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    Default Re: Sauron vs Voldemort

    Quote Originally Posted by Ditto View Post
    Orcs ignored orders during the war because their hate of goblins or Uruks or whoever else they didn't like working with.
    But they will work together when they are afraid of the Nazgul, and still follow orders when they are being overseen, and still love to hate their enemies.
    Death Eaters, however, never deliberately disobeyed orders while Voldemort was around.
    What about the ones who betrayed their members to the Ministry, who ran away when he vanished, who didn't come when he called, who deserted when he begane to be defeated, and who outright surrendered. Snape was just the only one who out right betrayed him from the beginning. However, if things ever seem bad for Voldemort they switch sides, desert or out right retreat.

    After the respective wars, Mordor was a shadow of itself
    Not true, the WK ran things their and not only kept it in power, it was able to retake Minis Morgal, and reduce Gondor to a shadow of its formor self, and then destroyed Anor.

    As soon as Voldemort recorporealized, all of his followers returned at once.
    By all of his followers, you mean 1/8 of the normal force. And with no real surrport. And it takes him three book before he is able to attempt a take over. And it collaspes before he is able to maintain power


    Both groups retained much of their destructive potential (much more strongly in the case of Death Eaters), but could not effect a meaningful victory without their leadership.
    the orc are still a threat even without their boss, the battle of five armies was driven by the orcs one their own, as were a good deal of the northern armies.


    I don't know that the orcs could ever had done anything with themselves, whereas several Death Eaters maintained their subtle and sinister work, albeit on a much lower level, throughout the years of Voldemort's absence.
    The orcs have been terroizing most of the good nations (see the war of dwarves and orcs, battle of five armies, the orcs attempt to kidnap Elrond's wife, the destruction of the dwarvish kindoms, the raids on the elves and men in the east, the lost of Anor, the damage done to Anor, ect)
    The Death Eaters pretty much killed some muggles and slipped a diary into a cauldren.

    45,000 at Pelennor? See, you cited a source that's much more in keeping with everyone else's figures. Again, anything based on the movie is not conclusive, so the guidebook to the movies isn't ironclad. I'll trust in another source readily.
    Lord of the Rings weapons and Warfare says 300,000 total, but in reality it is unknown how much they really had, but considering Saurn's power, it is very likely an inhuman number.


    Saruman can rule all of Mordor for all Voldemort cares. So long as he reports ultimately to him, he doesn't really care for carving up territory.
    And Voldemort can offer him this how?
    And what can he offer that Sauron can't


    The Dementors get *more* souls to eat by joining Sauron's side? Again, Voldemort is working with a few dozen wizards - or, the Dementors could eat several thousand orcs. Voldemort offers far more tasty treats.
    Built a prison, sacerfice all his enemies and a few thousand orcs, hence a more vaulable food source that is considstence.

    How do you figure 5,000 orcs are going to do anything to 1,000 dementors? That most certainly is a fair trade, but Dementors aren't really afraid of orcs... they can only be repelled by Happy Magic™, and the Sauroners have that in short supply.
    1. Sauron has domination powers.
    2. Kill magic that might hurt them.
    3. Can normal weapons hurth them, even if the orcs can't seen them.
    4. He can offer them more
    from,
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    Default Re: Sauron vs Voldemort

    Quote Originally Posted by Ditto View Post
    If orcs hide by day, wizards hide by night. Easy enough. And wizards are safer when camping, too!
    Their is not day anymore, Sauron blots out the sun.

    For specific issues, wizards can bweem daylight. Summoning flame shields (yes, there's always Fiendfyre, but wizards make *normal* fire too, a la Dumbledore in HP6) is functional *and* pretty.
    They make pretty good targets two
    Avery-Damn it, i can't see a thing
    Malfoy- Just keep quite, we need to steal some food
    (Malfoy's foot gets caught in a rabbit hole)
    Malfory- Ah, damnit my foot,)
    Orc Bob- Hey did you hear that
    Orc-Joe- I don't know, just shoot in that general direction
    Avery- Slick Malfoy (teleports)
    Malfory- Wait what is going on, ouch, i don't deserve this
    (arrow goes into his eye, he vanishes)
    Mean while, Avery shows up the next night
    Avery- Ok, i'm not going to stumble around in the dark, i'll use Lumos
    Orc Bob- Hey look a target
    Orc Joe- I'll shoot it
    Avery- Die inferor scum (shoots some nasty spells in the general direction of the camps, AK's Joe
    Orc Bob- Joe, no, JOEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEeeee, i didn't even like you
    (Orc Bob shanks Avery
    The end.

    I'm sure they could rig up some sort of darkvision spell, but human transfiguration isn't taught til 6th or 7th year so a little Lumos is just a cleaner way for everyday use. If Sauron blots out the sun, that's an issue for targetting to be sure, but the best kinds of spells against an army are AoE, right? You don't have to be too precise.
    But you can't see arrows in the dark very easily, or Nazguls for that matter



    I don't recall ever putting too fine a point on finding the targets, let's see... I believe there's a 'Prying Eyes' analogue... I can't put my finger on it, but I want to say it was used notably in the 5th book. I believe Patronuses could serve the purpose of scouts (if this team weren't all evil).
    I'm gong to reveal something somewhat amazing, but team death eaters is evil

    Flying around on a broomstick under an Invisibility Cloak or disillusionment charm would be good, too.
    Cloaks are in limited surpply, and disillusionment can be risky for the purpose of communication

    Hominem Revelio might be adaptable into a narrow cone instead of a radius burst. And the orc army is generally easier to find than a few dozen wizards are due to the size of the force alone. I don't think it's one of the main issue here, really.
    But all orcs can see in the dark

    Corrupting is another tack, I suppose, but it ultimately comes down to who has the most souls to steal, and that's unquestionably the thousands-strong Sauron team. It's not about who's more evil among evils; when forced to choose the good guys or the evil guys, they'll go with the evil guys because they're a bit looser with their prisoners, nothing more.
    Sauron can offer his own men as sacerfices, without any of then trying to fight back, Voldemort can't


    EDIT: Dementors are the manifestations of fear. Nazgul are men. Nazgul are men with a supernatural ability.
    1. Dementors are still creatures
    2. When you become a wraith, you are no longer a human with supernation abilties, your just a wraith
    "Soldiers aren't happy"? Well, duh. You need to talk to some soldiers, friend... not enjoying foxholes is different from the sudden certainty that life is not worth living. You're also pretty flip with the 'rip out your soul thing'... when you get stabbed, you can get better.
    OKs only seem to be happy when somebody else is suffering
    Balrogs are, literally, shadow and flame, but they don't come into play here as after Gandalf defeated Durin's Bane there probably aren't any left. (Tolkien changed his mind about them over several drafts, the latest version that I'm aware of had less than 10 of them ever. Earlier drafts had them as more numerous, but less invincible).
    The fact that Duran's bane is dead is irrelevant, by that logic the WK and Voldemort are dead as well. So you really can't use them being dead as an argument.
    Also, the number of Balrogs is unknown, just that Duran's bane isn't the last, but i doubt the make difference
    Yes, there were dragons into the 3rd age, but they're all dead. Smaug was the last we have any mention of.
    Re-read the Hobbit, they live in the Witherned Hearth. Oh and the apendix in the Return of the King, they are still alive, they just don't serve anyone but them selves, an exception being when they destroyed the dwarf kindoms for Sauron, but that was a deal
    Morgul blades, poison darts, black breath... these assume you get anywhere near the enemy. That isn't happening, remember? The Nazgul are men with their lives incredibly extended, as I've quoted repeatedly. They've been corrupted in all manner of nasty ways, but no matter how many templates you stack on they're still men.
    Call me old fashion, but souless empty undead spirts who's sole purpose in life is to serve the lord of evil don't seem like humans to me anymore. They were ONCE men, no longer.

    from,
    EE
    Last edited by EvilElitest; 2007-10-27 at 06:00 PM.

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    Default Re: Sauron vs Voldemort

    I never said the orcs didn't follow orders. I just said they weren't mindless slaves to the will of Sauron, as some have suggested.

    Tattling on people when you're captured already is not defecting. At his reincarnation, Voldemort only cited one who'd run away (Karkaroff). Most everyone hid or pled Imperius when called on it after Voldemort's fall, but that doesn't mean they're disloyal, just smart. You see Lucius & Snape have this argument with Bellatrix - who was more useful, the 'loyal' one in prison, or the ones at Dumbledore's right hand and a high place in wizarding society circles, respectively? No, Voldemort most definitely did not have any outright defectors.

    Voldemort was working quietly for one whole book, for the next book he sowed seeds of fear and took control of key positions in the Ministry, and after that year was prepared to seize all power in the Ministry. After that, total win for Voldemort. "It collapsed before he was able to maintain power"? What does that even mean? It collapsed when everyone on his team was captured or killed. That isn't really a collapse, which implies some sort of internal defect in the plan itself. And he still accomplished it all faster than Sauron did.

    And you're still not listening to what I say every post about Dementors, EE. Sauron wants something from them, they cannot be hurt by most magics or normal weapons (assuming you're able to swing anything), and they cannot be mind controlled - doesn't work on dark creatures. Again, no matter how many templates you stack on them, they're men at the bottom. Dementors are not. You can't equate the two like that.And thank you for that wonderful script of what happens when Avery and Malfoy get drunk.

    Moody had two cloaks. I'm sure Voldemort can have at least two, hm? And I don't think you know what a disillusionment charm is... it has nothing to do with communication. It basically makes you a chameleon.

    From the Lexicon:
    A Dementor's last and worst weapon is called the Dementor's Kiss. The Dementor puts back its hood and clamps its jaws on the mouth of the victim and sucks out his soul, leaving him an empty shell, alive but completely, irretrievably "gone."
    As you say EE, precisely. Forging the ring in a volcano and living there and the volcano erupting when he gets angry all imply he's in some way atuned to the volcano, yes. His burning touch implies... he has a burning touch. "Trenches filled with fire" doesn't equal "Trenches filled with fire that Sauron specifically put there and sustains through his will". Show something that demonstrates his ability to control fire outside of his home. (He's technically working with lava, at that.)

    That quote on Gandalf and fire is very interesting indeed. There could be something to that, but there are plenty of alternatives - normal fire will not light in the pass, and thus magic must have lighted it for just one. A solid lead, but it needs more evidence.

    The trace is placed on wizards as a sort of 'ankle bracelet', and cannot just be placed at range. It's like getting tagged at birth. It's none to precise, either, as we see when Dobby does his Hover charm and Potter gets blamed. Seems like "No one can cast magic in this radius who isn't a registered wand user." Jinxing words is an ill-defined plot device I never really understood, but it gives Voldemort's team an advantage against Sauron anyway. The Maruader's Map is deeply tied to Hogwarts, and it detects everything (not just wizards) so it's not necessarily useful for tracking magic specifically. In any event, all of these represent HP magic methods. You'd need to come up with some analogue in the LOTR universe if the LOTR people want to use it.
    Last edited by Ditto; 2007-10-27 at 06:13 PM.
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    Default Re: Sauron vs Voldemort

    Quote Originally Posted by Ditto View Post
    From the Lexicon:


    As you say EE, precisely. Forging the ring in a volcano and living there and the volcano erupting when he gets angry all imply he's in some way atuned to the volcano, yes. His burning touch implies... he has a burning touch. "Trenches filled with fire" doesn't equal "Trenches filled with fire that Sauron specifically put there and sustains through his will". Show something that demonstrates his ability to control fire outside of his home. (He's technically working with lava, at that.)
    He was the second in command to Aule the Smith, the god of fire and the forge. I think he is good with fire.

    That quote on Gandalf and fire is very interesting indeed. There could be something to that, but there are plenty of alternatives - normal fire will not light in the pass, and thus magic must have lighted it for just one. A solid lead, but it needs more evidence.
    Considering that we haven't ever really seen Sauron in action, i'm pretty sure that could handle some mortal spells.
    Oh and a thing about Morgal blades, doesn't that mean he could stabe a few hundred orcs and turn them into Wraiths? more men that way
    from,
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    You're *pretty sure* he could do cool stuff with magic? Well, if you're pretty sure, I guess that's that.

    ...as you say, we haven't seen much of him in battle. If he didn't do it, then please don't just assume he can, hm?

    (P.S. I added thing to my previous post and am too lazy to copy them down. )
    Quote Originally Posted by zyphyr View Post
    They don't actually love Gold, they only say that to get it into bed.
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    Default Re: Sauron vs Voldemort

    Quote Originally Posted by Ditto View Post
    You're *pretty sure* he could do cool stuff with magic? Well, if you're pretty sure, I guess that's that.

    ...as you say, we haven't seen much of him in battle. If he didn't do it, then please don't just assume he can, hm?

    (P.S. I added thing to my previous post and am too lazy to copy them down. )
    I am not responding to anything that you are editing, because i'm to lazy my self

    Also, Sauron is a fire spirt/demi god thing, i'm sure he is good with fire.
    from,
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    Default Re: Sauron vs Voldemort

    Quote Originally Posted by Ditto View Post
    No, Voldemort most definitely did not have any outright defectors.
    Snape

    Quote Originally Posted by Ditto View Post
    That isn't really a collapse, which implies some sort of internal defect in the plan itself. And he still accomplished it all faster than Sauron did.
    So failure isn't evidence of a lack of something? Whether it's power, cunning, will, numbers, resources, or anything else, failure means that you're lacking something. If the plan was perfect, as you implied, then that means that Voldemort and/or his minions are too weak/stupid/arrogant/(flaw) to follow even the best of plans to success. if that's you're point then please look back in this thread as I believe I said something similar in my first post.
    Seriously though, they failed, you can't ignore parts of the books simply because they imply weakness in your favoured team.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ditto View Post
    And you're still not listening to what I say every post about Dementors, EE. Sauron wants something from them, they cannot be hurt by most magics or normal weapons (assuming you're able to swing anything), and they cannot be mind controlled - doesn't work on dark creatures.
    Firstly please provide proof that mind control does not work on dementors. Are there any examples where someone tried? I highly doubt that there is any evidence to back up that statement.

    Also you, in turn, are not listening to what we are saying about dementors. Sauron can offer them orcs that are much easier to obtain than the orcs that Voldemort can offer them. Also he can offer them Death Eaters (something Voldemort will not do). This is all compounded with the fact that, as being of dark spooky evilness, they will be drawn to him since he is, effectively, god of everything they stand for.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ditto View Post
    Again, no matter how many templates you stack on them, they're men at the bottom.
    If you want to use D&D terms I can prove you wrong very easily: some templates change a creatures type (to undead, outsider, etc).
    However since this isn't D&D your point is moot anyway.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ditto View Post
    Moody had two cloaks. I'm sure Voldemort can have at least two, hm?
    In that case it's perfectly logical that Eowyn had a magical sword.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ditto View Post
    That quote on Gandalf and fire is very interesting indeed. There could be something to that, but there are plenty of alternatives - normal fire will not light in the pass, and thus magic must have lighted it for just one. A solid lead, but it needs more evidence.
    On the contrary I think that is evidence enough on its own. He's obviously not saying that it is a visual sign since the area he stated is far to vast for someone to see a fire.
    Also it is obvious that he doesn't mean that just anyone can detect any magic being cast within several hundred miles of them. This means that those such as Sauron and Saruman (both of whom will be fighting Voldemort in this war) can sense his magic when used.

    Yarg! Gotta run.
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    Default Re: Sauron vs Voldemort

    In
    that case it's perfectly logical that Eowyn had a magical sword
    .

    You are a god
    from,
    EE

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    Default Re: Sauron vs Voldemort

    Quote Originally Posted by EvilElitest View Post
    You are a god
    from,
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    Thank you, but actually I was only granted vast dark powers by Sauron, the true Dark Lord.

    IN any case, I'm sigging this.
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    Default Re: Sauron vs Voldemort

    Quote Originally Posted by Ditto View Post
    Morgul blades, poison darts, black breath... these assume you get anywhere near the enemy. That isn't happening, remember? The Nazgul are men with their lives incredibly extended, as I've quoted repeatedly. They've been corrupted in all manner of nasty ways, but no matter how many templates you stack on they're still men. Dementors are not unhappiness, they're happy-less-ness. There's a difference. The Dementor's Kiss works against someone who isn't guarding against it pretty quickly (Sirius was taken in seconds, not minutes), and leave the victim a soulless husk. I'm okay with the orcs being alive, but being vegetables.
    Morgul blades need to you be close. Since when do arrows? And as stated, the Black Breath is not a close-range thing. Anybody who feels the Nazgul-fear runs the risk of contracting it. Anyone who actually acts against a Nazgul will be afflicted with it. Numerous soldiers at the Battle of the Pelennor Fields were afflicted with it during and afterwards, and the Nazgul were simpy flying over the battlefield demoralizing their enemies.

    There's no indication Dementors can be killed. I don't care what you say the source of Sauron' power is, it sure as hell isn't happiness. That's the way to beat them, the end.
    Sauron wants something from them, they cannot be hurt by most magics or normal weapons (assuming you're able to swing anything), and they cannot be mind controlled - doesn't work on dark creatures.
    Killed, maybe not. But... Sauron can't control dark creatures? That... is strange, seeing as he's done it multiple times, particularly with dementor-like spirits of malevolence. I reiterate: the watchers in the statues at the gates of Cirith Ungol, the nameless malevolent presences at Minas Morgul, the barrow-wights (controlled by the Witch-king, even, not Sauron himself)... the list goes on. Immensely powerful creatures like Balrogs and dragons have to be bargained with rather than commanded, but Dementors simply are not that powerful.

    I agree that Voldemort is in trouble if he can't escape, or if he gets to Mount Doom. But you can't block apparition without the anti-apparition jinx, or another fixed locus effect like around Hogwarts or Mount Doom. But it's a neutral battlefield, so there's no Mount Doom. If Voldemort were just another force fighting in Middle Earth, that's a pretty good plan.
    Why is it a neutral battlefield? One of Sauron's advantages is that he has a massive power base, walled off with steep mountains or vast deserts and surrounded on three sides by allies. He has a power base; why does he not get to use it again? Voldemort would be allowed his stronghold too... except he doesn't have one. It would likely hinder him anyway, because he's depending heavily on mobility.

    Ah, but what is Voldemort's dental plan? His medical was pretty awful... look what happened to Wormtail!
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    Default Re: Sauron vs Voldemort

    Quote Originally Posted by The_Snark View Post
    Morgul blades need to you be close. Since when do arrows? And as stated, the Black Breath is not a close-range thing. Anybody who feels the Nazgul-fear runs the risk of contracting it. Anyone who actually acts against a Nazgul will be afflicted with it. Numerous soldiers at the Battle of the Pelennor Fields were afflicted with it during and afterwards, and the Nazgul were simpy flying over the battlefield demoralizing their enemies.
    Agreed

    Quote Originally Posted by The_Snark View Post
    Killed, maybe not. But... Sauron can't control dark creatures? That... is strange, seeing as he's done it multiple times, particularly with dementor-like spirits of malevolence. I reiterate: the watchers in the statues at the gates of Cirith Ungol, the nameless malevolent presences at Minas Morgul, the barrow-wights (controlled by the Witch-king, even, not Sauron himself)... the list goes on. Immensely powerful creatures like Balrogs and dragons have to be bargained with rather than commanded, but Dementors simply are not that powerful.
    Agreed

    Quote Originally Posted by The_Snark View Post
    Why is it a neutral battlefield? One of Sauron's advantages is that he has a massive power base, walled off with steep mountains or vast deserts and surrounded on three sides by allies. He has a power base; why does he not get to use it again? Voldemort would be allowed his stronghold too... except he doesn't have one. It would likely hinder him anyway, because he's depending heavily on mobility.
    Agreed. The neutral battle field is just one of the conditions that Ditto has imposed to tilt this fight in Voldemort's favour.
    However nothing can actually tilt this battle far enough for Voldemort to win.
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    Default Re: Sauron vs Voldemort

    Quote Originally Posted by The_Snark View Post
    Ah, but what is Voldemort's dental plan? His medical was pretty awful... look what happened to Wormtail!
    Wormtail got an entire severed hand replaced! My medical certainly wouldn't cover that!

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    Default Re: Sauron vs Voldemort

    Quote Originally Posted by Dave Rapp View Post
    Wormtail got an entire severed hand replaced! My medical certainly wouldn't cover that!
    And it... oh, wait. This thread has so many spoilers it shouldn't matter, but...

    Spoiler
    Show
    His replacement hand strangled him! Being fitted with a self-termination device was not in the initial contract!


    Besides, Sauron replaces whole bodies for his defeated wraiths, even replacing lost possession and generously throwing in spiffy new winged mounts!
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    Default Re: Sauron vs Voldemort

    Sauron could easily win, Voldemort cant kill a baby......

    Sauron pretty much owns this thread
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    Default Re: Sauron vs Voldemort

    Voldemort can come back as soon as he figures out the right incantation and gathers the right material components. It took him about 14 years to get himself back together. How'd that work out for Sauron?
    14 years, a Xanatos Roulette, obscenely good luck, and some minion sacrifice. Sauron 'just' needs the Ring, is my understanding of it.

    While one orc feeds more then one orc, I'm not entirely certain why food supplies are being brought up. I mean, I would assume that Orcs are superior at foraging to the Death Eaters who haven't been on the run (I get the distinct impression they're idle rich Pure-blood supremacists, so I don't think they'd do too well if they're not already used to it; something which, say, Lestrange /is/ used to, as well as the other Azkaban-ites). I think that without supplies, the Orcs would last longer without revealing their force, but a little creative magic and I imagine Voldemort's army can eat. Of course, it ties up their limitted mage supply; Transmute/Transmogrify/Trans-whateverthehellyoucallit inanimate objects to tasty critters. Yeah, one given spell doesn't take long to cast, but you'd have to be casting it a hell of a lot to feed his troops (He's got what, 7000 guys? It's not THAT many relatively, but you'll need a mage or two working full time to feed them)

    Morgul blades, poison darts, black breath... these assume you get anywhere near the enemy. That isn't happening, remember?
    The only person who thinks this isn't happening is you. Heck, you think it's happening, when it's convenient (I.E. Dementors, who'll mystically close with Sauron's force..)

    Agreed. The neutral battle field is just one of the conditions that Ditto has imposed to tilt this fight in Voldemort's favour.
    However nothing can actually tilt this battle far enough for Voldemort to win.
    I'll grant that I haven't cited a source, but if Wizards need to visualize where they're apparating to, it's a disadvantage to Voldemort anyway. Sauron can too easily block it, if it needs a mental image of where you're going.

    What goes into Palantir creation? Another spiffy idea would be making decoy Palantirs. Disguise them as something Voldemort's force would need, like magical weapons or something like that, send a batallion to go die with some form of evidence as to their goal actually being the macguffin and not Voldemort. Whoever finds it pretty much gets forced into teleporting to Sauron, short of Voldemort himself (I'm in agreement that even with direct contact, he could stop Sauron from forcing him to do anything. His followers, however, are mental dilenquents, as is fitting of minions).

    Without his individually superior corps, Voldemort is pretty much doomed. Dooooooomed.

    Agreed. The neutral battle field is just one of the conditions that Ditto has imposed to tilt this fight in Voldemort's favour.
    However nothing can actually tilt this battle far enough for Voldemort to win.
    Well, it's a rational condition. Say I say <Insert Guy with uber fortified location here> and <Other guy with uber fortified location here> have to duke it out?

    ...Granted, that's simply not the case here. And even if one did allow both strongholds, it's true that it'd be a weakness to Voldemort, mostly.. except that he would indeed have a near perfect bolt-hole, and assuming my 'restriction' on Apparation is accurate, there'd not be a way to counter it (Short of actually counterring the magic, which could indeed be possible.. you can't apparate on Hogwarts grounds, right?)
    Last edited by Rutee; 2007-10-27 at 09:59 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rowanomicon View Post
    Thank you, but actually I was only granted vast dark powers by Sauron, the true Dark Lord.

    IN any case, I'm sigging this.
    Help your self, anything for a fellow disiple
    Agreed. The neutral battle field is just one of the conditions that Ditto has imposed to tilt this fight in Voldemort's favour.
    However nothing can actually tilt this battle far enough for Voldemort to win.
    How about Sauron can't get army
    Wait, he is a demi god with the powers of life and death, Advantage Sauron
    Doesn't have the ring- still extremly powerful spirt to the point that other demit gods can't confront him in person, advantage Sauron
    No form, the ring is a corruption influence that will destroy Voldemort from within, then get him mauled by gollum.



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    Last edited by EvilElitest; 2007-10-27 at 10:39 PM.

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    I shall have to repeat myself...
    1)magic in the LOTR is quite different than that of the HP saga... magic in LOTR is mainly a feat of willpower, dedication and blood (where blood stands for race, horigin, status).. magic through which just about everything can be accomplished, since it is not limited by formules or the use of one or the other ingredient.

    2)Sauron is a maiar, something very close to a higher form of archangel or angel..he hasn't got the "gift of Eru", mortality... so he can't die.
    he can "only" be destroyed..and this happens only thanks to a huge series of circumstances, through the personal effort of a long list of "heroes" and through the mobilisation and voluntary sacrifice of a very large number of people and factors..
    I sincerelly doubt that voldemort would have the personal talent and intelligence, nor the level of control over his minions to accomplish this.
    He even loses control quite easily whenever something unexpected happens..
    HP manages to beat him and some of his most powerfull magic even way before the final controntation, escaping his control more than once.
    let's face it, even his most loyal associates are destined to fail whenever he is not personally in place and in control of things...
    and they normally get outwitted and overpowered by a bunch of teenagers...

    Sauron is no tenager!!


    P.S. let's also not forget that any HP mage without his magic wand is just a bloke on a flying broom, while Sauron, even without his "one ring" can still kick your brains out and crush you into oblivion both by magic and by sheer violence. How long do you think it would take Sauron to realize this and to find a way of destroying any wand Voldemort could be inclined to use?
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    Voldemort has two wands, the Elder Wand, that doesn't belong to him, and his own evil one. He can use magic without his wand it seems, but nobody else can
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    Wandless magic exists in HP, but you very rarely see a wizard use it.
    It is incredibly hard to master and is the exception to the rule.
    Voldemort may not be completely useless without a want, but his power is greatly decreased, and his minions pretty much are useless without wands.

    We already know that the Witch King (what about other Nazgul?) can sunder objects at a distance. There is no evidence that wands have any sort of protection from this.

    Granted each want needs to be specifically targeted, but that will happen any time the Witch King sees a wizard. This will be rather often as he will be flying around over the battle field that they are apparating around on or also flying over. Every time a Death Eater loses a wand that is effectively one less wizard on Voldemort's team.
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    Hey quick question, if Voldemort is killed without hte power of love, how does he come back?
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    A wandless wizard is absolutely screwed. They can apparate away, and Voldemort can do some things, but they're effectively out of the fight.

    I see what you're saying about a neutral battlefield... on the other hand, Voldemort has great knowledge of hidey-holes in Britain and all manner of other nifty tricks that home turf grants. It's no stronghold, but when you live in Britain and the other guy lives in Middle Earth, you have some trouble 'crossing the border'... in other threads, the battlefield has always been space. Space is neutral terrain. There weren't strongholds to defend, it was never an issue. I don't know what to say to this point. Voldemort still isn't going to fight at Mount Doom.

    Black Breath seems like crop dusting to me. It's more than the range of breath, but still essentially a local effect. When I say 'They're not closing to melee range', I am of course only refering to the wizards. Giants and dementors have to get close. Dementors are not attracted to evilness, that's just a matter of convenience. Evil people let more folks get eaten. Sauron can offer them Death Eaters? Death Eaters are rather more challenging targets than any number of orcs. And however many folks Sauron offers, Voldemort can 'offer' more - he's cool with the dementors eating anyone at all.

    Also, Sauron is a fire spirt/demi god thing, i'm sure he is good with fire.
    Now he's a fire spirit? Please stop being 'sure' of things unless they can demonstrably do such things.

    Mind control in the Potterverse has only been been shown to work on sentient beings, not creatures of any cast - dark, magical, or mundane.

    Eowyn had a sword. It wasn't magical. I didn't say 'We know Voldemort has a cloak, it's probably an Invisibility Cloak.' It makes perfect sense for Eowyn to have a magical sword, but for whatever reason, the one she used to kill the Witch-King was not magical. Perhaps she left her shiny sword at home, since it would blow her cover if she used it in man-soldierly guise.

    Coming back several thousand years faster isn't a one-up because it requires a minion? And Sauron had zero help in returning to power and recorporealizing?

    If you need to Transfigure creatures to feed yourselves, then any wizard can do that. Even if someone had to do that full time... the orcs don't have their own dedicated cooks?

    Apparating does require a clear mental image of the destination, having been there or having seen it or having seen a picture or having a clear description. How is Sauron blocking this? Line of sight is sufficient to scoot around the area, and back to the starting point if need be. You can enchant an area to be apparition proof with HP magic, and it seems it wouldn't work on Mount Doom. That's why the Death Eaters wouldn't go there.

    Magic in LOTR seems extremely limited, actually... HP magic, as you get into the really complicated stuff, might require obscure formulas and components, but you sort of needed special materials to forge the Ring, too. HP magic can accomplish anything you can dream up, with enough ingenuity and practice. Any fancy effects in LOTR have to be developed through dread rituals and mighty sacrifice and the like.

    Voldemort has never been killed without the power of love (while his horcruxes are around), so it's hard to say what effect it would have. The power of love is more the reason the AK was reflected than the reason Voldemort died... he should be able to be killed(-ish) with an AK like anyone else.

    Voldemort's HMO covers regrowing bones, too! Dental is a toughie... I mean, they *are* all British.
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    First off, the transformation of stuff into animals for food cannot be done with Potter magic- they even have some sort of fundamental rule against it. Wizards are dependant on other sources of food than magic. Sure magic can alter and apparently increase the amount of food available, but they can't pull it out of nowhere. Foraging is possible, though somehow the Death Eaters don't really strike me as the back to the land sort who want to get in touch with nature and live off of the land...

    Sauron and fire- he lived in an active volcano, and can turn aside divine fire. If this is not mastery of the element I'm not sure what is.

    And the Black Breath is hardly short range- it affected men when the Nazgul were flying over the walls of Minas Tirith. Since the Nazgul are never shot at, we must assume one of two things:
    1) They fly high enough that they are out of range of arrows. This strikes me as the least likely possibility, since it would imply that they can strike paralyzing fear from a range of several hundred yards.
    2) They must fly somewhat closer to do so, but the fear is so strong that those affected are rendered completely helpless by it. This still implies that the Black Breath and accompanying dread reaches out at least as far as effective bow range however, and still leaves a range of several hundred feet- which is a far greater distance than wizards generally fight each other at.

    Finally, archers actually out-range wizards. Wizards fight generally pretty close, 20 or 50 feet maybe, and still can dodge spells. This gives spells a very slow flight speed, well under a hundred feet a second. Arrows from a 75lb draw bow (and that's a pretty wimpy war bow) travel at three times this speed. If a wizard is in effective range, he will be dead before his spell reaches its target. Sure wizards can apperate out of the way, but when they're apperating, they are not casting spells and doing damage. Fiendfyre again takes significant time to actually become deadly, since pretty much everybody in the Room at the time is able to stand around staring at it, try to put it out, then run and be able to evade the flames in an enclosed space full of flaminable objects for several minutes. To me this implies that Fiendfyre might be used to scatter orc formations, but won't actually cause that many casualties.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ditto View Post
    And however many folks Sauron offers, Voldemort can 'offer' more - he's cool with the dementors eating anyone at all.
    No, he can't offer more. Will he really sacrifice is Death eaters?
    Remember dementors don't automatically get orcs if they're on Voldemort's side; they have to go get them themselves. This is harder and takes longer than having orcs sacrificed to you.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ditto View Post
    Mind control in the Potterverse has only been been shown to work on sentient beings, not creatures of any cast - dark, magical, or mundane.
    Never being shown to work is different from being shown to not work.
    If I understand you correctly then you are not aware of any evidence that that proves they have any special resistance to mental domination and coercion.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ditto View Post
    Eowyn had a sword. It wasn't magical. I didn't say 'We know Voldemort has a cloak, it's probably an Invisibility Cloak.' It makes perfect sense for Eowyn to have a magical sword, but for whatever reason, the one she used to kill the Witch-King was not magical. Perhaps she left her shiny sword at home, since it would blow her cover if she used it in man-soldierly guise.
    You're arguing the wrong point here. I brought up the sword point to show you that you are guilty of giving Voldemort advantages though logic and not through any real evidence that he has them. It would be handy if Voldemort had an invisibility cloak, and we do know that multiple cloaks exist, but I'm pretty sure there's never any mention of him having one in the books. Therefore he does not have one.
    It should be noted that giving Voldemort something he doesn't have is a far greater stretch than determining that Eowyn's sword should be magical.
    However, neither point is very important to this thread anyway.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ditto View Post
    Magic in LOTR seems extremely limited, actually... HP magic, as you get into the really complicated stuff, might require obscure formulas and components, but you sort of needed special materials to forge the Ring, too. HP magic can accomplish anything you can dream up, with enough ingenuity and practice. Any fancy effects in LOTR have to be developed through dread rituals and mighty sacrifice and the like.
    OK, first of all 'dread rituals and mighty sacrifice,' what?
    Secondly how can you say that a magic system which is basically "do anything you can imagine, DM's discretion on how effective it is" is more limited than a "you need these specific ingredients and incantations to cast this specific spell" magic system?
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    I'm losing it...

    muggles have nuclear weapons... voldemort lives among them, does that mean that he has a nuclear weapon to use? isn't this the same as saying that Sauron has pointy ears..why? well..because elves have them too...right?

    this is to say that the whole point of having stuff "because it could be possible" is quite ridiculus.

    and, by the way, we do not know if eowyn her sword has or hasn't any magical propriety, since the point is never made by the author. (the fact that tolkien normally takes care to name particular swords and state their horigin when they are noteworthy could be used as an argument, but is mere speculation, so let's cut it here, please)

    ah...who cares if Sauron has or hasn't got control over fire??? does it make a difference?
    I don't know. we could point out that the mountain Caradras answers to the words of power used by Saruman, who is a weaker creature of the same "race" of Sauron...and that old man willow answers to Bombadil... and let's not forget the "water horses" Gandalf came up with at Rivendell...so it is probably a safe bet to say that sauron has some power over the elements and nature at large...but is this true? who knows? it could be said that Sauron could have deployed more powers, where he not opposed by the powers of the other ringbearers (gandalf/cirdan, galadriel and elrond) and by other characters of some power, who held him at bay as much as they could... but this again would be speculation.because the opposite could be true..

    if we really want to continue this thread, iI believe it should be limited to what actually is written in the books and not to embellishments and fanfictious theorizing.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ditto View Post
    I see what you're saying about a neutral battlefield... on the other hand, Voldemort has great knowledge of hidey-holes in Britain and all manner of other nifty tricks that home turf grants. It's no stronghold, but when you live in Britain and the other guy lives in Middle Earth, you have some trouble 'crossing the border'... in other threads, the battlefield has always been space. Space is neutral terrain. There weren't strongholds to defend, it was never an issue. I don't know what to say to this point. Voldemort still isn't going to fight at Mount Doom.
    Fair enough, Voldemort's not stupid. It's one of Sauron's primary advantages, though, so I'm reluctant to simply remove it. Perhaps Britain has been fused with Middle-Earth?

    Black Breath seems like crop dusting to me. It's more than the range of breath, but still essentially a local effect. When I say 'They're not closing to melee range', I am of course only refering to the wizards. Giants and dementors have to get close.
    Local, sure, but as long as a wizard properly feels the terror (and Apparating in to find a Nazgul wheeling towards him on a fell beast would do it), he's vulnerable. As are people who manage to overcome the fear enough to strike at the Nazgul.

    Mind control in the Potterverse has only been been shown to work on sentient beings, not creatures of any cast - dark, magical, or mundane.
    That's the rules for the Imperius curse. Not for Sauron's command over evil spirits.

    Remember that some of the time Sauron spent before returning in full strength was spent re-gathering minions and re-building. It wasn't a simple defeat—his minions had all been vanquished, he'd been personally defeated, and he'd just lost the greater part of his power. He came back a lot faster after the fall of Numenor, when it was just him who was crushed by the tidal wave.

    I'd say Voldemort still has the advantage in comebacks, but I think we already decided that if one manages to 'kill' the other, they've probably won.

    Some interesting points about the range and speed of magic versus arrows; I'm not an archery expert, so I can't really comment there, but dodging most of these curses does seem to be fairly easy unless you're very close.

    Regrowing bones, bah. As well as unrivalled medical for his more prestigious servants, Sauron offers full life insurance for all minions! If you die in his wars, your family will be provided for! (Because they've been conscripted, too!)
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    Voldemart does not have Felix Felicis: Sauron wins.
    Voldemart has Felix Felicis: Voldemart might win, but that is cheating.

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    First off, the transformation of stuff into animals for food cannot be done with Potter magic- they even have some sort of fundamental rule against it. Wizards are dependant on other sources of food than magic. Sure magic can alter and apparently increase the amount of food available, but they can't pull it out of nowhere. Foraging is possible, though somehow the Death Eaters don't really strike me as the back to the land sort who want to get in touch with nature and live off of the land...
    A rule, as in a law, or a rule, as in, it doesn't work? This is an important point, after all, and I know that living -> nonliving works perfectly well, as does conjuring an inanimate object from nowhere (Dumbledore and McGonagall do this at least once)

    And I think, foraging wise, the Death Eaters would be in two camps.
    1: The kind who have lived on the run. Wormtail, Bellatrix Lestrange, and the other Azkabanites (I don't htink Voldemort, uh, eats..). They can in fact at least feed themselves without help (Or have been stealing from muggles, a possibility that can't be discarded)
    2: The kind who are the idle rich pure bloods. Malfoy, and other important people of their ilk, who have nfc how to live

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    I see what you're saying about a neutral battlefield... on the other hand, Voldemort has great knowledge of hidey-holes in Britain and all manner of other nifty tricks that home turf grants. It's no stronghold, but when you live in Britain and the other guy lives in Middle Earth, you have some trouble 'crossing the border'... in other threads, the battlefield has always been space. Space is neutral terrain. There weren't strongholds to defend, it was never an issue. I don't know what to say to this point. Voldemort still isn't going to fight at Mount Doom.
    From what I saw, the fights seem to compare the Navies of two Sci Fi types. And uh, I don't think there's a whole lot you can do to fortify pure space :P

    Fighting in Britain assumes Muggles don't get involved, no? 'cause uh, I know where I'd be launching my ICBMs and pointing my guns if I were PM and Britain apparently had problems with Middle Earth. Similarly, no obstruction (Or aid) from Rohan and the like? Sounds more like Britain and Mordor just need to be connected, if that'st he case :P

    , but dodging most of these curses does seem to be fairly easy unless you're very close.
    Do characters make a point of dodging them? Remember, everything in movies looks easy to dodge/deflect. I mean, I remember Curses mostly being deflected. Though that might be doable for Orcs and the like anyway, depending on training. I presume that most spells don't give a damn about armor, but would contact with a sword work like contact with a wall?

    As to effective range of Archery vs. Spells.. come to think of it, I had forgotten something. Actual aiming and the like, I imagine that spells are no less effective at range.

    ...But Wizards aren't Snipers. Can they fire spells off at the range where an arrow volley can be done? It's not like they're aiming, so I'm unsure whether the range is shorter then the range you would aim your shots at.

    Magic in LOTR seems extremely limited, actually... HP magic, as you get into the really complicated stuff, might require obscure formulas and components, but you sort of needed special materials to forge the Ring, too. HP magic can accomplish anything you can dream up, with enough ingenuity and practice. Any fancy effects in LOTR have to be developed through dread rituals and mighty sacrifice and the like.
    Make me smarter. Or stronger. Don't give me Ox Legs, make me /smarter/.

    No, Harry Potter magic has precious little that directly affects a person that is not smacking her around somehow. It's hardly what I'd call an "anything I can dream up" system. I don't think LotR is either, but LotR strikes me as more diverse anyway. Any system that involves Incanting, where Incanting is neither optional nor flexible, is almost certainly more restrained then a system without it.
    (Also if you want 'anything you can dream up', Play Mage. Or Wyld Tomfoolery in Exalted XD)

    Apparating does require a clear mental image of the destination, having been there or having seen it or having seen a picture or having a clear description. How is Sauron blocking this? Line of sight is sufficient to scoot around the area, and back to the starting point if need be. You can enchant an area to be apparition proof with HP magic, and it seems it wouldn't work on Mount Doom. That's why the Death Eaters wouldn't go there.
    Obscure the area with fog. Reduce line of sight to ludicrously pathetic levels, and the LoS restriction on Apparation makes it so you're better off walking. Sauron can (supposedly, but I'm unsure on this myself) see through said fog.

    Now, how I'd handle it, given this. Take the minions in direct contact with me (Olag Hai? I'm not much of an LotR or HP nerd, just general internet, so bear with me), spread them out in each battallion (Assuming I have enough). I can now, in fact, micro my troops. Yes, I need the Olag Hai to live, but Mages are not snipers, and I don't believe they can arc curses (Even if they were so ludicrously mathematically prodigous as to be able to accurately arc a shot over troops). Draw out some Death Eaters (This should not be impossible. I assume both sides want to win, so I imagine either side will deploy to face an obvious threat), preferably with part of Voldemort's army.

    Lay in the Fog. The fog that won't affect *Me* as Sauron. The more Cowardly Death Eaters flee now, I would think, the more foolhardy remain. Fine, the army is still mine for the munching. 100 Death Eaters are simply not a credible threat to the whole of Sauron's forces, sorry. (Personally, as *Voldemort* I would use that army to draw away Sauron's troops, making a direct confrontation between the entire/most of Death Eater corp and Sauron himself much less suicidal. Hopefully, assuming the Nazgul can't teleport)

    If the Death Eaters remained behind, use the Olag Hai to give my archers directions on where to fire. Naturally, they're not aiming; The idea is to fill the area with arrows, sort things out later. I have no idea what the proper term is, but it's basically volleys of arrows until they're dead or leave.

    Naturally, there's no way this'd get them all. Potentially, it wouldn't even get a significant fraction. And I'm not sure it'd work twice, unless you deliberately sent a force small enough to be beaten by Voldemort's army (If you destroy it, he has no reason to deploy from his bolt holes). Bolt holes would have to be found with Black Numenorians or whatever other mages Sauron can dig up. It'd definitely be more time consuming and whatnot :P

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    HP magic is infinitely adaptable, but most definitely limited by spell duration times. That's why folks can conjure chairs from thin air, but the world's chairsmiths don't go broke. There are craftwizards who manufacture things and instill permanent enchantments on durable goods, and the economy continues merrily along. So yes, you have to figure out the code word to make an effect happen, and most things aren't meant to be permanent. That doesn't mean that most any feat can't be done. If you want to be smarter, drink a Wit-Sharpening Potion. Stronger, drink a strengthening solution, or use an Enlargement charm, or transfigure yourself into a giant. Conversely, LOTR seems to be pretty short on the Batman useful-effect-needed-now! variety of magic.

    Just because most wizard duelling is done at close range doesn't mean it can't be done elsewise. There's no reason to think you can't hex from farther away - it's mainly a function of spotting your target. It's no good to shoot a stunner from a hundred yards if you can't see the person, or if they already see you. However, there is evidence of magic working at significant distances - Morsmorde can travel aways off before erupting, and Quirrel jinxing Harry's broom was affecting a rapidly moving target more than a hundred feet away. And personal combat hexes *still* aren't the way wizards would deal with army mobs.

    Deflecting hexes when you see them coming is the same thing as hitting a baseball, really. If you are practices at hex deflection it's an elementary sort of thing. I think that you might be able to use shields on many kinds of direct-offense spells (stunners and AK), but if a Transfiguration hits it that'll still turn whatever target it hits into powder or daisies or the like. Concussive force is also good, or elemental attacks. Only things that are delivered to the target directly as a jet of light are deflectable, and many jinxes have no such display. And personal combat hexes *still* aren't the way wizards would deal with army mobs.

    Food may not be created. Animals can be conjured and transfigured. Therefore, live animals do not count as food for the purposes of Gamp's law. (Which is a scientific-magical law, not a legal one, Rutee.) Hermione is the only one of the trio who would be any good at inanimate->animate transfiguration (as with conjuring, a difficult feat) and I can't see her stoning pigs to death every now and again to eat. ::shrug:: But we're getting back into fooding again.

    No one is saying Voldemort has an ICBM... that was a side point followed by a metaphor, don't worry about it. Neither Muggles nor Rohirrim are getting involved.

    It's true enough that the rules for Imperius and whatever the rules are for Sauron are different. I find it highly unlikely that Dementors would be vulnerable to that sort of probe, or else Voldemort might have had fun possessing one of them and sucking souls for kicks, but I'm thinking this is OACA, then.

    If they want to make a point of it, they can blow the fog away... or just burn it off... or walk around in it for a while, and apparate back to the starting point when they get bored. Sauron can see through illusions and magical disguises, but fog is still fog, and the Eye is a big telescope.

    Ooh, Felix Felicis... why didn't I think of that before?
    Last edited by Ditto; 2007-10-28 at 10:31 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by zyphyr View Post
    They don't actually love Gold, they only say that to get it into bed.
    John Dies At The End
    Sauron vs. Voldemort

  29. - Top - End - #599
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
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    Default Re: Sauron vs Voldemort

    I don't think Felix Felicis comes into play here at all. Voldemort and his minions do not carry a supply of it as a rule so they would have to brew it. They do not have the resources to brew it on a neutral battlefield.
    Also it is "extremely difficult to brew" (wikipedia). I'm not sure what exactly this means. It might mean that anyone with 7th year potions can do it or it might mean that only potions masters can do it.
    Voldemort doesn't have any potions masters on his team.
    I don't think we should count Snape as being part of Voldemort's team for this thread. He is, in fact, not loyal to Voldemort and should be left out on the "heros from either world cannot interfere" rule.
    Also I highly doubt that Voldemort would allow anyone on his team to drink it besides himself and he wouldn't be able to use it too often as it has detrimental effects.

    Yes HP magic has a more defined tool belt, so to speak, but it is not more open-ended than Middle Earth magic. It is defined into specific spells where as Middle earth magic is much more open-ended and vague.

    Ultimately anything not explicitly stated in writing is OACA, but I think the dementors issue is quite clear:
    -There is no evidence that dementors are specially resistant to suggestion or control.
    -Sauron is a master of suggestion and control.
    -Sauron masters many dark creature that are similar in nature to dementors

    Since we aren't the authors we have to go on what we do know and it all points in the direction of the dementors joining up with Sauron.

    Now, for something almost as important as air, food, and the sauron vs Voldemort thread: sleep.
    G'night.
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  30. - Top - End - #600
    Ogre in the Playground
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    Default Re: Sauron vs Voldemort

    Quote Originally Posted by Ditto View Post
    Now he's a fire spirit? Please stop being 'sure' of things unless they can demonstrably do such things.
    What do you what from us, man? By its' very nature as heroic poetry/unfinished fictional history, a lot of the Lord of the Rings mythos is fragmentary and contradictory. A lot of it relies on implication, inference and deduction. We know, in the context of LotR, that Sauron is incredibly powerful and irresistible directly; but we know it without knowing how many hit points he has, or without having a list of spells we know he can cast, or even without knowing what he looks like. Unfortunately, yes, we're going to have trouble bringing anything concrete, because there's nothing there. Most of Sauron is left to the imagination.

    Amusingly, even the LotR RPG doesn't give any stats for Sauron; it simply says, 'If your heroes are fighting Sauron directly, they have already lost'.

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