Sauron vs Voldemort

[The_Snark]

I think Voldimort would have trouble dealing with the Balrog, or Smaug. Gandalf defeated the Balrog, but couldn't take Sauron. Glorfindel would have had a chance against Sauron, given that he defeated one of Morgoth's other liuetenants, but someone thought Pippin should go along instead of the epic paladin brought back from the dead to defeat Sauron.

Glorfindel defeated another average Balrog (and died in the process), not one of Morgoth's lieutenants, and Elrond specifically said that Glorfindel would not have been able to fight Frodo's way to Mount Doom.

In fact, on that note I'm not sure anybody ever slew a Balrog without dying for it.

The whole thing about Glorfindel being the same one from the First Age arose out of 1. Tolkien realizing he'd given two elves the same name, 2. Tolkien realizing that since dead elves existed forever in Valinor, they should never be given the same name, and 3. Tolkien realizing he didn't want to change either name. It was a clumsy attempt to make sense of it. Glorfindel might have been close to as powerful as Gandalf, in the First Age, but not more so.

[Ziggy's_Roady]

Shortest fight ever. Voldemort is incredibly effective...in the Harry Potter universe. Drop him in a D&D campaign, and he's basically a lich with delusions of grandeur. He wouldn't last a week in a high fantasy setting. Gandalf/Elminster/whoever would send a group of mid/high level adventurers to his place and they'd have him dead in a few hours.

This is not a knock on the Harry Potter universe at all, mind you. The value of a villain has less to do with how powerful they are, but how well they fit into the story. But Sauron is on a different level of power than Voldemort, plain and simple. That said, I wouldn't bother arguing this with your friend. People take this kind of crap personally, even when they're hopelessly wrong. I once saw some kids on Gaia arguing that Sephiroth could beat Galactus. I had only brought the topic up as a joke, and bam! There go a bunch of Sephiroth fanboys/girls with no earthly idea who Galactus is arguing that he could be beateh by a guy less powerful than the cosmic heroes that Galactus creates.

You've...got..to..ne..kidding..me...

I mean, Sephiorth is cool, he's powerful, but lame..

RP fight between Sephiroth and Galactus

Sephiroth draws his sword and attempts to cut Galactus

Galactus steps on Sephiroth

Sephiroth summons Meteor

Galactus grabs the meteor and wings it at Sephiroth like a baseball, taking out him and an entire planet. Then eats the remains for dessert...

[Skjaldbakka]

Glorfindel defeated another average Balrog (and died in the process), not one of Morgoth's lieutenants, and Elrond specifically said that Glorfindel would not have been able to fight Frodo's way to Mount Doom.

Gothmog was one of Morgoth's lieutenants. Glorfindel died defeating Gothmog (that is at least what I remember, having read the Silmarillion only a few months ago. I remember looking him up in the appendix to the Silm. when I read the trilogy again, and his name stuck out to me. It said "Glorfindel- died defeating Gothmog, the lord of the Balrogs". Elrond saying something doesn't make it so. I never said Glorfindel could have defeated Sauron and his armies, just Sauron. You also can't deny that Glorfindel was awesome. He just didn't get any literary 'screen time'. He didn't get any screen time in the movies either. The cartoon used Legolas, and Peter Jackson used Arwen.

If he had been at Moria, him and Gandalf would have taken down the Balrog and lived to tell the tale.

EDIT-
I admit that I may be suffering from a slight bit of fan-boy syndrome, but I really like Glorfindel.

[The_Snark]

Gothmog was one of Morgoth's lieutenants. Glorfindel died defeating Gothmog (that is at least what I remember, having read the Silmarillion only a few months ago. I remember looking him up in the appendix to the Silm. when I read the trilogy again, and his name stuck out to me. It said "Glorfindel- died defeating Gothmog, the lord of the Balrogs". Elrond saying something doesn't make it so. I never said Glorfindel could have defeated Sauron and his armies, just Sauron. You also can't deny that Glorfindel was awesome. He just didn't get any literary 'screen time'. He didn't get any screen time in the movies either. The cartoon used Legolas, and Peter Jackson used Arwen.

If he had been at Moria, him and Gandalf would have taken down the Balrog and lived to tell the tale.

EDIT-
I admit that I may be suffering from a slight bit of fan-boy syndrome, but I really like Glorfindel.

Glorfindel's pretty cool, but he killed (and was killed by) an unnamed Balrog. Ecthelion was the one who killed Gothmog. Glorfindel couldn't have defeated Sauron. He couldn't have fought the nine Nazgul; he was powerful enough to panic the Nazgul and their horses into riding into the floodwaters with the help of their fear of fire, but not powerful enough that he could have defended Frodo from them without a strategy like that.

That's not to impugn him. He was pretty cool, and powerful; he did defeat the Witch-King (without the rest of the Nazgul) at one point. And he did get robbed of all his screen time.

[Skjaldbakka]

I coulda sworn it was Glorfindel, but I'm not going to argue the point until I have time to look at it again. I'm currently re-reading Turtledove's Great War saga (I highly recommend it).

[LordVader]

This is LOTR Sauron. Fiendfyre does not have to be aimed, and wand motions are simple enough. The assumed battlefield is a more or less open plain, so the wizard can sight a location with ease - or just release it from over the next hill.

What, exactly, is the range on the spell? Also, what if the Orcs just scatter away from the fire? And I can't see attack trolls being particularly bothered by it either.

And from the first post, we are assuming that it is Sauron in his physical incarnation.

[Vella_Malachite]

Come on, people, Frodo with a slingshot and a sword could totally wipe Voldy's butt off the face of the Earth! Knock Voldemort out with slingshot, walk over, chop his head off, bye bye Voldy. If the Death Eaters present a problem, hire Gandalf to deal with them.

Sauron has considerably more power than Frodo with a slingshot. There is no question that Sauron could defeat Voldemort with one swipe of his giant mace. And as for the Horcruxes (aka phylacteries), all Sauron has to do is wait for Voldemort to come back and pwn him again! This is completely within his power.

Also, completely irrelevant,

PS: I have to say, in terms of his name, Sauron is so much cooler than 'Voldemort'

Of course it is! How can you take a villain seriously when you can shorten his name to "Voldy"?? You have just removed all evil credibility and ruined his street cred by removing 5 letters off his name and giving it a cutesy ending!

Hehe...
Harry: How's it going, Voldy?
Voldy: I hate you. Die!
Harry: No.

[Rowanomicon]

There is no question that Sauron could defeat Voldemort with one swipe of his giant mace. And as for the Horcruxes (aka phylacteries), all Sauron has to do is wait for Voldemort to come back and pwn him again! This is completely within his power.

I agree with you, except that I think that Sauron wouldn't wait for Voldy to come back; he'd just damn his spirit to eternal suffering and servitude.

Harry: How's it going, Voldy?
Voldy: I hate you. Die!
Harry: No.

Oh hell yes!

[Wizzardman]

Of course it is! How can you take a villain seriously when you can shorten his name to "Voldy"?? You have just removed all evil credibility and ruined his street cred by removing 5 letters off his name and giving it a cutesy ending!

Hehe...
Harry: How's it going, Voldy?
Voldy: I hate you. Die!
Harry: No.

Could be worse...

Could be Moldywart.

With a name like Voldemort, the guy's just begging for cheap joke names and insults. That's why he had that 'speak my name' spell set up in the seventh book--so he could catch people making fun of his name.

Voldy: I am the Dark Lord Voldemort.
Harry: Damn, dude. Did your mother spill Alphabet Soup all over your birth certificate or something?
Voldy: No... my parents were hippies, I swear.

[DomaDoma]

Really now. The name might rhyme with "Moldyshorts", if you're... well, Lee Jordan is the only one likely to do that... but Voldemort itself means "Cheating Death", "Flight from Death", or "Death on Wings", depending on your personal preference. That's not alphabet soup, that's damn awesome.

We now return you to your regularly scheduled hypothetical ass-kicking.

[Lord of the Helms]

In fact, on that note I'm not sure anybody ever slew a Balrog without dying for it.

Tuor offed several and got away with his family and the refugees of Gondolin.

[SmartAlec]

Glorfindel never really 'fights' anyone after he comes back from over the Sea. I always suspected he was like post-Mount Doom Frodo, in that he'd taken an unspoken vow of pacifism after his ordeal. Having said that, he's still badass enough to scare the Witch-King away; it's possible that a powerful Elf like him casts such a bright light in The World Beyond that the Nazgul are afraid of him in a reversal of the way mortal Men are afraid of the Nazgul.

[Ditto]

Voldemort means 'Flight of death' or 'Flight from death', for what it's worth.

Rowan: If you want to say the Ring is only *convincing* the powerful Gandalfy folks that they could use it effectively, but is really lying to them, then that's an entirely different line of argument. But that implies the Ring could be used to at least *some* effect by them, thus resulting in the soon (but highly temporary, since apparently the Ring isn't physically allowed to hurt Sauron) termination of Sauron's existence. I don't think the Ring acts like that. It has to be in range of someone to start screwing with their heads. Gandalf and Galadriel and such had never seen the Ring up close and personal through the time they came these conclusions, so I find it unlikely that the Ring is spreading its own propaganda through word of mouth. (Saruman was talking directly to Sauron's brain, so I can see where he might have gotten his misinformation.)

Fiendfyre is a mobile spell - it wanders wherever it likes. And it's faster than any orc or troll on foot. And we don't necessarily know that it has to go out.

The first post does *not* assume Sauron is in his physical form - it states his badassery in physical form, then again in spiritual form (attributing a stray ability or two that is/are vastly overstates, but same diff). There's been a lot of discussion about the rather vague point of what Sauron was like as of LOTR. I'm significantly less afraid of him in physical form, because I know his favored method of offense is a giant melee weapon, which is not-so-scary to a wizard.

I continue to agree that Sauron + Ring = Voldemort + Screwed. If Voldemort gets the Ring and uses it to squish Sauron however, then the game is also over. 'The other Death Eaters might try to fight Voldemort and steal the Ring later...' doesn't matter. So long as the Ring and its power say so, Sauron is dead for the purposes of this thread. The Ring whispers sweet nothings, but it does not take over the mind of its possessor. It lies and sneaks and cajoles, but it does NOT have any great sentience - nothing beyond "Must escape!", "Sauron, look over here!", and "Dammit, stop touching me, you not-Sauron. Can't you go be greedy or agressive or lecherous instead?" It's not going to say, "You will now take off the Ring, perform the Fell Ritual of Mount Doom Resurrection, forge a new vessel for Sauron to inhabit, and hand me over to him if-you-please."

Isildur was great and all, but he didn't have any reason to *use* the Ring to defeat Sauron. Everyone thought he was dead for good.

Hang on, Voldemort can't take forever to master the Ring, but Sauron can take forever to hunt down horcruxes? You're mixing premises, The Snark.

That's right, I'd forgotten the Nazgul are afraid of fire... and fire is the first line of Ultimate Defense/Offense for HP wizards, isn't it? Another strike against Nazgul.

Can we go back to the part where someone thought elephants had magical protection from spells? That was funny.

[LordVader]

The original topic was "Sauron vs Voldemort", not "Sauron's minions vs Voldemort's minions". Thus, I assumed Sauron was in physical form.

And Voldemort cannot master the Ring. He probably wouldn't even be powerful enough with it to beat Sauron. Gandalf was an immortal spirit, and Galadriel was almost as powerful as he is. Even they are leagues away from Voldemort.

The reason I ask Fiendfyre's casting range is that's it's perfectly plausible that the Orcs would have plenty of time to perforate the wizard casting if it is indeed a short-range spell, which I believe it to be.

[Ditto]

Okay, so say he appears 30 feet in front of the swordsmen on the front line of the orc army, then... archers don't normally camp out in that area. Avoiding archers for a few seconds is not a big problem - but I still don't see why a mobile fire demon needs a significant range stipulation.

Sauron can be defeated in his noncorporeal form, too, by being permanently bottled up. Voldemort is the height of sorcery and whatever this nebulously defined willpower concept is as far as his universe is concerned; if anyone can master the Ring through a combination of training, research, and raw magical power, it is Voldemort.

And you're right, technically the thread does only single the two of them out. But look how much we learned about Bellatrix Lestrange and the Witch-King and oliphaunts!

[Rutee]

If you want to include minions, Sauron wins.

Sauron has what, at least tens of thousands of troops? If you count all the magical creatures that Voldemort allied with, he's got maybe 2000? Notwithstanding that IIRC, the reason the wizarding world is hidden is because if it wasn't, there'd be a fight with muggles (Because human nature is lolz), and the wizarding world would inevitably lose. Sauron doesn't have the tech. of our world, but he's got magic too, and really fierce and devoted troops.

As another note, Voldemort has no concept of how to direct an army against an army, IIRC. Covert war he can do. But given the Gondor Rangers' Modus Operandi, I strongly suspect that Sauron has more experience fighting a guerilla force then Voldemort has fighting a conventional one. To be fair, the Rangers don't have quite so many fun toys, like Imperius or whatever the mind control one was, or teleportation, but the rangers have more experience in, uh, actually operating in the wilderness. Mundane stealth, mundane alertnessness, etc.

Okay, so say he appears 30 feet in front of the swordsmen on the front line of the orc army, then... archers don't normally camp out in that area. Avoiding archers for a few seconds is not a big problem - but I still don't see why a mobile fire demon needs a significant range stipulation.

I think you need to be around Gandalf's level of power to just tell a volley of arrows lolzno, but I could be wrong. Just seems like there'd be a few more mages fighting if you didn't have to be about that good..

Also, out of curiosity, what can SAuron do in terms of magic? What can he field? Any evil mages like Saruman (not just Saruman, but like him) working for him? Could he create something that would nullify, say, Apparation? Would he need time to study said apparation to do so? (Seems reasonable if he could). There's a lot of focus on what Voldemort could do to Sauron, but not the other way around, and I'm curious as to why that is.

if anyone can master the Ring through a combination of training, research, and raw magical power, it is Voldemort.

I believe the point being made is "Voldemort can't". I wouldn't put money on anything doing it, if it's not somewhere around Deity level, either.

[Executor]

Well in physical form, Sauron is described as being able to devastate whole armies by himself (something upon which the books AND movies agree), has skin hot enough to kill men and elves simply by grabbing them, that's how Gil-Galad, the last King of the Elves, died, and all the physical strength that comes from being a 7-foot demi-god. And all this is GREATLY magnified by the Ring.

In terms of actual magic, Tolkien is less clear. LOTR magic is much more subtle and less flashly than HP magic. Usually people having a magic fight are describing as "Contending with the will of [Insert Evil Name Here]" So LOTR magic seems to be based on the mind and strength of will. Mind over magic type stuff. Sometimes it produces a bright aura of light, or effects like the Witch-King's flaming sword, but other than that it's fairly subtle. Though i'm sure Sauron, as a Maiar, could do much bigger things than a flaming sword.

[warty goblin]

Sauron can be defeated in his noncorporeal form, too, by being permanently bottled up. Voldemort is the height of sorcery and whatever this nebulously defined willpower concept is as far as his universe is concerned; if anyone can master the Ring through a combination of training, research, and raw magical power, it is Voldemort.

And you're right, technically the thread does only single the two of them out. But look how much we learned about Bellatrix Lestrange and the Witch-King and oliphaunts!

OK, I know I said I was done posting on this thread. So I'm a lair

If anybody in the Potterverse could use the Ring I'd say it would be Dumbledore, who's already very good at manipulating people, and is a very good wizard to boot. In most ways he actually seems like a more capable wizard than Voldermort, he just has more scruples and is less combat oriented. Voldermort came up with a, let's face it, pretty obvious exploit of horcruxes (apparently most dark wizards aren't munchkins, or everybody'd be doing the multiple horcrux thing) and some other nasty stuff (the spell that brought him back was partially of his own invention). Dumbledore discovered some serious alchemical stuff and was able to get pretty much the entire wizarding world to march unknowingly to his drum. No, Dumbledore with the Ring is a far more potent threat than Voldermort with the Ring. Sure Dumbledore is easier to kill, but other than that...


Going through known uses and users of magic:

The Lord of the Nazgul is also a powerful sorcerer, although what exactly that means in terms of power is not clear. He can create evil spirits of some kind (isn't that what the barrow wights are? Evils spirits that fled the fall of Agmar?) which is always useful, and can break the will of an army by his mere presence. The scream of the Nazgul seems to pretty much incapacitate all who hear it, and the Black Breath kills any who come to close. The nazgul can also throw lethal darts from the winged beasts, which is always useful.

The Mouth of Sauron is also described as a sorcerer I believe, although what exactly that means is again unclear.

Radagast has some command over animals, although again how much is unknown.

Gandalf can create lightening, pass unseen, and drive off Nazgul. Its implied that when he's attacked on Wethertop he can use fire as a weapon, like he did against the wargs in the Hobbit.

From much earlier- Fingoflin is apparently pretty much unstopable in combat, since he managed to nearly solo a god. Elves in general seem to be pretty much untouchable for the most part, particulalry the Noldor, although how relevant this is I'm not sure.

[bugsysservant]

That's it. I've seen too many obscure Tolkien references to let this pass. I'm starting a Tolkien quiz thread.

[Eita]

That's it. I've seen too many obscure Tolkien references to let this pass. I'm starting a Tolkien quiz thread.

Please no... The nerd in me will force me to buy the Children of Hurin and the Books of Lost Tales. Do you know how expensive those are?!

[Rowanomicon]

Rowan: If you want to say the Ring is only *convincing* the powerful Gandalfy folks that they could use it effectively, but is really lying to them, then that's an entirely different line of argument.

Yes, it is; I was merely stating that there is no evidence that The Ring could be used to destroy Sauron except for some people saying this. Granted, those people are generally quite credible, but we know that The Ring had at least some power over them so just how much is not quite clear.

But that implies the Ring could be used to at least *some* effect by them, thus resulting in the soon (but highly temporary, since apparently the Ring isn't physically allowed to hurt Sauron) termination of Sauron's existence.

Wait, how do you get from "some effect" to destroying a demi-god. Seriously, this is not logic.

I don't think the Ring acts like that. It has to be in range of someone to start screwing with their heads. Gandalf and Galadriel and such had never seen the Ring up close and personal through the time they came these conclusions, so I find it unlikely that the Ring is spreading its own propaganda through word of mouth.

Yeah...see, the thing is...well, you're wrong. Sorry, but both Gandalf and Galadriel did see The Ring up close and personal while they were saying those things.

Fiendfyre is a mobile spell - it wanders wherever it likes. And it's faster than any orc or troll on foot. And we don't necessarily know that it has to go out.

I'm pretty sure it goes out. If not there'd be an entire branch of the Ministry of Magic dedicated to hunting down and extinguishing stry fiendfyres.

I'm significantly less afraid of him in physical form, because I know his favored method of offense is a giant melee weapon, which is not-so-scary to a wizard.

Hahaha! Not afraid of Sauron? You will learn fear.
What I'm trying to say is, Sauron doesn't loose any powers simply because he is also pure bad-ass on the battle field. It's not like, "Hey, I can either be incredibly powerful in magic and able to strip people of their sanity OR I could be a seven foot physical incarnation of evil + win." He'd both! Either way you lose. This way you lose twice as much!

I continue to agree that Sauron + Ring = Voldemort + Screwed. If Voldemort gets the Ring and uses it to squish Sauron however, then the game is also over.

No, see, it doesn't work that way. The Ring is not a win button for anyone except Sauron. Even if Voldemort had the testicular fortitude to use The Ring (which he doesn't, and you refuse to give any evidence to the contrary except simply saying he does) it would take a lot of time. it wouldn't be an instant win.

'The other Death Eaters might try to fight Voldemort and steal the Ring later...' doesn't matter.

I never knew The Ring destroyed its master first and asked questions later. Seriously, if The Ring didn't start affecting people until after Sauron lost Tolkien's books would have been a lot lamer.

So long as the Ring and its power say so, Sauron is dead for the purposes of this thread.

Sauron is not dead for the purposes of this thread until he can be stopped from coming back and fighting, same as Voldemort. The difference is that Sauron can stop Voldemort from fighting without utterly destroying him; Voldemort has no way of stopping Sauron from coming back swinging except destroying The Ring, which he is incapable of.

Hang on, Voldemort can't take forever to master the Ring, but Sauron can take forever to hunt down horcruxes? You're mixing premises, The Snark.

Voldemort can take as long as he wants to master The Ring. The longer he's in posetion of it (heck, the longer he's thinking about it) the more until its power he falls.

Can we go back to the part where someone thought elephants had magical protection from spells? That was funny.

This really isn't worth responding to, but I will anyway because I failed my will save.
THEY'RE NOT ELEPHANTS!

Sauron can be defeated in his noncorporeal form, too, by being permanently bottled up.

Bottled up? I wont even get into Sauron specifically; how are you going to hold something incorporeal in a bottle? Let me guess, it's a ghost touch bottle? Please.
OK, I will get into Sauron specifically; even from the inside of a bottle he will still break your mind.

Voldemort is the height of sorcery and whatever this nebulously defined willpower concept is as far as his universe is concerned; if anyone can master the Ring through a combination of training, research, and raw magical power, it is Voldemort.

No, he's not and no, he can't.

And you're right, technically the thread does only single the two of them out. But look how much we learned about Bellatrix Lestrange and the Witch-King and oliphaunts!

Just because the Witch-King doesn't have the prophecy protecting him from Bellatrix doesn't mean she automatically wins. He's still way more powerful than her.
What did we learn about oliphaunts? That their actually called mumakil and they're bigger badder more awesome versions of elephants from a highly magical setting.

[Eita]

Yes, it is; I was merely stating that there is no evidence that The Ring could be used to destroy Sauron except for some people saying this. Granted, those people are generally quite credible, but we know that The Ring had at least some power over them so just how much is not quite clear.

Agreed.

Wait, how do you get from "some effect" to destroying a demi-god. Seriously, this is not logic.

Agreed.

Yeah...see, the thing is...well, you're wrong. Sorry, but both Gandalf and Galadriel did see The Ring up close and personal while they were saying those things.

Agreed.

I'm pretty sure it goes out. If not there'd be an entire branch of the Ministry of Magic dedicated to hunting down and extinguishing stry fiendfyres.

Fiendfyre is a banned spell. The Magical Reversal squad would deal with any cases of it roaming. And no, it doesn't go out. It's demon fire.

Hahaha! Not afraid of Sauron? You will learn fear.
What I'm trying to say is, Sauron doesn't loose any powers simply because he is also pure bad-ass on the battle field. It's not like, "Hey, I can either be incredibly powerful in magic and able to strip people of their sanity OR I could be a seven foot physical incarnation of evil + win." He'd both! Either way you lose. This way you lose twice as much!

Agreed.

No, see, it doesn't work that way. The Ring is not a win button for anyone except Sauron. Even if Voldemort had the testicular fortitude to use The Ring (which he doesn't, and you refuse to give any evidence to the contrary except simply saying he does) it would take a lot of time. it wouldn't be an instant win.

Agreed.

I never knew The Ring destroyed its master first and asked questions later. Seriously, if The Ring didn't start affecting people until after Sauron lost Tolkien's books would have been a lot lamer.

Agreed.

Sauron is not dead for the purposes of this thread until he can be stopped from coming back and fighting, same as Voldemort. The difference is that Sauron can stop Voldemort from fighting without utterly destroying him; Voldemort has no way of stopping Sauron from coming back swinging except destroying The Ring, which he is incapable of.

Agreed.

Voldemort can take as long as he wants to master The Ring. The longer he's in posetion of it (heck, the longer he's thinking about it) the more until its power he falls.

Agreed.

This really isn't worth responding to, but I will anyway because I failed my will save.
THEY'RE NOT ELEPHANTS!

That's right. They're the ancestors of elephants.

Bottled up? I wont even get into Sauron specifically; how are you going to hold something incorporeal in a bottle? Let me guess, it's a ghost touch bottle? Please.
OK, I will get into Sauron specifically; even from the inside of a bottle he will still break your mind.

Indeed. After Sauron 'died' at the end of the Second Age, he was still a powerful force for Team Evil.

No, he's not and no, he can't.

Yep. Dumbledore/Merlin is.

Just because the Witch-King doesn't have the prophecy protecting him from Bellatrix doesn't mean she automatically wins. He's still way more powerful than her.
What did we learn about oliphaunts? That their actually called mumakil and they're bigger badder more awesome versions of elephants from a highly magical setting.

"Avada Kedavra!"

*prong* "Hey! That tickled! Now it's my turn!"

*Black Breath*

[Ditto]

I know they're not elephants, just being facetious. It was a pretty ridiculous claim, so I was hoping for an equally ridiculous visual.

Gandalf and Galadriel had come to their conclusions about the Ring long before that point. You're right, my 'some power -> demigod squished' line was far too brief; everyone keeps stating that Gandalf etc., weilders of the +1 Holy Flashlights, are at least in the same league as Sauron, though not actually more powerful. If the Ring heightens their powers, then they would be more powerful than Sauron. Does that track a little better?

What is this 'fall under the power of the Ring' everyone keeps talking about? It does not have a complicated will of its own, does not specifically do Sauron's bidding, and I'm arguing that Voldemort is of sufficient strength to control what urges it does put out. It is not a means of controlling Voldemort without destroying him. Keeping Sauron bottled up (a figurative term, but in D&D terms a ghost touch or some 'spiritual' recepticle is exactly what we're talking about - binding spirits and gods into artefacts is all over fantasy literature, like in David Eddings' books) is accomplished by the Ring's power - again, something that hasn't been accomplished before because no one has had the Ring to use it in that way. Or to use at all. It's just not been used, because everyone is too goody-goody to play with it.

Testicular fortitude is a wonderful phrase.
Voldemort seriously is the most powerful wizard in HP, with, like, Dumbledore and Snape and McGonagall and that's it. So yeah, it is and yeah, he can. Dumbledore is arguably more powerful because he has the power of love, but that won't help him in the end if he wants to use the Ring and he'll still become evil. I'm still not sure what 'corruption' is going to bother Voldemort - unlike all of the other people who have tried to get the Ring, he's already evil. Isn't being the co-most powerful wizard in the world enough evidence? We haven't seen much wizarding power to Sauron's credit other than Forge Ring and Forge Epic Doohickey. Prove it.

Speaking of: Sauron is said to have powerful magics. The Witch-King is a powerful sorcerer. Whoop-de-doo. Until it can be demonstrated that LOTR-era Sauron & co. have any actual powers even theoritically capable of counteracting the wizards' HUGE magical advantage, then they don't have them.
-Bellatrix could beat the Witch-King because 1) Female, 2) Magic hurts Ringwraiths - perhaps even Avada Kedavra, to snuff out what little ember of life they have left. (They're still alive; without being alive, they're dead, which sucks for them as a fighting force. How's Sauron with undead?)
-Sauron in physical form is a big, tough, burny melee fighter, useful for fighting other sword'n'boarders on a grand scale. That's not saying anything about incredible eldritch powers, so yeah, I'm not that afraid of him. If he could lightning bolt the heroes of the age, I don't know why he wouldn't...

Fiendfyre seriously doesn't go out. And there is a branch of the MoM dedicated to putting such things out. But there aren't that many people tossing it around, since getting nabbed on that charge would be serious business.

[warty goblin]

Although apparently its stopped by doors...
[Joke]
Sauron equips his orcs with doors. A line of door carriers protects the archers, who then shoot over the doors!"
[/Joke]

I think the reason that everybody uses melee weapons in Middle Earth is not that magic is weak, but that with the proper bloodlines you can lay equal amounts of smack out with them as you could with magic, but draw far less attention doing so.

Ring wise, doesn't Frodo say that if he puts on the Ring, Sauron will see him. What happens if he's seen is not specified, but I'd imagine it involves some form of Mind Rape, suggesting that unless one can contend with the Will of Sauron, putting on the Ring is not a good thing.

Fiendfyre will do exactly nothing to Sauron, who's a giant burning warrior, who forges things in lava. I'm pretty sure this suggests immunity to fire. Avada Kedavera won't work, because he can't die (even destroying the Ring won't kill him, just render him powerless). In short, for a being as powerfully magical in essence as Sauron, unless there's evidence that magic works on him, I just don't think it will. And as a massive incarnation of evil, Sauron can also throw heavy things very fast. Sooner or later,one of 'em's gonna hit Voldermort and reduce him to a fine red smear.

[Ditto]

Holy crap, Sauron's a Hulking Hurler?!

I don't know that Fiendfyre would be useful against Sauron, but it'll certainly wipe the floor with everyone else. ::shrug:: I *guess* that's good enough. Fiendfyre is stopped by magical walls in the Room of Requirement, at least. I can see it being reined in by walls, at least for a little while, but it can probably deal with freestanding doors it's taller than. Same deal with Avada Kedavra and other hexes - they're often blocked by mundane objects, but that's when you switch to spells like Bombarda and Explodos and TurnIntoADuck. Wizards are Batmans in Harry Potter, too.

Avada Kedavra couldn't-quite-kill Voldemort either, but it did a good enough job back when Harry Potter was a baby that an alert wizard could have found some way to trap Voldemort's floaty bits. Same deal with Sauron, I'd think; not quite dead, but damn close.

Putting on the Ring allows Sauron to see you, yeah. Frodo was pretty terrified, but I would be too if I saw a giant flaming eye looking at me through a swirly spirit landscape. I don't recall other specific effects.

Being powerfully magical doesn't mean you're immune to magic. Wizards in HP and LOTR alike are highly magical, and they're not immune. Magic immunity is the exception rather than the rule, so I'd say the burden is on Sauron. (Not that I think it'll have full effects or whatever - demigod, blah blah. But Hercules was a demigod, and he died now and again. Gods die, too.) Is there another example of someone who is immune to magic? It's not like it's necessarily a common trait of folks in Middle Earth, since they don't have to deal with offensive magic enough to build up an immunity.

[Indon]

What is this 'fall under the power of the Ring' everyone keeps talking about? It does not have a complicated will of its own, does not specifically do Sauron's bidding, and I'm arguing that Voldemort is of sufficient strength to control what urges it does put out. It is not a means of controlling Voldemort without destroying him. Keeping Sauron bottled up (a figurative term, but in D&D terms a ghost touch or some 'spiritual' recepticle is exactly what we're talking about - binding spirits and gods into artefacts is all over fantasy literature, like in David Eddings' books) is accomplished by the Ring's power - again, something that hasn't been accomplished before because no one has had the Ring to use it in that way. Or to use at all. It's just not been used, because everyone is too goody-goody to play with it.

Well, really, the ring wouldn't enslave Voldemort; no doubt with the Ring, Voldemort could easily obliterate any trace of Sauron. But he wouldn't destroy the ring.

This leads to the Ring, which is Sauron's essence, basically upgrading Voldemort into Sauron; that "I'd just be an even bigger Dark Lord" thing that Gandalf commented on.

Really... (People who do not want spoilers on the Diablo video game series stop here)

Spoiler

Show

The Ring is Sauron's Soulstone. Kill Sauron, put the ring on, essentially become Sauron. Sauron doesn't lose, technically, and neither do you. Sauron does, however, get your power at the same time you get his.

[LordVader]

What is this 'fall under the power of the Ring' everyone keeps talking about? It does not have a complicated will of its own, does not specifically do Sauron's bidding, and I'm arguing that Voldemort is of sufficient strength to control what urges it does put out. It is not a means of controlling Voldemort without destroying him. Keeping Sauron bottled up (a figurative term, but in D&D terms a ghost touch or some 'spiritual' recepticle is exactly what we're talking about - binding spirits and gods into artefacts is all over fantasy literature, like in David Eddings' books) is accomplished by the Ring's power - again, something that hasn't been accomplished before because no one has had the Ring to use it in that way. Or to use at all. It's just not been used, because everyone is too goody-goody to play with it.

.

1. Yes it does. I cite Isildur putting it on and it falling off. It "escaping" from Gollum. That was intentional. It's clearly been stated in the books that the Ring has a mind of its own. Not out-and-out stated, but you see that it does.

2. Yes, it does specifically do Sauron's bidding. He created it with his blood. It may let others use its powers, but it's always in the intention of returning to him.

3. No, he isn't. If Gandalf, an immortal spirit, wasn't, Voldemort certainly can't resist the Ring's domination.

[Indon]

3. No, he isn't. If Gandalf, an immortal spirit, wasn't, Voldemort certainly can't resist the Ring's domination.

Gandalf knew he wouldn't be able to resist the Ring's power.

But he sure thought he could obliterate Sauron with it, at least at the beginning.

That implies the Ring's power is less, "I have the Ring, how may I serve you Sauron?" and more, "I have the Ring, Hi, I am Sauron."

[Ditto]

Gandalf certainly could have controlled the Ring, and used it to destory Sauron and become a truly terrible force of evil. Becoming an evil overlord does not make you Sauron, it makes you Sauron-like, in that you're evil and superpowerful. Not a bad thing. Voldemort is like Gandalf in that he's nifty enough to use it, but also becomes evil. Which for Voldemort, unlike for Gandalf, is actually a bonus.

Sauron cannot say, "Hey Ring, do me a favor and crush the hope of Men and make me a smoothie." He can say, "Remember how I programmed you to return to me at all costs? Do that thing." That's saying 'Turn on now.' That's not doing his bidding, it's executing a program.

And again, the Ring absolutely tries to escape - that's not 'complicated'. That's a hardwired response to any situation. I meant issuing specific directions, as cited above.

[Executor]

Ditto, you don't understand. Ring = Sauron, Sauron = Ring. So much of Sauron's essence went into the One Ring that, essentially, he is the Ring. Just as the Ring is Sauron. The Ring has a will of it's own and always it yearns to return to the hand of the REAL Dark Lord. It will betray it's bearers, escape them, abandon them, all in it's quest to return to Sauron. It's like a salmon. It'll swim upstream, past bears and fishermen and over waterfalls, all in the quest to return to it's birthplace.

But no, Voldie =/= Gandalf. Gandalf is the most dangerous being in Middle-Earth, second only to Sauron. Gandalf is also a Maiar, like Sauron, a demi-god. It took a similar Maiar, the Balrog, to take him down. Voldemort, for all his soul-splitting, is just a man. A petty, whiny, angry little man with a wand. Like I said in the OP, the closest real-world analogy would be a postal worker with a gun who's gone beserk for one reason or another. He doesn't have a gaze that can penetrate clouds, stone and flesh. He doesn't have 9 endlessly loyal, living avatars of terror and fear riding upon flying engines of death. He doesn't have literally innumerable hordes of orcs, trolls and evil men subservient to him through a mixture of fear and hatred. Voldemort is just an angry, stubborn little racist with a wand and a group of similarly-minded people, most of whom would betray him at a moment's notice. Especially in the face of orcs as far as the human eye can see and Nine wraiths that cannot die and suck all semblances of bravery out of you.

In short, Voldemort is, in every conceivable way, inferior to Sauron. Look, look right here. Yes, Voldemort can kill a man with one spell. Sauron can kill hundreds, including the most powerful heroes with the most noble bloodlines of the age, with a couple of mace swings
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f9lcJ...elated&search=