Sauron vs Voldemort

[Rowanomicon]

*sigh* I didn't think i needed to do this, but...

...+1 Shiny Flashlight.

Well Fiendfyre is just a +1 spark and AK is just a +1 green laser.
Seriously, if I could stab people in the face over the internet I would stab you once for every time you said "+1 Flashlight."
JUST BECAUSE THERE IS A VISIBLE EFFECT DOES NOT MEAN THAT IS WHAT CAUSES THE EFFECTS OF THE MAGIC.
I don't know about you, but I've never seen anyone die from green.
If I had to guess I'd say that the shininess that Gandalf uses to drive off the Nazgul is basically the flexing of his vast divine powers of pure good.

Oh and I'll re-phrase my last post:
Considering the nature of HP magic assuming that any Death Eater knows any spells we did not see them casting is just that: assuming.
In other words, sticking with the strictness of this thread, we have not evidence that the Death Eaters know any spells we did not see them cast.
Even if we can reasonably assume that they know some spells we didn't see them cast that is not evidence, it is still assumption.
Furthermore assuming that they can cast spell that we did not see at all, even if we saw similar spells, is beyond reasonable assumption and therefore completely out of the question for this debate.

[turkishproverb]

going OT...
I am a bit confused about the need to give merry amore important role than he has in the undoing of the nazgul...
he was instrumental in giving eowyn a chance to regain her concentration, posture and a few seconds to make her move, but appart from that I don't recall him being the one to somehow "fullfill the prophecy"...
Eowyn goes as far as to say, when the wraith states the wording that indeed she is "no mortal man, but a woman" (not exact quote but very close), and the author does nothing whatsoever to deny her the right to call the kill her own, nor gives any hint that this is not the exact interpretation of the misleading caused by the prophecy.
the whole thing, from a litterary point of view, is perfectly satisfying...
why do so many people have the urge of giving meriadoc the central role in fullfilling the prophecy when nothing in the writing suggest any of this kind?

Let me guess, you think this is a masogynistic thing.

Well, its not.

I can't quote exactly either (bot my copies in storage) but tolkiens narration goes on to ramble in typicle fashion that "so the witch king was destroyed by Eowyn, as she was not a man...with the participation of mariodoc, whom was not yet of age and also was not a man.(or something to that effect)

For me, at least, it fits the prophesy for either, but it was undoubtedly Eowyn's kill (WITH a magic weapon )

[Rutee]

Weak points in the armor? You mean the joints and thin parts? It's not rocket science... and when you have enough swords swarming (spinning with signficant amounts of force, yes, it's not like spinning fast is difficult...), they'll hit something eventually even if they *don't* break through outright for some reason.

Common sense to us and common sense to a wizard are VERY different things. And not only a wizard raised as one (The Weasleys have very little concept of how muggle ANYTHING works), but a wizard who actively despises everything muggles are. I don't think he understands how a pistol works or what it does (Granted, he's in Britain, and Britain has much stricter gun control then the US). Why would he know how archaic muggle tech works? Seriously, you're giving him FAR too much credit if you think he knows a damn thing about armor, or where to 'shoot the core', as it were. I have no doubt they'll hit Sauron, but I doubt they'll hit him effectively.

And uh, like I said; I was making an assumption that his armor is /only/ as effective as RL mundane Full Plate. I have no reason to believe that Sauron wields anything that isn't magic infused.

A wizard throws up a solid barrier of some sort (hell, summon material if you don't want to mold the dirt), and apparate away. That's the trick, s'all. Attacking and defending is hard for anyone. That's why you leave until you can attack without being pinned down... Matching action against action only matters when you have fixed targets trading blows, which is not what wizards do. If you have him pinned down with arrow fire, he'll start over from another angle.

You mean.. he would be conjuring a wall of stone-ish material every time? Aren't you the one who pointed out that just conjuring the *chairs* was a sign of serious talent at conjuring?

And I will ask you one last time.

How do wizards fight? Because see, in the books *I* read, wizards duel and are indeed basically fixed targets trading blows. Where do they fight in any other way? How do they fight in Ditto-land?

Moral fiber isn't needed to destroy the Ring. Willpower, accidents, evilness, logic... we've gone over various arguments on how to defy this "Don't kill me!!!!!" pulse the Ring sends out, but moral fiber wasn't the answer anyway.

What part of that discussion were you watching? Because the one I was paying attention to explicitly found that there's no logical reason to believe anything Voldy would have access to could destroy the ring.

I'm not even touching the +1 Shiny Flashlight thing. If a demigod's powers are summed up as +1 anything, Voldemort and co are stuck on cantrips.

But neither are, so it's not really relevant, is it?

[Rowanomicon]

I'm not even touching the +1 Shiny Flashlight thing. If a demigod's powers are summed up as +1 anything, Voldemort and co are stuck on cantrips.

But neither are, so it's not really relevant, is it?

Agreed. I thought this was generally accepted, but then he used it again and pushed my past my capability of ignoring it.

[WalkingTarget]

You seem to be missing the point; The Black Breath's range IS the Fear Aura's range. Those who are thrown to despair when a Nazgul has taken tot he field is taken by it (Or at least, that's my reading of it here. If I'm wrong, LotR-ites, lemme know!)

Long passage from RotK - The Houses of Healing - about Faramir:

"He is nearly spent," said Aragorn turning to Gandalf. "But this comes not from the wound. See! that is healing. Had he been smitten by some dart of the Nazgul, as you thought, he would have died that night. This hurt was given by some Southron arrow, I would guess. Who drew it forth? Was it kept?"

"I drew it forth," said Imrahil, "and staunched the wound. But I did not keep the arrow, for we had much to do. It was, as I remember, just such a dart as the Sourthrons use. Yet I believed that it came from the Shadows above, for else his fever and sickness were not to be understood; since the wound was not deep or vital. How then do you read the matter?"

"Weariness, grief for his father's mood, a wound, and over all the Black Breath," said Aragorn. "He is a man of staunch will, for already he had come close under the Shadow before ever he rode to battle on the out-walls. Slowly the dark must have crept on him, even as he fought and strove to hold his outpost."

I read this, especially the first paragraph, to mean that Faramir was not injured directly by a Nazgul ("he would have died that night"). I can't resolve that line with the hypothesis that the Nazgul just borrowed some arrows from the Southrons. Imrahil thought that it must have been from the Nazgul because he doesn't understand the Black Breath. A look at the index shows "Black Breath" 3 times, once in Bree to describe Merry's illness (by Aragorn), once in the passage I quoted above (again by Aragorn), and once in a poem from the Herbmaster of Minas Tirith (to Aragorn when he requested Athelas). Not many people even know about it, let alone what the actual cause is or how to treat it. Imrahil and the healers couldn't explain it without assuming that he'd been injured by the Nazgul, when it's likely he wasn't even that close to them (during that part of the fight, the Nazgul were all flying, probably out of bowshot from the defenders below). However, the other implication here is that without direct contact with the Nazgul (like Merry and Eowyn had) the effect of the Black Breath is more gradual and insidious. The fear effect is prompt, but the aching despair and sickness of the Black Breath takes some time to work it's stuff on you.

[Rowanomicon]

I agree, WT.
I would also say that if one is not "a man of staunch will" then the Black Breath with affect them faster.
Also slow is a relative term. It is slow compared to instant, but it still has devastating effect over the course of a battle.

[WalkingTarget]

I agree, WT.
I would also say that if one is not "a man of staunch will" then the Black Breath with affect them faster.
Also slow is a relative term. It is slow compared to instant, but it still has devastating effect over the course of a battle.

I agree, the length of a battle (let alone a drawn out campaign of hit-and-run tactics) seems to be long enough.

[WalkingTarget]

And uh, like I said; I was making an assumption that his armor is /only/ as effective as RL mundane Full Plate. I have no reason to believe that Sauron wields anything that isn't magic infused.

Magic infused, full plate? Heck, he's one of the greatest artisans in the entire cosmology of Middle-earth. I'd say any armor he makes for himself is probably better than that.

As for "whirling blades" or something like that, it's either sloppy description or just not very effective. Large circular motions are not the most difficult sword strokes to counter/avoid. Good sword fighting is more subtle than that.

[Rutee]

I was going to say "Just sloppy description, don't take it seriously"..

But you know? If I don't think Voldemort can Shoot the Core with full plate, why would I have believe he has any concept of swordplay? I don't know if I pointed it out, but he's actually really badly off animating swords. I mean, it's got high coolness factor, but he's better off with something that's designed for penetration, like a crossbow bolt, or a large bludgeon, like a boulder. It's just better for Voldemort, really :P

Assuming Curses aren't, and as stated... Sauron can cancel divine class magic. I don't think a direct curse is, alone, in his favor. I keep figuring a combined assault would overcome that, but it's hypothesis and speculation, nothing more.

LotR Blob

That does seem to support your hypothesis.. and yes, over the course of a campaign, it's got time to kick in. Sounds like Voldemort's tenuous grip on victory is slipping further >.>

And good god, see. That's why I like HP better. I can handle complicated writing, obviously, but I prefer the complicated writing be reserved for the important passages..

[merrja666]

Bear in mind that Sauron is one of the Valar, and second only to Morgoth. He has an army of Balrogs (as they now bow to him, now that Morgoth is gone) and lots of Ringwraiths. Note: the Witchking will kill Voldemort, because of the prophecy about him. Again and again. He also has a couple of hundred thousand orcs and goblins at his command. (Not counting the Urak-hia, and the Spawn of Ungoliant and other assosialted Evils, like Cave Trolls, for instance)

Also, as the Ring corrupts people, Voldemort will be corrupted in an instant, and will not be able to destroy it or let anyone else destroy it.

So, Voldemort finds Ring, get corrupted, puts it on, Witchking finds him Witchking kills him. Wait for Voldemort to regenerate. Sauron finds him with his Eye. Witchking finds him. Witchking kills him.... (ad nauseam)

[Ditto]

Flashlights can annoy you; laser pointers can blind you.
The most impressive thing Gandalf did in the trilogy (IMO) was drive off the Nazgul. I'm one of those of the opinion that as of LOTR, Gandalf did very little to assert his awesomeness as a wizard. (I'm sorry my line aggravates you so. That shall be the last of it!) Again, I've never read the Silmarillion, but Gandalf never did a whole lot to impress me. Since I now understand he has the Ring of Ultimate Destiny, that gives him points for, I dunno, putting the plots of Men and Elves into motion. Good game, that.

Anyone in Harry Potter can cast any spell. There's no question of knowing it, only proficiency. In LOTR, you have to demonstrate you're capable of weilding 'Magic', a vague sort of universal power source that only certain preordained folks can tap into at all. Those who can tap into it (y'know, the ones we keep calling 'powerful casters') have an extremely ill-defined skill set delineating what exactly this niftiness allows them to do. Therefore, it's perfectly fair to say, "I'm sure that they are, indeed, 'powerful'. What does LOTR magic do?" With HP magic, however, you know exactly what all spells do. Most are of equal strength regardless of the caster. Those who are not, you can quibble over that. But everyone learns the same skillset at Hogwarts, and even those spells that are not covered as part of the curriculum are available to everyone to have in their repertoire.

Eowyn gets the kill, but it just as easily *could* have been Merry. The prophecy fits them both. No big, though - as Rutee says, Eowyn's the winner.

I don't know anything about armor and I figured out "This stuff is hard and prevents me from touching him. I should try to hit the spots that don't have armor on them!" ...it's not rocket science. And he wouldn't be going for much precision, anyway, with a barrage of whirling blades. By ‘whirling blades’ I do not mean large, round strokes – that would be more complicated maneuvering than is necessary. I’m talking buzzsaw style. Spinning is not hard. He could launch a bunch of crossbow bolts, too, but we don’t know the particular effect of piercing wounds on Sauron. Slashing is what worked before, so I left it at that. On tactics again: wizards fighting wizards duel, yes. If I were a wizard fighting a non-stationary target, I would be non-stationary myself.

Conjuring is tough for *12-year-olds*. Conjuring is by its nature (in HP) temporary, but not inordinately strenuous. A conjuration will expire in HP just like it would in D&D. That said, it's permanent enough to last for the duration of a battle.

[Greebo]

Actually, it has more to do with teh fact that MErry hadn't turned 33 yet, and thus was not an adult by Shire standards.

Um, dude, he was 36 when they set out from Buckland. Check your facts...PLEASE.

He was a Hobbit. Hobbits may be distant cousins to Men, but they are not of the same race as Men.

Honestly, the Tolkien world is incredibly well documented. It should be, he spent 13+ years IIRC developing it before he released FotR. There's no excuse for making such erroneous statements with the air of an expert.

[Greebo]

The most impressive thing Gandalf did in the trilogy (IMO) was drive off the Nazgul. I'm one of those of the opinion that as of LOTR, Gandalf did very little to assert his awesomeness as a wizard. (I'm sorry my line aggravates you so. That shall be the last of it!) Again, I've never read the Silmarillion, but Gandalf never did a whole lot to impress me. Since I now understand he has the Ring of Ultimate Destiny, that gives him points for, I dunno, putting the plots of Men and Elves into motion. Good game, that.

Oh yeah, he didn't do much...

Lets see...
...magic imbued fireworks
...magical battle atop weathertop (seen from afar)
...magical battle with wolves and wargs at the foot of the misty mountains
...providing fire for the fellowship on the pass of Caradras (sp?)
...Providing light in the mines of moria
...oh yeah, fighting and *defeating* a Balrog of Morgoth
...dying and returning from beyond the western sea

... little stuff like that just in the first half...

Eowyn gets the kill, but it just as easily *could* have been Merry. The prophecy fits them both. No big, though - as Rutee says, Eowyn's the winner.

Honestly, would you please READ THE BOOKS and stop spouting off about that which you do not know? The movies are NOT credible references on these matters:

From wiki on the WitchKing

Théoden had just slain a leader of the Southrons when the Witch-king attacked him. The advancing Rohirrim's horses panicked as his fell beast attacked. Théoden's horse, Snowmane, became frightened, was struck by an arrow, and crushed his master. As the Witch-king hovered over Théoden, Éowyn, disguised as a man, stood in his way. The Witch-king broke her shield and her left arm with a blow from his mace, but as he prepared to deliver the final blow, Merry plunged his enchanted sword into the back of the Witch-king's knee. Merry's sword had been forged by the men of Arnor long ago, when the Lord of the Nazgûl had been its sorcerer king. The sword was imbued with powerful magic against the Witch-king himself, but it had lain unused in a barrow for centuries until it was discovered and given to Merry by Tom Bombadil.

In Merry's hand, the sword penetrated the magical spells protecting the Witch-king and caused his stroke to pass wide of Éowyn, leaving him hunched over her. With her remaining strength, she quickly rose and thrust her sword into his invisible face; as her sword shattered, his clothing fell to the ground and he vanished with a wailing cry, passing away from this world, thereby fulfilling the prophecy of Glorfindel from many centuries before: he had fallen not by the hands of a "man", but by those of a woman and a (male) hobbit (though Tolkien properly defines Hobbits as an offshoot of Men).

So passed the sword of the Barrow-downs, work of Westernesse. But glad would he have been to know its fate who wrought it slowly long ago in the North-kingdom when the Dúnedain were young, and chief among their foes was the dread realm of Angmar and its sorcerer king. No other blade, not though mightier hands had wielded it, would have dealt that foe a wound so bitter, cleaving the undead flesh, breaking the spell that knit his unseen sinews to his will.

The last paragraph is from the book itself. Emphasis mine - with reference to MERRY and the sword he carried.

Eowyn didn't have a chance without the aid of a hobbit.

[WalkingTarget]

Bear in mind that Sauron is one of the Valar, and second only to Morgoth. He has an army of Balrogs (as they now bow to him, now that Morgoth is gone) and lots of Ringwraiths.

Sauron is one of the Maiar which are much less powerful than the Valar (note that there are only 12 {edit - 14 + Melkor, correction prompted by the next post} Valar but there are a lot of Maiar). However, amongst the Maiar, Sauron is pretty much at the top. Balrogs are nasty, but depending on which version you listen to, there's hardly an "army" of them (Silmarillion version: there aren't very many of them but they were mighty indeed, only 2 defeated (3 if you count Durin's Bane in LotR) and each time their opponent died in the doing, older Book of Lost Tales version: there were more of them, but they were "less terrible and... more destructible.") Even if there are any others left after Durin's Bane was killed, there's no guarantee that they'd want to listen to Sauron as he's not that much higher than them to begin with. At the end of the first age, Sauron repented and was spared (whether earnestly or not is not answered), it's not likely that the Balrogs did even that much so they either hid or were destroyed.

Note: the Witchking will kill Voldemort, because of the prophecy about him. Again and again. He also has a couple of hundred thousand orcs and goblins at his command. (Not counting the Urak-hia, and the Spawn of Ungoliant and other assosialted Evils, like Cave Trolls, for instance)

Prophecy is basically out of place in this discussion, as has been pointed out on the last few pages (short version: the prophecy is about how the plot of the book unfolds, if the plot is removed, then there's no reason that "hand of man" needs to apply). Granted, the WK is very well protected, but using prophecy as an argument here is sort of cheating. The question of whether HP magic is able to subvert the WK's magical protections is another matter.

Also, as the Ring corrupts people, Voldemort will be corrupted in an instant, and will not be able to destroy it or let anyone else destroy it.

Voldemort is already pretty well corrupted (the ring's "corruption" is by turning one's mind to thoughts of selfishness and domination of others, which he already has in spades without it). The point has already been brought up that he wouldn't be able to destroy it, but we've kind of gotten to the point where involving the ring in the discussion makes things overly complicated so it's largely ignored in recent pages.

So, Voldemort finds Ring, get corrupted, puts it on, Witchking finds him Witchking kills him. Wait for Voldemort to regenerate. Sauron finds him with his Eye. Witchking finds him. Witchking kills him.... (ad nauseam)

Sauron might have a bit more trouble with the finding than you imply. If it was easy for Sauron to find things just by desiring to do so, then finding his ring again would have been trivial.

[dehro]

Bear in mind that Sauron is one of the Valar, and second only to Morgoth. He has an army of Balrogs (as they now bow to him, now that Morgoth is gone) and lots of Ringwraiths. Note: the Witchking will kill Voldemort, because of the prophecy about him. Again and again. He also has a couple of hundred thousand orcs and goblins at his command. (Not counting the Urak-hia, and the Spawn of Ungoliant and other assosialted Evils, like Cave Trolls, for instance)

Also, as the Ring corrupts people, Voldemort will be corrupted in an instant, and will not be able to destroy it or let anyone else destroy it.

So, Voldemort finds Ring, get corrupted, puts it on, Witchking finds him Witchking kills him. Wait for Voldemort to regenerate. Sauron finds him with his Eye. Witchking finds him. Witchking kills him.... (ad nauseam)

ahem... most of what you state is inaccurate or largely overestimating. there where 14 Valar, (15 if you count melkor), Sauron is NOT one of them, although he is probably the most powerfull amongst the Maiar (one of the most powerfull, at any rate)
Balrogs...in the third era we know of only one (are we counting him in or not? he gets killed by gandalf halfway through the journey..but this would not happen against voldy, since gandalf is not going to be there)
the armies of Sauron we know of ammount to about 100something thousand. there are supposedly others, but we do not know their scope.
the nazgul are 9 (more than enough, but still less a definite number)

all said and done, these troops of Sauron are more than enough to take care of Voldy.

about Gandalf; he is considered the wisest of the maiar from the very beginning, when he travels amongst the elves invisible or in elven form, sparking in their harts new thoughts and ideas to better Arda.
he was chosen by the valar (where Saruman volunteered) to go help the elves and mankind against Sauron, with the specific limitation of having to do so in human form, through council, lore and "motivational speeches"...means far below his actual power... and even so he manages to trash a balrog, break Sauron's staff, comunicate with Gwahir, Galadriel and Shadowfax at great distances, use some pretty light effects, scare away several of the nazguls, give the water around rivendel the shape of horses and riders...
about swirling swords...(who's idea whas that anyway?)... take 2-3 swords and make them swirl by whatever means you like, at whatever speed you like...then make them home in on the same target and let me know how many times they crash into one another and how many times at least one of them manages to deal real damage to or even touch the target of choice. do not even try to use only one, because Sauron was the chieftain of Melkor's army, a warlord..he is unlikely to just sit and watch without using a sword, a shield, a handy corpse or some magic to avoid a blow.

and, ditto, your last post is to me the confirmation that this whole debate is strongly biased not by how you, I or anyone else considers the "skill and power bonusses" when comparing HP and LOTR... but by the perspective.
I'm trying to use the perspective from a writer/reader point of view, while you use that of a RPG player.
when you try to save the day for Voldy ( just accept it, he's gonna die ) what you ask yourself is:
If I had his powers and skills, if I was to devise tactics and maneuvres for him and his minions, what would I do??
and from there you construct your entire strategy
I, and I feel most of the "LOTR WINS faction, on the contrary ask myself:
given the character, what we know about them, the skills written about in the books and the "psychology and motivation" of the different people on the battlefield, what do I think the different characters will do?

when you say

If I were a wizard fighting a non-stationary target, I would be non-stationary myself.

what you really should be thinking is:
"given the character and actions of Draco Malfoy, given what he fights for, believes in, has to gain or lose depending on his different courses of action, what would he do?"
would he jump around and fight like hell? would he jump around and flee after seeing the overwhelming forces? would he stand and fight (or die) because he doesn't believe a buch of orcs could ever harm him? would he turn sides?

after you've done this for Draco Malfoy you could do it for most of the characters you know something about other than their name..and make an educated guess about those you know less of..
then try the same thing for the LOTR characters and see what happens
you will find out that character, commitment, personal gain, numbers and statistics will have a completely different meaning than when you merelly try to put numbers on the two armies and proceed by sums and subtractions using your logic and not that of the character

the other way would be for the likes of me to try your way of looking at the same picture...and start coming up with tactics for the Mordor army that are possible because of plot failure and loopholes, because I use 20th century logic and knowledge and a big -ing army with all the statistics and possible alternatives that literature and modern common sense allow me.

either way Voldy seems to be screwed...

the whole thing looks a bit like a bad dream originated by reading the battle for gobwin knob....


ah..I almost forgot, it is true, Merry was essential in breaking the enchantment and giving eowyn time and an edge...but on his own he would never have beaten the ringwraith, having vanquished his sword...he was unarmed half the size of the nazgul and could never have resisted him, had he turned in his direction.
eowyn on the other hand might have pulled it of even without merry (debatable, I realize, the contrary however isn't, I think), since the prophecy was still "on her side" and she had the skills, phisical capacity (size) and commitment to at least try something.
in other words, I'm trying to score a point even when I know that what I say is only half true and all of it is debatable...

[Ditto]

I’m not saying Gandalf did *no* magic, I’m saying the stuff we saw was pretty parlor trick-y. Light, Craft: Fireworks, Burning hands, Dimension door (he bailed on the dwarves when the goblins attacked in The Hobbit)… hardly the stuff of legend. Does the book give a description of the battle with the Balrog? I’d talk about the movie, but that’s erroneous and cool-looking. Pending that info… perhaps he broke his shadowy neck in the fall?

According to the final drafts of Tolkein’s manuscripts, there were about 7 Balrogs, and ‘certainly no more than 12’ IIRC. How many Maiar are there? Wikipedia only lists a dozen or so, but that might just have been the named ones.

If Voldemort got the Ring, he’d be able to use it to control the Nazgul… but never mind that train of thought, again, because the Ring isn’t in this battle and the Eye can’t home in on people.

[Greebo]

Gandalf talks about the battle after his return, in The Two Towers.

But as with most other things related to Magic and Tolkien, Tolkien's presentation of it is subdued. Tolkien didn't go for flash, but by no means should one infer from the lack of special effects that the magic wasn't extremely powerful. Melian's Girdle, for example...

[turkishproverb]

Um, dude, he was 36 when they set out from Buckland. Check your facts...PLEASE.

He was a Hobbit. Hobbits may be distant cousins to Men, but they are not of the same race as Men.

Honestly, the Tolkien world is incredibly well documented. It should be, he spent 13+ years IIRC developing it before he released FotR. There's no excuse for making such erroneous statements with the air of an expert.

air of an expert?

i made a mistake, based on remembering an event i misread last time i read the trilogy. sue me.

[Greebo]

air of an expert?

i made a mistake, based on remembering an event i misread last time i read the trilogy. sue me.

My attorney, a Mister R. I. Pemoff, Esquire, of Dewey, Cheatum and Howe, will be in touch!

[The_Snark]

I’m not saying Gandalf did *no* magic, I’m saying the stuff we saw was pretty parlor trick-y. Light, Craft: Fireworks, Burning hands, Dimension door (he bailed on the dwarves when the goblins attacked in The Hobbit)… hardly the stuff of legend. Does the book give a description of the battle with the Balrog? I’d talk about the movie, but that’s erroneous and cool-looking. Pending that info… perhaps he broke his shadowy neck in the fall?

It's not entirely erroneous... they survived by falling into a lake, which extinguished the Balrog's fire and turned it into a dark oozey demon. The Balrog fled up through the passages, with Gandalf following because he had no idea how to get out anymore. The Balrog burst into flames again on the peak, the two duel again, and Gandalf slays the Balrog and is slain. The movie was actually pretty accurate on this point, I think.

Magic in Lord of the Rings doesn't tend to be flashy, especially used against people who don't use magic themselves. The most powerful magic often takes the form of a contest of will; this would include counterspelling and attempting to crush or stave off another's will. That's one of the main disadvantages the HP folks have—when Sauron uses magic against them, it turns into a simple battle of willpower, which Sauron will win.

As an example of counterspelling, I'd point you towards Moria, where Gandalf stayed behind to seal the door against the goblins. It worked until "something" (the Balrog, but Gandalf hadn't identified it yet) came. He described the counterspell as nearly breaking him, and to reinforce the spell on the door he used a Word of Command. The door couldn't take the strain and fell in, caving a thousand tons of rock onto Balin's Tomb. The Balrog, interestingly, managed to escape.

Oh yes, and he did bail out on the dwarves during a goblin ambush. On the other hand, he killed two of them with a flash and vanished, all in the space of an instant.

According to the final drafts of Tolkein’s manuscripts, there were about 7 Balrogs, and ‘certainly no more than 12’ IIRC. How many Maiar are there? Wikipedia only lists a dozen or so, but that might just have been the named ones.

There were considerably more Maiar, but it's not really relevant here... As for the number of Balrogs, it does vary, but it tends toward there being a fair number in the First Age, with most of them destroyed at the end of that age. There wouldn't be very many left at all, and most would have buried themselves deep underground (like the Moria Balrog was before the dwarves found it). Sauron's power to command them is in question as well, although they would have likely allied themselves to him... so we may as well leave them out of this, except maybe for the one Balrog in Moria.

[Ditto]

Magic being subtle is fine. You still have to demonstrate an effect. I'm fine with LOTRers having the most powerful will in existence if you'd like, but that's not useful... for example, Gandalf nearly lost the battle of wills with the Balrog. The Balrog lost... and? He stood up and walked through the rubble and roared and continued on. He didn't seem any worse for the wear. I don't have another example of this contest of wills in my mind... could someone draw up another one for comparison?

[dehro]

I don't have another example of this contest of wills in my mind... could someone draw up another one for comparison?

think of the palantiri
it takes Aragorn all of his willpower to bind one to his desires, and to escape the control of Sauron. Denethor fails and becomes confounded and, finally, utterly nuts. Saruman looses it, Pippin, narrowly escapes dire consequences.
the very creation of the ring is an act of magic and power, since Sauron succeeds in binding the other rings to the one.
Sauron can not look into Lorien, because Galadriel blocks him out with her personal power enhanced by the power of her ring...
when gandalf first stops the balrog the sheer power he expresses repells the balrog and shatters the bridge they both stand on.
every time Frodo feels the urge to put on the ring, what happens is a battle of "will" between him and the ring/sauron, and it always leave Frodo exhausted...
when Gandalf has Grima wormtoungue cower in front of him, it is not fear that brings grima on the floor but the very power Gandalf expresses.
The high lords of the elves have the capacity to move their liege not just by the words they say but also by the power of their voice and the "aura" of their appearence...Saruman uses the same kind of power... Sauron and Melkor did the same...it was not just what they said, but how they said it that blotted out the common sense and intelligence of their victims (feanor, Theoden, the Naugrimm....)
do I really need to continue?

LOTR is intended to be an epic saga, but spans over centuries and millennia, and therefore the manifestations of power and magic are forcibly dilluted over the years, but their effects are not less drammatic and important because of this.
LOTR is, after all, only the final chapter of a elvenlifes-long saga, and a chapter where most of the greatest feats of power, magic, craftmanship and prowess have already been displayed and have entered the realm of legend.
but we must not forget that the very protagonists of these legends, Sauron, Luthien, Melkor, Cirdan, Galadriel, are also the very same people that are in the final chapter (or their direct ancestors)...so it's reasonable to assume that if anything of their power has gone, it has been replaced by wisdom, knowledge, guile and, why not, coolness

[pendell]

Reading through this ... I'm sorry if this was covered before ...

1) A better match up might be Voldemort and the Witch-King (Sauron's chief ringwraith). Both started off as human and became immortal through dark magic. Both are powerful villains who have been thwarted a couple of times. Both have reputations for being powerful magicians. And both are amongst the most ruthless beings in their worlds.

Who would win that fight?

2) Someone commented about the absurdity of Gandalf, 'the most dangerous being you could meet', using a sword to fight ....

**** WARNING! MAJOR TOLKIEN GEEKERY AHEAD!***

Still here, are you? Better get some no-doze ...


A) In the Silmarrillion there are accounts of full-blown magical wars fought between Sauron's boss and the Valar (really, really powerful good guys), and in most of those places the grass will never grow again. Where they still exist at all. The War of Wrath broke the entire western edge of the continent. New seas in some places, other seas drained. Mountain ranges leveled. The Misty Mountains raised solely as an obstacle to the Valar. And so forth.

Magic in Middle-Earth is *very* powerful. So powerful, in fact, that there is a real possibility that all life on the planet will be destroyed if it is used.

That, perhaps, is why the Valar do not oppose Sauron with their full capabilities. Rather, they practice unconventional warfare, sending the equivalent of special forces or spetznaz to train the local humans in insurrection against the Dark, rather than attacking directly.

B)Which explains Gandalf's mission (described in the Appendix "Of the Istari -- Appendix C, isn't it?) He is instructed not to fight 'power with power, or force with force', but only to encourage and inspire resistance to evil. As much as possible, humans are to do the work.

And that's why Gandalf uses a sword. It's not that he doesn't have greater power at his disposal .. .but if he pulls it out, things start escalating very rapidly. And so Gandalf and Sauron both hold off on their more potent magics, for the same reason the cold war in the real world was not fought with nuclear bombs. Both sides want there to be something worth ruling over when the war is over.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[purplearcanist]

What would happen in a duel:

Voldemart casts killing curse.

*has no effect on sauron*

Sauron swings his mace at Voldemart. Voldemart dies.

or

Voldemart joins sauron.

[The_Snark]

Magic being subtle is fine. You still have to demonstrate an effect. I'm fine with LOTRers having the most powerful will in existence if you'd like, but that's not useful... for example, Gandalf nearly lost the battle of wills with the Balrog. The Balrog lost... and? He stood up and walked through the rubble and roared and continued on. He didn't seem any worse for the wear. I don't have another example of this contest of wills in my mind... could someone draw up another one for comparison?

The entire passageway collapsed, actually, delaying the Balrog considerably. There was actually a fairly long period of time between the Chamber of Mazarbul and the Bridge; something on the order of an hour, although I don't have the book on me.

And that was a counterspell. It wasn't meant to have any effect on the Balrog at all. Imagine the same, but with Sauron attempting to bend Death Eaters to his will.

Other examples... let's see, Sauron tried to compell Frodo to keep on the Ring at the end of the Fellowship so that he could locate him; he only failed because Gandalf interfered. Then, of course, there's the long-distance corruption of Saruman and Denethor, both strong-willed individuals dedicated to opposing him. They were miles away. As was Frodo, actually. When his enemies are further away, it takes longer, and he needs some sort of connection; when they're close, he doesn't.

[Rutee]

Last reply til I finish my character for a Post-to-play game, but god damn, this is going to be a doozy.

Flashlights can annoy you; laser pointers can blind you.

Yeah, I can imagine that's a problem if you don't recognize you can shut your eyes.

Anyone in Harry Potter can cast any spell. There's no question of knowing it, only proficiency. In LOTR, you have to demonstrate you're capable of weilding 'Magic', a vague sort of universal power source that only certain preordained folks can tap into at all. Those who can tap into it (y'know, the ones we keep calling 'powerful casters') have an extremely ill-defined skill set delineating what exactly this niftiness allows them to do. Therefore, it's perfectly fair to say, "I'm sure that they are, indeed, 'powerful'. What does LOTR magic do?" With HP magic, however, you know exactly what all spells do. Most are of equal strength regardless of the caster. Those who are not, you can quibble over that. But everyone learns the same skillset at Hogwarts, and even those spells that are not covered as part of the curriculum are available to everyone to have in their repertoire.

Wait, since when did this happen? Harry Potter DOES make it a question of knowing it. You can not cast a spell if you do not know its Wand movement (Book 1 goes into a fair amount of detail on this with the levitation charm, as does Book 2 with Lockhart and his counterspelling. Admittedly, Lockhart is an idiot. I logically deduce that if a starter spell for beginners requires specific movement, most spells do.) and the incant. If you know neither, your spell does nothing, or worse, backfires. Case in point: Ron trying to turn Scabbers yellow. He had a fake incant and no knowledge of any such wand motion. Nothing happens. What the hell do you think the school is /for/? Why do you think the children were worried about not passing their Defense Against The Dark Arts OWLs for lack of preparation? Provide for me a source that all HP Magic spells are known at birth (Making it a hideously stagnant world) and I will concede the point.

I don't know anything about armor and I figured out "This stuff is hard and prevents me from touching him. I should try to hit the spots that don't have armor on them!" ...it's not rocket science. And he wouldn't be going for much precision, anyway, with a barrage of whirling blades. By ‘whirling blades’ I do not mean large, round strokes – that would be more complicated maneuvering than is necessary. I’m talking buzzsaw style. Spinning is not hard. He could launch a bunch of crossbow bolts, too, but we don’t know the particular effect of piercing wounds on Sauron. Slashing is what worked before, so I left it at that. On tactics again: wizards fighting wizards duel, yes. If I were a wizard fighting a non-stationary target, I would be non-stationary myself.

This isn't Gradius. The weak points don't glow red while a voice shouts "Shoot the Core!" Voldemort has to figure out where those weak points are when he has not even a tiny iota of knowledge about armor, metallurgy, or anything else of the work. *WE* know where those weak spots are, in theory (Since again, Sauron IS one of the greatest artificers on Middle Earth; It's not outside the realm of logic for him to have armor that simply doesn't have weak seams.) We (presumably) have taken enough of an interest in the work to know. I repeat;
Voldemort. Has. Not. He despises mugglekind. Wizards in general fail to understand them if they're not born from them. He has no reason to even learn what his contemporary muggles can do to him. Why would he know what the muggles of ancient past who are long dead could have theoretically done? And even if he did hold an interest, why armor? His spells penetrate it just the same.

And how is Voldemort going to understand swordplay well enough to do any complicated maneuvers with the swords? Did Sean Connery come by and give him a training montage? This stuff isn't inborn to evil villains, you know.

Seriously, you're better off with AP stuff (Crossbow bolts and the like.. not like Voldemort knows what /those/ are for either) or huge bludgeons. Why do you insist on swords that the guy can't use, and even if he could, can't use effectively? I posited it as a hypothetical tactic for the HP-verse (Where no one wears armor and Protego will apparently block anything if it goes off anyway, so the method of an attack's delivery is not relevant), not a useful attack against Sauron, because I know exactly /why/ it's not a useful attack against Sauron.

And uh, yeah, slashing worked before. When done with a legendary sword. Wielded by an absurdly skilled swordsman. Voldemort isn't an absurdly skilled swordsman (Skilled mage, sure, but not a swordsman) and he doesn't have a legendary sword. Tell me this is sinking in at some point.

Magic being subtle is fine. You still have to demonstrate an effect. I'm fine with LOTRers having the most powerful will in existence if you'd like, but that's not useful... for example, Gandalf nearly lost the battle of wills with the Balrog. The Balrog lost... and? He stood up and walked through the rubble and roared and continued on. He didn't seem any worse for the wear. I don't have another example of this contest of wills in my mind... could someone draw up another one for comparison?

The interpretation I'm getting in is "Gandalf lost (Which forces the doors open, as his spell sealing them is shatterred), but almost lost big time (What happens when one's will is broken? I dunno, but it's pretty clear that he loses and his spell goes splat, if I'm reading this right..)

[warty goblin]

Laser pointers may be able to blind, but flashlights can be used to beat people to death.

Transfiguration is basically never used in combat in HP for some reason. Flitwick animating the armor is the only case of this known, and that was a defensive action where the defenders had time to prepare- it never is seen to be used on offense. That it isn't forces me to conclude that there must be some reason for this. Perhaps it is difficult, or takes a lot of time, or the transfiguration of an unwilling target is very difficult (the only time we see it done, its the fake Moody on Draco Malfoy, Moody has the advantage of suprise, being a fairly powerful wizard, and also having lots more experience, not things that can be counted on reliably in combat situations). Whatever the reason, I'm basically going to dismiss any transfiguration based offensive arguments on the basis that they seem to be ineffective in actual combat.

As for "Spinning swords" taking down Sauron, I somehow doubt it. Sauron was defeated by three of the greatest warriors ever to live, weilding a very impressive arsenal of magical and enchanted weapons- and a magically animated weapon does not equal an enchanted weapon, merely a weapon guided by magic. A conventional sword being whirled by magic will be worth exactly nothing, for one thing there's a fairly good chance that the heat shock of hitting Sauron will simply shatter the blade, or it won't be able to penetrate Sauron's armor, or Sauron will simply counter the animating spell, likely exploding the blade (see: door to the chamber of Marzurbal). Same thing goes for boulders, just counterspell and shatter out of the air.

Voldermort's minions are forced to flee from three orcs with bows- there are at minimum tens of thousands of orcs, and under a hundred Death Eaters. Voldermort really cannot hope to damage Sauron. Even if Sauron and co. cannot manage to hunt down and kill the Death Eaters and their leader, the group will disolve due to their inability to do meaningful damage to their enemy.

[Rutee]

You don't have to transfigure the swords. I used "Animate" sloppily, sorry. You just have to use the levitation charm to manipulate them mid air (Or a more advanced version that allows movement with force, if the levitate charm doesn't). It'd be more like using a sword as a projectile (Which has a huge coolness factor, less effectiveness factor) then animating it. I would /think/ that can be done on the fly.

Even within my own example, Transfiguration was more to come up with the ammunition (Taking inspiration from a particular music video I like.. if I can transmute matter into other matter with no limits, why should I carry /anything/ I want to use on me? Just carry a few boxes of toothpicks, turn those into whatever I need them for.)

[The_Snark]

I doubt that animated crossbow bolts would do much either. Let's examine Grond, which was warded so that arrows fired at it would shatter harmlessly and so that the defenders couldn't set it afire. That plus a lot of other enchantments, but those are the ones that are relevant right now.

In fact... that, plus the demonstrated ability to shatter even magical artifacts via spells (Gandalf destroying Saruman's staff), pretty much renders the animated objects tactic useless even if it could be employed in a hurry.

[dehro]

the only option in this direction is if it could be possible to litterally give life (and intelligence) to the weapon of choice so that it fights for itself and also manages to avoid the other similar objects launched in the attack.

any other manipulation of a bunch of objects in a pattern of attacking (and most of all harmfull) maneuvers is very very difficult, if at all possible without having the sodding "things" crash into each other...
and since we are not talking of "moving stuff from here to there" but talking of using a series of objects to maim/club/hurt an opponent that is a highly skilled fighter (he fought against valar and maiar) and magic wielder, probably surrounded by defensive spells and more "earthly" protections...

I really don't see the point in continuing to examine this (im)possibility.