Sauron vs Voldemort

[Ditto]

In Harry Potter, bloodlines really don't matter. That said, people stress their importance to dealing with the Ring. If you want credentials, he's the last direct descendent of one of the most powerful wizards of legend. Aragorn did not use the Ring, but I'm told here that he would be capable of doing so.

Voldemort (slash-Dumbledore) isn't the most powerful person in the Potterverse? Who tops him? And the fact that he was beaten doesn't mean he's not the most powerful. First of all, it was painfully plot-related. Even were it not, mighty folks still have their downfalls now and again. Most-powerful and Lost-power are not mutually exclusive ideas.

Love is apparently the niftiest form of magic, not a pansy plot device (in-universe that is. Meta-analysis? Pansy plot device. ). If Voldemort was going to be defeated by anything, love is a logical choice... (Muggles don't get love shields because they don't have magic, period. Orcs don't grant love shield because they don't love Sauron... duh? ) The fact that Voldemort does not have a nuclear bomb does not mean he is individually (or as a leader, even) less powerful than the fellow with his finger on the red button. In any event, wizards can still apparate as a reaction, if you *really* want to go down that road. Sauron could be killed (not permakilled, blah blah) by a nuke, too. He was killed(-ish) with a sword, no?

People talk about the Ring not working for Voldemort like they have any idea what would happen. There is no example of anyone besides Sauron using the Ring offensively, despite evidence that it could be done. Please don't say it's 'inevitable' that the Ring will leap off of Voldemort's finger after convincing him ("Without a doubt!") to attack. The Ring did not abandon Isildur when he was weilding it - he was about to destroy it. Totally different scenario. Voldemort isn't destroying the Ring at all.

Sauron = Demigod
Demigods = Killable
Voldemort = Kills things
Therefore, there is a least a debate to be had. Please don't trot out the "He's a demigod, and can't lose to anyone!" Because he did.

The Snark: Gandalf et al. suggested that they *can* beat the Ring in a test of wills and master its power. They'll get all evil-y, but they're still controlling it, no?

Rowan: I'm not arguing what you think I am on point two, calm down! I'm suggesting they do *not* have access to their respective worlds at all - each team is battling with *only* their team, and nothing more beyond that. The reason Sauron could not find the Ring is that it's not in his arsenal as of the start-time for this battle (LOTR era). It could also be said that you couldn't find Voldemort's horcruxes, I suppose... except that he knows where they are, even if they don't have any 'offensive' value.
-I'm sticking with the 'neutral ground' idea, because it's hard to reconcile Scotland being next to Mordor and it's been the case in other thread's I've glanced at. Having a familiar home ground to play with is a huge advantage, and it's easier to remove as many factors from the debate as possible.
--(also as referenced above) Gandalf's granted power is inspiration and destiny and such, is it not? What was he supposed to be doing, calling down lightning to smash the gates? If Gandalf was *ever* supposed to lend mighty direct offense, then he failed to present time and again.
-So long as he moves his units around in army-shaped groups, they're in for a bit of trouble with the superfire. ::shrug::
-Again, who is more powerful in HP? I'm sorry if it's getting repetitive, but I think it logical that the most powerful force in a given universe would be the one who could deal with artefacts across genres.
-High-level characters are exactly the ones to be fighting demigods in D&D...
-Destroying the Ring doesn't destroy Sauron? You have to go and kill him properly again? I didn't know that. Destroying a horcrux doesn't hurt Voldemort at all.

[Executor]

A. Merlin is supposedly the most powerful wizard ever in the Potterverse

B. As Sauron's power grew, Gandalf's waned. He couldn't really do a lot of epic stuff so close to Mordor and Sauron's heart of power by the time of the Battle of the Black Gates

C. As another user said: Inbred Hicks does not a proud bloodline make

D. Gandalf has other powers. He shows them a lot more in The Hobbit, while Sauron is still in hiding. They include.
-Throwing Fireballs
-Invisibility
-Turning night to day
Amongst other things. In the LOTR era, he also survives and kills a balrog, creating some form of shield that blocked the flaming sword and shattering the bridge by smacking it with his staff. He also has extensive magical control of fire, the best example of which would be his impossible fireworks.

[Helgraf]

D. Gandalf has other powers. He shows them a lot more in The Hobbit, while Sauron is still in hiding. They include.
-Throwing Fireballs
-Invisibility
-Turning night to day

... Point of order on this last one - he did not turn night into day ; he kept the trolls arguing until day arrived. Suggestion magic and ventriloquism perhaps, but no "making the sun rise", regardless of how the movie makes it seem.

[Eita]

In Harry Potter, bloodlines really don't matter. That said, people stress their importance to dealing with the Ring. If you want credentials, he's the last direct descendent of one of the most powerful wizards of legend. Aragorn did not use the Ring, but I'm told here that he would be capable of doing so.

Voldemort (slash-Dumbledore) isn't the most powerful person in the Potterverse? Who tops him? And the fact that he was beaten doesn't mean he's not the most powerful. First of all, it was painfully plot-related. Even were it not, mighty folks still have their downfalls now and again. Most-powerful and Lost-power are not mutually exclusive ideas.

Love is apparently the niftiest form of magic, not a pansy plot device (in-universe that is. Meta-analysis? Pansy plot device. ). If Voldemort was going to be defeated by anything, love is a logical choice... (Muggles don't get love shields because they don't have magic, period. Orcs don't grant love shield because they don't love Sauron... duh? ) The fact that Voldemort does not have a nuclear bomb does not mean he is individually (or as a leader, even) less powerful than the fellow with his finger on the red button. In any event, wizards can still apparate as a reaction, if you *really* want to go down that road. Sauron could be killed (not permakilled, blah blah) by a nuke, too. He was killed(-ish) with a sword, no?

People talk about the Ring not working for Voldemort like they have any idea what would happen. There is no example of anyone besides Sauron using the Ring offensively, despite evidence that it could be done. Please don't say it's 'inevitable' that the Ring will leap off of Voldemort's finger after convincing him ("Without a doubt!") to attack. The Ring did not abandon Isildur when he was weilding it - he was about to destroy it. Totally different scenario. Voldemort isn't destroying the Ring at all.

Sauron = Demigod
Demigods = Killable
Voldemort = Kills things
Therefore, there is a least a debate to be had. Please don't trot out the "He's a demigod, and can't lose to anyone!" Because he did.

The Snark: Gandalf et al. suggested that they *can* beat the Ring in a test of wills and master its power. They'll get all evil-y, but they're still controlling it, no?

Rowan: I'm not arguing what you think I am on point two, calm down! I'm suggesting they do *not* have access to their respective worlds at all - each team is battling with *only* their team, and nothing more beyond that. The reason Sauron could not find the Ring is that it's not in his arsenal as of the start-time for this battle (LOTR era). It could also be said that you couldn't find Voldemort's horcruxes, I suppose... except that he knows where they are, even if they don't have any 'offensive' value.
-I'm sticking with the 'neutral ground' idea, because it's hard to reconcile Scotland being next to Mordor and it's been the case in other thread's I've glanced at. Having a familiar home ground to play with is a huge advantage, and it's easier to remove as many factors from the debate as possible.
--(also as referenced above) Gandalf's granted power is inspiration and destiny and such, is it not? What was he supposed to be doing, calling down lightning to smash the gates? If Gandalf was *ever* supposed to lend mighty direct offense, then he failed to present time and again.
-So long as he moves his units around in army-shaped groups, they're in for a bit of trouble with the superfire. ::shrug::
-Again, who is more powerful in HP? I'm sorry if it's getting repetitive, but I think it logical that the most powerful force in a given universe would be the one who could deal with artefacts across genres.
-High-level characters are exactly the ones to be fighting demigods in D&D...
-Destroying the Ring doesn't destroy Sauron? You have to go and kill him properly again? I didn't know that. Destroying a horcrux doesn't hurt Voldemort at all.

Okay. WTF? If bloodlines don't matter, then why bring it up at all? Also, inbreeding, even if it inbreeding between the kids of a Founder actually ruins the blood causing all sorts of problems.

Merlin's the most powerful.

Wizards in HP don't know what a gun is. By the time they see the bomb and realize that it means their death, they'd at the very least get a lethal dose of radiation. Sauron was killed(ish) by separating the Ring from his hand. Any weapon could have done it.

Okay. No. Just no. Because Voldemort didn't want to destroy the Ring means he won't be corrupted by it? That's stupider then the "THE WEAPONS WEREN'T AT FULL POWER!" argument.

Technically, he's immortal. However, his mortal body can be shed with the leaving of the Ring. Kill means to end. Sauron always exists. Even with the Ring gone, he still prowls the night.

Don't use Gandalf saying that to prove Voldy could overpower the Ring. Gandalf is to Voldemort as the sun is to a candle.

Well if they're only battling with their team, how did Voldy somehow learn Ringlore and find the Ring?
Distance means nothing. They don't need to be next to each other. You're just trying to give Voldemort as big of a chance as he can.
As Executor said, as Sauron waxed, Gandalf waned. At the Black Gate, Sauron's will was such that he could only use his sword.
Yeah... He wouldn't do that more then once.
In that case, Sauron knows HP magic. Oh, and Voldemort isn't the strongest.
No. Epic level characters are.
If the Ring is destroyed, Sauron is reduced to much the same state as Voldemort when killed. Just a wisp floating in the wind.

[Tyrant]

Killing Voldemort once would obviously be fair if killing Sauron once is enough. I wouldn't pretend otherwise.

That's important as it completely negates the horcruxes. And also means that for all intents and purposes, Voldy is mortal.

Also, if Voldemort can't learn anything about it, then Sauron can't find it either. A problem for both sides.

I really don't see a relation between those two situations. There are only so many ways Voldy could find out about the ring. By your own conditions, only one of those (Sauron) remains available and he won't be talking. Voldy in all likelyhood won't even be looking for the ring. Should he find it or find out some tiny tid bit about it, he starts down the road to being controlled by the ring. For him, it's going to be a pretty short trip.

Except that we don't really know what the Ring does for Sauron besides make him corporeal, and in that case he can be stabded lots. I'm fine with killing him other ways.

I am under the impression the no corporeal form thing is an invention of the movie. Will stabbing him even work? Also, what other ways? I would imagine there are only so many viable options to kill a demigod.

Also, if he wants to fight, then he'll have to come to the random neutral plain of battle just like everyone else - why would Mordor be assumed to be viable?

So, if we are on random nuetral plain, are you still sure apparating is such a good idea? To leave is to admit defeat, so hit and run doesn't work. They will have to deal with the massed legions along with the 9.

"Don't get shot and burn everything" is hardly an elaborately-planned battle strategy, and well-suited to the situation.

Almost all strategy breaks down to: "get that thing", "destroy that thing", or "kill them before they kill you". I assume you can see how the moment you involve any factors the plan becomes considerably more complicated. Your attack strategy requires them to survey the field (hard to do on a level field with thousands of arrows flying at you), formulate an attack strategy, and then impliment it. Their strategy would need to take into account the fact they would have to be flying (or they're dead the moment they appear), where exactly they would pop out of, and exactly what they were going to do the moment they materialized. Unless Voldy picked up the battle meditation force power somewhere, all of that takes time. Time to plan it and time to do it. In that time, a wall of arrows, rocks, and bolts is speeding to kill them. And the inumerable legions are advancing with the Nazgul leading the charge. Team Sauron has the advantage that Sauron guides the troops and can do these things pretty quickly.

Sauron's is in need of elaborate planning, really, since he has the hurdle of catching teleporters to cross before he determines how he'd best like to kill them.

Teleporters that are confined to the battlefield. All it takes is getting by a Nazgul and their concentration is shot. The moment that happens, they're a pincushion. Also, they would have to continually be apparating to avoid the arrows. How are they going to make sure they don't materialize where another was moments ago and where arrows are now speeding towards? I just don't think teleporting in a confined space with arrows flying everywhere is as great a tactic as you think it is.

I don't think it's absurd to say wizards can't use elf magic and vice versa. Elf magic isn't the same as Sauron's magic, correct? Wizard magic is inborn. Doesn't matter what kind of power Sauron has, it's not wizard magic. I'm sure that whatever it is he can do is impressive in it's own way, but he won't be apparating any time soon.

Then one could just as easily say that since Voldy doesn't have the specific bloodlines (or origins) mentioned, he has no shot of controlling the ring. One could also argue that HP magic might have absolutely no effect at all on Sauron and Co by virtue of them being from a different reality where rules work differently. Even if you assume that, Voldy and company can still be killed by the weapons of Middle Earth as a stab wound is a stab wound no matter how you look at it. For Vs type scenarios, you have to assume some crossover. When you do, it has to work both ways or you may as well admit that one side can't win a straight up fight.

About being qualified to use the Ring: Voldemort is the most powerful person in the universe, cannot die (in exactly the same way Sauron can't die, that is), and has the strongest bloodline left in the wizarding world.

The way in which he can't die isn't the same. He can die. He will die. He is a mortal who is stalling death. Sauron is eternal. Their respective means of long life are simply not in the same league. It's like a vampire and a god. The god started as a god and will be a god forever. It was never mortal. A vampire is immortal, but it many ways it is still essentially a mortal. It thinks and acts the same way as a mortal. It is merely cheating death. Sauron doesn't think and act like a mortal. Sauron isn't, never was, and never will be mortal. That is the difference that allows people like Gandalf and the few others to believe they can wield the ring. They have the same type of power that Sauron has. Voldy doesn't.

It's not about if you're a human or not, it's the power you have within you to magnify. It so happens that HP wizards are pretty powerful.

From a HP standpoint they are. From the standpoint of the ring, I doubt it. It will know Voldy for what he is, a mortal man that can (and will) be corrupted to it's will. It all has to do with what the ring is after. Is it after a wizard who can do some damage with his spells, or would it prefer an eternal creature of pure evil with the desire and will to dominate all life on the planet? Given who created it and why he created it, I am guessing it will go with Sauron.

[Rowanomicon]

OK, I just watched an old Even Stevens bit from the Daily show so i have to do this:

SAUROOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOON!!!

[Ditto]

Oh, well if he has *fireworks* then...

Again - I know bloodlines don't matter in HP, but it's exactly the same as Aragorn. He is a direct descendent of dozens of generations of Slytherin's progeny. It's as far removed and diluted as Aragorn. Y'all are saying bloodlines are key in LOTR; if it's necessary, Voldemort has what passes for solid geneology. I don't particularly care, either. (Merlin's the most powerful, sure, but the founders were all very impressive, top-ten folks. S'good enough for me.)

I have repeatedly agreed that if we restrict this to teams-only and neutral-battlefiend, then Voldemort cannot gain access to the Ring or ringlore. Neither can Sauron, of course. (The Ring and the horcruxes, both out there in nowhere land, ensure that both Voldemort and Sauron are not permadead, for what it's worth.) A neutral battlefield does not necessarily mean 'a big flat area with nebulous white walls stretching out to infinity.' It means normal terrain for (as close as can be approximated) both sides, but granting no bonuses specific to home turf. Sorry if this isn't clear from my statements, but I'm going with what I've seen in other vs. threads and what i think makes sense for an 'arena' battle on a world war scale.

Apparating around and through an army isn't retreating and is still devastingly effective. If you think they're going to be hit by spraying arrows randomly around the entire battlefield, then you're going to kill your own soldiers left and right. Also, there's no reason to assume to battlefield extends only 5 feet beyond the nearest soldier. Strategic distance in a world war arena would suggest at *least* distance enough to charge. That's plenty of a buffer. Especially because in a confined area, you couldn't escape from Fiendfyre effectively and the wizards can just wrap themselves in a steel bubble for a while. Holing up is easy when you don't have to shoot out of it.

Sauron is reduced to a wisp when he's *separated* from the Ring. If the Ring is destroyed, he's dead. If neither side can access the horcruxes or the Ring, and you won't accept killing EVERYONE on a team as a decisive win, then I don't know what to tell you. Voldemort and Sauron can both be killed just like anyone else, even if they come back.

What you think of their relative power levels aside, I'm using Gandalf's statements to prove that controlling the ring is possible, that's all. Some were saying that only Sauron could do it.

He would only move his army in a large army-shaped unit once...? I understand he's not stupid, but moving in a large group is sort of what armies do.

It's *implied* he was corporeal in the books. We know he was incorporeal at some point prior. During the last War, he was cut by a sword. Therefore, it stands to reason that he... could be cut be by a sword again. And more. If he is in fact corporeal, then it's that much easier to kill(-ish) him.

Voldemort and Sauron cannot die of old age. That's the definition of immortal, is it not? They can both be killed. They're immortal, but not invulnerable. What's the big disconnect? I understand Sauron thinks on a god-level (whatever that means), but it doesn't change the fact that Voldemort is immortal now. Before someone says, "But destroy his horcruxes (which you can't do in this battle), and he's moretal again!", gods can get demoted and become mortal too. It happens all the time in mythology. If Morgoth or whoever got pissed, don't you think they'd bust him down a divine rank instead of killing him? Living as a common mortal is a way better punishment. Or sending them to Michigan.

[psiryu]

I'm trying to remember which one got killed by an angsty teenage boy and failed to kill a baby.

Ahh yes but if you want to but it that way, which one was defeated by a wave, a wolf, a guy with a broken sword and two munchkins.

I can't see old Voldy beating Sauron, yes Voldy could take out Saurons Orc forces but the Nazgul and Sauron him self are a whole different league.

I wander how the Nazguls' scream would affect death eaters.

[EvilElitest]

Wow, big thread, what a massive vs. thread, i've never seen one so huge

so um yeah, who would win, link or seph?
from,
EE

[WalkingTarget]

Voldemort has what passes for solid geneology.

Well, inbreeding has a tendency to exacerbate genetic defects over time. Sure he has the right ancestors or whatever, but most literary conventions I'm aware of use a history of inbreeding as an indication of declining quality. (Feel free to cite counter-examples from other sources if I'm forgetting something).

A neutral battlefield does not necessarily mean 'a big flat area with nebulous white walls stretching out to infinity.' It means normal terrain for (as close as can be approximated) both sides, but granting no bonuses specific to home turf. Sorry if this isn't clear from my statements, but I'm going with what I've seen in other vs. threads and what i think makes sense for an 'arena' battle on a world war scale.

Ok, so we're not in Mordor. Of course, there's nothing extremely special about Mordor other than it was a defensible location that Sauron and his minions occupied for a very long time. Florida could be the new "black land" if Sauron hung out there for a while (look how spooky Mirkwood got once he set up shop in Dol Guldur, and that has large Elvish communities on two sides). Losing access to Mount Doom and Barad-dur are about all having this on neutral territory would do to Sauron.

Sauron is reduced to a wisp when he's *separated* from the Ring.

How many times do I have to say this? No he isn't. I point out that I recognize that you've stated before (and therefore realize) that Sauron was defeated in melee combat while coporeal. That is what made him a wisp, being non-corporeal is a default state for him. The body is just something he put on because it's easier to interact with (i.e. dominate) the other inhabitants of Middle-earth when he has a body (that and he has to have a finger to put the ring on, obviously). It just annoys me that people keep repeating things that are incorrect, especially if they've shown that they know otherwise.

If the Ring is destroyed, he's dead. If neither side can access the horcruxes or the Ring, and you won't accept killing EVERYONE on a team as a decisive win, then I don't know what to tell you. Voldemort and Sauron can both be killed just like anyone else, even if they come back.

Agreed. Your opposition brings up the point that Sauron is probably capable of coercing/seducing with power/dominating members of Voldemort's team, giving him "killing everyone on a team" abilities like what V has in addition to what he already had on his own.

What you think of their relative power levels aside, I'm using Gandalf's statements to prove that controlling the ring is possible, that's all. Some were saying that only Sauron could do it.

"Controlling" is probably the wrong word. "Utilizing" would fit better, I think.

It's *implied* he was corporeal in the books. We know he was incorporeal at some point prior. During the last War, he was cut by a sword. Therefore, it stands to reason that he... could be cut be by a sword again. And more. If he is in fact corporeal, then it's that much easier to kill(-ish) him.

In a letter, Tolkien described Sauron's form in the Third Age as "that of a man of more than human stature, but not gigantic," and Gollum describes a "black hand" in the books. The incorporeal part is the default state when a body "dies." The body is a garment, Sauron is just limited to one outfit. Yes, he was defeated in melee combat by two of the greatest warriors of the age who died in the process. You have stated before that wizards aren't good at melee. We return to "does HP magic have an effect on ME gods" (demi-god gives the wrong meaning, Sauron is not the One who created all and isn't on the power scale of the dozen or so Valar, but he's just as devine as them) which isn't something we can say definitively.

Voldemort and Sauron cannot die of old age. That's the definition of immortal, is it not?

Undying, not subject to death (in-not, mortis-to die). From what I've read here, Voldemort has cheated death through magic. Sauron isn't subject to death in the first place.

They can both be killed. They're immortal, but not invulnerable. What's the big disconnect? I understand Sauron thinks on a god-level (whatever that means), but it doesn't change the fact that Voldemort is immortal now. Before someone says, "But destroy his horcruxes (which you can't do in this battle), and he's moretal again!"

I would posit that Voldemort's body is much more crunchable that Sauron's. You said you don't want to consider actual, final defeat so we're back to "does HP magic have an effect on ME gods" for the purposes of a straight up fight. If we're negating the possibilities of "destroy the ring" to make Sauron too weak to be effective and "destroy the horcruxes" to make it possible for Voldemort to finally die, it would come down to "who can more easily destroy the other's current body." Sauron has "died" when the continent he was on was destroyed by God (Eru, the One) and in melee combat by two heroes who died in the process. Again, you've stated previously that HP wizards suck at melee. This was stated to be Saruon vs. Voldemort, not Sauron's armies vs Voldemort's buddies. HP wizards vs ME orcs and trolls is easy, HP wizards vs ME gods is something else entirely.

, gods can get demoted and become mortal too. It happens all the time in mythology.

When? The Norse gods have killablity built in (i.e. Ragnarök) I'm having trouble thinking of any "demotion" in mythology. The Greeks elevated heroes to god-status occasionally, but not the other way around. This is an honest question, if you know any examples I would like to know.

If Morgoth or whoever got pissed, don't you think they'd bust him down a divine rank instead of killing him? Living as a common mortal is a way better punishment. Or sending them to Michigan.

Once again, being "immortal" means that you are incapable of dieing, it isn't an option. The Valar couldn't kill Morgoth, so they tossed him outside of the universe (where they all started anyway) to where the One is. They essentially sent him to to the principal's office for the rest of eternity.

[Greebo]

And like Morgoth, Sauron can not be utterly destroyed. The destruction of the ring reduced Sauron's power to that of a malignant spirit and nothing more, but it did not *kill* him.

While Voldemort, sans horcruxes, died.

[EvilElitest]

Ok, so we're not in Mordor. Of course, there's nothing extremely special about Mordor other than it was a defensible location that Sauron and his minions occupied for a very long time. Florida could be the new "black land" if Sauron hung out there for a while (look how spooky Mirkwood got once he set up shop in Dol Guldur, and that has large Elvish communities on two sides). Losing access to Mount Doom and Barad-dur are about all having this on neutral territory would do to Sauron

If you think about it, morder is really densive. The orcs only need the smallest amount of food and quiality is not an issue (they eat their own dead) while hte other guys need substancal food. It is alway night their, their is no safe haven (IE, place will good clean food and water) and it has massive mountains protecting it
from,
EE

[WalkingTarget]

If you think about it, morder is really densive. The orcs only need the smallest amount of food and quiality is not an issue (they eat their own dead) while hte other guys need substancal food. It is alway night their, their is no safe haven (IE, place will good clean food and water) and it has massive mountains protecting it
from,
EE

Oh, of course. Mordor was a great strategic headquarters. But there isn't anything magical/evil about the land itself, only what had been done to it by Sauron.

[Greebo]

If you think about it, morder is really defensive. The orcs only need the smallest amount of food and quality is not an issue (they eat their own dead) while hte other guys need substantial food. It is alway night their, their is no safe haven (IE, place will good clean food and water) and it has massive mountains protecting it
from,
EE

Actually, Frodo and Sam only saw the northern lands of Mordor which were barren and desolate.

The southern lands of Mordor were populated with many food producing villages to supply the armies.

[Ditto]

I'll have to research on demoted heroes. I thought Hercules was at one point, and Arwen lost her elfiness by marrying Aragorn. (Are elves immortal, or simply extremely long-lived?) Sauron isn't a demigod anymore, he's a lesser god? You'd think someone would have mentioned that by now.

I've also not heard the 'bodies are like clothes' line before. That's definitely interesting. I was under the impression that everyone in Middle Earth, even gods, had a physical form. (Middle Earth itself has a body with Tom Bombadil) My thinking was that it was a big drawback of the invested-in-Ring trick, and the poofiness had to do with the fact that he was separated from his Ring. Incorporeality as the default is something different I'll have to consider (and definitely not what other folks here have been suggesting). Also, this is the first I've heard of Sauron being completely de facto not only unpermakillable while the ring existed, but un-die-able. That was my understanding of what wrecking the Ring did.

Wizards are not good at melee, but the swords they animate and trees they animate and animals they conjure and creatures they dominate are useful enough for that. Also, they don't quail in fear from the big scary mace man. Voldemort was killed by magic; Sauron was killed physically. Intimidating presence and melee skill he has going for him, but we don't know how tough Sauron's hide actually is. Voldemort hasn't been stabbed ever, and we know for a fact that he's wizard-tough. Sure, he's be in trouble with a sword through his gut, but he might get better. Flesh wound and all that. Wizards bend and bruise and break bones, but you never hear of one being skewered to death so the precise extent of their resiliency is unknown.

I've granted that Voldemort tempting Death Eaters is a very real possibility, and converted teammates obviously don't count against your must-be-killed-to-win count. Even so, the only person he's ever had a problem dueling is Dumbledore. And/but with the current set-up, that's not really a consideration - Sauron doesn't convince people subtly to act on on greed and inner desires during the course of a battle.

If you can go from mortal -> immortal (like promoted demigods), then Voldemort has accomplished that.

Mordor is special because it's Sauron's home, imbued with his magical dampening field. That's sort of a big deal. He can spread ickiness as he expands, but specifically that area is bad news.

[WalkingTarget]

I'll have to research on demoted heroes. I thought Hercules was at one point, and Arwen lost her elfiness by marrying Aragorn. (Are elves immortal, or simply extremely long-lived?) Sauron isn't a demigod anymore, he's a lesser god? You'd think someone would have mentioned that by now.

Tolkien's elves are "immortal" in the sense that they never get sick or die of old age. If their body "dies" their spirit goes to the undying lands where they are reincarnated. They are bound to the world and endure as long as it does. Human spirits (or souls or whatever) leave the world and nobody but the One knows what happens afterwards. Arwen was of the half-elven line (which is not even close to being a half-elf in D&D). Elrond and his brother Elros were decended from both elves and men and got to make a choice, to be men or elves. Elros chose to be a man and he founded Numenor. Elrond chose to be an elf, and when he leaves Middle-earth, his children get the same choice (i.e. to be elf or man). Arwen chooses a mortal life. Luthien became human and Tuor became an elf through the power of the Valar and the grace of the One, but they are the only exceptions. For the Valar and Maiar in Tolkien, "gods and demi-gods" never really sat well with me, it'd be better to liken them to the Æsir and Vanir from Norse myth. Same thing, only different scale. People find it easier to say "demi-god" than to explain the differences accurately even if it's not accurate (as "demi-god" only means "half-god" which fits Perseus, Theseus, Heracles, and Achilles, but not Sauron).

I've also not heard the 'bodies are like clothes' line before. That's definitely interesting. I was under the impression that everyone in Middle Earth, even gods, had a physical form. (Middle Earth itself has a body - Tom Bombadil!) My thinking was that it was a big drawback of the invested-in-Ring trick, and the poofiness had to do with the fact that he was separated from his Ring. Incorporeality as the default is something different I'll have to consider (and definitely not what other folks here have been suggesting).

Yeah, why the ring is important to Sauron's final defeat is because to create it he put a lot of himself into a wholly material thing. When it is destroyed, so is that portion of his power. This being left out of the discussion (or at least forgotten) has been a slight annoyance to me, but the bodies-as-clothes bit is from the Silmarillion which I realize not everyone has read. Oh, and the Tom Bombadil-as-Middle-earth thought is a common one, but is by no means official, so be wary basing any arguments on it.

Wizards are not good at melee, but the swords they animate and trees they animate and animals they conjure and creatures they dominate are useful enough for that. Also, they don't quail in fear from the big scary mace man. Voldemort was killed by magic; Sauron was killed physically. Intimidating presence and melee skill he has going for him, but we don't know how tough Sauron's hide actually is. Voldemort hasn't been stabbed ever, and we know for a fact that he's wizard-tough. Sure, he's be in trouble with a sword through his gut, but he might get better. Flesh wound and all that. Wizards bend and bruise and break bones, but you never hear of one being skewered to death so the precise extent of their resiliency is unknown.

Voldemort isn't stabbed because the plot of the HP books do not require it and, as has been established, swords aren't their preferred way to fight. Lack of examples is not a proof of impossibility. Also, big scary mace man who is an avatar of evil in the world might be enough to intimidate wizards, we'd have to ask Rowling. Part of this incongruity is due to the writing styles. Rowling was writing for children (and eventually young adults) where, if you had any magic at all, "normal" life was strange and mysterious. Tolkien was writing for adults in a heroic/epic style where a special sword was about as magical as the heroes could expect to get. We don't know how well Voldemort would stand up to a blow from a weapon, but we also don't know how well Sauron holds up to big flashy spells. Neither do we know how well Voldemort could attack Sauron physically or what kind of flashy spells Sauron is capable of. We don't know enough about the interactions of worlds here or the characters to make definitive statements. Based on what I know of Sauron and Voldemort (so far), I lean towards Sauron, but I recognize that that is only my opinion.

I've granted that Voldemort tempting Death Eaters is a very real possibility, and converted teammates obviously don't count against your must-be-killed-to-win count. Even so, the only person he's ever had a problem dueling is Dumbledore. And/but with the current set-up, that's not really a consideration - Sauron doesn't convince people subtly to act on on greed and inner desires during the course of a battle.

Maybe not during a single battle but he definitely corrupts people during the course of a war (at least in a particular sense, his armies may not have marched yet, but I'd say Saruman counts at the least).

If you can go from mortal -> immortal (like promoted demigods), then Voldemort has accomplished that.

He has done so as much as Koschei the Deathless from Russion mythology or Sysiphus (for a while, when he chained Thanatos) did. I would say that this is not the same as, say, Heracles. However, this is probably largely a semantic argument hinging on the definition of "immortal". Either way, I agree that it doesn't really come into play in this scenario.

Mordor is special because it's Sauron's home, imbued with his magical dampening field. That's sort of a big deal. He can spread ickiness as he expands, but specifically that area is bad news.

Not really any evidence of that either way and I was imprecise and I stated my reading as fact when I shouldn't have. It might be bad news because it just is, or it might be bad news since that is where he is right now (or had been for a long time). Nothing in the text is definitive on that point. Dol Guldur in Mirkwood was bad news as well and he was there a considerably shorter period of time.

[EvilElitest]

Actually, Frodo and Sam only saw the northern lands of Mordor which were barren and desolate.

The southern lands of Mordor were populated with many food producing villages to supply the armies.

True, but to get their you had to get past the wasteland i mentioned

Oh, of course. Mordor was a great strategic headquarters. But there isn't anything magical/evil about the land itself, only what had been done to it by Sauron.

Accually, i think in hte simeralian it said morder was like that before Sauron showed up, he just took advantage of that and built his tower. I know that mount doom was around before him
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EE

[WalkingTarget]

Accually, i think in hte simeralian it said morder was like that before Sauron showed up, he just took advantage of that and built his tower. I know that mount doom was around before him
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It was not a nice place beforehand at the least. Mountains acting as a windbreak from 3 directions to cause arid conditions, an active volcano emitting hot ash occasionally, and the largest/only significant body of water being a saltwater lake don't make for happyfunland. Shelob had set up shop before Sauron as well.

I'll check my Silmarillion when I get a chance, but I don't remember any of the inherently magic/malevolent aspects of Mordor preceding Sauron's residence.

[EvilElitest]

Man, this thread is approaching the link vs. seph thread in terms of length
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[Winterwind]

Man, this thread is approaching the link vs. seph thread in terms of length

Which is rather ironic given that most people here seem to agree that Sauron would crush Voldemort.

[Ditto]

I'm not implying Voldemort is swordproof, you're taking me too seriously again. I should stop mixing the silly bits in, hehe. I do take issue with the issue of intended audience affecting the outcome of this debate - it most certainly does *not* matter for whom the series were written. One side or the other may poo-poo the restrictions or laxity of the other, but in the end WYSIWYG. If Voldemort can summon Asmodeus by asking nicely in the book, then that's all there is to it. He has that power. Is it flashy? Sure. Because it's a children's book? Possibly. Does it matter? Nope. He has x or y ability, and it's what has to be contended with. You don't get literary points in a cagematch. LOTR is a vastly superior work of fiction IMO, not that I think HP is crap or just for children or crap written just for children. But it doesn't come into play at all, mechanics-wise.

Tom Bombadil is just a fun factoid (theoryoid, anyway) that I didn't realize until just recently, s'all. As indicated previously, I have not read the Silmarillion. I really don't understand why this thing hasn't been mentioned previously.

[EvilElitest]

Which is rather ironic given that most people here seem to agree that Sauron would crush Voldemort.

well by the first nine pages we alway knew that the link would win, but seph people just wouldn't stop arguing
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[WalkingTarget]

I do take issue with the issue of intended audience affecting the outcome of this debate - it most certainly does *not* matter for whom the series were written. One side or the other may poo-poo the restrictions or laxity of the other, but in the end WYSIWYG.

Oh, I wasn't saying anything about the target audience having an effect on the outcome, only that they result in different styles of writing. This difference is a cause of the difficulty in equating/comparing relative character strengths, nothing more.

[Ditto]

::nods:: When someone mentioned that in the Star Wars vs. Protoss thread, it led to a fun branch. It was said, "But this is exactly how it happens in the game!", and "The game is overpowered, the novels are what counts!" and "The game was made for teenagers with feelings of low testicular fortitude!" (That's still a wonderful phrase.) I pointed out that no one can say X and Y are the power of plot in a vs. thread so long as X and Y are not specifically proscribed 'Destiny' kinds of events. For instance, we observe that at least three out of every four starships in the Federation have a crackpot genius MacGyver engineer, and concurrently that the deflector array is the single most adaptable piece of technology ever invented. It's like firing a Rod of Wonder into the enemy force!

Is it ridiculous to assume everyone is a tech whiz and has a Scotty or Geordi aboard? Probably. But that's exactly what we see, over and over again (and even on incidental starships, not just the Enterprise), so it's only fair to assume everyone has that going for them.[/sidebar]

[EvilElitest]

I love vs. threads
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[EvilElitest]

Wizards are most definitely canon tough. The first wizards playing quidditch hundreds of years ago aren't important enough to merit plot armor, but no one has ever died playing Quidditch.

Muffliato will block hearing a wizard approach, and wizards aren't any smellier than orcs are. If they *are* for some reason, they can just pull out an Odor-not-o spell. Even so... ::poof poof:: Hasn't anyone seen Nightcrawler moving around? You don't need to stand in one place to case a room.

The freaking hobbit did not have more willpower than Voldemort. If he was able to hold on because of his squeaky clean shinyhappy-ness, then that's one thing. But willpower? Most definitely not. In the graveyard vs. Harry, I'm willing to chalk that up to being extremely surprised... and that Harry had the power of looooove on his side. Stupid love.

the reason why a hobbit had more will power was because of the lack of pride, and their general humble mannerism . The more proud you are, the greater the temptation, like Borimer or Saruman
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[Rowanomicon]

well by the first nine pages we alway knew that the link would win, but seph people just wouldn't stop arguing
from,
EE

Funny, it only took us one post to figure out that Sauron would utterly crush Voldemort and Voldemort has absolutely no chance of winning what so ever.
I don't mean this to be inflammatory I just haven't seen or hear any evidence to the contrary (from any sources).

[EvilElitest]

Funny, it only took us one post to figure out that Sauron would utterly crush Voldemort and Voldemort has absolutely no chance of winning what so ever.
I don't mean this to be inflammatory I just haven't seen or hear any evidence to the contrary (from any sources).

Hey i'm on Sauron's side, I mean i think Voldermort could cause some trouble, but no way he could beat Sauron, his track record is much less

Bear in mind, even when Morgoth was still around Sauron was considered powerful, he was the second in command
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[Executor]

I'm amazed at how long this VS thread has gone on. Being as most of us have already come to the conclusion that Sauron would grind Voldemort to dust. Or break his mind over a vast distance. Or shrug off an Avada Kedavra and bash his face in with that badass Mace of Doom(tm). Or any other of the myraid ways in which the Dark Lord of Mordor could kill his fake impersonator.

Of course, Ditto doesn't seem to accept this and makes sweeping statements like "Voldemort is the most powerful person in the universe" that keep the debate alive as we try to correct the obvious falsehood of said statement.

[EvilElitest]

I'm amazed at how long this VS thread has gone on. Being as most of us have already come to the conclusion that Sauron would grind Voldemort to dust. Or break his mind over a vast distance. Or shrug off an Avada Kedavra and bash his face in with that badass Mace of Doom(tm). Or any other of the myraid ways in which the Dark Lord of Mordor could kill his fake impersonator.

Of course, Ditto doesn't seem to accept this and makes sweeping statements like "Voldemort is the most powerful person in the universe" that keep the debate alive as we try to correct the obvious falsehood of said statement.

Well on the link vs. Seph thread, and most of its spawns, the thread went on because people just wouldn't come to see logic, though granted Ditto is doing a far better job
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EE