Sauron vs Voldemort

[warty goblin]

Another way to compare the two is by looking at how they appear in a more "spiritual" rather than physical way. Voldermort appears as a diseased, deformed and helpless baby, incapable of anything but crying, Sauron appears as the Flaming Eye and the Wheel of Fire. Galadrial appears as an immeasurably tall, beautiful, terrible and strong being (going from her temptation in the books anyway). I know Gandalf's "true" form is touched on when he saves Frodo from Sauron on Amon Hen, but I can't for the life of me remember what that was. Somebody help me?

Anyway, my conclusion is that Voldermort is so spiritually broken that he doesn't even register compared to Sauron or Galadriel- he is shown to be below human, which is way below an Elf or Istari wizard like Gandalf. Given this, I don't see how he could hope to bend the Ring to his will.

[LordVader]

Ditto, you don't understand. Ring = Sauron, Sauron = Ring. So much of Sauron's essence went into the One Ring that, essentially, he is the Ring. Just as the Ring is Sauron. The Ring has a will of it's own and always it yearns to return to the hand of the REAL Dark Lord. It will betray it's bearers, escape them, abandon them, all in it's quest to return to Sauron. It's like a salmon. It'll swim upstream, past bears and fishermen and over waterfalls, all in the quest to return to it's birthplace.

But no, Voldie =/= Gandalf. Gandalf is the most dangerous being in Middle-Earth, second only to Sauron. Gandalf is also a Maiar, like Sauron, a demi-god. It took a similar Maiar, the Balrog, to take him down. Voldemort, for all his soul-splitting, is just a man. A petty, whiny, angry little man with a wand. Like I said in the OP, the closest real-world analogy would be a postal worker with a gun who's gone beserk for one reason or another. He doesn't have a gaze that can penetrate clouds, stone and flesh. He doesn't have 9 endlessly loyal, living avatars of terror and fear riding upon flying engines of death. He doesn't have literally innumerable hordes of orcs, trolls and evil men subservient to him through a mixture of fear and hatred. Voldemort is just an angry, stubborn little racist with a wand and a group of similarly-minded people, most of whom would betray him at a moment's notice. Especially in the face of orcs as far as the human eye can see and Nine wraiths that cannot die and suck all semblances of bravery out of you.

In short, Voldemort is, in every conceivable way, inferior to Sauron. Look, look right here. Yes, Voldemort can kill a man with one spell. Sauron can kill hundreds, including the most powerful heroes with the most noble bloodlines of the age, with a couple of mace swings
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f9lcJ...elated&search=

But then he'll just pull out Fiendfyre, which apparently is an auto-win button for anything!

[Rowanomicon]

I'm too tired right now to go through every point and systematically prove Sauron to better than Voldemort in every way, especially when it's so bloody obvious.

I will once again state Ring=Sauron, Sauron=Ring. Also Voldemort is simply not on level with the immortal spirits of Middle Earth.

That thing about The Ring being hardwired and programmed is just plain rubbish. The Ring is one of the most powerful magic items/beings that the Tolkien universe has ever known. It is not a computer more basic than a calculator. It is a vastly complex, subtle, and powerful sentient artifact.

I'm getting tired of the argument:
"The Ring has a will..."
"No, it doesn't."
"Yes, it does. Here is evidence and reasoning."
"Nope."
"Actually, yes. Here's some more resoning and evidence."
"Nu-uh, nuh-uh, nu-uh!"

I highly doubt that Voldemort possesses a single spell that Sauron would even notice beyond "Hm, that could be useful to me once that guy's my servant."

I still maintain that getting The Ring would actually hurt Voldemort's chances (oh, wait, he doesn't have any) at winning.

In fact, considering that Voldy and his crew could do some decent damage to Sauron's horde, I imagine that Sauron would do something like this:

-Give some rings of power to some Death Eaters. Definitely he would give those of the Seven that he possessed. I'm not sure exactly what the deal with the Nine is. If he would still have unwavering control of the Nazgul even if the nine rings weren't in his possession then he'd give those out too.

-Wait for those Death Eaters to become his servants.
Now Sauron has access to HP magic and up to 13 new Nazgul caliber servants.
(Not to mention this, but greed for the rings would cause a lot of in-fighting in the Death Eaters and probably result in the death of at least a few.)

-Send the Nazgul and his new Death Eater Ring-wraiths (and perhaps some meat shields; Olog-hai, for instance, wouldn't be super-easy kills) to destroy/capture as many of Voldy's followers as possible in a single conflict. They'd retreat if/when the tides of that conflict turned and return later to do the same.

He wouldn't even use his horde because they wouldn't really be needed (but could be used if they were). Their main use in a battle would be as a distraction since, even though they can be easily killed, they still have to be killed (this takes time and attention).

Every time he captured a Death Eater (or other of Voldy's minions) he'd have another servant.

Eventually, he'd win.

For the record I see no reason to think the dementors would stay with Voldy over Sauron.

Oh, and one more time, Voldemort cannot effectively use The Ring to defeat Sauron.

[Ditto]

It's not an autowin button, except that it's huge and can't be put out... I mean, once the orcs find a way to not be burned by a raging firestorm, then they've got 'em licked.

Actually, distributing lesser rings to a Death Eater or two is a great idea. Definitely bad news for Voldemort. You still aren't going to capture a Death Eater - it's hard enough for other wizards to do that, in teams, with ranged stunbolts, and a whole host of other tricks.

I understand already: The Ring = Sauron. It's made of little Sauron Bits. That does not mean it can think for itself and issue orders or put people under its thrall. It most definitely can attempt to escape from its current bearer by any and all means; the hardwired comment was oversimplifying, obviously it's a hugely powerful artefact. Still: Ring Sauron and Mordor Guy Sauron are both made of the same stuff, but they are not the same person-consciousness.

The crying baby thing was just one version of Voldemort's soul, which was unceremoniously ripped off of him from a spell misfire and randomly grabbed for somewhere to hole up and hid for 17 years. Hardly the most sterling example of his evil soul's work. You could instead examine Tom Riddle from the diary... a little more impressive, and capable of some sorcery on its own. The Slytherin locket oozed despair and crafted elaborate and slightly disturbing slash fiction fantasies. Actually, the shrivelled bit of Voldemort was doing some magic too - it set up a link between him and Harry and transfered a number of perks & powers. Voldemort's soulboxes *can* think for themselves, look at that!

What that video showed me was a guy with a huge mace, hitting people with a huge mace. It was awesome. It was melee. ('Hundreds with one mace swing' is a slight overstatement...) Voldemort can do that too with big bludgeoning objects - and his enemies don't even have to be enraptured by the shininess of the Ring! What I also saw was a guy with a huge mace disappear in a poof of smoke without the Ring. Sauron isn't so threatening without his minions, and Voldemort & co. can handle those minions one way or another. Where are Sauron's powers?

The reason Voldemort isn't well-known for leading armies against armies is because wizards don't have armies. They don't need them. A wizard SWAT team (Aurors) is the equal of any medieval army. If you want allies, just animate every rock, tree, and hovel in sight. Summon walls of flame. Conjure gusts of wind. Wizards can do all of these thing individually.

EDIT: To the below, I'd like to point out that not dying in the first place is always better than coming back after the fact. Also, trolls in mythology have traditionally shown a marked vulnerability to fire, so if you suggest it's different in Tolkein then please demonstrate this fact.

[LordVader]

Ditto, we don't know if trolls are burned by fire, which I suspect they're not.

And yeah. Voldemort ripped his soul apart. Gandalf died, and came back to life. So I think that their respective power levels are a bit apart. It's highly doubtful Voldemort could master the Ring, in my opinion.

[Skjaldbakka]

That does not mean it can think for itself and issue orders or put people under its thrall.

Wrong on all three counts, actually. The ring was designed to issue orders and put people under its thrall. That it thinks for itself is pretty obvious to anyone who has read the books.

Also, trolls in mythology have traditionally shown a marked vulnerability to fire, so if you suggest it's different in Tolkein then please demonstrate this fact.

Trolls in LotR are not particularly vulnerable to fire, but neither are they particularly resistant to it. This is shown to be the case in the hobbit, as Theoden burns one of the trolls with a brand from the fire. The troll is injured appropriately for being hit with a burning branch in the eye, but not any more so than anyone else would me.

[The_Snark]

It's not an autowin button, except that it's huge and can't be put out... I mean, once the orcs find a way to not be burned by a raging firestorm, then they've got 'em licked.

Again, Fiendfyre was stopped by a wooden door. And Lord of the Rings people can do counterspells. In the book, Gandalf attempted to seal the doors in Moria against the orcs following; the Balrog attempted to counter it. It nearly succeeded, and Gandalf said that it nearly broke him. Exact words. The only reason it didn't was that Gandalf reinforced his spell with what he referred to as a Word of Power...

...which caused the door to explode. Violently. And bring down the (exquisite dwarven-made) ceiling.

Orcs, sure, they have no defense against it except to keep shooting arrows... the fire isn't big enough to kill them all at once.

I understand already: The Ring = Sauron. It's made of little Sauron Bits. That does not mean it can think for itself and issue orders or put people under its thrall. It most definitely can attempt to escape from its current bearer by any and all means, but that's about the extent of its intelligence. Ring Sauron and Mordor Guy Sauron are both made of the same stuff, but they are not the same person-consciousness.

It can't really think, no, and it does try to get away... but it's not completely mindless, either. I think that it would most likely try to delude Voldemort into immediately thinking that he could use its full power to confront and defeat Sauron, which would likely make him move too soon. And if he did that, Sauron would crush his willpower. Voldemort's intelligent... but also prone to overconfidence.

What that video showed me was a guy with a huge mace, hitting people with a huge mace. It was awesome. It was melee. ('Hundreds with one mace swing' is a slight overstatement...) Voldemort can do that too with big bludgeoning objects - and his enemies don't even have to be enraptured by the shininess of the Ring! What I also saw was a guy with a huge mace disappear in a poof of smoke without the Ring. Sauron isn't so threatening without his minions, and Voldemort & co. can handle those minions one way or another. Where are Sauron's powers?

He crushes your willpower? Denethor killed himself due to Sauron's influence. And that was only thrugh a palantir, and never in direct contact with him. And Denethor was not a weak-willed man.

[LordVader]

What leads me to think trolls might be resistant is their massively thick hides, nothing more.

And I'll say it again. By the time you Apparate in, cast Fiendfyre, and Apparate out, that's more than enough time for a good 100+ arrows to be flying your way. Nighty-night.

[warty goblin]

I understand already: The Ring = Sauron. It's made of little Sauron Bits. That does not mean it can think for itself and issue orders or put people under its thrall. It most definitely can attempt to escape from its current bearer by any and all means, but that's about the extent of its intelligence. Ring Sauron and Mordor Guy Sauron are both made of the same stuff, but they are not the same person-consciousness.

The crying baby thing was just one version of Voldemort's soul, which was unceremoniously ripped off of him from a spell misfire and randomly grabbed for somewhere to hole up and hid for 17 years. Hardly the most sterling example of his evil soul's work. You could instead examine Tom Riddle from the diary... a little more impressive, and capable of some sorcery on its own. The Slytherin locket oozed despair and crafted elaborate and slightly disturbing slash fiction fantasies. Actually, the shrivelled bit of Voldemort was doing some magic too - it set up a link between him and Harry and transfered a number of perks & powers. Voldemort's soulboxes *can* think for themselves, look at that!

Except for, you know, all of the times it does enthrall people- what does Frodo's inability to destroy it say, if not enthralled? Or Boromir's breaking of his oath to protect Frodo? Or Denethor (the book version) berating his son for not bringing back the Ring, when he had never even seen it? Even Sam, who's about the least power-hungry or evil being on the planet could barely give up the Ring, so entranced by visions of what he could do with it. Isildur, who had no reason to love the works of Sauron, having lost a brother and a father to them, and spent years seeking to destroy Sauron, and was seriously burned by the Ring, was overcome by it in minutes. Smeagol was driven to murder by its very sight. Yes some people do manage to overcome the Ring's temptation, but they do so by not lusting after power and recognition, things which, I think you have to admit, Voldermort lusts after a great deal.

And the Ring always tries to return to Sauron, if Voldermort found it, my guess is that it would lead him to attack Sauron directly, and then betray him, so that it could find itself back on its Masters Hand again.

Yes, the baby was only one piece of Voldermort's soul, but let's face it, the other's weren't that impressive either. The diary managed to overcome the will of an emotionally vulnerable eleven year old girl, and the locket made people a little cranky. Sure something almost managed to come out of the diary, and was capable of a little sorcery (the most we see is fiery letters, whoo). Both were destroyed by whacking them with something magical- which Sauron probably has lots of. The snake was killed by an uncordinated seventeen year old boy with a sword (made out of silver no less, possibly the worst sword making material since gold) and the diadam caught fire. Not exactly adamentine and immune to punishment. Horcruxes generate slash fic and overcome 11 year old girls, the Ring drives people mad.Nobody is capable of destroying the Ring on purpose, period.

[LordVader]

It's worth noting Sam had the ring for a few hours at most, and could barely take it off.

Also, I lol'd at the "Sauron isn't so threatening without his minions" comment. Tell that to all the Last Alliance soldiers right in front of him.

[Ditto]

*LOTR wispy Sauron, not Tall Mace Sauron with Kung-fu Grip, my bad.
There you are then, trolls are trolls like any other folk.

The horcruxes are not fragile... they were destroyed by Fiendfyre, basilisk venom, an enchanted legacy weapon, and.... well, the snake is normal fleshy.

That's right, they do indeed have counterspelling. The wizards will be in trouble just as soon as Sauron whips out that secret stash of Balrogs he's been hiding away for a rainy day.

The Ring's machinations are extensions of the "Hey! Put me down!" idea. Enthrall was too choice of a word - it most definitely does enrapture folks. I meant a more deliberate, conscious, complex sort of enthrallment. What the Ring does is say, "Hey! Come get me! At least you're not the guy who's holding me now!", not "You will take out your sword and sneak up behind him. Issue an overhand blow to the base of Denethor's skull." It's certainly clever enough, but I just want people to stop saying "Ring = Sauron!" like they have a Rary's Telepathic Bond going between them. And I'm still not really trying to sell the 'Destroy the Ring FTW' idea right now...

If all these orc archers are ready to shoot anyone, anywhere, in the space of three seconds, then you're going to have a whooole lot of collateral damage. Those are the twitchiest damn archers I've ever heard of.

Fiendfyre was sealed within the Room of Requirement, not just blocked by any door. And they don't have doors on battlefields. And if orcs want to shoot arrows at fire, they're welcome to.

[The_Snark]

That's right, they do indeed have counterspelling. The wizards will be in trouble just as soon as Sauron whips out that secret stash of Balrogs he's been hiding away for a rainy day.

Well, I was thinking more that Sauron could do that... and the Nazgul... and other unnamed entities on Sauron's side. Such as the Mouth of Sauron (or others among the Black Numenoreans), or the malevolent presences of Minal Morgul, or... you get the picture.

The Ring's machinations are extensions of the "Hey! Put me down!" idea. Enthrall was too choice of a word - it most definitely does enrapture folks. I meant a more deliberate, conscious, complex sort of enthrallment. What the Ring does is say, "Hey! Come get me! At least you're not the guy who's holding me now!", not "You will take out your sword and sneak up behind him. Issue an overhand blow to the base of Denethor's skull." It's certainly clever enough, but I just want people to stop saying "Ring = Sauron!" like they have a Rary's Telepathic Bond going between them. And I'm still not really trying to sell the 'Destroy the Ring FTW' idea right now...

True, although it's more complex than simply "pick me up;" as numerous people have pointed out, it actively attempts to convince the wearer to take it towards Sauron, and if it can't do that it tries to lose its host. It is surprisingly clever for something that can't be said to think in the traditional sense of the word.

If all these orc archers are ready to shoot anyone, anywhere, in the space of three seconds, then you're going to have a whooole lot of collateral damage. Those are the twitchiest damn archers I've ever heard of.

Fiendfyre was sealed within the Room of Requirement, not just blocked by any door. And they don't have doors on battlefields. And if orcs want to shoot arrows at fire, they're welcome to.

Twitchy? For... holding bows on a battlefield? Or did you mean you'd Apparate out of nowhere, use Fiendfyre, and Apparate back?

If so, that would be valid, except for the problem of locating the large concentrations of Orcs. Scouting into Sauron's territory by broomstick is likely to get you attacked by winged Nazgul; attempting to do anything like scrying will put you in contact with Sauron via palantir, which is a good way to be subverted.

And okay. It was held back by a magic door. Again... magic is not completely beyond Sauron's forces. I'll grant that it's a devastating weapon against orcs and trolls, but there's still enough of those that they could overcome wizards through sheer exhaustion.

[Rowanomicon]

See, the thing is, I don't really think Sauron would go out and fight Voldy's forces in a big battle. If he did he'd send cannon fodder to be just that. So saying that Voly's forces can kill Sauron's cannon foder is no big deal.

One thing is that in Mordor no one's magic, except Sauron's, work. Therefore the death eaters would be nothing more than Ku Klux Klan members marching to their certain doom (at Mount Doom).

In fact, Sauron doesn't need to even fight Voldemort. What's Voldy gonna do? Teleport to the edge of Mordor then go for a nice stroll down mind-rape lane?

Seriously, what does Voldy have on Sauron? Nothing. He can't do jack.
H can't destroy The Ring. He can't use The Ring*1. He'd lose much of his forces rather quickly*2. None of his, or his minions, magic would work in Mordor.

*1 If he had The Ring most likely it would convince him he could take Sauron in an immediate attack and once within a certain proximity it would betray him.

*2 The dementors would be much more at home with Sauron (plus he has more to offer them). Also he would corrupt some Death Eaters to his side rather quickly. As for the other troops: I really can't see giants etc standing their ground against Sauron's forces.

I'd explain the whole Ring deal to you again, but you wouldn't get it or, if you did, you'd refuse to admit that you got it.
I don't mean that as an insult, I'm just calling it as I've seen it so far.

Also the Death Eaters would have to find the orcs outside of Mordor (which would only be marching to accomplish specific strategic goals, not to head like lambs to the slaughter) before teleporting at them. I wouldn't suggest any form of scrying either. I don't know a lot about HP scrying, but I do know that I wouldn't try any form of scrying in a Sauron's world.

Sauron, however, is very good with scrying and once he had a couple Death Eaters on his side it'd be *poof* Nazgul and Sauron's Death Eater appear: Black breath, Morgul Blade/Black Arrow, Avada Kedavra *poof* gone. Even if Sauron only got himself one Death Eater that's 10 he can kill every time he does that.

I'm getting the feeling that this is a futile argument though...

[Leper_Kahn]

The Slytherin locket oozed despair and crafted elaborate and slightly disturbing slash fiction fantasies. Actually, the shrivelled bit of Voldemort was doing some magic too - it set up a link between him and Harry and transfered a number of perks & powers. Voldemort's soulboxes *can* think for themselves, look at that!

Oozed despair? You mean how it made Ron, the most annoying and already very discontented of the group, a little bit meaner? It also made Harry a bit tired? I'm not so sure about oozed... Did it set up a link? I don't remember that. I also don't remember it thinking... I do remember it talking to Ron, but not much else. Also, when it did Ron was able to overcome it. This is coming from a pissed teenager who was tired of the journey to begin with.

The reason Voldemort isn't well-known for leading armies against armies is because wizards don't have armies. They don't need them. A wizard SWAT team (Aurors) is the equal of any medieval army. If you want allies, just animate every rock, tree, and hovel in sight. Summon walls of flame. Conjure gusts of wind. Wizards can do all of these thing individually.

It isn't that they don't need them it is that they don't HAVE them. The HP books talk about the most prestigious schools of magical teaching and there are three of them. While there is no exact number of wizards and witches enrolled at Hogwarts it can't be much higher or lower than the other three. Even then I doubt it is past 1000. My school is 2000 and our auditorium seats half of these and it is twice as big as the grand hall in the HP movies. So if you don't think that is a fair assessment then that's okay.

Anyway, so say the wizards could have armies, but they don't use them since a specialized group of wizards could pull off the same thing as a medieval army. First off LotRs armies aren't medieval armies. They are fantasy armies of thousands at the least. Most consist of men or elves (or orcs) born for combat and trained their whole lives. If that wasn't enough every battle is overseen by at least one wizard on each side. In Tolkien magic wizards don't actually fight. They influence the outcome of the battle. (Much like described in OotS.) Even in getting to a place wizards influence how it happens. When Aragorn, Gimli, and Legolas chase down the orcs keeping Merry and Pipin the orcs "Move as if the very whips of their master's were behind them." Just because the magic isn't obvious that doesn't mean it isn't there. When Saroun attacks Minis Tirith the Witch King doesn't seem to do much. I mean he rides in, screams a bit, lands, and then gets owned. I'd bet money that if you were to ask Tolkien if the Witch King influenced the battle beyond what it looked like he did Tolkien would answer, "Are you kidding?! Yes!!"

Battles between armies in LotR consist of a sort of contest of wills. So, Voldy with his strike team and no will to contest that of Saroun will get wiped out, even with a terribly trained and and organized army under Saroun's control. Things just don't work that way in Tolkien's world. If they did:

The hero's would never go to war. Aragorn alone can kill 10+ orcs at a time. With all the infighting in Mordor they'd just have to send in 10 hero-esk troops to deal with massive amounts of the army. Especially since there is no such thing as a telephone, and the hero's would be gone before Saroun even heard the outcome.

[LordVader]

Also, Apparating in, casting Fiendfyre, and Apparating out will take at least 10-15 seconds, plenty of time for the Orcs for fire and kill you. Also, Fiendfyre is magically-summoned fire, nothing more. Trolls have to be at least partially fire-resistant due to their hides, and Orcs can just run away from the fire.

And really, you can't claim that Horcruxes are as strong as a Ring of Power. Nuh-uh.

Ditto, I'm curious- have you read the LOTR books?

[Indon]

But no, Voldie =/= Gandalf. Gandalf is the most dangerous being in Middle-Earth, second only to Sauron. Gandalf is also a Maiar, like Sauron, a demi-god. It took a similar Maiar, the Balrog, to take him down. Voldemort, for all his soul-splitting, is just a man. A petty, whiny, angry little man with a wand.

Voldemort is not just a man. Voldemort is a Wizard from a different universe. Being an HP Wizard makes you much more potent than practically any mortal in Middle-Earth.

He can kill far more than one man with a spell; he can kill many men. He can only kill one Wizard with a spell, because Wizards are hardy.

You can't just say, "Voldemort doesn't have the power because he isn't X specific thing in Middle-Earth". He is of a similar level of power, though he isn't the exact same thing. It's like saying Sauron can't beat Harry Potter universe evil magic because he doesn't have love and happy thoughts. Sauron can resist HP magic, even of the evil variety, because he has his own, comparable form of power, even if he doesn't have the specific kind of deus ex machina technically required to do so.

[Ditto]

Yes, I've read LOTR. I haven't read the pre-books, which is where a lot of folks seem to be drawing evidence for how epic various things are. Doesn't make a whole lot of difference if their power levels are established as different at the time of the trilogy, but handy information on several other items.

Vader, try this: First, count to ten. Then say the following: "Pop, Fiendfyre, Pop." See the difference? Casting time is very, very short. Fiendfyre itself is very fast. It was described as a maelstrom of blazing scary burnination. I'm pretty sure a tornado of fire can outrun an orc, seriously. I'm also not claiming Voldemort's horcruxes are 'more powerful' than the Ring of power, just that they're quite tough (not must-be-cast-into-the-fires-of-Mount-Doom tough, but still), and they demonstrate a degree of intelligence and self-awareness above that of the Ring. I don't care which one you think is cooler, I'm just pointing out that horcruxes are more impressive than the mere phylacteries some make them out to be.

The Voldemort-baby is what set up the link to Harry's head, Leper. Nothing to do with the locket. Sorry if that was confusingly written. Still, the locket created a fanfic. A disturbingly graphic-for-JKR piece of prose. ::shudder::

Most Potterheads place the school at about 300 students. None claim higher than 1,000. Wizards in D&D do fight... and LOTR armies are medieval *fantasy* armies. They are not led by wizards, they are led by Uruks and such. If the Nazgul are around, they aren't leading the troops - they're doing their own thing. Heroes like Aragorn are heroes because they're rare - and they can't take on entire armies by themselves. What do you mean, battles in LOTR are only contests of wills? So there's no swordplay involved? Orcs and men and arrows don't fly and die? Either I've *completely* missed the point of what you're saying, or that's a pretty ridiculous paragraph.

Rowan: No worries, we're all friends here. I understand exactly what you're saying the Ring is. I disagree. The Ring does not think. It does not have thoughts. It does not ponder. It is not the person named Sauron, Voldemort's adversary in this battle. It is a totally kickass horcrux. The horcruxiest of horcruxes. But it is not Sauron.
-Sauron is good at scrying? The whole Giant Flaming Eye thing is impressive, but has he been able to just look up folks like Aragorn and Theoden and Gandalf and Merry on a whim? HP scrying is situationally awesome or full of suck, so it's not part of the main battle plan.
-Can't find the orcs? There's a battlefield at some point. In a vs. thread, orcs aren't marching around to accomplish strategic goals like Hold the city and Destroy the bridge.
-Voldemort is actually pretty careful about charging into battle when he's dealing with an artefact... he held onto the Elder Wand for a while and didn't want to use it in battle until he had mastered it, and only came to Hogwarts because he had to.
-Giants are tough and big and strong, but they can die just like trolls can, sure. I don't know why they'd send a bunch of giants against a larger orc army, though. Giants are useful in wizard fights because they're magic resistant.
-If they find magic doesn't work in Mordor, then they'll stay the hell out of Mordor.

It's like saying Sauron can't beat Harry Potter universe evil magic because he doesn't have love and happy thoughts.

Another fine point, which I’ve stated before. Certain things are necessarily judged against their own universes. Voldemort is the height of power. That and the prophecy thing are key in-universe factors that got lost somewhere along the thread.

[WalkingTarget]

Vader, try this: First, count to ten. Then say the following: "Pop, Fiendfyre, Pop." See the difference? Casting time is very, very short. Fiendfyre itself is very fast. It was described as a maelstrom of blazing scary burnination. I'm pretty sure a tornado of fire can outrun an orc, seriously.

I haven't gotten to this whole Fiendfyre thing yet (just finished book 3 a few minutes ago), but it sounds nasty and if it's like what Ditto describes, I'm going to have to agree with him on some points. There is no evidence in Tolkien that any of the standard troops of Mordor would have any defense against it. Orcs, humans, and Mumakil = BBQ. Trolls might last a little longer just because they're very rocky, but other than that there's no evidence of any sort of "magic resistance" or anything like that. That pretty much just leaves the Nazgul. The Witch-king shows some control over magic fire (i.e. his sword bursts into flame at one point), so it might not be an auto-win against them (and therefore they might be able to prevent some losses on their side, possibly their mounts at the least). Presumably, if any Balrogs are still around to get involved, I'd say they'd be immune anyway due to being spirits of shadow and flame already. We're getting into the gray area between continuities here though, so we can't really make any definitive claims either way.

As for broomsticks = safety, there are cases in LotR of people breaking things at a distance. Gandalf causes Saruman's staff to break, the door in Moria breaks under the strains of opposing spells, and the Witch-king breaks Frodo's sword at the fords outside of Rivendell. Here's a quote:

"Then the leader, who was now half across the Ford, stood up in his stirrups, and raised his hand. Frodo was stricken dumb. He felt his tongue cleave to his mouth, and his heart labouring. His sword broke and fell out of his shaking hand… "

So I don't think it would be beyond belief for the Nazgul to be able to break somebody's broomstick (from what I've read so far, they don't seem to be extremely tough to begin with). Yes, I know that weapons used against the Witch-king do not endure, but both Merry's and Eowyn's weapons were consumed as if they were burning wood immediately (which didn't happen to his), so I'd contend that Frodo didn't actually land a blow.

If the Nazgul are around, they aren't leading the troops - they're doing their own thing.

The Witch-king was Sauron's general, he was the first one through the gates of Minas Tirith when they were broken (literally leading at that point). We don't know what the other 8 were up to for most of the fight so we can't say if they were leading troops or not.

-Sauron is good at scrying? The whole Giant Flaming Eye thing is impressive, but has he been able to just look up folks like Aragorn and Theoden and Gandalf and Merry on a whim? HP scrying is situationally awesome or full of suck, so it's not part of the main battle plan.

Giant Flaming Eye didn't happen, giant in black armor knocking dozens of men and elves aside with each mace stroke didn't happen, every depiction of Sauron in the films is a creation of the filmmakers. Sauron does not make a single personal appearance in the books outside of second-hand desriptions and those were only in reference to single body parts (Gollum mentioned a black hand, the lidless eye imagery was from a vision). Tolkien said in a letter that Sauron was greater in stature than a man, but isn't enormous, so the size from the prologue of the first movie is probably about right. He personally slew Gil-galad and Elendil (and vice versa), but we have no evidence of any other personal combat nor do we know what, if any, weapon he used. We don't know how effective he'd be in a large-scale melee other than knowing that Gil-galad was killed just from the heat he puts out.

Sauron's scrying is due to the possession of a palantir. He can see pretty much anywhere he wants, but it doesn't help him find anything and he can't see everything at once. It's more of an awesome spy satellite, he has to be looking at the right place at the right time to get anything useful, but he has some places he keeps an eye on because they're important.

Certain things are necessarily judged against their own universes.

Hear, hear! Direct comparisons are impossible between just about any continuities, extrapolations are all that are available to us.

Voldemort is the height of power. That and the prophecy thing are key in-universe factors that got lost somewhere along the thread.

Of course, then you start getting into the power of plot. If Voldemort can't be defeated because nobody except Harry can defeat him, then the basic premise of a vs. thread is inapplicable. I guess Sauron could always just Owl-Post one of the nine or seven rings to Harry and go from there.

Another point that's come up a few times (and once again, this is my reading of things so people are more than free to disagree) is that if Sauron is defeated by somebody who manages to wield the ring, then he's gone for good and/or the wielder "becomes" Sauron. My interpretation has always been that the power to command others which the ring bestows (and that's what Sauron has always been after, the ability to dominate the wills of everyone in Middle-earth) would allow whoever uses it effectively to set up shop as another dark lord/lady, but they are not Sauron. They have just displaced him and are now in charge of the Barad-dur. This does not mean that Sauron is gone and can't start pulling strings again and/or look for the horcruxes (since it didn't happen in the books, Tolkien is silent on this point). Sauron without the ring is still Sauron.

[Indon]

Of course, then you start getting into the power of plot. If Voldemort can't be defeated because nobody except Harry can defeat him, then the basic premise of a vs. thread is inapplicable. I guess Sauron could always just Owl-Post one of the nine or seven rings to Harry and go from there.

Yeah, this is my point. Sauron and Voldemort should be given liberties where their powers are comparable to exempt them from specific requirements they don't have access to in their universes. Sauron doesn't have love or happiness or Harry Potter to kill Voldemort, but we waive that. Voldemort wasn't born a divine deity, but that doesn't mean he can't kill people with a thought or demonstrate mastery of powerful magical artifacts in Middle-earth because we waive the Middle-Earth-specific power requirements for him.

Another point that's come up a few times (and once again, this is my reading of things so people are more than free to disagree) is that if Sauron is defeated by somebody who manages to wield the ring, then he's gone for good and/or the wielder "becomes" Sauron. My interpretation has always been that the power to command others which the ring bestows (and that's what Sauron has always been after, the ability to dominate the wills of everyone in Middle-earth) would allow whoever uses it effectively to set up shop as another dark lord/lady, but they are not Sauron. They have just displaced him and are now in charge of the Barad-dur. This does not mean that Sauron is gone and can't start pulling strings again and/or look for the horcruxes (since it didn't happen in the books, Tolkien is silent on this point). Sauron without the ring is still Sauron.

That's an interesting point. If Voldemort defeats Sauron with the ring, what happens, then? Does Sauron come back, or does killing Sauron with his own ring pretty much vanquish him?

We might simply not know enough to resolve the Voldemort-uses-The-Ring scenario.

[warty goblin]

Good point on the Witch-King being able to sunder weapons from a distance. Since he can indeed do that, I really fail to see what hope a wizard would have, since a wand is a good deal weaker than a sword (and the sword he broke was specificially made to fight him, and was deeply imminical to the Witch-King) and wandless, wizards are pretty helpless (can they even apparete?) Regardless, it negates their range advantage and makes them significantly more vulnerable to impalement.

Wands are made out of what, dragon heartstring, unicorn hair and pheonix feather? Dragons do exist in Middle Earth, but don't exactly grow on trees (and are damn hard to kill anyways) but the other two are right out. The wooden components are easy to come by, but the boom componenent of the boomstick isn't, suggesting that the wizards would eventually run out of wands and hence the ability to be meaningful combatents. They lack the melee skills of elves or Numenorians, and aren't trained in melee weapons regardless. Even if they are slightly tougher, I don't see them being able to take on more than an orc at a time, and will certainly fall to a Uruk or troll.

[LordVader]

Vader, try this: First, count to ten. Then say the following: "Pop, Fiendfyre, Pop.

So essentially you're saying that to Apparate, you don't have to say/think words, think of a destination, or move your wand, you just go *pop*. That's news to me.

[WalkingTarget]

So essentially you're saying that to Apparate, you don't have to say/think words, think of a destination, or move your wand, you just go *pop*. That's news to me.

I haven't seen much of Apparate yet, but I think Ditto's point was that, after arriving in a random spot via a teleportation spell, saying one word to cast Fiendfyre, then saying a second word while waving a wand to teleport again doesn't take much time (I'd say a second or two). Having a second destination in mind before you arrive at the first one makes the "think of a destination" part a rather trivial amount of time. The point had been argued enough that the "pop" was shorthand to indicate the short amount of time it takes to cast spells.

[Greebo]

So essentially you're saying that to Apparate, you don't have to say/think words, think of a destination, or move your wand, you just go *pop*. That's news to me.

That is canon per the Harry Potter series.

Wizards can apparate very quickly, and it is a nonverbal action. It only requires a wand.

However, it does require total focus on your destination, or you end up splinching (leaving part of yourself behind).

[LordVader]

I'd argue that having a storm of arrows flying at you would be a bit of a distraction.

And yes, the first *pop* will be a split-second one. But then it'll take a second or so to get your bearings, another second or two to cast Fiendfyre-we don't even know what kind of motions are required to cast it. Then, you have to call up your destination again, and wave your wand again to cast it. And you have to be completely focused. That's a good 5 seconds right there. And since it seems you have to be pretty close to cast Fiendfyre, that's enough time for arrows to be launched and have a good chance of hitting. If one even wounds you as you're Apparating, then you'll Splinch yourself as well.

And after you pull this off the first time, Orcs will be on watch for wizards appearing out of nowhere and doing this, significantly decreasing your chances of survival.

[zerombr]

no...no no no no no No No No NO NO NO NO NO NO NO!
we do NOT need to throw these two together in a cage match! We do not need to do this! Just considering it robs us of our dignity

[Ditto]

Returning to the same point requires significantly less brainpower, I guess, if you really want to quantify relative speed-of-thought. (Isn't this on the level of 'sizes of infinity'?) You do not have to wave a wand (or carry a wand) or speak words to apparate. Hermione apparated to Tottenham Court Road as a reflex - and even a random location is better than a battlefield. I'll revise that statement to say, "Pop, Fiendfyre, go back home." You can't just say "Archers, expect people to appear without warning and shoot them." Think about how absurd that sounds. What, do they keep arrows at full draw 24/7? Archers are *not* ready all the time like that. Ask an archer. Everyone in war is expected to be alert against unforseen attacks at any moment, but it's not as easy as saying so. As far as aiming Fiendfyre, you could just point the wand straight up...

If we remove the prophecy protecting Voldemort, then the Witch-King loses his too. The Witch-King's is significantly more get-around-able than Voldemorts while it's intact, but same difference.

The Witch-King is not going to be everywhere; he still has to land a gaze attack and 'aim' his sunder-laser-eyes; barrow-blades are swords with spells on them, and not magically crafted in the same way a wand is, so I would not assume that shattering a weapon works at all the same way as shattering some other magical doohickey, especially since we've only seen this ability once. Being a Nazgul-bane sword in no way suggests that it is immune to their magic, either.

[The_Snark]

Returning to the same point requires significantly less brainpower, I guess, if you really want to quantify relative speed-of-thought. (Isn't this on the level of 'sizes of infinity'?) You do not have to wave a wand (or carry a wand) or speak words to apparate. Hermione apparated to Tottenham Court Road as a reflex - and even a random location is better than a battlefield. I'll revise that statement to say, "Pop, Fiendfyre, go back home." You can't just say "Archers, expect people to appear without warning and shoot them." Think about how absurd that sounds. What, do they keep arrows at full draw 24/7? Archers are *not* ready all the time like that. Ask an archer. Everyone in war is expected to be alert against unforseen attacks at any moment, but it's not as easy as saying so. As far as aiming Fiendfyre, you could just point the wand straight up...

We don't know how long it takes to invoke Fiendfyre, though; some spells do take longer than speed-of-thought, and the complex ones seem to require the words.

And Apparating can be instant, but requires concentration and lucidity, two things that are difficult to muster around Nazgul and Sauron's other malevolent presences (the Watchers, whatever was inside Minas Morgul...).

If we remove the prophecy protecting Voldemort, then the Witch-King loses his too. The Witch-King's is significantly more get-around-able than Voldemorts while it's intact, but same difference.

Fair enough; I've been counting the Witch-King without prophecy anyway.

The Witch-King is not going to be everywhere; he still has to land a gaze attack and 'aim' his sunder-laser-eyes; barrow-blades are swords with spells on them, and not magically crafted in the same way a wand is, so I would not assume that shattering a weapon works at all the same way as shattering some other magical doohickey, especially since we've only seen this ability once. Being a Nazgul-bane sword in no way suggests that it is immune to their magic, either.

Tom Bombadil destroyed the wall of one of the Barrows. Grond was enchanted with spells to sunder the gates of Minas Tirith. Most importantly, Gandalf shattered Saruman's staff. Shattering objects, including magical objects, is something fairly established.

Also... gaze attack? Wha?

no...no no no no no No No No NO NO NO NO NO NO NO!
we do NOT need to throw these two together in a cage match! We do not need to do this! Just considering it robs us of our dignity

*looks sadly at own dignity, which has been left by the wayside*

[VeisuItaTyhjyys]

I'm trying to remember which one got killed by an angsty teenage boy and failed to kill a baby.

[LordVader]

As stated by The Snark, we have no idea what the casting time or requirements are for Fiendfyre. Also, you can't tell archers to nock bows 24/7, but you can tell them to be on the watch for attackers teleporting into their midst and to be carrying their bows.

[Tyrant]

I'm still wondering why Sauron doesn't attempt to invade the HP universe (or present if we assume Middle Earth is the past)? I wouldn't think it would be overly difficult for him to bend people to his will in the present. For instance, the people who's hands are on the buttons. I understand places like Hogwarts apparently have anti technology spells protecting them. What about the countryside a few miles away? You only need to hit so close to a target with a high yield thermonuclear warhead to get the desired effect of killing everything. Or he could do what he apparently does best and manipulate the humans into war with the wizards. In the Potterverse it seems to be a logical assumption that wizards lose that battle. Those rings of power coupled with promises of great power would go a long way in the modern world. Especially with no voice of reason (Gandalf, etc) to counterbalance his influence.

Or simply infiltrate the wizard world and bend people to his will. Maybe use his legions to capture some of these creatures (the ones that don't willingly join him) that exist there and send them back to Mordor to be twisted and crossbred with everything else. Possibly leading to magic resistant legions. Then arm them with modern weaponry (specifically things which fire bullets) and let them loose. Depending on how these anti tech spells work, I would imagine (most)firearms would have to be exempt. The internal mechanics aren't terribly complex(no circuitry, only movable parts) and the whole thing works via a reaction with gunpowder. Wizards might be able to dodge arrows (mainly due to load time), but dodging walls of lead that can be fired at a moments notice is a little different.