-make the models.

    (Also, this could be the case either/or for the actual textures on said model, and a different texturing software between hardware changes seems quite possible. Though texturing is not an area I have any familiarity with.)



    But with that said, with the sort of money Pokémon makes, I also am inclined to say they can afford to make the effort in both time and money to do it.



    1I feel obliged to point out that I only did those for myself, and such things like that would never get with horizon distance of Aotrs Shipyards proper.
    Last edited by Aotrs Commander; 2019-07-15 at 06:40 AM.

  9. - Top - End - #549
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    Default Re: Pokémon Thread XXIX: Sword, Shield, and Spoilers

    Quote Originally Posted by Aotrs Commander View Post
    I have to say, speaking as a professional CAD modeller (albiet for a slightly different disicpline than graphics), if the 3DS and Switch simply use a different sort of file format for their graphics (entirely possible, though I'm not a graphics person), you may very well not be able to cut-and-paste. It's not like doing that with text or images. I have to translate my TCAD files to .stl to be able to print them... And while Rhino, on Dad's computer, can read and edit .stl files, TurboCAD can only export or import them. When I wanted to modify a model he'd modified on Rhino in TurboCAD, I had to import the .stl and then re-make the model using that as a guide. Sure, it was quicker than from scratch but it was not without time-consumption. Same as when I imported some .dxfs from X-Wing Alliance because I wanted to make some Imperial fighters and stuff for my SW game1 - I basically had to re-make the model, using the imported dxf as basically drawing guidelines.

    So, I wouldn't find it that hard to believe that it was the case that they had to re-make the models.
    Thank you for some actual sane technical advice confirming that the world of software isn't a magic land where everything is super easy and compatible by default. Many times indeed one has to remake things from scratch while seeking to keep as close to the previous version as possible.


    Quote Originally Posted by Aotrs Commander View Post
    (Also, this could be the case either/or for the actual textures on said model, and a different texturing software between hardware changes seems quite possible. Though texturing is not an area I have any familiarity with.)


    But with that said, with the sort of money Pokémon makes, I also am inclined to say they can afford to make the effort in both time and money to do it.
    Precisely because of the sort money pokémon makes they don't have the time, the anime and TCG companies are breathing down Game Freak's necks to keep the deadlines. Delays are not an option for a franchise of this scale.
    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Of Mantas View Post
    "You know, Durkon, I built this planet up from nothing. When I started here, all there was was a snarl. All the other gods said we were daft to build a planet over a snarl, but I built it all the same, just to show then. It got eaten by the snarl...

    ...so we built a five millionth, three hundreth, twenty first one. That one burned down, fell over, then got eaten by the snarl, but the five millionth, three hundreth, and twenty second one stayed up! Or at least, it has been until now."

  10. - Top - End - #550
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    Default Re: Pokémon Thread XXIX: Sword, Shield, and Spoilers

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Raziere View Post
    funny I'm stating nothing but facts too.
    The difference is I'm posting actual statements from legitimate sources and you (and others) are posting...youtube videos that don't actually post any evidence.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Raziere View Post
    the other translation is right there in that video
    No it isn't. Unless you mean the dude's own translation. If you mean that...that your youtuber translated the article...with Yandex. This site.

    That's...just as bad as Google's native translator. Worse...even. This is what it gets you.

    Omori: we had a lot of discussions with Masuda about this.Even at the time of the Pokémon San moon, it was quite a tough situation (to be able to bring all the Pokémon together), but the hard turns into a Nintendo Switch, and we had to make some choices from scratch. However, I think that it can be understood if you can play"Pocket Monster Sword Shield" (even if there is a limit to the Pokemon that can be brought) wild area and story, such as the contents of the play becomes a considerable volume.
    Which...syncs up somewhat with the other two translations I posted. It ALSO uses "From Scratch". So...what now? I used the translate tool that your video provided to get more or less the same thing I've posted twice now. So that's three separate translations that concur on my point and none that do with yours. One of which, I have to repeat, is from the dude who is saying the article never said what...his own translation tool is saying.

    An absolute farce, if you ask me. Here's the Famitsu article, just in case you think I'm lying about how it translated out. You can do it yourself and see that I did not, in fact, do that. Linky

    If you mean that he's referencing the translation I gave you...he doesn't. That would be found here. The translation I found is here.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Raziere View Post
    you may have the time to try and spend and silence someone who is just providing criticism which can only be good for the franchise of pokemon for no reason because your afraid of my criticism somehow being bad, but I have stated the facts and provided the evidence, and if all your going to do is say someone who provided good reason what that translation wasn't done well was going "Nu Uh" then your just trying to make anyone who doesn't agree with your position look bad. you have yet to provide a response that isn't shoving the wrong translation back in my face and claiming its the correct one because you think it is. when it clearly isn't.
    1. No one is trying to silence you. Disagreeing with you, and posting reasons why they disagree with you, is not silencing you. At no point have I told you to stop posting or to stop posting about this topic.

    2. You're free to offer criticism. I am, likewise, free to criticism your criticism. Mostly for being free of facts, merely assertions that you likewise assert as facts.

    3. I've now posted four translations. One of which is from your own guy. All of them more or less say the same thing. Further cementing "it's mistranslated!" as...unlikely.

    Conclusion: One last time here. Provide me a proper translation. Not one from some Z-List Youtuber using a web program because if it's not good enough for you, it's not good enough for me. Not some redditor whose translated it on their free time because if it's not good enough for you, it's not good enough for me. Anything pointing out why any of the translations I provided is wrong will work too. I'll take either. I don't want you to straw man me, I don't want you to guess at my motives. I don't want you to just assert without evidence that it's a mistranslation or that you've got the right one without any evidence. I want hard, verifiable, facts that I can investigate with a clear trail owning up to their credentials. You don't need extensive links. One will do me just fine. One. I am ready to be convinced. Please demonstrate how the translations I provided are, in fact, wrong or provide a translation that I can verify is, in fact, superior.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Raziere View Post
    the pokemon models and animations are all clearly the same and ripped straight from 3ds. you don't get that exact without copy-paste, there is no hardware or time limitation that actually was imposed on them that they couldn't have fixed, they just chose not to fix it, because they so afraid of pokemon masters stealing the pokemon thunder from them that they are wasting their time putting their A-Team on TOWN while their B-Team fumbles Sword and Shield, rather making a quality product.
    By people who don't work for Gamefreak or the Pokemon Company and have no idea what the internal workload was like. It's more than just rendering a model in Maya and screeching that they're the same. That's not compelling.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Raziere View Post
    I'm never going to settle for less, you can't make me.
    I can't and I'm not asking you to. I am however freely and eagerly refuting your assertions. I have absolutely no illusion that it will change your mind in any way. None. You have made your mind up and it seems fairly final. But this isn't about you. It's about the people reading along. I'm not looking to sell copies of the game for Gamefreak, they're not paying me so why should I work for free for them. But what I am eager and interested in doing is combating what I see as a fairly toxic reaction to a game company doing something that a rather vocal group of fans are getting angry over. What's more, I'm eager to actually demonstrate why the furor is just that. A portion of fans, angry, over-reacting and making a community and game series I love look like an utter dumpster fire.

    I am all in on making sure game companies are held to the straight and narrow, more than all in on tearing the ones down that abuse their player base like Bethesa or EA or Activision or any number of other smaller companies who have flooded my hobby with crap. But I want it done in a sensible, logical and above all, measured way. Not one of lynch mobs, twitter fads and vitriol. One with reason, evidence and above all, respect. Respect for one another and respect for the people making the games because it's a pay check for them. It's a way to keep food on the table. They're humans too and the reaction over...what...three demo videos thus far? Frankly embarrassing all around.
    Last edited by Razade; 2019-07-15 at 08:02 AM.

  11. - Top - End - #551
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    Default Re: Pokémon Thread XXIX: Sword, Shield, and Spoilers

    Well sorry, while there is unreasonable parts to the fandom, I don't feel as if the national dex backlash is unjustified. there are certain things that you just don't accept, no matter the circumstance, and until they bring all the pokemon and I mean ALL of them, not just my favorites, and I cannot accept sword and shield, or the national dex being taken out.

    I'm not going to make nice for the sake of making nice. thats fake. I can't do that fakeness. you want to talk to me about it, your going to get me not being happy about it and not caring what Game Freak says, because to me its far more believable that yet another gaming company is screwing us over after betheseda, activision-blizzard and EA all doing the same in various ways, than defenders trying to convince me that somehow pokemon can't be better and I should just accept the decay as the new normal.

    like Zekrom and Reshiram, we both have our ideals and our truths, and maybe they are not evenly distributed, and I can't tell which is which. and if I happen to be on side of the ideal and not the truth, I don't know if I am I can never be truly sure, so be it, that ideal is more important to me than accepting what I'm being given, because what I'm given is horrible to me, especially when so much else does things so much better and pokemon has so much potential that it could live up to but never does.
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    Default Re: Pokémon Thread XXIX: Sword, Shield, and Spoilers

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Raziere View Post
    Well sorry, while there is unreasonable parts to the fandom, I don't feel as if the national dex backlash is unjustified. there are certain things that you just don't accept, no matter the circumstance, and until they bring all the pokemon and I mean ALL of them, not just my favorites, and I cannot accept sword and shield, or the national dex being taken out.
    Cool. No one asked you to forgive them, forget this, or buy Sword and Shield. The best way to show disagreement with the change is to not buy Sword and Shield.

    I am in the record as saying their reasoning is valid and that I'm curious what they're doing with the opportunities this opens up. I'm probably also not going to purchase the game.

    We're just asking you to accept that the reasoning is a valid one. Updating everything for the first time on the Switch is a time crunch, and they had a limited time frame and budget. They decided their priorities, and the national dex was not at the top of the list.

    You strongly disagree with those priorities. Many other people do, as well. That's valid, and Sword and Shield 2 will probably have the full dex as a result.

    We're just asking you to acknowledge that this was a reasoned decision; and that it wasn't made solely from greed or a desire to sleight their customer base. Was it the wrong decision? You say absolutely; I say time will tell. I know game designers; I can tell you many people working on the project are as or even more disappointed than you.

    Either way, calling their statements blatant lies does not increase your credibility or decrease theirs, or change anything.

    Don't forgive; don't forget; but don't propagate blatant lies out of spite, either.
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    Default Re: Pokémon Thread XXIX: Sword, Shield, and Spoilers

    I'm not really getting that what they're trying to say is so much "don't have time to do this right now" as much as "have reached a point of maintenance bloat where this has been getting gradually less sustainable for a while, and is now at a point where it's time to admit it and try a different approach."

    Rambling story time: I volunteer with a local SF convention. We've been having this event for over 40 years now. Over that time, we have built up a LOT of expectations from people as to which things are "traditions" and have to be done every year, to the point where it's completely overwhelming to try to put this convention on. If we didn't occasionally cut a "tradition" here or there, the entire thing would crumble under its own weight and newer volunteers would burn out fast because they never really got to add anything meaningful because there are too many things going on already.

    Every time we switch hotels, we tend to use that as a chance to look at which things still make sense and which should be changed. Sometimes it's obvious, like a certain room only being used a certain way due to space constraints that no longer apply, or a different hotel policy on something changing some part of the con for better or worse. Sometimes, it's just a case of having fewer programming spaces and having to trim programming to match, or more smaller spaces leading to many more smaller, more-focused panels. Sometimes it's a different alcohol policy that lets us host a different kind of evening event schedule than we could before, or security issues that mean things end up in funny spots. And sometimes, it's a chance to try something different because the old thing was not actually getting much use and was taking up a lot of time and effort to run. Things that "grow a bit each year" without a mechanism for pruning get particularly difficult to maintain with enough years of cruft added on. Having each year have, say, a banner that gets displayed at all subsequent cons is really cool for 5 years/banners and exhausting by year 40. It's not that 39 was fine and 40 is too many, it's that this is not going to get any less exhausting, most people do not actually stop and appreciate all 40 banners, it takes multiple people several hours to set it up, it's taking up a ton of space in storage, and at some point you just have to decide we're not doing the banner thing any more. (My con did not specifically do year banners, but it's the kind of trap cons get into.)

    They're at about 1000 Pokemon now. If they want to actively maintain all of them in each game, that's a substantial commitment of time and energy to have people paying attention to how each new idea they want to introduce interacts with all of the accumulated previous ideas, and gets harder and harder to let the current staff actually have ideas and do something new rather than just maintain the old. Deciding to go to a current/inactive format reminds me of the way a lot of CCGs are run, and for similar reasons. It's less about them having to do it right now, and more that this is the time that they've decided to do this thing that needed to be done sooner or later if they wanted to focus on making games that felt like distinct games with unique Pokemon and mechanics rather than essentially remixes of the existing games.

    Whether or not I like this move is a different thing. I don't. I hate change, and would rather they just ported all existing Pokemon games over to the Switch so I could play them all in order, on one system, gradually traveling through all of the regions and accumulating a giant pile of Pokemon. I would like multiple save files and easy trading between those games so I could basically just keep playing those games by myself in my own sandbox, and really am not particularly interested in any new mechanics. (I'd enjoy some sort of user-created-region program where I could play through additional fan-made old-style Pokemon games with different gym leaders and maps, too.) However, I also stopped buying Pokemon games when they went 3D because I hated that change too, so I am probably not their core audience at this point.

    Also, King's Quest should have kept the text parser from the first four games and not gone to a point-and-click pixel hunt for game 5.

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    Default Re: Pokémon Thread XXIX: Sword, Shield, and Spoilers

    Quote Originally Posted by Fable Wright View Post
    Don't forgive; don't forget; but don't propagate blatant lies out of spite, either.
    I never have propagated lies. your asking me to give your side credit without you giving my side any credit. thats a non-starter. I can't deny any of evidence I saw with my own eyes as untrue, that would be the real lie. while they haven't communicated any plans to fix this in any games and have in fact their response to the controversy was basically go "okay" and not do anything.

    the idea that they will make a SwSh2 that will fix this is wishful thinking, there is no evidence for it, unless they're planning it as apart of one of "make it a surprise" attitude of game design that is to the series detriment. I fully believe that after 20 years, that kind of hoping while Game Freak pulls out whatever random gimmick out of nowhere to go "surprise!" won't work for anyone anymore, we need to communicate that they need to start having set standards to refine and improve upon rather than constant surprising change that takes away as much as it improves.

    and we all know what their response was to people wanting the Battle Frontier back in ORAS. that doesn't fill me with confidence. even if I'm not angry or vitriolic, I have to caution you all from trusting them too much. they have not shown a good record of actually improving their games.
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    Spoiler: 7 Reasons why Pokémon Sword version is unquestionably superior to Pokémon Shield
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Of Mantas View Post
    "You know, Durkon, I built this planet up from nothing. When I started here, all there was was a snarl. All the other gods said we were daft to build a planet over a snarl, but I built it all the same, just to show then. It got eaten by the snarl...

    ...so we built a five millionth, three hundreth, twenty first one. That one burned down, fell over, then got eaten by the snarl, but the five millionth, three hundreth, and twenty second one stayed up! Or at least, it has been until now."

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Raziere View Post
    I never have propagated lies.
    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Raziere View Post
    Which was mistranslated. the video specifically called out that translation being wrong because of its broken english. your living in fairy tale land.
    The fact that Japanese uses loanwords as much or more than English does not make it broken English. That you repeatedly claim that professional translations are less reliable than an unverified Youtube video's baseless claim is propagating the lie in the video.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Raziere View Post
    the idea that they will make a SwSh2 that will fix this is wishful thinking
    That they will make a SwSh2 is basically inevitable. See also Yellow, Crystal, Emerald, Platinum, BW2, USUM.

    That they will reimplement the national dex is speculation based on no evidence save the backlash. I feel it likely that the Pokemon Company will lean into Game Freak to reimplement the national dex, and they will have another year to work on the translation—while otherwise making mostly minor changes. I feel this increases the odds of it happening.

    Is it a guarantee? Nope; if GameFreak takes a hardline stance, it's not happening. But I think that there's going to be a lot more pressure on GameFreak about this than there will be about Battle Frontier.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fable Wright View Post
    The fact that Japanese uses loanwords as much or more than English does not make it broken English. That you repeatedly claim that professional translations are less reliable than an unverified Youtube video's baseless claim is propagating the lie in the video.
    No, you see, the unverified baseless youtube video is the one real truth in the universe, everything else in existence is actually an illusion, an ephemeral dream, a fake.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fable Wright View Post
    That they will make a SwSh2 is basically inevitable. See also Yellow, Crystal, Emerald, Platinum, BW2, USUM.
    All part of the ephemereal dream. There's no Game Freaks, no Red/Blue/Yellow or any pokémon games for the matter, they're all fake illusions that never existed, only the unverified baseless youtube video is true.


    Quote Originally Posted by Fable Wright View Post
    Is it a guarantee? Nope; if GameFreak takes a hardline stance, it's not happening. But I think that there's going to be a lot more pressure on GameFreak about this than there will be about Battle Frontier.
    It depends entirely on how good pokémon Sword and Shield actually ends up being. If it's fun and sells well, they'll have no pressure to go back to the ancient obsolete ways.
    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Of Mantas View Post
    "You know, Durkon, I built this planet up from nothing. When I started here, all there was was a snarl. All the other gods said we were daft to build a planet over a snarl, but I built it all the same, just to show then. It got eaten by the snarl...

    ...so we built a five millionth, three hundreth, twenty first one. That one burned down, fell over, then got eaten by the snarl, but the five millionth, three hundreth, and twenty second one stayed up! Or at least, it has been until now."

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    Eh, I feel if I just comment on this bit, people can probably figure out what else I would say to everything else.
    Quote Originally Posted by Aotrs Commander View Post
    I have to say, speaking as a professional CAD modeller (albiet for a slightly different disicpline than graphics), if the 3DS and Switch simply use a different sort of file format for their graphics (entirely possible, though I'm not a graphics person), you may very well not be able to cut-and-paste. It's not like doing that with text or images. I have to translate my TCAD files to .stl to be able to print them... And while Rhino, on Dad's computer, can read and edit .stl files, TurboCAD can only export or import them. When I wanted to modify a model he'd modified on Rhino in TurboCAD, I had to import the .stl and then re-make the model using that as a guide. Sure, it was quicker than from scratch but it was not without time-consumption. Same as when I imported some .dxfs from X-Wing Alliance because I wanted to make some Imperial fighters and stuff for my SW game1 - I basically had to re-make the model, using the imported dxf as basically drawing guidelines.
    The models used in Pokemon Let's Go are stored in BFRES files. That's sort of a Nintendo proprietary file format, however, it's not a Switch-only file format, as it was used for both the WiiU and 3DS- including X, Y, Sun, Moon, Ultra Sun, and Ultra Moon. That format can have the texture information embedded into it, and/or it can be stored as a BNTX file, which is in the same boat. The only difference I can find is that the WiiU was a Big-Endian processor, but the 3DS and Switch were Little-Endian, so that change does not apply to what the internet views as mainline Pokemon titles. They use the same file format. For that matter, converting between little and big endian is an entry-level computer science assignment. No, literally. I was assigned to do that in Computer Science 101, like, right after hand-converting numbers between decimal, hexadecimal, and binary.

    For the, er, education of the rest of the people that are interested in me giving a citation on the BFRES file format and it's usage... Sorry. Linking to material about decompiling a copyrighted work that is distributed for profit and decoding a proprietary file format is kinda close enough to Criminal Activity that I don't feel is appropriate for this forum. You'll either have to take me at my word, say "Nu-uh I don't believe you and I don't need to give a reason," or disagree and give a citation as to Pokemon games not using the BFRES file format. People are free to take that second option, it's a free world, but please understand if I just interpret that as dismissive for the sake of being dismissive.

    And, well, besides that, Nintendo's pretty open to their devs about their Unity support, so the Switch (and 3DS) can also handle reasonably-sized fbx, dae, 3ds*, dxf, obj, and skp files. I'm certain Aotrs Commander can confirm that's a reasonably wide repertoire, but for those not well-versed in 3D Model formats, the "important" ones are obj (Wavefront) and dae (Collada), because they're gonna be the closest thing 3D Models have to common ground to everything. And for the sake of pulling things around full-circle, yes, people have written scripts to convert obj and dae files to BFRES files, yes, Master Chief and Shaggy have been inserted to Smash Ultimate because of that.

    *Not to be confused with Nintendo's 3ds, this is a 3D Studio file.
    "Okay, so I'm going to quick draw and dual wield these one-pound caltrops as improvised weapons..."
    ---
    "Oh, hey, look! Blue Eyes Black Lotus!" "Wait what, do you sacrifice a mana to the... Does it like, summon a... What would that card even do!?" "Oh, it's got a four-energy attack. Completely unviable in actual play, so don't worry about it."

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    Default Re: Pokémon Thread XXIX: Sword, Shield, and Spoilers

    Quote Originally Posted by OracleofWuffing View Post
    Eh, I feel if I just comment on this bit, people can probably figure out what else I would say to everything else.

    The models used in Pokemon Let's Go are stored in BFRES files. That's sort of a Nintendo proprietary file format, however, it's not a Switch-only file format, as it was used for both the WiiU and 3DS- including X, Y, Sun, Moon, Ultra Sun, and Ultra Moon. That format can have the texture information embedded into it, and/or it can be stored as a BNTX file, which is in the same boat. The only difference I can find is that the WiiU was a Big-Endian processor, but the 3DS and Switch were Little-Endian, so that change does not apply to what the internet views as mainline Pokemon titles. They use the same file format. For that matter, converting between little and big endian is an entry-level computer science assignment. No, literally. I was assigned to do that in Computer Science 101, like, right after hand-converting numbers between decimal, hexadecimal, and binary.
    Which suggests they could potentially re-use the assets from the old titles fairly easily then?

    Quote Originally Posted by OracleofWuffing
    And, well, besides that, Nintendo's pretty open to their devs about their Unity support, so the Switch (and 3DS) can also handle reasonably-sized fbx, dae, 3ds*, dxf, obj, and skp files. I'm certain Aotrs Commander can confirm that's a reasonably wide repertoire,
    *nods*

    I have even used dae myself on a couple of occasions when translations direct to .stl or through .dxf have not been possible or something borked.
    Last edited by Aotrs Commander; 2019-07-16 at 03:10 AM.

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    With the caveat that it's still just a suggestion, yes, it does. There's still a fair possibility that, yes, they did something that required them to chuck their entire existing material, concept art included, in the trash can. I mean, it has happened in history that video game companies have canceled or delayed projects because they lost the source code, it's not impossible. But, I think the thread already knows what I think of such possibilities.

    I think what's more relevant, however, is a little bit of nuance that has been lost over the pages of discussion. Yes, I can hear someone in the back row rolling their eyes at me trying to bring up stuff already known. While Masuda talked about animations and the battle system, the thrust of the statement is that he claims that there is a point where they couldn't support every pokemon. Perhaps I'm reading too far into this- I'll accept that criticism- but I don't see him stating that Sword and Shield are that point, just that Sword and Shield were a [good] point to accept what he believes as an inevitability. From what I interpret- and again, my interpretation is unreliable- there was nothing in the hardware or software holding them back at this point, the guy in charge just wanted to get this matter done with and decided to do so now instead of later. There may be reasons- dirty or clean- behind that decision, but at the end of the day, if Masuda says something, you need brass pokeballs and/or dang good reasons to disobey him if you're in his business.
    "Okay, so I'm going to quick draw and dual wield these one-pound caltrops as improvised weapons..."
    ---
    "Oh, hey, look! Blue Eyes Black Lotus!" "Wait what, do you sacrifice a mana to the... Does it like, summon a... What would that card even do!?" "Oh, it's got a four-energy attack. Completely unviable in actual play, so don't worry about it."

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    Quote Originally Posted by OracleofWuffing View Post
    With the caveat that it's still just a suggestion, yes, it does. There's still a fair possibility that, yes, they did something that required them to chuck their entire existing material, concept art included, in the trash can. I mean, it has happened in history that video game companies have canceled or delayed projects because they lost the source code, it's not impossible. But, I think the thread already knows what I think of such possibilities.

    I think what's more relevant, however, is a little bit of nuance that has been lost over the pages of discussion. Yes, I can hear someone in the back row rolling their eyes at me trying to bring up stuff already known. While Masuda talked about animations and the battle system, the thrust of the statement is that he claims that there is a point where they couldn't support every pokemon. Perhaps I'm reading too far into this- I'll accept that criticism- but I don't see him stating that Sword and Shield are that point, just that Sword and Shield were a [good] point to accept what he believes as an inevitability. From what I interpret- and again, my interpretation is unreliable- there was nothing in the hardware or software holding them back at this point, the guy in charge just wanted to get this matter done with and decided to do so now instead of later. There may be reasons- dirty or clean- behind that decision, but at the end of the day, if Masuda says something, you need brass pokeballs and/or dang good reasons to disobey him if you're in his business.
    That makes a certain amount of sense, like pulling off a bandaid. Do it now during a transition to a new system when everything is a little bit less concrete, rather than later on when they're more established on the system. Expectations aren't as high as they would be for a second or third game on the system, or their next console release after the switch. The sustainability of an increasing catalog of monsters is something they have been talking about since at least X&Y. In a sense we knew this was coming eventually.

    And yeah, gotta remember Japanese corporate culture here, even if Game Freak does have its one gaijin to lean on when it comes to questioning senior developers, what Masuda says has even more weight with his underlings compared to a western company, you simply do not argue with your Sempais/Senseis.

    I have to admit though, I'm really surprised to hear they're remaking their models from a certain amount of scratch. I've heard other people in the game animation industry talk about how making them 3D in the first place was in a way creating reusable assets for a good long while, not just two generations worth of games. Just look at the thumbnail for that "h i g h q u a l i t y a n i m a t i o n s" video, the Sw/Sh trainer has a noticeably better more detailed model, and probably more points of articulation (it looks like there could be in the hands anyway). I wouldn't be surprised if at least some of that is simply placeholder, what with the game still being 4-5 months out, presumably the engine is done and at this point they're polishing stuff and squashing bugs. (I know very little about 3d animation mind, so I can only speculate what the deal is).

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    Default Re: Pokémon Thread XXIX: Sword, Shield, and Spoilers

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Raziere View Post
    the pokemon models and animations are all clearly the same and ripped straight from 3ds. you don't get that exact without copy-paste, there is no hardware or time limitation that actually was imposed on them that they couldn't have fixed, they just chose not to fix it, because they so afraid of pokemon masters stealing the pokemon thunder from them that they are wasting their time putting their A-Team on TOWN while their B-Team fumbles Sword and Shield, rather making a quality product. I'm never going to settle for less, you can't make me.
    Funny how you say that, despite the lack of fingers in the 3DS version. The finger wiggling means that the animation is not an exact match, and thus would have to be rebuilt, model and all, since the 3DS equivalent would not have that.

    I've talked with animators. This sort of thing you're suggesting is not possible. You can't just upscale 3DS models to the Switch.
    Last edited by LaZodiac; 2019-07-16 at 09:50 AM.


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    Default Re: Pokémon Thread XXIX: Sword, Shield, and Spoilers

    Quote Originally Posted by cobaltstarfire View Post
    That makes a certain amount of sense, like pulling off a bandaid. Do it now during a transition to a new system when everything is a little bit less concrete, rather than later on when they're more established on the system. Expectations aren't as high as they would be for a second or third game on the system, or their next console release after the switch. The sustainability of an increasing catalog of monsters is something they have been talking about since at least X&Y. In a sense we knew this was coming eventually.
    I mean this as a goofy, light-hearted joke, not a serious statement. I mean this distinctly as a humorous speedbump and do not intend to defend the statement: Well, hold up there, Masuda also said that Let's Go were core pokemon games, so these actually are the second games on the system.

    In more "real" discussion, I find myself circling back to Pokemon Home again. I mean, if we were to grant the premise that keeping all their old pokemon is unsustainable (which is not something I personally grant, but I think the thread's had enough back and forth on that matter), then... why are they upgrading a service distinctly for keeping all your old pokemon- and across titles that aren't even theirs? I thought I was supposed to get hyped for Sword and Shield news, but now I'm just scrolling past it all just to see if they're gonna clarify what Home is gonna do with non-Galar species. I'm bracing for the reveal that you'll just be able to play more games of bonk-the-yarnball with whoever you want, but I'm hoping for something more tangible.
    "Okay, so I'm going to quick draw and dual wield these one-pound caltrops as improvised weapons..."
    ---
    "Oh, hey, look! Blue Eyes Black Lotus!" "Wait what, do you sacrifice a mana to the... Does it like, summon a... What would that card even do!?" "Oh, it's got a four-energy attack. Completely unviable in actual play, so don't worry about it."

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    Quote Originally Posted by OracleofWuffing View Post
    I mean this as a goofy, light-hearted joke, not a serious statement. I mean this distinctly as a humorous speedbump and do not intend to defend the statement: Well, hold up there, Masuda also said that Let's Go were core pokemon games, so these actually are the second games on the system.

    In more "real" discussion, I find myself circling back to Pokemon Home again. I mean, if we were to grant the premise that keeping all their old pokemon is unsustainable (which is not something I personally grant, but I think the thread's had enough back and forth on that matter), then... why are they upgrading a service distinctly for keeping all your old pokemon- and across titles that aren't even theirs? I thought I was supposed to get hyped for Sword and Shield news, but now I'm just scrolling past it all just to see if they're gonna clarify what Home is gonna do with non-Galar species. I'm bracing for the reveal that you'll just be able to play more games of bonk-the-yarnball with whoever you want, but I'm hoping for something more tangible.
    If the cost is in fact in game balancing (as we'd originally heard) rather than in modeling and animating (as current statements seem to indicate), that leads to the possibility that future games will include a different subset, and you'd be able to transfer things from Home to those later games.
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    Default Re: Pokémon Thread XXIX: Sword, Shield, and Spoilers

    Quote Originally Posted by OracleofWuffing View Post
    I mean this as a goofy, light-hearted joke, not a serious statement. I mean this distinctly as a humorous speedbump and do not intend to defend the statement: Well, hold up there, Masuda also said that Let's Go were core pokemon games, so these actually are the second games on the system.
    In before someone rants about 1st generation favoritism again, because they already made switch models for the original 151. Therefore Sw/Sh might have all of those ones. XD


    Are the switch models different from the 3DS ones? What about the humans? I skipped Let's Go, poked the demo and it seemed pretty shiny to me, if a bit cramped for roaming monsters.
    Last edited by cobaltstarfire; 2019-07-16 at 08:22 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by cobaltstarfire View Post
    In before someone rants about 1st generation favoritism again, because they already made switch models for the original 151. Therefore Sw/Sh might have all of those ones. XD


    Are the switch models different from the 3DS ones? What about the humans? I skipped Let's Go, poked the demo and it seemed pretty shiny to me, if a bit cramped for roaming monsters.
    With the exception of Meltan and Melmetal of course. I like Pokemon Let's Go Overused Format Games.

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    Quote Originally Posted by cobaltstarfire View Post
    Are the switch models different from the 3DS ones? What about the humans?
    As far as we've seen, the previous-gen Pokémon models on the Switch are the same as the ones used on the 3DS, just with a higher resolution display. They've claimed they had to redo them from scratch, but that seems to either be a gross exaggeration or WIP footage with less than half a year before release.

    The human characters are different so they have new models, but the animations in the footage so far seem to have sourced the animations from previous generations as well.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mando Knight View Post
    As far as we've seen, the previous-gen Pokémon models on the Switch are the same as the ones used on the 3DS, just with a higher resolution display. They've claimed they had to redo them from scratch, but that seems to either be a gross exaggeration or WIP footage with less than half a year before release.

    The human characters are different so they have new models, but the animations in the footage so far seem to have sourced the animations from previous generations as well.
    As pointed out, the new human models have actual independent fingers instead of just "paws". That's not something you can get from just resolution upscaling. Hand-paws will remain hand-paws with the fingers locked until you make a new model with proper separate fingers.

    Yes, some of the overall body movements look similar, but that's because they're supposed to represent human beings and human beings are supposed to have limited skeletons and thus a limited range of movements. There's only so many variety you can fit in, say, walking before things start looking weird.

    Meanwhile we also have new animations like Bea with her martial art poses which weren't in any previous games.
    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Of Mantas View Post
    "You know, Durkon, I built this planet up from nothing. When I started here, all there was was a snarl. All the other gods said we were daft to build a planet over a snarl, but I built it all the same, just to show then. It got eaten by the snarl...

    ...so we built a five millionth, three hundreth, twenty first one. That one burned down, fell over, then got eaten by the snarl, but the five millionth, three hundreth, and twenty second one stayed up! Or at least, it has been until now."

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    Quote Originally Posted by deuterio12 View Post
    As pointed out, the new human models have actual independent fingers instead of just "paws". That's not something you can get from just resolution upscaling. Hand-paws will remain hand-paws with the fingers locked until you make a new model with proper separate fingers.

    Yes, some of the overall body movements look similar, but that's because they're supposed to represent human beings and human beings are supposed to have limited skeletons and thus a limited range of movements. There's only so many variety you can fit in, say, walking before things start looking weird.

    Meanwhile we also have new animations like Bea with her martial art poses which weren't in any previous games.
    For fingers, that's something you can do as a change to an existing animation. Nothing about the animation would need to change below the wrist, after all. Some work would need to be done, but only in the area that's actually different.

    For overall body movements – there's quite a bit of room for small differences, actually. Someone can wave faster or slower, walk or run or jog with any number of different postures and paces... and the constraints on a model can be looser than an actual skeleton, if the artist thinks it looks better to cheat a little. Doing the same thing would look similar, but it's not going to be the same without either re-use or a deliberate effort to make it that way. (I haven't watched the comparison videos; I don't know whether they are the same to that degree in this particular case).

    And I'm not sure what your point is about Bea – nobody's said the games don't have anything new in them, and the idea of re-used assets is only any kind of problem because of specific claims that the art was going to be notably better (and then what we've seen often isn't).
    Last edited by Qwertystop; 2019-07-16 at 09:21 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by jamieth View Post
    ...though Talla does her best to sound objective and impartial, it doesn't cover stuff like "ask a 9-year-old to tank for the party."
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    Quote Originally Posted by Qwertystop View Post
    For fingers, that's something you can do as a change to an existing animation. Nothing about the animation would need to change below the wrist, after all. Some work would need to be done, but only in the area that's actually different.
    Who says that fingers were the only thing that got changed? You completely missed such a change in the first place. You could've missed others.

    And when there's enough changes planned, it's just easier to just make a new model from scratch than some patchwork.

    Quote Originally Posted by Qwertystop View Post
    For overall body movements – there's quite a bit of room for small differences, actually. Someone can wave faster or slower, walk or run or jog with any number of different postures and paces... and the constraints on a model can be looser than an actual skeleton, if the artist thinks it looks better to cheat a little. Doing the same thing would look similar, but it's not going to be the same without either re-use or a deliberate effort to make it that way. (I haven't watched the comparison videos; I don't know whether they are the same to that degree in this particular case).
    You mean the comparison videos who can't even tell the difference between paws and fingers? Not the most reliable of sources I would say.

    Quote Originally Posted by Qwertystop View Post
    And I'm not sure what your point is about Bea – nobody's said the games don't have anything new in them, and the idea of re-used assets is only any kind of problem because of specific claims that the art was going to be notably better (and then what we've seen often isn't).
    Human beings having actual independent fingers in their hands is notably better than having paws at the end of their arms.

    And lots of pokémon are supposed to have fingers or other articulate extremities but where often represented by closed paws.

    We only saw a few pokémon models yet, but even just needing to properly remake hundreds of pokémon extremities would be significant extra work.

    And then cramming old models with paws for hands would just terribly bad when side by side to models with actual fingers.

    But again, just as the people complaining can't tell the difference between paws and fingers, they could've just as easily missed other details, so yeah no wonder they'll claim the art is no better when they have no sense of art in the first place, claiming separate fingers aren't any better than paws.
    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Of Mantas View Post
    "You know, Durkon, I built this planet up from nothing. When I started here, all there was was a snarl. All the other gods said we were daft to build a planet over a snarl, but I built it all the same, just to show then. It got eaten by the snarl...

    ...so we built a five millionth, three hundreth, twenty first one. That one burned down, fell over, then got eaten by the snarl, but the five millionth, three hundreth, and twenty second one stayed up! Or at least, it has been until now."

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