Sauron vs Voldemort

[Rowanomicon]

One quick thing: with infinite forces you can always have many arrows ready to fire at wizards.

[Ditto]

Voldemort's team does not have the Muggle military. Likewise, Sauron does not have Gandalf around for Voldemort to co-opt.

Harry apparated on his first try after having been cut and almost dragged underwater by animated corpses and being forced to feed his hero and protector icky juice unto death. An adult Death Eater has been doing this a while, even in battle now and again. (And they can turn into pretty black clouds! Ooohh!)

I still defy any archer to notice the slight pop, draw his arrow, aim, draw back his bow, and accurately hit a man among many other men in the space of three seconds. Sauron doesn't have infinite forces, nor are they all archers - a minority by a long shot. And even if he did, they aren't all standing alert (especially in the daytime) with their arrows pointed in every direction at once. Think about that scene in your head and how many orcs would be pincushions., especially if the wizard just conjured up a dancing shadow or a man-shaped dust bunny instead of actually going in.

I'll poke my nose into HP7, but I don't believe the incantation was more complex than any other

[LordVader]

Actually, Harry could not Apparate through most of the sixth book. He failed miserably on his first try.

It's also worthy to point out that if you apparate into the middle of an Orc formation, you're as good as dead, as their first reflex action will be to draw their swords and lash out at you.

And if they're appearing outside the formations, the whole point is that the Orcs don't have to be accurate because there's about 500 arrows airborne.

[rashambo]

They are not even in the same league. Sauron was a near-god with thousands of followers. Tom Riddle had problems with an 11-year old that eventually grew up and permanently killed him.

Sauron had a much larger "soft spot" than Voldemort. If the ring is destroyed, so was he. Voldie was like a cat: he had 7-8 lives with the horcruxes and you had to destroy them all to finally finish him.

It would play out like a chess game. Sauron would send out his leigons to dispatch voldie and the death eaters and voldie would be researching how to drop Sauron.

Toe-to-toe, Sauron in one hit. If it were a cat-and-mouse game that voldemort can use guerrilla tactics, he's got as good a shot as frodo did.

[warty goblin]

They are not even in the same league. Sauron was a near-god with thousands of followers. Tom Riddle had problems with an 11-year old that eventually grew up and permanently killed him.

Sauron had a much larger "soft spot" than Voldemort. If the ring is destroyed, so was he. Voldie was like a cat: he had 7-8 lives with the horcruxes and you had to destroy them all to finally finish him.

It would play out like a chess game. Sauron would send out his leigons to dispatch voldie and the death eaters and voldie would be researching how to drop Sauron.

Toe-to-toe, Sauron in one hit. If it were a cat-and-mouse game that voldemort can use guerrilla tactics, he's got as good a shot as frodo did.

Except Voldermort can't destroy the Ring- nobody can. And I maintain that he lacks the power to overthrow Sauron with the Ring as well- in fact in Voldermort aquired the Ring there's a significant chance that it would destroy the Death Eaters since they would kill each other over it.

[Tyrant]

Voldemort's team does not have the Muggle military. Likewise, Sauron does not have Gandalf around for Voldemort to co-opt.

Why would Voldemort have the muggle military? He isn't the one who's main gimmick is corrupting others to his will now is he. Sauron, on the other hand, is all about that. If we assume that Team Potterverse can travel to Middle Earth, why is the opposite not also true? Let loose in the modern world, Sauron would quickly have a major foothold. Then he could easily turn the weapons of the modern age against Voldy. Or, use it to completely dominate Middle Earth giving him an unshakable power base from which to launch attacks. Or better yet, just release the full nuclear aresenal of either the US or Russia and go back to Middle Earth. In a struggle such as this, I doubt Sauron's big plan would be to sit back and only react. That's not really a fight now is it? We seem to be making a lot of assumptions about Voldy, yet we don't want to assume Sauron might actively go on the offensive?

As for how, he wouldn't even need to corrupt everyone. One man was able to do serious damage to Rohan and he was the minion of a minion of Sauron. Someone like that in an advisery position whispering the right words into the right ears could turn whole governments to Sauron's cause.

As for Gandalf, again, Voldy isn't the corrupting one. Gandalf wouldn't side with him. He would sweep him aside and resume his more pressing mission of dealing with Sauron.

Also, why is anyone assuming that Voldy can somehow learn everything about the ring and master it? All the while, Sauron apparently remains completely unaware of Potterverse magic? I think if we are going to assume Voldy can get his hands on ringlore and somehow hope to effectively use it, then Sauron and Co. would get access to Potterverse magic. I would argue that if one can assume that Voldy has any shot at mastering the ring (thought I highly doubt he does) then Sauron and Co. will have no problem mastering Potterverse magic. In which case, you just send the 9 apparating about throwing forbidden curses and supreme fear about amongst the death eaters and see how long they last.

[Ditto]

Tyrant - I was stressing that Gandalf and Frodo and the British are *not* part of this battle. You suggested Sauron ought get them involved and drop a nuke, but that's totally irrelevant; if we're allowing the idea of swaying people from the other side, it can *only* be people who are actually on the team. It's not The Potterverse vs. Middle Earth.

Sauron can study whatever he wants - if you're not a wand-toting wizard, though you can't perform HP magic. Likewise, Voldemort will never be able to weild the power of the +1 Shiny Flashlight, since it was just a channel for Gandalf's shininess. (A great loss!) Voldemort has all the time in the world to learn about the Ring because Sauron apparently has all the time in the world to decide whether he's won or not. Since it's against the rules to destroy the Ring, then Sauron's notquitedead - which is really good enough for me. Didn't the Men and Elves win the War of the Last Alliance? Or did they say, "Hang on, guys, there's an asterisk on our scoreboard... it says Sauron may have been declared the winner, pre-emptively, by Sauron. They're going to count hanging chads for 2,000 years, and then we'll compare relative military strengths to see who REALLY won the war that we just won."

...and having thought about it like that, Voldemort does *not* need to destroy the Ring and rid the (Middle) Earth of any chance of Sauron's return to win. The Men and Elves won the war of the Last Alliance; the Order/Good Guys won the First Wizarding War. The fact that the other guy comes back doesn't mean you don't win. (Someone suggest the Confederates haven't technically lost the Civil War yet, c'mon guys...)

[The_Snark]

Tyrant - I was stressing that Gandalf and Frodo and the British are *not* part of this battle. You suggested Sauron ought get them involved and drop a nuke, but that's totally irrelevant; if we're allowing the idea of swaying people from the other side, it can *only* be people who are actually on the team. It's not The Potterverse vs. Middle Earth.

Agreed...

Sauron can study whatever he wants - if you're not a wand-toting wizard, though you can't perform HP magic. Likewise, Voldemort will never be able to weild the power of the +1 Shiny Flashlight, since it was just a channel for Gandalf's shininess. (A great loss!) Voldemort has all the time in the world to learn about the Ring because Sauron apparently has all the time in the world to decide whether he's won or not. Since it's against the rules to destroy the Ring, then Sauron's notquitedead - which is really good enough for me. Didn't the Men and Elves win the War of the Last Alliance? Or did they say, "Hang on, guys, there's an asterisk on our scoreboard... it says Sauron may have been declared the winner, pre-emptively, by Sauron. They're going to count hanging chads for 2,000 years, and then we'll compare relative military strengths to see who REALLY won the war that we just won."

...and having thought about it like that, Voldemort does *not* need to destroy the Ring and rid the (Middle) Earth of any chance of Sauron's return to win. The Men and Elves won the war of the Last Alliance; the Order/Good Guys won the First Wizarding War. The fact that the other guy comes back doesn't mean you don't win. (Someone suggest the Confederates haven't technically lost the Civil War yet, c'mon guys...)[/QUOTE]

Agreed on the second point; if Voldemort can beat Sauron, it counts as a win for him. On the first, though... How is he researching this? HP Divination is inscrutable and unreliable enough to be essentially useless, and trying to use prophecies for his ends got Voldemort killed (both not-quite-killed and really-dead).

There isn't really any way for Voldemort to get information on the rings. They're known of, but only commoners living in countries directly affected by Mordor even knew of the existence of the Rings of Power. Frodo had no idea they existed. Boromir didn't know anything about the Ring other than that it was powerful, not even that it was Isildur's Bane. You're left with the Elves, the wizards, and a few other loremasters among dwarves and men who know some but not all of the story, plus Sauron's higher minions.

And arguing that Sauron can't use wand-magic if he studied it leads directly to the argument that Voldemort can't use the Ring, because he doesn't possess the bloodlines/inherent power necessary to do that. And I still haven't seen any argument for how Voldemort would actually bring down Sauron, except by mastering the Ring and resisting its efforts to bring him down.

[Eita]

Sauron can study whatever he wants - if you're not a wand-toting wizard, though you can't perform HP magic. Likewise, Voldemort will never be able to weild the power of the +1 Shiny Flashlight, since it was just a channel for Gandalf's shininess. (A great loss!)

It's far more then just a flashlight. The light was magical in all respects and repelled what could be known as a Greater Demon bred with an Eye of Fear and Flame. Just replace Fear with Shadow. Now, onto the point, Gandalf's inherent power was made far greater by the "+1 Shiny Flashlight" that if he didn't get a new staff when he was literally reborn it would be a great loss.

The staff is to a Wizard as to an HP Wizard's wand (okay, bad analogy considering that LoTR Wizards can still do epic stuff without a staff, but it'll work).

Voldemort has all the time in the world to learn about the Ring because Sauron apparently has all the time in the world to decide whether he's won or not. Since it's against the rules to destroy the Ring, then Sauron's notquitedead - which is really good enough for me.

He's dead by Voldemort's perception of event. And it's not permadeath. Voldemort would win the short war but lose the epic Age-spanning campaign. Feth, even when the Ring went bye-bye, he still existed.

Didn't the Men and Elves win the War of the Last Alliance? Or did they say, "Hang on, guys, there's an asterisk on our scoreboard... it says Sauron may have been declared the winner, pre-emptively, by Sauron. They're going to count hanging chads for 2,000 years, and then we'll compare relative military strengths to see who REALLY won the war that we just won."

Thanks Isildur's corruption, pretty much. Or did you miss that whole war thing that followed Sauron's rise?

[Ditto]

Wand magic is an extension of the magical qualities of a wizard. It's the same reason a Muggle can't use magic. HP trolls, giants, and centaurs can't do it. The Ring is different in that it's a magical item that greatly increases the power of the wearer - most dramatically in Sauron's case, but not exclusively. (This is based on the LOTRers' explanations of the Ring.) Someone on Sauron's side could use Gryffindor's sword or a Foe-glass.

Mastering the Ring is one plan of attack, yes. (I don't know why that isn't enough to count...) In addition, though there's still magic... I'm not sure why we assumed the battle is generally happening on Middle Earth, but there's certainly no reason it should happen in Mordor on the steppes of Mount Doom. It's perfectly possible that an auto-kill spell, the likes of which are not seen in LOTR, would poof Sauron to his vapory form (assuming he came to battle in physical form). Even if not, Sauron can still be stabbed and cut. A hailstorm of animated blades isn't going to be good for him.

Eita - I know it's not permadeath, but killing Sauron ends the war. You don't have to win 'history'. No one does that. Also, the Flashlight is a running joke. I'm sure it's very impressive.

[Setra]

This is slowly turning into another Thread-That-Shall-Not-Be-Named... like Link vs. Sephiroth

[EvilElitest]

i agree with winter wind with the way the great lord saruon loeses his ring without his ability to recover with hundreds of thousands of minions iis really disapointing and he cant even get it from a child sized 70yearold hobbit




p.s. tell me what you think of my new signature

He was useing those hundreds of thousands of minions to wipe out all his enemies. The idea of sending hobbits into morder is insane, even the good guys think so, their is no way he'd suspect it
from,
EE

[Tyrant]

Tyrant - I was stressing that Gandalf and Frodo and the British are *not* part of this battle. You suggested Sauron ought get them involved and drop a nuke, but that's totally irrelevant; if we're allowing the idea of swaying people from the other side, it can *only* be people who are actually on the team. It's not The Potterverse vs. Middle Earth.

I bring it up for a variety of reasons. The first is that I really did wonder why we assumed the battle was taking place in Middle Earth and not modern Earth. Modern Earth clearly changes the game. The second is that if Voldy is to have any hope of using the ring, the other people/places/things have to exist on Middle Earth and have to be accesable to Voldy. Otherwise, the only person with in depth knowledge of the ring is Sauron and something tells me he won't be in the mood to spread info about it (other than info that helps him of course). So, to assume Voldy has access to this type of thing and not assume that Sauron can do the same is kind of lopsided and clearly is trying to favor the outcome towards Voldy for no reason other than personal bias. To this I have seen added the assumptions that Voldy gets to plan out a massive attack strategy (apparating, getting the ring, researching Sauron and Evil Inc., etc) whereas Sauron is apparently just going to sit there and Voldy's team is apparently allowed to live to fight another day (apparate, hit and run) while Sauron isn't (you stop him, you win even if you don't actually kill him). These aren't equal conditions and tell me that even Voldy supporters recognise that on equal terms Voldy loses. If this goes beyond even one battle, or if Sauron has any warning about what's coming to claim his throne, he can win quite easily. He will simply do what he does best and bend the death eaters (and dementors) to his will as they meet pretty well all the criteria to be corrupted by him. Then Voldy has to contend with Suaron, Sauron's minions, Voldy's old minions (now quite likely with shiny new rings of power), plus his own desire to posses the ring (or a ring anyway).

Sauron can study whatever he wants - if you're not a wand-toting wizard, though you can't perform HP magic. Likewise, Voldemort will never be able to weild the power of the +1 Shiny Flashlight, since it was just a channel for Gandalf's shininess. (A great loss!)

These conditions would also mean Voldy has no hope of wielding the ring. At the end of the day he is a man. He may have found a way to cheat death, but that doesn't make him the same as a true immortal. The immortals (Sauron, Gandalf, etc) exist beyond the physical realm and have power beyond mortals. Voldy is simply a man cheating death. In this case, immortal doesn't mean exactly the same thing.

Also, I would think if one was to assume that Voldy has any hope of wielding the ring or to hope that his magic will do anything to Sauron, then one has to assume that Sauron can use HP magic. If a demigod hasn't got what it takes to use it, then I suspect he doesn't have what it takes to be effected by it. Seriously, as I haven't read the HP books, what exactly makes the wizards able to wield magic? I assume it is something in the blood as it is seamingly passed down. So, why would something with the power of Sauron not have whatever quality this is?

Voldemort has all the time in the world to learn about the Ring because Sauron apparently has all the time in the world to decide whether he's won or not.

Learn about it from who? Or where? We exclude Sauron twisting the modern world against Voldy, we have to exclude Voldy twisting the Middle Earth world against Sauron. Once you do that, then only Sauron knows of the ring (well, and a few of his minions) and he isn't going to spell out to Voldy how to destroy it and definately not how to use it. Anything he finds out about the ring will be info purposefully planted by Sauron to help find the ring for himself.

...and having thought about it like that, Voldemort does *not* need to destroy the Ring and rid the (Middle) Earth of any chance of Sauron's return to win.

So Sauron doesn't have to destroy the Horcruxes to win? Simply breaking Voldy or killing him once will suffice? How is this a contest again?

[LordVader]

Sauron can study whatever he wants - if you're not a wand-toting wizard, though you can't perform HP magic.

Not Wizard magic, but it's worth noting elves can perfom magic with no wands.

i agree with winter wind with the way the great lord saruon loeses his ring without his ability to recover with hundreds of thousands of minions iis really disapointing and he cant even get it from a child sized 70yearold hobbit




p.s. tell me what you think of my new signature

Sort of like how the most powerful wizard of all time dying to a snot-nosed kid because he overlooks the power of "love" is disappointing? I mean, come on. That's gotta be the biggest deus ex I've ever seen. "Love"? Yeah, right.

[The_Snark]

Wand magic is an extension of the magical qualities of a wizard. It's the same reason a Muggle can't use magic. HP trolls, giants, and centaurs can't do it. The Ring is different in that it's a magical item that greatly increases the power of the wearer - most dramatically in Sauron's case, but not exclusively. (This is based on the LOTRers' explanations of the Ring.) Someone on Sauron's side could use Gryffindor's sword or a Foe-glass.

The goblins imply that they could use wand magic if wizards were willing to share its secrets, which implies that those who already have magic can use wands.

And while anybody can use the Ring for some things, it won't be nearly as powerful for a normal human. It would have worked for Saruman and Gandalf, or one of the older Elves such as Elrond or Galadriel; Sauron also feared the Heir of Gondor using it, as Aragorn was descended from Beren and Luthien. I rather doubt that Boromir or Denethor could actually have done much with it, though, and we know that despite half a millenium with the Ring, Gollum could never do anything more with it than turn invisible. (That was partially due to being weak-willed and not really trying).

And again, you haven't really explained how Voldemort knows anything about the Rings, particularly why he shouldn't pick up one of the Nine (a powerful magical artifact? Sure!).

Mastering the Ring is one plan of attack, yes. (I don't know why that isn't enough to count...) In addition, though there's still magic... I'm not sure why we assumed the battle is generally happening on Middle Earth, but there's certainly no reason it should happen in Mordor on the steppes of Mount Doom. It's perfectly possible that an auto-kill spell, the likes of which are not seen in LOTR, would poof Sauron to his vapory form (assuming he came to battle in physical form). Even if not, Sauron can still be stabbed and cut. A hailstorm of animated blades isn't going to be good for him.

Eita - I know it's not permadeath, but killing Sauron ends the war. You don't have to win 'history'. No one does that. Also, the Flashlight is a running joke. I'm sure it's very impressive.

If killing Sauron ends the war, then killing Voldemort ends the war, too; the Horcruxes are more or less useless.

The battle is assumed to be happening in Middle-Earth because Voldemort has no home location and no power base. If he did, it would be a huge disadvantage, because then he would have fixed points to defend, which and that suddenly means most of his tactics are much less useful.

As for coming face-to-face with Sauron... Sauron doesn't usually enter battle himself until he's sure he would win. He would watch battles from afar via palantir, using his most powerful (and likewise non-permanently killable) minions. He prefers exerting his will from afar.

Essentially, if you're going to fight him in person, you're doing it in Mordor, where his will is an almost physical presence. Even when they were about to die at the Black Gate, Gandalf couldn't do anything but try to survive with his sword.

[Ditto]

Killing Voldemort once would obviously be fair if killing Sauron once is enough. I wouldn't pretend otherwise.

The Nine rings are brought directly under Sauron's power via the power of the one Ring. Without the Ring, Sauron cannot corrupt its bearer. The Nine are already beholden to Sauron, and do not need constant supervision. If Voldemort got one of the Nine and Sauron doesn't have the Ring... then Voldemort has one of the Nine. That's all. Also, if Voldemort can't learn anything about it, then Sauron can't find it either. A problem for both sides. Except that we don't really know what the Ring does for Sauron besides make him corporeal, and in that case he can be stabded lots. I'm fine with killing him other ways. Also, if he wants to fight, then he'll have to come to the random neutral plain of battle just like everyone else - why would Mordor be assumed to be viable?

"Don't get shot and burn everything" is hardly an elaborately-planned battle strategy, and well-suited to the situation. Sauron's is in need of elaborate planning, really, since he has the hurdle of catching teleporters to cross before he determines how he'd best like to kill them.

I don't think it's absurd to say wizards can't use elf magic and vice versa. Elf magic isn't the same as Sauron's magic, correct? Wizard magic is inborn. Doesn't matter what kind of power Sauron has, it's not wizard magic. I'm sure that whatever it is he can do is impressive in it's own way, but he won't be apparating any time soon.

About being qualified to use the Ring: Voldemort is the most powerful person in the universe, cannot die (in exactly the same way Sauron can't die, that is), and has the strongest bloodline left in the wizarding world. That's 2.5 out of 3 items he has up on Aragorn, who's looking rather weak with nothing but an impressive bloodline. It's not about if you're a human or not, it's the power you have within you to magnify. It so happens that HP wizards are pretty powerful.

[LordVader]

Voldemort is not the most powerful person in the universe.

Also, Aragorn didn't use the Ring, he used a palantir, correct? Aragorn wouldn't be able to use the Ring.

[Eita]

About being qualified to use the Ring: Voldemort is the most powerful person in the universe, cannot die (in exactly the same way Sauron can't die, that is), and has the strongest bloodline left in the wizarding world. That's 2.5 out of 3 items he has up on Aragorn, who's looking rather weak with nothing but an impressive bloodline. It's not about if you're a human or not, it's the power you have within you to magnify. It so happens that HP wizards are pretty powerful.

Too lazy to deal with everything else, but I will deal with this.

Oh yes.

The most powerful blood-line. A bunch of inbred hicks. Notice that his mother used a potion forcing his father to love her in order to conceive Voldy.

That a powerful blood-line does not make.

Being pureblood does NOTHING for you besides some extra money.

[Setra]

Voldemort is the most powerful person in the universe

HAHAHAHA- Sorry

If he's so powerful than how did Harry beat him?

[DomaDoma]

Sort of like how the most powerful wizard of all time dying to a snot-nosed kid because he overlooks the power of "love" is disappointing? I mean, come on. That's gotta be the biggest deus ex I've ever seen. "Love"? Yeah, right.

Does anyone know what deus ex machina means any more? Because it doesn't mean "deeply ingrained theme and powerful force starting with the basic premise".

And the power of love in question is the truest and strongest I have ever seen. "The Forest Again" isn't exactly Sailor Moon, you know.

[Executor]

Voldemort is NOT the most powerful person in the universe. Not even in the Potterverse. Because i'm sure a thermonuclear detonation would take him out, just like any other man. He was beaten by a half-trained 17 year old with the power of love for God's sake. Whereas Sauron actually had an enormous chance of winning his War. It was pure, unforseeable twist of fate that caused his downfall. No one can destroy the Ring, not even one as pure and good-hearted as Frodo Baggins. Voldemort cannot destroy the ring, but given his pride would try to use it. The Will of the Ring, and the Ring has a complex will of it's own, this is proven, would manipulate Voldemort into thinking victory is inevitable. And then it would abandon Voldemort when the moment was right, just as it abandoned Isildur and Gollum.

Also deus ex machina means "God out of a Machine". In modern terms the deus ex machina has also come to describe a being, object or event that suddenly appears and solves a seemingly insoluble difficulty, where the author has "painted the characters into a corner" that they can't easily be extricated from (e.g. the cavalry unexpectedly coming to the rescue, or James Bond using a gadget that just so happens to be perfectly suited to the needs of the situation). Harry's love shield in Philosopher's Stone is one such Deus Ex Machina

Let's just think about it in mathematical terms.
Sauron = God
Voldemort = Man
God > Man

[DomaDoma]

Also deus ex machina means "God out of a Machine". In modern terms the deus ex machina has also come to describe a being, object or event that suddenly appears and solves a seemingly insoluble difficulty, where the author has "painted the characters into a corner" that they can't easily be extricated from (e.g. the cavalry unexpectedly coming to the rescue, or James Bond using a gadget that just so happens to be perfectly suited to the needs of the situation). Harry's love shield in Philosopher's Stone is one such Deus Ex Machina

If Philosopher's Stone were a stand-alone book, that would be a valid argument. But as it is, Lily's sacrifice is an integral part of the premise that serves to define the tone and plot in a big way.

[LordVader]

Does anyone know what deus ex machina means any more? Because it doesn't mean "deeply ingrained theme and powerful force starting with the basic premise".

And the power of love in question is the truest and strongest I have ever seen. "The Forest Again" isn't exactly Sailor Moon, you know.

Well, around here it's commonly used to express a force that appears out of nowhere to miraculously solve a problem in a completely unbelievable way. At least, that's what I thought. And a "love shield" appearing out of nowhere seems like that to me. Why didn't the sons of that old woman Voldie kills in the seventh novel get a love shield, because she sacrificed herself for them? Why don't Muggles get it? Why is Harry so special?

[DomaDoma]

I don't know how you missed this one, let alone thought the power of love came out of nowhere, but Voldemort gave Lily a choice to save herself. He... doesn't generally do that.

[Rowanomicon]

Killing Voldemort once would obviously be fair if killing Sauron once is enough. I wouldn't pretend otherwise.

I really don't agree with this. If we start effectively changing the powers that these guys have then we are no longer arguing Sauron vs. Voldemort. One must destroy the the horcruxes to totally kill Voldy and one must destroy The Ring to...well, kinda kill Sauron.
The point is they both have the ability to come back after suffering minor defeats. Why should we not count this in a fight between the two of them?

Also, if Voldemort can't learn anything about it, then Sauron can't find it either.

Of all the incorrect things you've said recently this bugged me the most. If both have both have access to the rest of both worlds the Sauron can recruit muggles and Voldy can study The Ring (this is hypothetical as he'd still have to a) figure out he needs to study The Ring, b) find some information on The Ring which is very hard to come by except form very protected sources, and c) actually take the time to do said studying). If the rest of both world is not available to either of them then Voldy has no way to gain ringlore except for taking it by force, which he's hardly capable (and he still needs to figure out that he needs ringlore in the first place). This, however, does not mean that Sauron cannot find The Ring. That logic is so utterly broken that I don't even know where to dispute it. It's not like a broken train-track that lacks a piece and continues on later; it's like a train-track that stops, lacks a piece, then continues on as a highway.
I repeat: WTF?
Also, to more clearly state one of my above points: why do we assume that Voldy knows that he wants to study The Ring in the first place?

Also, if he wants to fight, then he'll have to come to the random neutral plain of battle just like everyone else - why would Mordor be assumed to be viable?

I don't know if there's some unwritten vs thread rule that all combat must be on neutral ground, but, as I said before, Sauron has no real reason to either meet Voldy's forces on a big open battle field or go openly hunting for Voldy to confront him on his own terms. Sauron will make this fight on his terms. He doesn't really need to, but he can, so he will.

"Don't get shot and burn everything" is hardly an elaborately-planned battle strategy, and well-suited to the situation. Sauron's is in need of elaborate planning, really, since he has the hurdle of catching teleporters to cross before he determines how he'd best like to kill them.

It's OK that Sauron needs a plan because (unlike Voldy) he is capable of setting up and executing brilliant and elaborate plans. Also, go ahead and burn everything. There's no way that Sauron, after becoming aware of HP magic, would simply send his troops out to get killed until he had no one left then say "Oops, now I'll come out all by myself and vulnerable and wait for you to try all your magic until you find something that works on me."
Yes, Voldemort could win if Sauron could not think, but even then it'd be a stretch.

I don't think it's absurd to say wizards can't use elf magic and vice versa. Elf magic isn't the same as Sauron's magic, correct? Wizard magic is inborn. Doesn't matter what kind of power Sauron has, it's not wizard magic. I'm sure that whatever it is he can do is impressive in it's own way, but he won't be apparating any time soon.

Until he gets some Death Eaters on his side, which will be rather quickly.

About being qualified to use the Ring: Voldemort is the most powerful person in the universe, cannot die (in exactly the same way Sauron can't die, that is), and has the strongest bloodline left in the wizarding world. That's 2.5 out of 3 items he has up on Aragorn, who's looking rather weak with nothing but an impressive bloodline. It's not about if you're a human or not, it's the power you have within you to magnify. It so happens that HP wizards are pretty powerful.

Well, we've already established that Voldy is, in fact, not the most powerful in his universe. I'd request that you put the claim that he is in a spoiler in your sig so that we can choose whether we want to read this non-fact ad infinitum.
The way that Voldemort Cannot die is quite different than the way that Sauron cannot die in that Sauron cannot die and Voldemort can.
Yes, Sauron can be rendered effectively powerless by destroying The Ring (which Voldemort cannot do), but even that does not fully destroy him. I'm not arguing that he could keep fighting after the Ring was destroyed; I'm merely illustrating the difference between cannot-die and hard-to-kill.
Yes, he has a bloodline that can be traced back to a powerful wizard. inbred racists just don't have the same luster as...well anything really.
This reduces his score (gosh, I feel silly) to 0.5.

Finally I'd just like to say that Sauron is the kind of villain that you don't stat out because you cannot effectively defeat him. Voldy, in contrast, is merely a high level opponent.

[LordVader]

I don't know how you missed this one, let alone thought the power of love came out of nowhere, but Voldemort gave Lily a choice to save herself. He... doesn't generally do that.

Yeah, like he was gonna let her live.

He just wanted to make sure Harry was dead before mopping up.

And you really can't claim that a "love shield" is anything but a Deus Ex Machina. Especially given all the other examples of people dying to try and save their children, and their children not getting a "love shield."

[warty goblin]

Also, if all plot shielding takes to aquire is somebody dying for you, Sauron should be darn near unbeatable- just think about all of those orcs and evil men who have died for him over the millenia.

Yes I know its not the same thing, but still....

[DomaDoma]

Yeah, like he was gonna let her live.

He just wanted to make sure Harry was dead before mopping up.

Seriously, reread. I'm thinking specifically of DH, Chapter Thirty-Three here.

EDIT: And you actually get Voldemort's intent explicitly spelled out in Chapter Seventeen.

[The_Snark]

About being qualified to use the Ring: Voldemort is the most powerful person in the universe, cannot die (in exactly the same way Sauron can't die, that is), and has the strongest bloodline left in the wizarding world. That's 2.5 out of 3 items he has up on Aragorn, who's looking rather weak with nothing but an impressive bloodline. It's not about if you're a human or not, it's the power you have within you to magnify. It so happens that HP wizards are pretty powerful.

Aragorn is descended from Beren and Luthien, who was daughter of one of the Maiar. A powerful one, at that. I think you're overestimating his bloodline

In any case, ignoring the Ring: I still haven't seen any explanation for how Voldemort stands up to Sauron's dominating/controlling influence. Examine the Black Gate: Here we have Gandalf, most powerful force for good in all Middle-Earth... and even though their army is being overwhelmed on every side by orcs, he does nothing except try to survive. Sauron's will was fixed on that battle, spurring his legions on and keeping any powers for Good from interfering, and he was miles away watching from Barad-Dur.

Sauron is in many respects like the Ring: Nobody can match it directly in a contest of wills. And that's what any direct encounter with Sauron would turn into.

[EvilElitest]

Actually, I believe the term was "sorcerous fire," pretty unambiguous as far as I am concerned. Although Saruman did have a large technological advantage, I really don't see him being that far ahead of the armies of Rohan that they would have no idea what he was doing or he would have just blown up the Ents.

Also, I had thought that Caradhras being described as a malevolent being was just personification of a dangerous mountain.

Well we can't say, but we do know that Saruman's did have advantaged tech, because Tolkien wanted him to repersent the evils of modern industry
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