Sauron vs Voldemort

[WrstDmEvr]

Sauron deserves to be a better evil guy, because he actually appears evil in the book. Voldemort, however, is a just another wannabe world dominator who happens to enjoy misery and pain.

Down to a finer point, let us assume The Killing Curse is an Epic level equivilent to Power Word, Kill. Also, that Sauron is deathless as long as the Ring is intact. Clear win for Sauron, as even if he is killed he can simply come back and fight again. Also, the arrows from the orcs would be easily enough to destroy all the Death Eaters before they even got close enough to attack the orcs.

[Jayabalard]

He's a big fan of modern, pseudo-fantasy like Harry Potter, I prefer classic high fantasy like the Wheel of Time.

"pseudo" and "classic" both seem poor choices of words...

Harry Potter fits pretty clearly into the Fantasy Genre...

And I have no idea how the word "classic" could be used in reference to the Wheel of Time, especially when comparing it to a book that was published less than 7 years later.

[Fan]

Sauron deserves to be a better evil guy, because he actually appears evil in the book. Voldemort, however, is a just another wannabe world dominator who happens to enjoy misery and pain.

Down to a finer point, let us assume The Killing Curse is an Epic level equivilent to Power Word, Kill. Also, that Sauron is deathless as long as the Ring is intact. Clear win for Sauron, as even if he is killed he can simply come back and fight again. Also, the arrows from the orcs would be easily enough to destroy all the Death Eaters before they even got close enough to attack the orcs.

Um dude dont you know about the shield spell it kind of seperates you from everything with a potential to harm you so arrows are useless and what are the orcs gonna do they have a -2 will save any way

[warty goblin]

Um dude dont you know about the shield spell it kind of seperates you from everything with a potential to harm you so arrows are useless and what are the orcs gonna do they have a -2 will save any way

And as long as the shield spell is up, a Harry Potter wizard has exactly no offensive potential. Also, the barrier must be at least somewhat permiable to physical objects, otherwise prolonged use of the spell would lead to suffocation and overheating- something which I believe goes unmentioned in the books., This suggests that it would be of somewhat limited use against arrows- even if it does deflect them, orcs can just camp the wizard until he runs out of air, or if it does in fact allow some things through, the orcs gang rush the shield (while keeping a few back with bows to force him to maintain the shield), pile through, and start doing some experimental surgury on the wizard.

[EvilElitest]

And on good news, come tommorow, i'll be able to rejoin this plesent talk with even more points. Hey, besides Ditto, anybody else think Mr. V would win?
from,
EE

[Ditto]

A quick rehash for WrstDmEvr: Getting killed at all is a clear lose for Sauron. Them's the rules. (Same goes for Voldemort.) Arrows from orcs can shoot things far away, if they're there when the arrow arrives. Wizards can get close to the orcs in the blink of an eye. In defense mode, creatures are indeed not in offense mode. That's why a wizard leaves, to start over from another angle with offense mode again. If he has to defense himself up again, then repeat.

HP magic is certainly not known from birth; you do learn the motions and incantations. The reason I say that you do not need to learn the magic is because nothing about the magic in you changes due to learning that spell. HP magic is much like D&D in that Magic is a force out there that, if you ask nicely and correctly, can do whatever you ask it to. In LOTR, you have to channel your essence into whatever feat you attempt to effect. That's a far cry from having to look something up in a book. All the inherent-magic work is instilled at birth insofar as 'You're a wizard. You can use a wand for much fun now', but beyond that it's elementary.

What great knowledge do you need about armor? I'm not talking about key stress points, I mean that "Look! There are no plates in the armpits and between the fingers and at the base of the neck!" Those sorts of things. Voldemort knows what armor is, it's not like he's so unfamliar with the *concept* that he won't realize a solid metal outfit is going to interfere with slashing attempts. (Likewise, they have arrows in HP...) As for the sword thing, I'll restate it outright: Buzzsaws. Buzzsaws do not require skill to wield, since they cause hurt no matter which way they impact. I'm suggesting he spin swords rapidly so as to effectively display as buzzsaws, but heck let's just use buzzsaws. Being surrounded with buzzsaws is bad news. I understand animated weapons are not magical weapons, and I've never indicated otherwise. S'cool, guys.

Controlling the attack is not a problem. There's even a specific spell for it - Oppugno. That's Latin for "I attack". It instructs the conjured creatures or items to swarm the target creature. (HP6, Ch14.)

Wasn't the attack that poofed Sauron a desperate last-resort slash with a broken magical sword? That's different from a master swordsman hitting a critical.

It has been shown that someone can sunder one item (of unremarkable size) with concentration and a gaze. How's that work with scads of swords and giant rocks? He most definitely has to get a bead on the thing to break it, and that trick Vader did on Luke in TESB worked well enough when he was using one hunk of metal at a time. Voldemort can multiple that by an order of magnitude... you can't concentrate your attention on all of those things long enough to cause sunderage.

Transfiguration is used in combat in HP5 with Dumbledore, as previously cited. Flitwick's armor trick would take time because it's a lot of suits of armor, and you'd probably have to be practiced in that sort of thing to nab all of them at once with the spell. Moody surprising Malfoy had nothing to do wth its effectiveness - if he had blocked it, that's something, but the spell hit him, so he became a ferret. Percy uses a transfiguration bolt as an explicitly offensive spell to give the Minister spiky growths all over. (That, with Moody's example as well, absolutely cements transfiguration's place in the duelling arsenal, IMO.) Also, most of the transfigurations I've defined as useful in battle are not ones that target the soldiers.

[The_Snark]

Hmmm, true. You've convinced me that transfiguration could be used in combat. Although I'm not sure you can extrapolate that he can make several swords at once spin like buzzsaws... and it still doesn't solve the problem of Sauron having armor woven with warding-spells similar to Grond's. What did they animate in book 6, then? I've forgotten a lot of that one...

The Ring was cut from Sauron's finger by a last desperate critical, by a master swordsman, with an artifact. And that broke the artifact. The movie wasn't particularly accurate, but I'm not sure there was a specific description of that stroke.

We also haven't explained how Voldemort is managing to directly confront Sauron without having his will crushed. It's what Sauron does; hte desire to control others was why he became evil. At the Black Gate, his willpower was an almost palpable thing, spurring his minions on, impeding his foes, and keeping Gandalf from doing anything aside from try to keep the men heartened. (That was Gandalf's preferred tactic anyway, but he couldn't have, say, driven off the Nazgul again.) And Sauron wasn't even present. He was, in fact, around a hundred miles away at the time.

[SmartAlec]

Wasn't the attack that poofed Sauron a desperate last-resort slash with a broken magical sword? That's different from a master swordsman hitting a critical.

Uh. In the movies, sure.

In the books, the actual details of the duel between Sauron, Gil-Galad the Elven-King and Elendil, King of Arnor and Gondor, are never really made clear. All that is known is that at the end of the fight, Gil-galad had been burned to death, Elendil had fallen, Elendil's sword had broken beneath him as he fell, and Sauron was down. It's possible that Elendil had defeated Sauron by the traditional method of defeating evil creatures in Lord of the Rings - he forced Sauron off a high rocky drop, but fell himself also. Rather than striking the final blow, Isildur came up to the unconscious/expiring Sauron, and cut the Ring from Sauron's finger with the broken remains of his father's sword.

This fight is very much considered an epic clash of titans. Gil-galad was the greatest warrior of the age, and was considered absolutely unstoppable in battle, and Elendil was reportedly eight feet tall.

It might be worth pointing out that in the books, destroying the Ring does not destroy Sauron. Indeed, when Sauron reformed after his defeat at the hands of the Last Alliance, the reason he didn't look for the Ring is because he thought it had already been destroyed. It's only after the capture and torture of Gollum that he learns otherwise.

Flitwick's armor trick

I've re-read that passage, and I got the impression that the animation of the suits of armour was part of Hogwarts' ancient defences, and Flitwick merely knew how to activate it. I'm not sure if it's an actual spell a single wizard can cast. If it was, it begs the question of why Voldemort's team doesn't use it.

[The_Snark]

It might be worth pointing out that in the books, destroying the Ring does not destroy Sauron. Indeed, when Sauron reformed after his defeat at the hands of the Last Alliance, the reason he didn't look for the Ring is because he thought it had already been destroyed. It's only after the capture and torture of Gollum that he learns otherwise.

Good point... although just because he believed it had been destroyed doesn't mean that actually destroying it doesn't rob him of all power. It had never been destroyed, after all; he didn't know what would happen.

Looking up a few things, though, it didn't take Sauron thousands of years to reform. After the destruction of Numenor—in which Sauron was annihilated via divine continent-sinking tidal wave—he was able to reform his body in about a year. It took longer after the Last Alliance, but certainly not more than a few decades, unaided. Voldemort could have floated about as a bodyless wraith more or less forever if he hadn't gotten lucky and had a minion to find him and revive him.

[warty goblin]

Items can be sundered by a gaze sure- or by countering the spell that moves them, see the door to the Chamber of Marzurbal. Given that LOTR counterspelling is based on willpower, I'm going to go way out a limb here and say that Sauron is pretty good at that sort of thing...

Wizards can't dodge arrows- they move to fast, particularly at the range where wizard spells stand the faintest chance of hitting. Let's see, HP dodges spells from pretty short range- let's say fifty feet fairly often, as do many wizards. Humans have ~1/2 second reaction time, but let's assume that the wizards can anticipate the spell's direction by watching their opponent, and say that it takes them 1/4 of a second after the spell is fired before they can really start their dodge. Further, let's assume that it takes 1/4 of a second to get out of the way. This results in the spell traveling the distance in ~1/2 a second, for a final flight speed of 100ft/second, and being fairly easy to dodge, since they make lots of light and often loud bangs as well.

An arrow is going to be going three times this fast, is quiet and very very hard to see. Spells also are not instantly cast- even the non-verbal ones require saying the words mentally, gaining suprise but not actually casting the spell faster. Protego and such defenses are visible, so an orc will know when they are down, meaning either the wizard is trying to escape or attack, and either way should attack. If the orc has an arrow nocked, I bet they can fire it off in the time it takes a wizard to target, cast a spell, and then throw the shield back up- if not reliably, then fairly frequently. If the wizard apperates, they risk getting hit, and what does apperating gaing them? As I've demonstrated, the slower speed of curses essentially means that a wizard's effective combat range is less than those of orc archers, so teleporting farther away does little to no good visa ve actually winning the war. When using magic, a wizard has to engage well within the effective range of archers and risk getting killed. I'm not saying its going to happen every time, or even most of the time, but with some degree of frequency, wizards are going to die. Sauron pretty much always has more orcs, Voldermort really doesn't have more wizards.

[Tyrant]

What great knowledge do you need about armor? I'm not talking about key stress points, I mean that "Look! There are no plates in the armpits and between the fingers and at the base of the neck!" Those sorts of things. Voldemort knows what armor is, it's not like he's so unfamliar with the *concept* that he won't realize a solid metal outfit is going to interfere with slashing attempts. (Likewise, they have arrows in HP...) As for the sword thing, I'll restate it outright: Buzzsaws. Buzzsaws do not require skill to wield, since they cause hurt no matter which way they impact. I'm suggesting he spin swords rapidly so as to effectively display as buzzsaws, but heck let's just use buzzsaws. Being surrounded with buzzsaws is bad news. I understand animated weapons are not magical weapons, and I've never indicated otherwise. S'cool, guys.

The question is though, does Mr I Hate Muggles and anything and everything they create have any knowledge of buzzsaws or their mechanics? I am guessing no. Knowing basically nothing of physics or engineering he probably has no grasp of the concept of rotational force and how to use it. More importantly, even if he did, a spinning sword doesn't equal a buzzsaw blade. In all probability, if he sent them spinning at Sauron, he would simply throw them at him. While it may look cool, the swords will simply break on impact. He won't have them make contact and slowly cut into Sauron's armor (the way a buzzsaw would need to do it to actually work), and I doubt Sauron will simply stand there and let it happen. Of course, all of this assumes normal weapons will even do anything other than shatter on his armor.

It has been shown that someone can sunder one item (of unremarkable size) with concentration and a gaze. How's that work with scads of swords and giant rocks? He most definitely has to get a bead on the thing to break it, and that trick Vader did on Luke in TESB worked well enough when he was using one hunk of metal at a time. Voldemort can multiple that by an order of magnitude... you can't concentrate your attention on all of those things long enough to cause sunderage.

What I am more interested in is how Voldy intends on doing all of this. If he is standing there focusing his powers on Sauron, then he isn't stopping the thousnads of arrows flying his way, or the Orcs right around Sauron just waiting to shank him, or the Nazgul waiting to do nasty things to him, or Sauron melting his brain. Vader only had a snot nosed punk to deal with, not the whole Rebellion.

[SmartAlec]

Good point... although just because he believed it had been destroyed doesn't mean that actually destroying it doesn't rob him of all power. It had never been destroyed, after all; he didn't know what would happen.

I'm firmly of the belief that Sauron dies at the end of Lord of the Rings because his Tower - the foundations of which were made with the Ring's power - collapses on him.

[The_Snark]

I'm firmly of the belief that Sauron dies at the end of Lord of the Rings because his Tower - the foundations of which were made with the Ring's power - collapses on him.

"And allegations are flying today, as Sauron, ruler of the Dark Land and self-proclaimed Lord of Middle-Earth has reportedly perished! Undercover reporter Meneldor the Swift reports to us that two hobbits found at Mount Doom, over thirty miles away, not only admit to being responsible, but claim to have destroyed Sauron by throwing a magic ring into the volcano!"

"The ringleader, a Mr. Baggins, them seemed to back down on his claims, demurring that 'it was really an accident' and that in fact, a third person, referred to as Gollum or Smeagol, was cavorting on the edge of the volcano with said magic Ring and accidentally fell in. Examinations of the birth records, however, indicate that Smeagol was born well over five hundred years ago, and Mr. Baggins' tale remains dubious."

"The reason for this sudden turnabout may lie in the recent destabilization of the All-Middle-Earth War of the Ring. Apparently, on hearing the news of their dark employer's demise, the Nine Captains rushed to the scene and were tragically killed in a freak volcanic eruption, and the rest of Sauron's players were so demoralized that they threw the game. Should Mr. Baggins indeed prove responsible for Sauron's demise, serious charges could be brought to bear."

"Perhaps fortunately for the Shire aristocrat, a study of the ruins of Barad-Dur has so far indicated that they collapsed due to unknown structural flaws, and that Sauron's death was, in all likelihood, a tragic side effect of the collapse of his dread residence."

"Mr. Baggins has further undermined his credibility by protesting numerous renovations in his home county, organizing several violent protests to that effect, and claiming that he must now leave the world forever. Elven shipbuilders are so far unwilling to make a statement as to how they will view the hobbit's request."



More seriously, I'm pretty sure Tolkien stated somewhere that destroying the Ring would reduce Sauron to an insubstantial, powerless shadow. Interesting to note that he didn't actually die, though.

[Ossian]

Sauron knew better than that. It took him 1000 years to awaken from his slumber after he was beaten on the slopes of Mt. Doom, but when he did, around 1000 Third Age, up there in the ruins of Utumno, he must habe though something like

"Hey...I am...shapeless but...I'm here!!! OH THIS IS SOOOO SWEET! UHUHU! who would have thought that...that means only one thing. The Ring! MY Ring! Is still whole! Oh my, they didn't destroy it...oh, this must have been Isildur, he was already such a loser with a complex of inferiority towards his taller and nobler daddy, meh, I killed him good that day. And Spear man too, for that matter, that was sweet too. Wait, now, what AGE is this one? Judging from how my incorporeal knees crack I must have been KO for, a thousand year. Ha, Tough luck on you, mortals and, oh, wait...the Nazgs! I'm here, so those fellas must be around. Uh, this is just awesome, let me dial the Witch King's number now. So, hello Morgul, what's the craig? Yeah, I'm alive. Yeah, I knew you knew it, dumbass. Since you didn't vanish, the ring must be whole, and you could well expect me to pay visit at some stage. Nah, still incorporeal, but my spirit "has lost none of its former potency" as they say. What you've been up to? A realm of sorceres in the North? Angmar you say? cool, hey, I'm out for a sec and you get delusions of grandur. Anyway, stick to the plan, kick the dwarves of of Carn Dum, fill it with orcs, get some spotlight while Iget redressed, and keep in touch. All right, cool, bye! Yeah..yeah, I love you too..."

[Hawriel]

Sauron wins its not even a contest. Souron is Tolkens Satan, this is like asking if Voldemort could beat Satan. No he cannot, Voldemort is a pound puppy of delinquency compared to Souron.

[EvilElitest]

What great knowledge do you need about armor? I'm not talking about key stress points, I mean that "Look! There are no plates in the armpits and between the fingers and at the base of the neck!" Those sorts of things. Voldemort knows what armor is, it's not like he's so unfamliar with the *concept* that he won't realize a solid metal outfit is going to interfere with slashing attempts. (Likewise, they have arrows in HP...) As for the sword thing, I'll restate it outright: Buzzsaws. Buzzsaws do not require skill to wield, since they cause hurt no matter which way they impact. I'm suggesting he spin swords rapidly so as to effectively display as buzzsaws, but heck let's just use buzzsaws. Being surrounded with buzzsaws is bad news. I understand animated weapons are not magical weapons, and I've never indicated otherwise. S'cool, guys.

1. I looked at the picture of Sauron, his neck and the rest of the body only have a tiny difference if any
2. Chain mail under the armpit
3. Does voldemort know where the kinks in hte armor are though? That could take a little while to find out, and he has to avoid arrows the whole time
4. Can non magical weapons piece his armor, because Grond was immune to normal weapons, i can imagine Sauron's armor being so
5. One hit from his happy mace things seems to destroy whole legions, so "Buss saws" should be a problem
6. Does Mr. v know who Buss saws work?
7.Even if they did effect armor, buzz saws take a long time to work on a non moving target, so Mr. V would have to stand around their a lot (risking a shank) simple to pervent Sauron from destroying the lot of them.

Controlling the attack is not a problem. There's even a specific spell for it - Oppugno. That's Latin for "I attack". It instructs the conjured creatures or items to swarm the target creature. (HP6, Ch14.)

Thus taken even more time.

Wasn't the attack that poofed Sauron a desperate last-resort slash with a broken magical sword? That's different from a master swordsman hitting a critical.

No, after the kings of men and elves were both killed, Isiduel took up the sword and stabed him, thus breaking the sword. I think, it is very hazy on what happened

It has been shown that someone can sunder one item (of unremarkable size) with concentration and a gaze. How's that work with scads of swords and giant rocks?

Well Sauron's mace can break legion, giant rock should't be a problem,

He most definitely has to get a bead on the thing to break it, and that trick Vader did on Luke in TESB worked well enough when he was using one hunk of metal at a time. Voldemort can multiple that by an order of magnitude... you can't concentrate your attention on all of those things long enough to cause sunderage.

And voldemort can't aim these things long enough wile avoding a shanking
from,
EE
Edit- I went up a rank, sweet

[Rutee]

Seriously, Ditto.
Drop the swords. It has been demonstrated that they're pointless, for a wide variety of reasons, not the least of which being Voldemort has no concept of how to use them, doesn't care about armor and assuming that Sauron's armor IS vulnerable to anything, wouldn't be able to Shoot the Core.

They have been demonstrated beyond any rational doubt to be useless against Sauron. Why do you INSIST on continuing with them? I have no problem admitting they're a valid tactic in general, especially within the HP-verse (Excepting the animation time, but what you lose in time you seem to make up for in an omnidirectional attack) but it /would not work against Sauron/. And even as a valid tactic in the HP-Verse, it's better using something that's actually meant to be used as a projectile (Say, an arrow). I dunno if you know this, but swords aren't good projectiles, and wizards don't know swordplay, as a rule.

It has been shown that someone can sunder one item (of unremarkable size) with concentration and a gaze. How's that work with scads of swords and giant rocks?

*Facepalms* The door of Moria is enormous.

As for the sword thing, I'll restate it outright: Buzzsaws. Buzzsaws do not require skill to wield, since they cause hurt no matter which way they impact

....You recognize that a sword also hurts when it hits, and the reason Swordplay is brought up is because you have to get it past the guard of a legendary fighter, right? Notwithstanding that
A: Voldemort doesn't understand centrifugal force, or a Buzzsaw, so he can neither make swords imitate them or make the buzzsaw itself.
B: WINDMILLS DO NOT WORK THAT WAY. A Sword's weighting doesn't lend itself to that kind of action, because it's not uniformly even. You could /make/ it whirl, but that doesn't mean it'd do a very good job of it. I know DnD has a Whirling Blades something or other but that doesn't really qualify it as something useful in a legitimate sense.

In any sense, Voldemort is basically screwed. He's got nothing that can damage Sauron.

HP magic is certainly not known from birth; you do learn the motions and incantations. The reason I say that you do not need to learn the magic is because nothing about the magic in you changes due to learning that spell. HP magic is much like D&D in that Magic is a force out there that, if you ask nicely and correctly, can do whatever you ask it to. In LOTR, you have to channel your essence into whatever feat you attempt to effect. That's a far cry from having to look something up in a book. All the inherent-magic work is instilled at birth insofar as 'You're a wizard. You can use a wand for much fun now', but beyond that it's elementary.

Then you were being deliberately obtuse. It has been very clear that people mean that the HP-types do not necessarily know particular spells just because they exist, followed by you rebutting saying "Yeah-huh, they do, they know all magic!" No, they do not know every single spell.As an aside, magic in both DnD and HP seems to be significantly closer to Vaarsuvius' version of it. "I'm rewriting the laws of physics to suit my needs." It's not an impersonal force but one generated by the caster, with spells as tried-and-true channeling of that power.

Controlling the attack is not a problem. There's even a specific spell for it - Oppugno. That's Latin for "I attack". It instructs the conjured creatures or items to swarm the target creature. (HP6, Ch14.)

Yes, if you use the specific animation charm, which it's not guaranteed Voldemort knows. I was going off of an advanced application of the levitation Charm.

What great knowledge do you need about armor? I'm not talking about key stress points, I mean that "Look! There are no plates in the armpits and between the fingers and at the base of the neck!"

That's quite a detail to pick up at such a distance, from someone who, and I *repeat*, has nfc what he's looking for. Notwithstanding that Sauron being who he is, he probably made seamless armor.

I've re-read that passage, and I got the impression that the animation of the suits of armour was part of Hogwarts' ancient defences, and Flitwick merely knew how to activate it. I'm not sure if it's an actual spell a single wizard can cast. If it was, it begs the question of why Voldemort's team doesn't use it.

Rowling's plot-induced stupidity.
Don't get me wrong, you might be right, but sadly, absence of evidence is not proof of absence. Of course, absence of evidence may show that Team Evil in the HP-verse doesn't /know/ the spell in question, so same net effect.

[Ditto]

If Sauron is Satan, then what is Morgoth?

That’s what I get for citing the movie, of course. Striking with an already-broken sword over the crushed body is more fun to watch. If the stroke shattered the sword, then that’s different.

As far as confronting Sauron directly, this is where the difference between magic systems is hugely important. We definitely do *not* see him outright mindcrush anyone at the Black Gate. HP has a branch of magic dedicated to reinforcing mental defenses, which is a buffer even on top of ‘willpower’. You can’t keep wizards from casting with your force of will. It’s sort of like LOTRers are Cha-based casters, and HPers are Int-based. LOTRers depend on their force of personality; HP wizards don’t in almost every case. (This is especially true with Charms.) Even if you’re making a Death Eater despair, when he points his wand and says “Lumos”, his wand lights up. When he says “Expelliarmus”, you drop your weapon. (Which is actually really handy against a guy with a mace or a man with a staff… and the books show that absolutely no one is immune to it.) When he says “Wingardium Leviosa”, stuff floats. That’s all there is to it.

Destroying the Ring does not destroy Sauron? Buh? This is another one of those points that I don’t understand how it could not have been raised before now. Is there some indication that he was not destroyed when the Ring was?

If a couple of orcs are standing ready, they most definitely could get a shot in while a wizard drops, shoots, and raises the shield. Archers have an advantage in attacking time. But if he got some orcs standing ready, then he leaves! A wizard will never have to be caught with his pants/shield down, because he’ll apparate away. To use an area of effect spell (including but not limited to Fiendfyre), which doesn’t require the precision hitting an individual target does.

Why wouldn’t wizards have a working knowledge of physics? A lot of it is common sense and observation, and wizards *do* look at the world other than in terms of charms and potions, AND the very-finer points are boring and mathy. So fine, he’ll have a bunch of swords surround him in a repeatedly-stabbing cloud. Is that better? You can’t swat all of them away in a blow. By the time he gets to Sauron, I’m assuming his army is kaput. If not, he can put up one of those spiffy energy shields that atomizes incoming projectiles – it doesn’t require concentration to keep animated objects running around, doing their thing.

The Snark, that was wonderful. You should look up ‘The secret lost e-mails between the Ringwraiths and Sauron”

EDIT: By ‘item of unremarkable size’, I meant swords and staffs, not the door. That’s not the sunder attack, that’s an entirely different ball game.

Not using buzzsaws is fine. Stabstabstabstab is an easy movement to understand. I’m not saying they know every spell, but they do not have to learn it in anything resembling the same way LOTRers need to craft magic. It’s (simplistically) point and shoot. Magic is explicitly part of the natural world, and NOT generated by the caster. It’s far more like the Force than V’s version of defining D&D magic. HP wizards just have (groan) midichlorians. And unlike Jedi, they don’t have to wiggle their minds into the right state of consciousness to use it, they just let it launch through them. Please stop implying that Voldemort knows basically nothing besides AK, that’s a fallacy. Defining the specific spells a given wizard knows is just getting pedantic. Knowing the name of a different sword isn’t the same as granting an entirely new ability, like a new weapon proficiency or the ability to cast lightning bolts. Likewise, knowing the names of spells isn’t granting wizards a heretofore unverified power.

[Ossian]

Sorry I cannot quote the words in English, but it goes on something like "he was permanently crippled". So, it is a bit like saying that he was not destroyed. It's when Gandalf says that other Evils yet may come after Sauron, for he is just an emissary (of Evil per se) but it is not upon them (i.e. the fellowship) to stop them, just like they don't have to "master all the tides of the world".

O.

[SmartAlec]

If Sauron is Satan, then what is Morgoth?

They're two very distinct villains. Morgoth is very much a Destroyer - he seeks to unmake creation, and return it to formless chaos. A nihilistic bad guy. One could say he's more analogous to H.P. Lovecraft's Elder Gods, than Satan.

Sauron, on the other hand, is a Dominator. He wants to control, not destroy. Having said that, he'll happily destroy some bits if that means he can control the rest...

Destroying the Ring does not destroy Sauron? Buh? This is another one of those points that I don’t understand how it could not have been raised before now. Is there some indication that he was not destroyed when the Ring was?

Ossian's got it right; he was reduced to a mostly-powerless shadow of himself. The Wise were as clueless as Sauron as to what would happen when the Ring was destroyed; they sought to destroy it so that he couldn't get his hands on it again, pure and simple. Finding the Ring would have moved Sauron's odds of total and complete victory up from Very Very Likely to Totally Certain, and the Wise didn't want that. In fact, the odds were pretty grim either way; but the Wise felt destroying the Ring now would make it easier for future generations to hopefully overthrow Sauron one day, even if the Free Peoples failed.

There's a very Norse-myth, Ragnarok, fighting-even-though-we-know-we're-doomed tone to Lord of the Rings. Unsurprising, given that it was written by a man who loved those myths.

Having said that, we already know he has a body in the books; the only character to have seen him face to face, Gollum, says as much. Also, we could have deduced that from Sauron's possession of the Nine and three of the seven Dwarf-rings. He would have had to have something to wear them on.

Having said all this, we only know:

1) The Ring is destroyed
2) Sauron is destroyed soon after

If Sauron was already corporeal, it seems odd for the destruction of the Ring to have finished him, any more than it would for Voldemort to keel over and die once you destroy all his Horcruxes. Hence my tower-fell-on-him interpretation.

[WalkingTarget]

If Sauron is Satan, then what is Morgoth?

From an antagonistic standpoint for the purpose of the narratives that they are involved in? Also Satan. If one wants to try to equate characters from Tolkien to real world religious concepts, Morgoth would be Satan and Sauron would be some lesser (but still dangerous) evil thingy (I dunno, Beelzebub or something), but attempting to make direct comparisons/analogies like Hawriel did is difficult at best (like comparing Satan to Loki or Hades).

That’s what I get for citing the movie, of course. Striking with an already-broken sword over the crushed body is more fun to watch. If the stroke shattered the sword, then that’s different.

What we know about the fight: Gil-galad was burned from the heat of Sauron's body (assumed to be before Sauron was brought down). Elendil fell and his sword broke beneath him (i.e. the sword was not broken before that). Isildur used part of the broken sword to cut the ring from Sauron. Given that it's unlikely that Isildur was able to win a sword fight with a broken weapon, here's my interpretation.

Elendil wins, Sauron is defeated. Elendil then dies from the exhaustion/wounds he sustained during this fight and breaks his sword when he falls on it wrong, Isildur uses what's left of the sword to claim his weregild (the payment for his father's, and possibly brother's, life). Movies to the contrary, Narsil was described as only being broken into two pieces which hardly qualifies as "shattered".

Destroying the Ring does not destroy Sauron? Buh? This is another one of those points that I don’t understand how it could not have been raised before now. Is there some indication that he was not destroyed when the Ring was?

Possible interpretation and is not definitive. The thought is that Sauron's "new" body doesn't just *poof* when the ring is destroyed, but since he's at the top of a very tall tower that does crumble when the ring goes, the body "dies" in the resulting collapse. Either way, Sauron is reduced to a much weaker spirit and can't incarnate anymore.

The Snark, that was wonderful.

Agreed.

Not using buzzsaws is fine. Stabstabstabstab is an easy movement to understand. I’m not saying they know every spell, but they do not have to learn it in anything resembling the same way LOTRers need to craft magic. It’s (simplistically) point and shoot. Magic is explicitly part of the natural world, and NOT generated by the caster. It’s far more like the Force than V’s version of defining D&D magic. HP wizards just have (groan) midichlorians. And unlike Jedi, they don’t have to wiggle their minds into the right state of consciousness to use it, they just let it launch through them.

Well, the outright "magic" in Tolkien (and lets just stick to prompt effects, not magic qualities of items) seems to be just exerting one's will upon the universe until it pays attention. While this isn't as easy as picking up a wand and saying the right Latin-ish phrase (after being taught the appropriate phrase for each individual spell) if you have the magic in your soul switched to "on", Tolkien's magic is just a matter of getting the hang of it in the first place then you can make it do whatever (within genre conventions) you need it to. Once you get to the "state of mind" in Tolkien, you pretty much operate that way all the time (it's not like it requires a trance to do stuff, Gandalf faces the Balrog in real time while shouting taunts and rebukes).

Gandalf wants the door to stay shut, so it does, until the Balrog wants it to open. Gandalf wants light, and there is light. Gandalf wants wet wood to burn, and it does. Finrod wants people to think he's an orc, Sauron wants to see through the illusion. Elrond wants a river to flood, and it does. Saruman talks to people and they heed his words (unless they're onto him and are willfully opposing him). I'd imagine Sauron would look at magically animated swords, think "Stop it!" at them, and they fall to the ground.

[WalkingTarget]

They're two very distinct villains. Morgoth is very much a Destroyer - he seeks to unmake creation, and return it to formless chaos. A nihilistic bad guy. One could say he's more analogous to H.P. Lovecraft's Elder Gods, than Satan.

Sauron, on the other hand, is a Dominator. He wants to control, not destroy. Having said that, he'll happily destroy some bits if that means he can control the rest...

Hmm, my interpretation of Morgoth's motivations has been that he's out to rule Arda (i.e. the world). He wants to be in charge of the whole shebang, the very matter of creation. Sauron's more interested in just dominating the people that live there.

[Greebo]

Hmm, my interpretation of Morgoth's motivations has been that he's out to rule Arda (i.e. the world). He wants to be in charge of the whole shebang, the very matter of creation. Sauron's more interested in just dominating the people that live there.

I agree with this interpretation as well. It goes back all the way to the music of Creation. Morgoth did not try to stop the song, he tried to change it to his own tune.

[Ditto]

I don't have a problem with Sauron getting stabded with half of a sword. Still a pretty epic scene.

Satan is a fine analogue for Sauron as far as MO and goals; I read the first reference to mean "Ultimate Evil" rather than "He is the evil one who dominates for pleasure", and this I was curious as to why Hurwiel felt Sauron was ultimater than Morgoth. With the second interpretation, s'no big.

By 'state of mind', I was refering to the Jedi sort of thing, where you have to be in tune with the Force to use it. I guess that would be Wis-based, for the trifecta of casting stats. Not the case with either LOTR or HP, obviously.

[SmartAlec]

I admit, I tend to draw a line between Melkor, the Valar who tried to change the music of Creation to suit himself, and Morgoth, the apparently mad version of Melkor who tries to destroy things because they don't fit his vision of Creation.

If you look at Morgoth's attitude towards Men - he was almost terrified of Men, and what Men represented. Men go 'elsewhere' when they die, and when they dream; there was a part of Men that Morgoth could never remake, or destroy. That was a very serious psychological blow to the Big Bad.

Of course, this is why one of Sauron's first moves in becoming a Dark Lord in his own right is - to get some Men on his side. Hence, the Easterlings and Southrons.

[Rowanomicon]

If Sauron is Satan, then what is Morgoth?

Well Judeo-Christian mythology and Middle Earth mythology don't line up perfectly in terms of plots and characters. I believe the 'Sauron is Satan' thing is more just to give you an idea of the character of Sauron by equating him to other BBEGs. While Voldy is a BBEG for non-epic people Sauron in a BBEG for extremely epic people.

That’s what I get for citing the movie

Yes, read the books.

As far as confronting Sauron directly... That’s all there is to it.

It's been clearly shown that if you get the words or movements slightly wrong the spell wont work. One is very likely to get precise words and movements wrong in the presence of Sauron (or even the Nazgul for that matter).
WalkingTarget does a good job of explaining Middle earth magic I think. So: Sauron wants Voldemort paralyzed (and kept form apparating); Sauron wants Voldemort's wand shattered; Sauron wants Voldemort to serve him unendingly and unquestioningly. Done. Why? sauron is more powerful than Voldemort in ever way.

Destroying the Ring does not destroy Sauron? Buh? This is another one of those points that I don’t understand how it could not have been raised before now. Is there some indication that he was not destroyed when the Ring was?

this actually has been brought up in this thread before. I don't blame you for not remembering though; it was several layers of sanity ago.
Being as incredibly ultimate as he is he wasn't totally destroyed at the end of the books; he ended up an insubstantial and powerless wisp, literally a shadow of his former self.

Why wouldn’t wizards have a working knowledge of physics? A lot of it is common sense and observation, and wizards *do* look at the world other than in terms of charms and potions, AND the very-finer points are boring and mathy. So fine, he’ll have a bunch of swords surround him in a repeatedly-stabbing cloud. Is that better? You can’t swat all of them away in a blow. By the time he gets to Sauron, I’m assuming his army is kaput. If not, he can put up one of those spiffy energy shields that atomizes incoming projectiles – it doesn’t require concentration to keep animated objects running around, doing their thing.

Sauron want Voldemort's magic to cease working at all. Sauron gets what he want, even from the universe. This is a...thing...who can literally intimidate the universe through force of thought to change it's rules to his liking.

EDIT: By ‘item of unremarkable size’, I meant swords and staffs, not the door. That’s not the sunder attack, that’s an entirely different ball game.

I'm quite sure that it's been clearly shown to be very possibly for Sauron, Saruman, the Witch King, and maybe the other Nazgul to shatter both wizards' wands and animated fighters at a distance.

[Rutee]

[quote]

As far as confronting Sauron directly, this is where the difference between magic systems is hugely important. We definitely do *not* see him outright mindcrush anyone at the Black Gate. HP has a branch of magic dedicated to reinforcing mental defenses, which is a buffer even on top of ‘willpower’. You can’t keep wizards from casting with your force of will. It’s sort of like LOTRers are Cha-based casters, and HPers are Int-based. LOTRers depend on their force of personality; HP wizards don’t in almost every case. (This is especially true with Charms.) Even if you’re making a Death Eater despair, when he points his wand and says “Lumos”, his wand lights up. When he says “Expelliarmus”, you drop your weapon. (Which is actually really handy against a guy with a mace or a man with a staff… and the books show that absolutely no one is immune to it.) When he says “Wingardium Leviosa”, stuff floats. That’s all there is to it.[/quote\
You know, I could dispute morale having no effect on Harry Potter-verse magic, but I don't need to.

You do recognize that if their spirit were broken, the Death Eater /isn't/ going to cast, right? Whether they can or can't is irrelevant; I will not, for purposes of this debate, question whether their magical ability remains. They will not exercise it (Nor would anyone else who truly hits a pit of despair. The best they could manage would be half hearted actions at pathetic levels of effectiveness). Morale matters because it affects what you will let yourself do, not what your technical capabilities are. It doesn't matter what you do, from piloting giant robots to commanding ships to shooting guns to casting spells. Morale matters.

Also, FYI: LotR magic sounds closer to Wis-based then anything. Crikes.

If a couple of orcs are standing ready, they most definitely could get a shot in while a wizard drops, shoots, and raises the shield. Archers have an advantage in attacking time. But if he got some orcs standing ready, then he leaves! A wizard will never have to be caught with his pants/shield down, because he’ll apparate away. To use an area of effect spell (including but not limited to Fiendfyre), which doesn’t require the precision hitting an individual target does.

Apparation means he drops the shield and can be pepperred by arrows.

Notwithstanding that if Orcs can in fact stealth, they can, get this, just sneak up on and shiv/shoot a Wizard. That does in fact mean they can be caught with their pants down.

Why wouldn’t wizards have a working knowledge of physics? A lot of it is common sense and observation, and wizards *do* look at the world other than in terms of charms and potions, AND the very-finer points are boring and mathy. So fine, he’ll have a bunch of swords surround him in a repeatedly-stabbing cloud. Is that better? You can’t swat all of them away in a blow. By the time he gets to Sauron, I’m assuming his army is kaput. If not, he can put up one of those spiffy energy shields that atomizes incoming projectiles – it doesn’t require concentration to keep animated objects running around, doing their thing.

If it's such common sense, why did it take so long to capitalize on it? We needed Newton to properly understand gravity. Gravity would seem like common sense, wouldn't it? These are people who have divorced themselves from nonmagical living for at least 5 to 6 hundred years, for the most part. They'll probably get a lot of things that are truly common sense, but things like the finer points of centrifugal force? Unlikely. Hell, *you* presumably have a better background in it then they do and you thought a sword spinning was properly equatable with a buzzsaw's force. Why should I believe they'll know more then schoolchildren on the matter?

[Rowanomicon]

LOTR magic doesn't really fit into D&D stats, but if it had to it would be based of Wis, Cha, or a combination of the two. Harry Potter magic is decidedly Int based. [/irrelevance]

I totally agree with Rutee on the morale bit.
However, I think, in fact, that school children would have a better understanding of physics than Voldy and his crew.

Here's a thread I just started on HP wizards' lack of education that bears some relevance to this thread.

[WalkingTarget]

I admit, I tend to draw a line between Melkor, the Valar who tried to change the music of Creation to suit himself, and Morgoth, the apparently mad version of Melkor who tries to destroy things because they don't fit his vision of Creation.

If you look at Morgoth's attitude towards Men - he was almost terrified of Men, and what Men represented. Men go 'elsewhere' when they die, and when they dream; there was a part of Men that Morgoth could never remake, or destroy. That was a very serious psychological blow to the Big Bad.

Of course, this is why one of Sauron's first moves in becoming a Dark Lord in his own right is - to get some Men on his side. Hence, the Easterlings and Southrons.

Oh, yeah, I can see that distinction. It's how you can resolve the most powerful creation of Eru with the mace-wielding, scarred faced giant with burned hands and a limp that he was by the War of Wrath.

The idea of Man tended to be worrisome for any of the Big Bads, but there were plenty of them that worked for Morgoth as well. The 3 tribes of the Edain were just the ones who were friendly with the elves, all the others were either under his sway or, at best, unaffiliated. The Eldar were the only people to be united against him.

[dehro]

"And allegations are flying today, as Sauron, ruler of the Dark Land and self-proclaimed Lord of Middle-Earth has reportedly perished! Undercover reporter Meneldor the Swift reports to us that two hobbits found at Mount Doom, over thirty miles away, not only admit to being responsible, but claim to have destroyed Sauron by throwing a magic ring into the volcano!"
[...]
"Mr. Baggins has further undermined his credibility by protesting numerous renovations in his home county, organizing several violent protests to that effect, and claiming that he must now leave the world forever. Elven shipbuilders are so far unwilling to make a statement as to how they will view the hobbit's request."

marry me...

anyway, I was under the impression that his new body, a tall human, perished under the collapsed tower, while his soul took the form of a dark and smoky cloud, to be scattered all over the place by a sudden and strong wind from the West.
how "final" is this?... Since gandalf, in the end, states that his reason for being in middle-earth was to destroy Sauron, I guess it's pretty final...but it's only a guess.

and I can't help but notice, Ditto, that you continue your course of action, applying "test and trial" modern logic to a scenario where this can not be applied.
I'll explain:
what has happened in the last pages of this post is roughly this:

1) anyone on the LOTR WINS faction
2) you

2)well, then voldy could use this technique (where "this" is basically something that you would do if you where him but by no means is something that would occur to the character Voldemort... and this is, in my eyes the first huge error..I have already explained why in one of my past posts, you are not the character and vice versa, it is said nowhere that voldy would act in the fashion you would have him act..., and you tend to work mostly with instruments, magic and strategies that are never seen in the book, working on the omissions of the author and the loopholes you find in the "system")
1)no, he couldn't because on page x in book y a similar situation is shown or it is stated that Sauron is immune to an attack of that nature
2) well, then he could modify the previous technique a bit, in "this way" (And again, would he do so or is that you again?)
1)yeah, he could, but probably to no effect, because of page x2.. and because of....
2)well, then he could do something else, like "that"...

at this point, a pattern emerges, I think... what I read in this sequence is the following: (I might be biased by my convinction that Sauron pwns Voldy anytime)
2)to counter all of Sauron's uber advantages I could have Voldy use something he does in a book in a new way, since the simple traditional use doesn't work.., let's say swirling blades
(and here I start thinking... but isn't that the whole point of the confrontation? isn't the question "the character A as depicted in the book Versus character B as depicted in the book, and without alterations to their profile, nature, frame of mind, powers habits and tested techniques"????)

when this doesn't work you try a different approach, making what I feel is the same mistake...
and when even that doesn't work, you try yet something different.

but this could never happen!... the whole thing here is "voldy tries something, and Sauron tries something else"... last man standing wins.. it's not a videogame where voldy is alowed to try, reboot and try again...
what is far more likely to happen is
"swirling blades, I chose you"... oh, s**t... it's not working... oh...uh... heeeelp
Boom... end of voldy, or of Sauron (I think the former).

in other words, if Voldy were to act and think and attack/defend like he does in the books and with the techniques and magic he uses in the books, pitted against Sauron doing the same, Voldy doesn't stand a chance.

and may I remark that in the last 6-7 pages all Sauron has been doing is defending himself from utterly ineffective attacks?(while voldy is failing his attacks and running away, wizzy robe flapping round his ankles to avoid retaliation)...what will happen when he decides he's had enough and start to attack, I say?... voldy would be able to run, maybe...but that's about it... and in the end there would be no places left to run to anymore..