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Thread: Sauron vs Voldemort
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2007-09-30, 10:56 PM (ISO 8601)
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Sauron vs Voldemort
I recently got into an argument today with a friend. He's a big fan of modern, pseudo-fantasy like Harry Potter, I prefer classic high fantasy like the Wheel of Time. Being the pair of geeks we were, we inevitably got into a massive debate over who was the superior evil overlord and tyrant, Sauron of Lord of the Rings fame or Voldemort from Harry Potter.
Now I think the answer should be obvious. Sauron (going by the books) is a demi-god, the utter incarnation of all mortal evils. In physical form he's a 7 foot tall monstrosity that can kill hundreds, thousands, without breaking a sweat. In spiritual form he can see everything in the entire world, probably able to find anyone anywhere. At his beck and call are millions, possibly billions, of ferocious orcs and beasts with penchants for dismemberment and no concept of personal safety. His 9 chief servants, the Nazgul, are impervious to all weapons, cause fear in all life with their very presence and are unparrelled warriors and sorcerors. The head of the Nazgul, the Witch-King, could be an evil overlord in his own right, but he's just one of Sauron's many servants. Hell, Sauron even routinely practices genetic engineering by crossbreeding different types of orcs and trolls to create larger, faster, stronger, smarter monstrosities.
Voldemort, on the other hand, is just a man. A paticularly stubborn man that refuses to die. He's nothing but a racist with a wand and fairly formidable magic skills. The closest equivalent I can think of would be a racist with a gun and markmanship skills gunning down blacks/asians/indians/whites/whatever. His servants are nothing but a handful of other racist wizards with some serious superiority complexes. He also has soul-sucking Dementors, I think Giants but I can't quite remember clearly, and Werewolves.
So, we debated this for some time without reaching any consensus. My friend seemed to think a single "Avada Kedavra" could kill Sauron, I pointed out that Sauron was a God. He said that individually, a wizard is absolutely superior to an orc, I pointed out that Sauron has millions of orcs whilst Voldemort only has a few dozen wizards. We reached no agreement other than to disagree. But what do you guys here at Giant at the Playground think? Who would win in an all-out war, each Dark Lord having the maximum amount of possible resources. To do this, let us say that Mordor materialized in our world, orcs and all, somewhere in Europe near to Britain. So, Sauron or Voldemort?
PS: I have to say, in terms of his name, Sauron is so much cooler than 'Voldemort'Last edited by Executor; 2007-09-30 at 10:57 PM.
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2007-09-30, 11:04 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Sauron vs Voldemort
Voldemort would be decimated. Sauron > Voldemort and all of his henchman.
The only reason Sauron was 'killed' was because he had his ring chopped off. Voldemort of course, would not know of Ringlore, and so he would not think of chopping off Sauron's hand.
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2007-09-30, 11:07 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Sauron vs Voldemort
I personally think it's a bit of an unfair comparison. Their context is too different to really compare them.
I believe both are "the ultimate evil overlord" in their own respective context.
Sauron comes from a world of high magic where non-human creatures and demigods are possible. He has the greatest resources available in his context.
Voldemort comes from a much more "human" context. He does not have access to the possibility of being a demigod and such a big number of non-human creatures with such strength as Sauron's creatures. His evil comes not so much from an idealized version of "pure evil", but from a human source: a superiority complex. However, in his context, he has the highest amount of possible resources.
In an outright war between the two, I'd say Sauron is more likely to win, due to the fact his world allows him more resources than Voldemort's. However, relatively speaking (And thus fairly!) I believe they're both about the same. Trying to compare them in a "war" among them, though, is much like trying to compare a praying mantis to a cat as predators. Which is the superior predator? The cat, or the mantis? The cat can kill the mantis, yes, but in their world, in their context, both are equally awesome predators, adapted perfectly to their environments.
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2007-09-30, 11:08 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Sauron vs Voldemort
I've always thought of Voldemort as a very, very weak villain. Nothing more than a jerk/raciest. I've haven't really thought much about LotR or read much on it, but I think that a demi-god of any sort beats Voldemort. Plus you're absolutely right. Sauron has armies and those sorts of things and all Voldemort really has is himself and a few devout helpers. I think that giants would leave Voldemort as soon as a million orcs charge them.
There's also the fact that Voldemort loses his wand and he's screwed and Sauron always has his powers. Even if he dies. (One ring.) Then again Voldemort has several soul things, but they don't corrupt and have a mind of their own like the ring does.
Also when you think about it all Voldemort needs to get put down is 100 fairly trained people with guns. There are only so many times he can yell that spell that kills people before he gets hit by heavy fire.
One final thing on the ring. If I was Sauron I'd give Voldemort the ring and then gain a pretty good servant/wait until he is really really really easy to betray.Last edited by Leper_Kahn; 2007-09-30 at 11:16 PM.
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2007-09-30, 11:08 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Sauron vs Voldemort
I think you put it best yourself. This isn't even a contest.
Moreover, Sauron was once himself a lieutenant; there are much, much bigger evil fish in the Middle-Earth pond.
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2007-09-30, 11:13 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Sauron vs Voldemort
Shortest fight ever. Voldemort is incredibly effective...in the Harry Potter universe. Drop him in a D&D campaign, and he's basically a lich with delusions of grandeur. He wouldn't last a week in a high fantasy setting. Gandalf/Elminster/whoever would send a group of mid/high level adventurers to his place and they'd have him dead in a few hours.
This is not a knock on the Harry Potter universe at all, mind you. The value of a villain has less to do with how powerful they are, but how well they fit into the story. But Sauron is on a different level of power than Voldemort, plain and simple. That said, I wouldn't bother arguing this with your friend. People take this kind of crap personally, even when they're hopelessly wrong. I once saw some kids on Gaia arguing that Sephiroth could beat Galactus. I had only brought the topic up as a joke, and bam! There go a bunch of Sephiroth fanboys/girls with no earthly idea who Galactus is arguing that he could be beateh by a guy less powerful than the cosmic heroes that Galactus creates.
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2007-09-30, 11:19 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Sauron vs Voldemort
This isn't a contest at all; Sauron has overwhelming numerical superiority. If you erased Voldemort's personality and just kept his abilities he could win, but as it is his anti-muggle stance prevents him from capitalising on his world's superior technology.
Voldemort + Death Eaters + Aurors is a fairly formidadable force; between Apparition and Killing Curses they could pull of an effective guerilla war. But Sauron's upper leadership (himself + Nazgul) have some powerful magic themselves, and are sufficiently unkillable for a decapitation strategy to be implausable. They could probably do quite a number on the orc hordes with Dementors, and Potter-verse giants would appear to be superior to LotR trolls, but in the end numbers are likely to win out.Thanks to Veera for the avatar.
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2007-09-30, 11:20 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Sauron vs Voldemort
The problem is you can't really compare their resources. Sauron has his own country with millions of orcs and is himself a demigod (he's a Maia, same order of power as Gandalf, Saruman, etc, although more powerful than they are). Voldemort is just a very powerful human with spells, etc. He has a group of similarly minded henchmen fighting in a mostly secret war. Hey, if Brits really knew about him and got pissed off enough, they could knock him out with a few cruise missiles (or worst case scenario, lay a trap and blow up a tactical nuke) with help from Order of the Phoenix.
In terms of resources Sauron would be closer to Hitler circa 1939. Give Hitler superhuman powers and whatever resources he already had and he would be equal to Sauron.
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2007-09-30, 11:22 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Sauron vs Voldemort
It reminds me of something I saw on a LJ community somewhere, a poll about who would win in a fight between Harry Potter and Cthulhu. Some snarky idiot said Cthulhu "because he represents the adult world, and Harry can't live in the adult world," or something like that Completely ignoring the fact that they're simply on entirely different power scales. It's comparing apples and Armageddon.
So, yeah, Sauron would win. He's the sort you don't bother statting out; if the party meets him face to face, they lose. Doesn't mean Voldemort is any less a dangerous or effective villain.Take my love, take my land
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2007-09-30, 11:26 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Sauron vs Voldemort
Voldemort...the lamest villain ever. Seriously! If you're going to take over the world, why not at least issue your sidekicks a .44 for when Potter and his band of half-baked miscreants manage to break their wands?
...or heck, better yet, why not just give them all shotguns in the first place?
^Mostly kidding, but you get the point. I just...Voldemort never seemed like a legitimate threat to me. Sauron, on the other hand, is entirely terrifying, though I don't think the books do him justice based on what my Tolkien-nerd friends have told me. (you know those people. "Well, if you look back to the First Age when the Silmarilsyada yada...")Improbability drive activated. The clown has been engaged.
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2007-09-30, 11:34 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Sauron vs Voldemort
I don't think of this as a joke at all. If I wanted to kill Voldemort the first thing I'd do is grab some serious firepower as well as a swat shield. Whatever the killing spell hits it bounces off of. Now I have cover and possibly a fully automatic weapon. If I had friends with me even more than that. What the hell do I care that Voldemort can kill a person with one spell? I can shoot crap loads faster than he can yell a spell at my face.
Also if I had access to training/long range weaponry I'd fly an army blackhawk at him and end it there. If I had long range weaponry, can you say smart bomb? It takes a push of a button thousands of miles away to kill him...The GitP WarCraft III The Frozen Throne Group: USEast(Azeroth), channel op GitP, 4 PM EST Friday
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2007-09-30, 11:44 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Sauron vs Voldemort
Thanks to Veera for the avatar.
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2007-09-30, 11:46 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Sauron vs Voldemort
I'd say Sauron, Voldemort is powerful, but he couldn't kill a baby and continues to get thwarted by the same baby.
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2007-10-01, 12:28 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Sauron vs Voldemort
sauron!!voldemort is a undernnourished racist.
think of that:if eventually voldemort runs out of mana?what then?stick poking...?
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2007-10-01, 12:31 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Sauron vs Voldemort
Thanks to Veera for the avatar.
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2007-10-01, 12:32 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Sauron vs Voldemort
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2007-10-01, 12:57 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Sauron vs Voldemort
What? How is this even a question?
Demi-god (or god, really, as he's certainly more powerful than other Maiar as presented) with entire nations at his direct beck-and-call, versus a guy with a wand, some sidekicks, and more phylacteries than is good for him.
Sauron, corporeal, just beats the **** out of him. Incorporeal, he mobs him with 10 million orcs. Seriously, what the hell is Voldy going to do? Even if Sauron dies, he's immortal unless someone chucks the One Ring into Mount Doom. Voldy, admittedly, has more phylacteries, but they are far more vulnerable.Spoiler
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2007-10-01, 01:18 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Sauron vs Voldemort
I'm trying to figure out what you could possibly mean by the words "pseudo" and "classic" here, but my dictionary has spontaneously combusted under the strain.
(Re: Sauron) In spiritual form he can see everything in the entire world, probably able to find anyone anywhere.
So, we debated this for some time without reaching any consensus. My friend seemed to think a single "Avada Kedavra" could kill Sauron, I pointed out that Sauron was a God. He said that individually, a wizard is absolutely superior to an orc, I pointed out that Sauron has millions of orcs whilst Voldemort only has a few dozen wizards. We reached no agreement other than to disagree. But what do you guys here at Giant at the Playground think? Who would win in an all-out war, each Dark Lord having the maximum amount of possible resources. To do this, let us say that Mordor materialized in our world, orcs and all, somewhere in Europe near to Britain. So, Sauron or Voldemort?
That gives Voldemort a 6-to-1 advantage over Sauron. Plus, once you've eliminated the horcruxes, you've still got to actually kill Voldemort (whereas destroying the Ring wipes out Sauron without any further ado).
I think Sauron's Achilles' heel is much larger, but -- due to the corruptive influence of the Ring -- it's actually much easier to destroy the horcruxes (assuming you can find either one). Voldemort wouldn't last half a second against the seductions of the Ring.
The only reason Sauron was 'killed' was because he had his ring chopped off. Voldemort of course, would not know of Ringlore, and so he would not think of chopping off Sauron's hand.
Basically? He is a lich. Rowling just changed the name from "phylactery" to "horcrux" and give him six of them.
It's been clear since Chamber of Secrets that Rowling played D&D at some point. The proof? Polyjuice potion. A potion of many juices? Doesn't make a lick of sense. That's a name that only make sense if you're thinking of a polymorph spell. And the only way you're thinking of that is if you are or have been a gamer.
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2007-10-01, 07:58 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Sauron vs Voldemort
Not true. Polymorph is a real word, not just a DnD word.
DnD majorly mirrors fantasy stories. You can easily ignore DnD and go straight for the sources DnD used.
The Phylactery thing is a very common device used by mythological wizards.
I think Voldemort actually has 7 Horcruxes."that nighted, penguin-fringed abyss" - At The Mountains of Madness, H.P. Lovecraft
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2007-10-01, 08:06 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Sauron vs Voldemort
I think someone needs to read book 7...
Anyway, Sauron, hands down.
Look, Sauron didn't need no stinking horcruxes to avoid dying. Sauron was defeated (as in, corporeally destroyed) two times in the ages before the 3rd age of man. Once when he assumed the form of a Vampire, and once after he persuaded the Numenorians to assail Valinor and Numenor was destroyed. After the 2nd time, he could no longer assume fair form, but he COULD and did come back. The third time he was destroyed, by Isuldur, he had put his power into the ring. While Sauron did this to gain power over the other races, it also created his only real, true weakness. Only by putting himself into the ring, which COULD be destroyed, could he ever truly be subject to utter destruction. In fact, even then, he lives on, but without the power of the ring, he is an ancient shade of evil unable ever to regain power.
Voldemort, on the other hand, was born a mortal, and was just avoiding death.
Honestly, your friend needs to study the Silmarillion...
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2007-10-01, 08:35 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Sauron vs Voldemort
Executor, please head over to Spacebattles.com to collect your Vlad Teaps Award for Senseless Violence and Unnecessary Cruelty.
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2007-10-01, 09:33 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Sauron vs Voldemort
The only way I see how Voldemort could win this contest would be if he got hold of the One Ring. He surely would be corrupted by it instantly, but on the other hand, there's not much to be corrupted about him anyway. Sufficiently powerful beings can use the One Ring to defeat Sauron, even though they turn evil by doing so. Voldemort wouldn't mind becoming evil; it's debatable whether he's powerful enough (he's, after all, not a Maiar like Gandalf and Saruman), but I imagine he might be.
Otherwise, he will be destroyed before he sees what hit him.
Though I agree with bluewind95. They do come from too different worlds for this to be a fair comparison. Also, while most people who have read the Silmarillion (including myself) will surely arrive at the impression that Sauron would shrug off an Avada Kedavra like nothing, there is no way how one could prove this. While we can argue that a demigod (or, more precisely, a high-ranking fallen angel) shouldn't have to worry about mere mortal magic, there is no way to prove to, say, Executor's friend, that an Avada Kedavra doesn't kill everything instantly, as it does in the Harry Potter setting (at least as far as I remember). That's the trouble with comparing completely different fantasy worlds.LGBTitP Supporter
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2007-10-01, 09:35 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Sauron vs Voldemort
As long as Sauron has the Ring, Voldemort is doomed. And unless Voldemort plans on getting within melee range of Sauron, which is a horrible idea, Sauron is invincible.
Your friend can't really think a piddly human can beat a demi-god of evil incarnate.
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2007-10-01, 09:36 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Sauron vs Voldemort
My thoughts as well. Seems to be a bit of a bias there.
This seems like a poor assumption. Voldemort, fascinated with all lore likely to give him an increased lifespan, would clearly be interested in ringlore if he exited in Sauron's fictional milieu.
Not totally screwed. Voldemort was very much hinted at being extremely strong in wandless magic. Which is saying something in the Harry Potter world.
Then again Voldemort has several soul things, but they don't corrupt and have a mind of their own like the ring does.
And, if you haven't yet, read Deathly Hallows:
SpoilerThat locket certainly had a corrupting influence.
In many cases, the influences of the Horcruxes were worse than the One Ring. They certainly developed their most dramatic effects far more rapidly.
[hr]n any case: yeah, there are two very different contexts here. This is a pretty silly concept. It is indeed that cat vs. praying mantis scenario described above.Last edited by Shhalahr Windrider; 2007-10-01 at 09:44 AM.
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2007-10-01, 09:43 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Sauron vs Voldemort
How can you ever take a villain in a children's book seriously?
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2007-10-01, 09:50 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Sauron vs Voldemort
One: Please don't dismiss a work purely because of its target age group. Many children's books portray their stories far better than those written for adults. Just because it's written for a younger audience doesn't mean it has cartoonish or otherwise less serious villains.
Two: Follow the series please. It may have started out with a simple children's book, but the Harry Potter series matured quite quickly. It seems to me, the target audience was generally about the same age as Harry was in any given book.
The Hobbit was also a pretty simple children's book, and that set the stage for The Lord of the Rings.Last edited by Shhalahr Windrider; 2007-10-01 at 10:29 AM.
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2007-10-01, 10:25 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Sauron vs Voldemort
In a hypothetical ass-kicking contest, Sauron would win handily. But it was never really personal with Sauron, so Voldemort is the better villain.
Don't blame me. I voted for Kodos.
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2007-10-01, 10:40 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Sauron vs Voldemort
Depends on what you mean by "better villain".
Yeah, the ones that make things personal tend to be easier to really get into. They can go wild and easily take the audiece with them. And they are often so much more fun to write and portray. Villains that make things personal are often (but not always) so much "juicier" than those who don't. They are better villains on a meta-level since it is easier to provoke reactions from the audience.
But then those that don't make things personal are usually more effective at what they do. They don't let their prejudices cloud their judgement. These villains get things done. They are better villains on a in-world level because they can be a bigger threat.The Future just ain’t what it used to be.
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2007-10-01, 11:01 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Sauron vs Voldemort
Heh, fantasy geekery at it's finest.
Aside from the fact that we might as well be arguing if Superman would win in a contest with Mighty Mouse, Sauron would own Voldemort unless he got VERY sloppy or Voldemort got VERY lucky.
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2007-10-01, 11:06 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Sauron vs Voldemort
On the other hand, a non-evil wizard from the Harry Potter universe would have shortened the Lord of the Rings greatly. Just apparate to the Crack of Doom, et voilà!
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