Sauron vs Voldemort

[turkishproverb]

what has happened in the last pages of this post is roughly this:

1) anyone on the LOTR WINS faction
2) you

love it. Perfect example of what this debate is.

[SmartAlec]

love it. Perfect example of what this debate is.

On the bright side, it IS an excuse to talk about Lord of the Rings.

[WalkingTarget]

On the bright side, it IS an excuse to talk about Lord of the Rings.

Yeah, I'm still in it for the impetus to look up the fine details and try to get my head into how Middle-earth works.

[Ditto]

Sauron wants Voldemort mindcrushed, so Voldemort is mindcrushed. You're right, that's exactly how magic works in LOTR. Please show me where Sauron looked at someone attacking the Black Gate, said "Mine now!", and scooped out his free will. The army didn't just stop fighting because Sauron asked it to all of a sudden. This is the same as saying 'The Eye will find them because it can see magic' - why didn't he use this ability on anyone, ever? Insidious whispers is one thing, but you're claiming force of will magic implies ThinkItIt'sDone. That's just false.

Wizards get the words and motions right all the time under extreme conditions. (Most spells don't require complex motions other than pointing the wand.) The example cited earlier was Ron Weasley attempting magic for the first time *ever* with a total bollocks spell. Sure, that's fair... cite an example where someone - even just an older student - had a critical failure because he didn't swish just-so.

Int-based means skill based, harnessing and crafting existing forces into niftiness - Harry Potter. Wis-based means it is drawn from the caster connection to the world and Life around him - Star Wars. Cha-based means the caster is using his force of personality and will to jam the rules of reality out of his way - LOTR. I think that's pretty clear-cut...

Apparition is instant. The shield disappears only because the caster is gone. You don't sneak up on wizards because 1) They're not standing around in open fields, 2) Caterwauling charm, 3) Repello Orcum, 4) Protego Totallum, 5) They're leagues upon leagues away when they want to nap, 6)...

Most of physics (at least as much as is needed for swordfighting) is common sense. Centrifugal force obviously is not, but I really wasn't pulling too hard on the physics of a sword dancing around of its own accord. I say "Spinning swords = Buzzsaws" in the loosest of terms and it's poo-poo'd, so we drop it and switch to proper buzzsaws, which is also poo-poo'd, so we switch to a cloud of stabbing swords, and now that's not going to work because when there's a method of attack you agree would work on piercing armor, it's suddenly decided "Well, Sauron can just think them out of existence." He could have done this to armies and heroes, folks, but he didn't. That either means he was feeling rusty and wanted to try out the ol' mace during the climactic battle of the Last War, or he couldn't do any such ridiculous feat.

Harry Potter wizards aren't getting much of a liberal arts education, I'll certainly grant that. But are advanced rhetoric and logic necessary to be labeled 'Not dumb'? That's university prejudice, right there. Many people today don't get through high school with a proper grasp on these things. Intelligent grown wizards have different, but not *lesser* pursuits of knowledge than students and adults in the real world. Holy observation, Batman! Also, whoever keeps suggesting that Muggle would roll over wizards with tanks and computers and ultralightairplane scouts: Magic futzes with technology. It's sort of like this 'No magic on Mount Doom', but for anywhere the wizarding population lives.

Voldemort's powerful abilities are dismissed out of hand as OACA. If Sauron is automatically immune to HP magic because he's a superbeing, then why can't Voldemort be immune to this alleged willy-nilly mindcrush ability because he's a wizard? There's no evidence that Maiar can affect non-mundane humans, so should we throw that power out? The solutions to problems suggested with Voldemort's various strategies are 'not what he would come up with'. Why not? These are all new situations for both sides. "Sauron hasn't faced an enemy who has had unlimited mobility before, so he wouldn't think of having his orc archers fire their (apparently unlimited) arrow stock off into the distance WITHOUT gaps in fire along a miles-wide battleline in hopes of hitting wizards who may or may not be there." Granted, that's still an absurd tactic, but it's just as novel as anything I've come up with for Voldemort's side.

As I've said before, people are saying "Sauron's a god, therefore his vaguely implied powers are obviously, in effect, the most potent and best applied use of a theoretical practical interpretation of this phrase." Admittedly, when I try to deconstruct non-points, we head down a line of argument that's entirely too specific to matter (such as whether Voldemort has a competent handle on physics of my figurative expression of spinning swords). It seems that if Sauron *wanted* swords to spin like buzzsaws, then they *would*. Because Sauron said so. Won't someone please decry this woeful lapse in logic, because Sauron doesn't have a solid grasp of modern higher physics?

...okay, my connection is dying, I'll have to continue later.

[The_Snark]

Sauron didn't mentally crush anyone at the Black Gate, no, but he wasn't actually at the Black Gate. If you look at the Last Alliance, where he did physically show himself (and the mace, by the way, is entirely a movie invention), we find that his willpower was such that nobody could even stand to attack him, with the exception of the intrepid heroes (Gil-galad, Elendil, Isildur, and possibly Elrond, Anarion, and Cirdan).

There's some truth to what you're saying, but on the other hand, Sauron's power is intentionally left vague. That works for Tolkien, because it was made clear that if they were actually standing before him, the heroes were doomed.

Voldemort, on the other hand, is confronted directly several times. In practically every book, actually. We get (or ought to get) a fairly good sense of what he could do.

And about the mind-crushing: It's not a literal, sudden "You are under my command" thing. It's a bit more subtle than that, as exemplified by Denethor, Saruman, and (as a combat example) the soldiers of the Last Alliance.

Denethor was strong-willed. He didn't have any magical talent, but he was firmly dedicated to opposing Sauron, and the fact that he had some legitimate right to be using the palantir helped shield him from Sauron's influence. He nevertheless grew embittered from long-distance struggles with Sauron, hindering his country's war effort and eventually killing himself.

Saruman was strong-willed, and a powerful Maiar to boot. Unfortunately, he had no real right to be using the Orthanc palantir, and he was perhaps too interested in ringlore and such knowledge. He was corrupted by Sauron, and while he tried to betray Sauron, he thought that the next best thing to his own rule would be becoming one of Sauron's lieutenants. He was being played for a fool, too. When Pippin comes into contact with Sauron's mind*, Sauron believed that Saruman had just come into possession of a hobbit, very likely the one bearing the Ring. His response? He laughs, and sends one of the Nazgul. (Saruman might have been a threat to Sauron if he'd had time to master the Ring, but evidently it would take longer than that.) He also knew perfectly well that Saruman wasn't trustworthy, and nevertheless manipulated him into doing exactly what he wanted.

*Incidentally, this brief mental contact left him weeping.

The armies at the Last Alliance were unable to stand up to Sauron or raise a hand against him, and they were Elves and Numenoreans, two fairly powerful and strong-willed races.

The essential difference in the effects, from what I can see, lies in whether or not the target of Sauron's will is evil. Evil people tend to serve him even if they think they're acting against him; those who manage to resist being corrupted are hindered in their actions.

This isn't an instant win for Sauron, but it means two things:

1. Most Death Eaters will be unable to help against Sauron.

2. Voldemort will not be at the top of his game. It's likely that he wouldn't be playing to his strengths; he would not, for example, be Apparating in and out and launching curses in the space of seconds. It's similar to what the Nazgul-fear does; even if it doesn't defeat you, it makes everything a lot harder.

[Rowanomicon]

Let me get this straight:

Sauron has no powers?

"Just because he's a god he doesn't automatically win!"
So he automatically loses?

No one's saying "ZOMG SAURON IZ TEH WIN GOD PWNZORZ ON VOLDY!!!!2!"
What we are saying is:
Sauron is vastly more powerful than Voldemort and would win this confrontation. *evidence*

Now, I'll grant that circumstances probably exist under which Voldemort would win, but if his chances are about the same as winning the lotto 649 then he has lost for the purposes of this thread (even if you figure out what such and uber-tactic/coincidence would be).

[dehro]

I can't help but notice that you tend to ignore my posts...is this because they're just plain silly? (If you think so I don't mind if you say, I won't take offence)...or is it because you don't know how to answer?

[The_Snark]

I can't help but notice that you tend to ignore my posts...is this because they're just plain silly? (If you think so I don't mind if you say, I won't take offence)...or is it because you don't know how to answer?

Could also be because there's a lot to answer. Ditto does seem to be the only one consistently defending Voldemort... which is probably a point in Sauron's favor, although popular opinion certainly doesn't decide an argument.

[dehro]

true...or maybe it's because it's easier to continue nitpicking on debatable details instead of facing someone who says that the entire approach to your defence is based upon the wrong perspective and method

[Tyrant]

Int-based means skill based, harnessing and crafting existing forces into niftiness - Harry Potter. Wis-based means it is drawn from the caster connection to the world and Life around him - Star Wars. Cha-based means the caster is using his force of personality and will to jam the rules of reality out of his way - LOTR. I think that's pretty clear-cut...

You're still trying to apply RPG stats to this. If you are going to continue to do that, then you have to aknowledge the earlier post which explained the LotR RPG doesn't stat Sauron. It says if you fight him one on one you are screwed with a capital S.

Most of physics (at least as much as is needed for swordfighting) is common sense.

If that were true, anyone could be a compotent swordfigher. I believe history shows this to not be the case. Again, gravity is as simple as it gets and has been observable since humans could attempt to reason. However, it took a long time to understand it and accept it. Swordfighting isn't easy. It isn't something you can do on instinct. It is not going to work if you have no clue how to do it, like Voldy.

Centrifugal force obviously is not, but I really wasn't pulling too hard on the physics of a sword dancing around of its own accord. I say "Spinning swords = Buzzsaws" in the loosest of terms and it's poo-poo'd, so we drop it and switch to proper buzzsaws,

You simply can't use a sword as a spinnig buzzsaw against an armored target. Againt a flesh and blood opponent with no protection, it will work most of the time though not in teh way you think it will. The only way it will work against armor is to keep it spinning so only the tip hits the armor and acts like the teeth on a buzzsaw. If the length of the blade makes contact, it will either dull the blade or shatter it. It won't penetrate the armor, and that's assuming it's ordinary plate armor. Voldy, who has no knowledge of buzzsaws, metalurgy, armor, bladed weapons in combat, etc will not know this and to believe he will become suddenly enlightened is absurd. He will send it spinning at Sauron and it will shatter on his armor, or he will dodge it or sunder it. He won't create buzzsaws because he has no clue they exist and doesn't have even the barest foundation of knowledge needed to "create" them. He doesn't know the advantage of a round bladed object with curved teeth about it's surface. He doesn't know the sword won't break the armor. He doesn't know a saw blade would stand a better chance (as in0.00000001 instead of 0 chance of scratching his armor). He would simply have no clue how to get around the armor using weapons. He could try, but then he would die. While he is busy getting pissed that a metal suit is outsmarting him some orc will ram a sword through his throat. Or, the guy in the metal suit could actually do something other than stand there which is apparently what he has to do for any of these Voldy plans to have any shot at working.

which is also poo-poo'd, so we switch to a cloud of stabbing swords, and now that's not going to work because when there's a method of attack you agree would work on piercing armor,

I don't agree that they would pierce his armor. They would likely be the orc swords laying on the battlefield. Orc swords aren't going to get through his armor. If it were just full plate, maybe. However, given who he his and what one of his main talents is, it is a pretty safe bet his armor is above and beyond typical full plate.

Intelligent grown wizards have different, but not *lesser* pursuits of knowledge than students and adults in the real world.

Different but not necessarily lesser is true. However, it still doesn't include physics, military strategy, or any of the other things Voldy is for some reason or another assumed to know when there is absolutely no reason to think he would know them. Physics, and military strategy, aren't things you just make up as you go. We have the benefit of thousands of years of trial and error, research, and innovation in these particular fields. Wizards don't. It seems common sense to us, because we are taught the basics of it very early on. Wizards aren't. Sauron knows military strategy because he is a warlord and has been using it for thousands of years. Voldy is a terrorist at best. Sauron, by virtue of being a warrior and creator of weapons, has mastered the basics of combat and the physics involved in it. I would imagine given the type of being he is, that he has greater knowledge of the way the universe functions (physics) than your average HP wizard.

Also, whoever keeps suggesting that Muggle would roll over wizards with tanks and computers and ultralightairplane scouts: Magic futzes with technology. It's sort of like this 'No magic on Mount Doom', but for anywhere the wizarding population lives.

First, you still have to deal massively overwhelming numerical superiority. Voldy is going to be hard pressed to deal with a half million Orcs. What's he going to against 6 billion people? Secondly, as I said before, unless that antimagic field extends far enough, they can still be nuked. Thermonuclear warheads only need to get so close.

Voldemort's powerful abilities are dismissed out of hand as OACA. If Sauron is automatically immune to HP magic because he's a superbeing, then why can't Voldemort be immune to this alleged willy-nilly mindcrush ability because he's a wizard?

Because, wizards aren't really the same as gods now are they? Voldy, for all his power, is still just a man. A man who is somewhat harder to kill for good, but still just a man. He has not become some kind of higher being. He was born a man and he will die a man. Sauron doesn't live, he exists. He will never know the bitter taste of mortality. There's a difference. A big difference.

The solutions to problems suggested with Voldemort's various strategies are 'not what he would come up with'. Why not? These are all new situations for both sides.

All new situations doesn't mean Voldy took high school physics and chemistry classes. All new situations do present opportunities for alternative combat methods, however, the characters don't suddenly gain knowledge of modern weaponry and tactics. Otherwise, I could argue that Sauron could surely devise gunpowder and firearms to outfit the orcs with machine guns. That kind of goes against the setting. Voldy having any clue what a buzzsaw or how to fight an actual war against an actual military is just as out of setting. As they are written, he will be lucky if half his death eaters don't pee their pants upon seeing Sauron's army or Sauron himself.

"Sauron hasn't faced an enemy who has had unlimited mobility before, so he wouldn't think of having his orc archers fire their (apparently unlimited) arrow stock off into the distance WITHOUT gaps in fire along a miles-wide battleline in hopes of hitting wizards who may or may not be there." Granted, that's still an absurd tactic, but it's just as novel as anything I've come up with for Voldemort's side.

It may be absurd, but it is a viable military tactic that someone with Sauron's experience could easily come up with upon witnessing his enemies abilities. You seem to assume all Sauron does is sit around waiting for things to happen. He will actively be trying to coutner the moves of the wizards. He will react far faster to the changing battlefield conditions. He has actual experience waging war. He has viable commanders for his army. The HP wizards won't know how to react or even that the enemy is reacting to their tactics. If you don't know how military tactics work (and they won't) then it is very easy to fall prey to them.

It seems that if Sauron *wanted* swords to spin like buzzsaws, then they *would*. Because Sauron said so. Won't someone please decry this woeful lapse in logic, because Sauron doesn't have a solid grasp of modern higher physics?

He wouldn't need a higher knowledge of physics (though I believe it is easy to accept that he has that, given the kind of being he is), he has actual field experience with bladed weapons and their effects on armor/bodies. He knows how these things work and he could envision ways to improve them. If he thought a round object with curved blades sent spinning towards the enemy was the most effective killing weapon he could devise, he would use it. He does make nifty things with relative frequency you know. He also seems to have a soft spot for round objects.

[Rutee]

(and the mace, by the way, is entirely a movie invention)

My bad. He's mentioning it because I did. Plus, there's not enough bludgeoning-age in media anything, so I liked it :P

[quote]Apparition is instant. The shield disappears only because the caster is gone. You don't sneak up on wizards because 1) They're not standing around in open fields, 2) Caterwauling charm, 3) Repello Orcum, 4) Protego Totallum, 5) They're leagues upon leagues away when they want to nap, 6)..[/quote[
All HP magic is described as Instant. It almost is. I believe Apparation + Instant refers to how fast one moves, not the casting delay (Which is likely as minimal as every other spell)

Apparition is instant. The shield disappears only because the caster is gone. You don't sneak up on wizards because 1) They're not standing around in open fields, 2) Caterwauling charm, 3) Repello Orcum, 4) Protego Totallum, 5) They're leagues upon leagues away when they want to nap, 6)...

1) They would be better off in open fields, actually. That means there's no cover to hide in...
2: Who to the what?
3: I beg your pardon?
4: I don't believe you can really sustain that bubble 24/7, or no one would die in HP.
5: That's true, certainly. They can rest or heal in near perfect safety. They will still have to wander out, or be useless.

"Well, Sauron can just think them out of existence." He could have done this to armies and heroes, folks, but he didn't. That either means he was feeling rusty and wanted to try out the ol' mace during the climactic battle of the Last War, or he couldn't do any such ridiculous feat.

Uh, pay attention, person. People said that about the magic that is being used to assault him (FYI: Nobody's agreed on an attack piercing Sauron's armor yet). Nobody has said that he can think PEOPLE out of existence. The fact that he doesn't would in fact indicate that this is something LotR Magic can't spontaneously do, wouldn't it? :P

2. Voldemort will not be at the top of his game. It's likely that he wouldn't be playing to his strengths; he would not, for example, be Apparating in and out and launching curses in the space of seconds. It's similar to what the Nazgul-fear does; even if it doesn't defeat you, it makes everything a lot harder.

I don't believe he could anyway, or he'd duel like it more often. All Wizards would.

...Hell that kind of tactical mobility should have been an enormous advantage the Death Eaters have over the children...

Int-based means skill based, harnessing and crafting existing forces into niftiness - Harry Potter. Wis-based means it is drawn from the caster connection to the world and Life around him - Star Wars. Cha-based means the caster is using his force of personality and will to jam the rules of reality out of his way - LOTR. I think that's pretty clear-cut...

I wasn't really applying that sort of thought to it. I was going with "Wisdom is the stat most closely tied to one's will in D20, therefore, it's Wisdom-based". Much easier to determine in, say, Exalted/WoD... Willpower + Occult..

Voldemort's powerful abilities are dismissed out of hand as OACA. If Sauron is automatically immune to HP magic because he's a superbeing, then why can't Voldemort be immune to this alleged willy-nilly mindcrush ability because he's a wizard? There's no evidence that Maiar can affect non-mundane humans, so should we throw that power out? The solutions to problems suggested with Voldemort's various strategies are 'not what he would come up with'. Why not? These are all new situations for both sides. "Sauron hasn't faced an enemy who has had unlimited mobility before, so he wouldn't think of having his orc archers fire their (apparently unlimited) arrow stock off into the distance WITHOUT gaps in fire along a miles-wide battleline in hopes of hitting wizards who may or may not be there." Granted, that's still an absurd tactic, but it's just as novel as anything I've come up with for Voldemort's side.

The thing is, most of what you've come up with out of hand for HP does not work. We have mentioned the counters. Lord and tailor, it's like you're willfully ignoring points..

Dehro: Frankly? I think it's fine to come up with new tactics, in and of itself. We're dealing with Evil Overlords (One just happens to be an order of magnitude more powerful). It can be assumed that they're smarter then us. Barring knowledge of the specifics of how the opponent's stuff works, it would seem that anything we can think of, they could. In general, anyway, that's the thinking. Obviously, Voldemort is crippled in some education respects because he's a wizard supremacist schmuck, but in terms of creativity, it's generally assumed that supposedly brilliant characters are smarter then us.

[warty goblin]

...and, somehow I am drawn inescapably back towards food denial. Here's a simple 5 step plan for how a Dark Lord can rid themselves of pesky Magical Terrorists while still conquring the world at the same time!
1) We know Sauron is capable of mass land destruction (see, plains of Gorgoroth), so start to expand the radius of unusable slagged land.

2) We know Sauron has minions who are fairly good at agriculture (everything by the sea of Rhun), save the most fertile areas for farming camps, slag everything else.

3) It has been admitted that three orcs will be able to defeat or force the retreat of a wizard, guard every farming camp with a hundred or so orcs, depending on its size.

4) This will force the wizards to strike at particular locations, thus overcoming much of their mobility advantage. Since we know that in a straight up fight, 3+ orcs > 1 wizard, any food retrival mission will have a very high risk factor. The wizards could live off of the land, but somehow they don't seem to be that sort to me...soon the aforementioned moral issues set in and the movement begins to collapse from internal pressures and poor diet. This has the added benifit of making Fiendfyre an unatractive option, since very few people like eating food that's been reduced to ash. The overall number of soldiers at any particular farming installation can be kept reasonably small, so even the complete destruction of any one farm is a pretty minor inconvenience, while still producing enough food to maintain the slagging and general extra orc population.

5) After several years of this strategy, plant the rumor that Sauron can only be destroyed by someone of vast power going to Mt. Doom and doing such and such a magic ritual. By this point, things should be looking pretty grim in Death Eater central, and Voldermort should sieze this chance to once and for all prove his superiority (he's pretty prone to that kind of stuff after all, and this is exactly the sort of thing that Sauron can think of as well). Let him infiltrate Mt. Doom, then dump a couple Nazgul on his magic-deprived snaky arse, then carry him away and queue the endless tormenting. Headless, the remaining Death Eaters will most likely collapse into disorganized bickering, and can be outwaited in any event due to their pesky mortality...

There, five easy steps for world domination! Remember, mortals need 12 step plans to overcome their problems, but Dark Lords can do it in five!

[EvilElitest]

Default Re: Sauron vs Voldemort
If Sauron is Satan, then what is Morgoth?

Melkar- The one who wished to bend the universe to his will, the first evil
Morgath- The destroyer of all life, the mad version of Melkar, the Void
Sauron- The corrupter, the deceiver, the liar, the traitor, the cunning, the sorcerer, Satan, dommanater of men
Gothmog- The hammer of evil, the crushing fist. Bezabub maybe
The WK- The second in command, the cunning assassin, the trickster, Bhaal
Gollum- The corrupted, the twisted, the forgotton, the savior, the trator.
Voldemort-A moderatly powerful wizard who has been beaten by a group of teens.

Destroying the Ring does not destroy Sauron? Buh? This is another one of those points that I don’t understand how it could not have been raised before now. Is there some indication that he was not destroyed when the Ring was?

Gandalf says before the March on the Black gate that sauron will be reduced to a simple spirt.

If a couple of orcs are standing ready, they most definitely could get a shot in while a wizard drops, shoots, and raises the shield. Archers have an advantage in attacking time. But if he got some orcs standing ready, then he leaves! A wizard will never have to be caught with his pants/shield down, because he’ll apparate away. To use an area of effect spell (including but not limited to Fiendfyre), which doesn’t require the precision hitting an individual target does.

This might work once or twice, but
1. The orcs will catch on
2. The wizards will make a mistake
from,
EE
Edit

Why wouldn’t wizards have a working knowledge of physics? A lot of it is common sense and observation, and wizards *do* look at the world other than in terms of charms and potions, AND the very-finer points are boring and mathy. So fine, he’ll have a bunch of swords surround him in a repeatedly-stabbing cloud. Is that better? You can’t swat all of them away in a blow. By the time he gets to Sauron, I’m assuming his army is kaput. If not, he can put up one of those spiffy energy shields that atomizes incoming projectiles – it doesn’t require concentration to keep animated objects running around, doing their thing

Dude, I am in a science school, and i need to take classes for Phyics. And i am a normal human. How would a muggle hating wizard learn all this?

[dehro]

Dehro: Frankly? I think it's fine to come up with new tactics, in and of itself. We're dealing with Evil Overlords (One just happens to be an order of magnitude more powerful). It can be assumed that they're smarter then us. Barring knowledge of the specifics of how the opponent's stuff works, it would seem that anything we can think of, they could. In general, anyway, that's the thinking. Obviously, Voldemort is crippled in some education respects because he's a wizard supremacist schmuck, but in terms of creativity, it's generally assumed that supposedly brilliant characters are smarter then us.

I agree they are smarter than us, all right.
what I'm saying is that we must consider also the psychology of the characters and what is likely to be their choice of action, desuming it from their actions in the books.

for all I can remember, Apparating is always used as a last resort, to flee a scene where things are going badly. (only exception could be Voldy, using it as a means to make a grand entry)
using it as a commando technique, having to literally hit and run, would Voldemort think of using this strategy? I'm not so sure of this, and even if he did, is this true also for his minions?
I have the feeling that Bellatrix, for one, would pop in, break havoc and sort of be caught up in a battle frenzy and stay, instead of using the pop-in pop-out maneuvre with a cold head.

I'm reading a lot of wild theories about how muggles would sweep all over the HP wizards and about how voldemort seems to be thinking armour is just a shiny set of clothes. while the first point is debatable (I think that muggles would be beaten simply because of fear, superstition, not having a clue and their leaders transformed in floating balloons or pigs in Dursley style)...
the second is a bit ridicolous.
hogwarts is full of armours, in the portraits, some of the ghosts, statues... wizards where there during the middle ages...they probably walked amongst the muggles, at the times, quite a lot...since no ministery of magic existed.
it's ridiculous to assume that Voldy would be so far ignorant as to not having a clue. not the finer points, and Sauron knows a lot more than him on the subject, and I still haven't read a viable technique involving swords (the buzzing/sawing/swirling blades is NOT working, as I said before, try it. take 2 breadknives and try it... see for yourself..they will crash into one another, or be ineffective, or very easy to repel, specially for a battle hardened fighter..and the more blades you add, the more crashing into one another you have)....ok, but let's not get carried away
In other words, given enough time, a strategic hideout and the possibility to study the matter, I'm sure Voldy would, eventually, come up with a better idea than swirling blades to pierce Sauron's defences (defences that consist in far more than a regular armour and involve for sure some seriously advanced magic)..but what would it accomplish? and would Sauron just sit and wait for his defences to be sundered and not react or counter-attack?

anyway, to return to my main objections..
you (ditto) are saying that the magic exists in HP universe, and that anybody who is a wizard can learn basically any spell.
if this is true, then there is a huge flaw in the HP plot, because there is, after Voldy's first demise, an overwelming number of good wizards that would never be on his side...and all they have to do is fight back Voldy and his very few (and scarcely motivated) minions..
unless this doesn't happen, plotwise, because Voldy has the advantage of Fear... of reputation, of having brought terror in the past, a past where his minions where aplenty.
right now, a very small portion of the "nice" wizards is fighting back, and this is how Voldy "almost" wins (against some very good wizards and a bunch of teenagers). without this fearsome reputation, Voldy would have had it very hard indeed managing to put together an army to attack hogwarts, in the last book, (and in the other books he is forced to hide.) Because of it, most of his potential opponents just run away and hide whenever they hear his name spoken, when in fact, there is no reason to. Dumbledore actually says it a number of times, that Voldy's main edge is the fear of other people towards him.

would Sauron or his minions suffer this malus? I think not.

anyway, if you don't mind, I'll try and put Sauron's clothes on.
Up untill now we've considered Voldy attacking him (ineffectively) and Sauron sitting about drinking tea and smoking longbottomleaf..
is this in Sauron's character? I think not!
yes, he waits, gathering his strenght for a millennium..but this has now passed..now it's time to make his move, right? the enemy is there, the ring is somehow irrelevant, so let's beat him up. (after all the main reason sauron has not attacked before, in LOTR; is that he was looking for his ring)

If Voldy is allowed to come up with new strategies, I'll have Sauron do the same.
he holds 2 nazgul as personal bodyguards, just to make sure that any apparating wizard gets a beating before he has time to decide which way to look for Sauron. he divides his legions in 7 armies, whargs, trolls, urukh-hai (if not sarumans', I guess he'll make some of his own..new strategies, remember?), mumakil, corsairs, archers and heavy infantry equally subdivided and well displaced around his side of the battlefield..let's say approximately 14.000 units per army, and I'm not making it up..there is mention of more than that, in the books.. one or two balrogs (depending on how may we alow in the game) acting as liason between the armies and random killers.
and now they attack.. if the battlefield is somehow enclosed in a very large area, voldy and his minions will have, sooner or later, to face the enemy and fight...if it's the whole world, they could manage to escape right up untill there are no more places to run because the orcs have destroyed, burned or eaten all of them...(and anyway that's no way to win a war, is it? )
and what could they do except running? fight, of course..
now, let's say all of the death eaters put together, (about a hunderd?) face only one of the armies... they have to face about 14k-15k enemies, cavetrolls, mumakil, orcs, archers, southerlings... all they could do is take out a few hunderd at a time, suffer heavy losses (because while you attack you also expose yourself, this is true in about any kind of fight)... and retreat...only to have to face the same army..(although severelly reduced in numbers )..but with lesser wizards on their side (and that is assuming none of the death eaters run away from the battle, wich is something several of them are known to do)..
and if they manage to destroy that one army, they still have another six to face.. and Sauron has not even pulled his sword.
if the death eaters don't act together but subdivided in smaller groups, this only increases the LOTR advantage.
as Voldy is allowed to learn from his mistakes, so will the nazgul and commanders of Sauron's army. therefore if HP wizards apply your favourite strategy (the hit and run through apparition), they will suffer some losses and learn to watch out for these sudden assaults... after a few rounds in favour of HP wizzys, their next apparition will be saluted by a solid wall of arrows and a charge of mumakil..(and the nazgul)..and that's pretty much the end of the story...and I have managed to destroy the Voldy faction using only what we read about in the books, tested and trusted tactics and common military maneuvres we can actually find examples of in LOTR...except the two nazgul as bodyguards.

after all, why should voldy have all the fun attacking?

[Ossian]

On the bright side, it IS an excuse to talk about Lord of the Rings.

So true. Nitpicking, Anarion, Isildur's brother, had been long dead by the time S. was forced out of Barad Dur to confront the heroes. Think that the siege lasted a crazy 10 years! (and Anarion didn't make it much past the beginning). Still, I must say that Sauron's power is a bit less obvious and flashy in late Third Age (when it was also not at his peak). But then again, his will power is so thick with malice and desire to dominate that the mere fact that he's "alive" demotivates the fighters in Minas Tirith and at the Morannon. Not just a rational consideration of "we are 5:1 if not worse they are 5:1 orcs and trolls". Something more akin to a sheer desperation of the hearts of men (which, must be said, had grown weaker by 3018 TA). He tricked Saurman into thinking that he could make it, if he really tried, and a powerful mind such as Denethor into lowering his defenses and letting his grasp on reality slowly break down. Sauro is not unbeatable, for sure. He gets beaten by Ar Pharazon, while WEARING the ring, and at the last alliance, still WEARING the ring. Nothing that could be achieved by the puny army of Gondor alone, but still evidence that he can be flanked and beaten to a pulp. After all, he's the villain, and just like Voldemort (where's the moral otherwise?) he's GOT to lose at some stage.

O.

[Ditto]

Sorry if I seem to be ignoring your posts, Dehro, I just reply to points as I scan down the thread. I said in my last post that I, too, get frustrated when I step back and find I'm debating one of the more specific and arcane points that really doesn't have any bearing on the thrust of the argument as a whole, and try to duck out when I notice it heads that way. I'll look back for specific items of yours I've overlooked.

Begin strong-willed is one thing. Being strong-willed in addition to being one of the three most highly-trained people in the world at preventing invasive mental coercion is another HUGE thing on top of that - something no one in LOTR has going for them. Also, the entire Numenorian race is strong-willed? Strong will is getting easier to come by...

Falling under Sauron's corrupting influence is certainly a possibility I acknowledge. It was cited as a reason Voldemort would not be able to deal with Sauron once he got the the final boss battle, and that's what didn't track.

Pay attention to wizard fighting, folks: Apparating wildly around between curses is actually the standard tactic for Serious Business duels, as we see with Dumbledore in Voldemort in HP5. I don't see why you wouldn't apply the same successful tactic against lesser *or* greater opponents. (The reason Apparating was not a factor in various other battles: In the Department of Ministries, it was a hunt with potshots.

I did not say Sauron has no powers. I said Sauron has very little in the way of *defined* powers. It’s likewise not detailed what the Ring does for Sauron, other than domination over the other rings of power (which seems to be its primary function). Therefore, the onus is on him in a cross-universe battle to explain in what way he would defeat/defend against his enemy, who already has a pretty well-defined set of abilities.

I'm applying RPG terms loosely because I think it helps define things a bit more. It's a mnemonic, that's all. And the RPG "Don't fight Sauron" point has been raised already; it would matter more if anyone thought the RPG counted as a source of canon. It's been generally panned, as far as it's labeled an adaptation of the trilogy universe.

What complex elements of military strategy and physics am I attributing to Voldemort? I'd be happy to re-examine them and rationalize why these points as either not-as-complicated-as-you-think or not necessary to the argument.

6 billion people? The entire world is attacking Britain! ZOMG! A nuclear warhead would most definitely be a pretty major problem, if wizards had cities and war materiel, and it wasn't impractical to nuke an area nestled in the middle of your country, and there are a lot of places to hide a smaller population in Britain alone. They couldn't nuke a nominally valid stationary target like Hogwarts, because it's absolutely impossible for Muggles to find.

Whether Sauron is immortal doesn't matter as much when he can still be killed. ::shrug::

Debating the physics of a buzzsaw is exactly the sort of unnecessarily detailed point we want to avoid. I'm trying to say he would launce a cutty pokey bladey thing at Sauron; we don't need to get into a discussion of proper blade-pommel balance. A lot of physics AND swordplay IS common sense; that doesn't mean anyone can be a good physicist or swordsman without practice. I can see how to fight with a sword and understand it just fine, but I'm miserably uncoordinated when I try something (yeah, I tried to follow those lightsaber-fighting tutorials on YouTube, you know you did too...). I love calculus and physics when it's explained and derived, and understand them intuitively, but I suck when they say "M'kay, now you do it!" Same thing applies. And come on, Sauron does not have a grasp of higher physics unless he's studied higher physics.

A caterwauling charm makes a loud wailing noise when any unauthorized person sets foot in a warded area. Repello X causes X to remember somewhere they'd really rather be when they approach the target within a certain broad radius. However instant Apparition is, the point is the shield charm doesn't fail until the wizard has disappeared and ceases to maintain it.

More precisely: 3 orcs flanking a stationary wizard > 1 stationary wizard. -Ish. I don't think vs. threads take years of siege warfare into account, it's pretty much one big thrust of a campaign. Summoning, Vanishing, flying into the farm area invisibly, and Transfiguring rocks to animals and eating the animals are all valid counters to food denial.

Here’s some for you Dehro! 1) Voldemort knows what armor is! (Thanks.) 2) Any wizard can learn any spell; that doesn’t mean Madame Malkins is going to be any good at hitting other wizards with Stunners or be okay with living alone in her house at night. She *can* cast these useful spells, and if the wizarding population rose up against Voldemort’s tyranny, they could certainly take the Death Eaters in a straight fight. But Voldemort didn’t exactly declare himself king (or declare himself at all) and openly invite such defiance. It’s true that most any repressed populace could rise up and overtake their taskmasters if EVERYone got in on it, but people are scared. There have been some examples of this sort of uprising taking place, but it’s scary to be the first guy to step forward, and your enemy can be quite literally anywhere.
3) I’ve never said that Sauron is standing still getting battered with spells and rocks doing nothing. I just don’t know what it is he *would* be doing, since the only thing we know he can do specifically is some pretty sick melee action. He’s perfectly welcome and able to try to pull off some sort of offense (other than “Behold! I will subtly depress you unto death over a series of months!”), if we can find one that is a) Ranged and b)…defined.
4) Death Eaters ran away in the middle of battle? Are you referring to something other than Malfoy ducking under spells to run from a lost battle and dive on his vulnerable son and wife without a wand?
5) I understand that the LOTRers will say “Gee, hit and run attacks suck. Let’s defend against that! By shooting arrows all the time, everywhere!” How are all of the orcs all archers prepared to shoot arrows anywhere, at any time, in all directions, *within the span of two seconds*? They don’t have *that* many arrows per orc that they can keep this up indefinitely, and I don’t know exactly what it is mumakil are going to charge. Adapting to attacks isn’t as easy is saying ‘We know what’s coming, and we’ll fix it.’
6) Finally, tried and true military tactics for defeating teleporting opponents have not been developed (so far as I know!) and could not have any real application. You don’t move the Eastern column in a broad flanking maneuver against a few men who aren’t even there any more.

[warty goblin]

A few points
1) I'm fairly sure that transfiguring rocks into animals and then killing them doesn't work, for the reason that there's a law of the HPverse that magic cannot create food from non-food. Granted we don't know that, but if it was possible, Hermione could just have transfigured some rocks into other foodlike stuff, say cabbage in book 7.
2)Repello X is frankly a guess that these spells exist- we only see the muggle version. Its a reasonable guess that such a thing could be created, but its still not in the books and it should be made clear that this is the case.
3)I'm pretty sure my five easy steps are a way to fight a teleporting army. Its not 100% foolproof, but I don't need it to be, it just needs to kill a wizard 5 or 10% of the time to work.
4) There's no reason that Sauron can't use a bow, or throw large rocks, or use his counterspells to lock Voldermort's magic down. He's not shown using a bow (or rocks) but he's not shown using melee weapons either, hence it is perfectly reasonable to guess that if he does use a melee weapon, he can also use a rangedweapon.
5) And finally, I see nobody has bothered to refute the last part of my plan,the cunning trap bit. I see no reason why this would not work, its both the sort of thing Sauron would do and the sort of thing Voldermort would fall into. We've agreed that non-Sauron magic does not work at Mt. Doom, so let me know how Voldermort's suddenly use-impaired wand does against Nazgul...

[Sebastian Bux]

Okay .. here's my two knuts...

Voldemort would win a fight vs. Sauron.

Why?

Because to defeat Voldemort, in the end, you have to kill him. When it comes down to your final confrontation with him, you have to actually find a way to kill him. To destroy Sauron, all you need is his ring.

Of course, it's probably not quite as easy as I make it sound. In fact, upon further reflection, one can't ignore some important considerations:

1 - Let's assume that Voldemort is smart enough to go into a fight with Sauron with at least One Horcrux somewhere. So he knows that worse case, Sauron kills him somehow and he's out for the count for a while until he finds another body and all that.

2 - Let's also assume for a moment that Voldemort has a way to remove Sauron's ring (also assuming he (Sauron) has taken humanish form again).

The question becomes what does Voldemort do with the ring once he has it in his possession? Would he destroy it at Mount Doom or would he be seduced by the magic of the ring? That's the real question then, because it's the ring that could win the fight for Sauron.

That's a pretty nasty ring. Frodo resisted it for a Looooong time .. but even so, he still lost that fight eventually. However, knowing Voldemort, he's probably thinking that the ring of Sauron would make an awesome Horcrux. What the hell would happen then. Since the ring already has Sauron's presense in it, how would it react to the spell?

You know, I'm now not sure who would win this fight.

The problem with villans doing battle with each other is that there's always a hero out there who is looking to put a stop to both of them. In the end they would both lose because Frodo would steal the ring and throw it in the lava, destroying Sauron and one of Voldemort's Horcruxes all at once, and then Harry would come along and finish Voldemort again.

Bah, I hate these kinds of questions

[WalkingTarget]

Begin strong-willed is one thing. Being strong-willed in addition to being one of the three most highly-trained people in the world at preventing invasive mental coercion is another HUGE thing on top of that - something no one in LOTR has going for them. Also, the entire Numenorian race is strong-willed? Strong will is getting easier to come by...

Most of the named Numenorians are hero-level baddass (well, the ones that actually get screen time doing something outside of the genealogies). The entire population was blessed by and lived within sight of the land of the gods. That was their reward for their works during the wars against Morgoth. During the heights of their civilization, elves would come out of the west to teach/give them things (and these would be the elves who basically lived with the gods). They are the High Men and represent all that man can hope to become (until they fell). Since willpower represents real power in Tolkien, they are formidable as a people.

I did not say Sauron has no powers. I said Sauron has very little in the way of *defined* powers. It’s likewise not detailed what the Ring does for Sauron, other than domination over the other rings of power (which seems to be its primary function). Therefore, the onus is on him in a cross-universe battle to explain in what way he would defeat/defend against his enemy, who already has a pretty well-defined set of abilities.

Well, the one very specific magic ability I've found reference to is the ability to stop someone else's magic from working. Very handy when dealing with people who rely on magic for even very mundane things.

And come on, Sauron does not have a grasp of higher physics unless he's studied higher physics.

The point can be made that since he was around when physics itself was designed (you know, when the universe was in the prototype stage, and being a smith god, he has a fair chance of being involved in the process directly) that he has a pretty good grasp on things.

I don't think vs. threads take years of siege warfare into account, it's pretty much one big thrust of a campaign.

Well, most vs. threads probably also don't count on years of warfare being one of the participant's primary MO in the source material. The reason there's so little description of what *exactly* Sauron can do in person it that he has vast armies and extremely competent/trustworthy lieutenants to do his work for him.

3) I’ve never said that Sauron is standing still getting battered with spells and rocks doing nothing. I just don’t know what it is he *would* be doing, since the only thing we know he can do specifically is some pretty sick melee action. He’s perfectly welcome and able to try to pull off some sort of offense (other than “Behold! I will subtly depress you unto death over a series of months!”), if we can find one that is a) Ranged and b)…defined.

Again, given that a defined power that Sauron has is stopping magic, he has plenty of time to get within melee range. (Sauron uses palantir to keep a fel-beast's-eye-view on his own location, he sees a wizard apparate in off to the left and begins to cast something, Sauron zooms view in, thinks "Not so fast, mister" at him, wizard tries to apparate out but finds that he can't, Sauron has orcs stab/shoot wizard or walks up and does it himself).

[dehro]

Sauron doesn't need to do any magic except resisting voldemorts'...
we know for a fact that he is unkillable and we know for a fact that he can comunicate with his nazgul instantaneously. all he needs to do is say "help" and they will come flying towards him an voldy..
and against a couple of nazguls (also I already placed 2 on Sauron's heels as bodyguards), Voldemort would be hard put to even reach Sauron with wathever spell of choice. he would have to retreat once more...and no matter how many times he tried it, the outcome would be the same...remember, nazgul, and probably sauron too, don't sleep, don't eat, don't get tired...voldy and his troops do.
I am not saying that voldemort is easy to kill, I am saying that voldemort has to be lucky every time he attacks, if he wants to bring substantial damage.. and insanely clever and lucky and assisted by some divinity to harm Sauron(what is substantial anyway? 100 orcs? a balrog? 2000 orcs? how many can voldy kill for each such "hit and run"?? how long will it take to get rid of those 100.000 pawns of Sauron?..and what stops Sauron from breeding some more??)
Sauron's troops have only to react to the attacks...sooner or later, one of them will manage a pot shot and kill 1 wizard....taking out 1% of his "core fighters"..
how many of Sauron's must a wizard kill to even the score?
wizards must be flawless at rizing their protections, and at attacking, and at apparating and disapparating somewhere safe, assuming that the place is still safe when they apparate back.
how long can they go on without making an error?
there is also another aspect of LOTR magic that could work in Sauron's advantage if we sort of agree on a common ground rule.
LOTR magic "resonates" to the magically adept...exactly in the same way the ministry can detect magic happening... this means that not only the apparating and disapparating would leave traces, but also the locations would be, in the end, marked down... if any wizard makes the mistake of disapparating to safety in one selected place, he is bound to find a nazgul waiting for him, sooner or later.
this means that the "jump out" has to be planned in a new place every time... and sooner or later there will be no more new places.. or at random, and then you might just apparate by mistake in the cage of a cavetroll.

on the other hands, if only one tenth of the troops of Sauron has ranged attacks, this still leaves about 10.000 arrows, spears, boulders, spells being trown at an attacking wizard... how big are the chances that said wizard manages to charm himself out of 10.000 projectiles not one, but several times? he might get lucky or be very good for half a day of attacks... maybe for a couple of days...but in the end each one of the wizards will end up making a mistake or reacting too late.
(after al timing, skill and reflexes are the deciding factors in magic duels, since they use broadly the same spells.... hence it is obvious that these qualities sometimes are not responding 100%...and this leaves openings for common projectiles just as it leaves them for spells.)
Voldy's demise, in the end, is really just a matter of numbers.

I've said before that muggles in the HP would not stand a chance against the wizarding world because
1) the wizarding world is made of a very very high number of people able to turn them into mashmallows, very well integrated both in the territory and in the government.
2)because they would not have a clue what they're up against.

Sauron's liege are no muggles..they know about magic and are, to a certain extent, prepared for it or immune, or warded by their overlords.
why was it that Sauron could not penetrate Lorien? because the very trees and all of the elven in Lorien where warded against intrusion by Galadriel her powers..and there is no reason to think that Sauron would not be able to ward his more valuable troops against some of the magic (and that is only necessary where by nature, equipment or education these troops are not already warded on their own).

[Sebastian Bux]

There's also the fact that Voldemort loses his wand and he's screwed and Sauron always has his powers. Even if he dies. (One ring.) Then again Voldemort has several soul things, but they don't corrupt and have a mind of their own like the ring does.

Unless you take Sauron's ring ... in that respect, they are probably equal. Although there are lots of wands .. there is only ONE ring of power.

And actually his Horcruxs do have the ability to corrupt the minds of others (Ginny is corrupted by the diary in The Chamber of Secrets, which we find out in Half Blood Prince was a Horcrux).


Separately,
I'd like to mention that this vs. would actually be better served on a neutral playing field. Both forces plucked from their respective settings (Voldemort from J.K.'s Earth and Sauron from Tolkien's Middle Earth) and dropped onto a world that has resources both can use. Both fighters have their respective power, but much start from scratch to conquer the world, and in the end, each other.

It would also have to include a Mount Doom equivelant (since this is a major weakness of Sauron's) and it should also include a Harry Potter type, because in the end, this was Lord Voldemort's undoing. The One Ring and Harry Potter are the key's to each side. It gives both sides purpose and strength (yes, Harry Potter was a strength to Voldemort) as well as provides them with a major weakness.

There are plenty of Muggles and Wizard folk around as well as Elves and dwarves and hobbits. Technology wise, the world is probably medieval in setting, since neither side requires technology to fight effectively. Propaganda can be utilized by Voldemort through owls and post so TV isn't required.

NOW you have a playing field that is conducive to a realistic battle between Sauron and Voldemort.

To Recap:
Sauron and Voldemort are both dropped on a fresh world with plenty of resources available to battle it out, each with their strengths and weaknesses present on this world to help or hinder them, or they other side.

Eventually they become aware of each other and a battle begins leading to the eventual loss of one or the other (or both) sides.

Who wins?

[Rutee]

Also, whoever keeps suggesting that Muggle would roll over wizards with tanks and computers and ultralightairplane scouts: Magic futzes with technology. It's sort of like this 'No magic on Mount Doom', but for anywhere the wizarding population lives.

That was me, no it doesn't. Harry wears mundane watches (at the Weasley's), and GLASSES are mundane technology. They seem to work perfectly all the time.

It happens in *Hogwarts*, sure, but Hogwarts would need to be pretty darn singular in that (Not the ONLY one, but it'd need to be rare as hell) for it to earn a mention in Hogwarts, A History. Further, *Ron* forgets this. Constantly. It's not SOP for Wizards, it's a Hogwarts idiosyncrasy.

Which really only plays into what I said earlier. "The best Wizards can hope for is that they manage to fall back to a perfect defensible position, because they're never going to /win/". If this were Arcanum: Of Steamworks and Magick Obscura, you might have a point, but even that one is a two way street; Tech screws with Magic just as hard, in that setting.

A caterwauling charm makes a loud wailing noise when any unauthorized person sets foot in a warded area. Repello X causes X to remember somewhere they'd really rather be when they approach the target within a certain broad radius. However instant Apparition is, the point is the shield charm doesn't fail until the wizard has disappeared and ceases to maintain it.

That... seems to be a suggestion spell. That suggestion is going to fail on Orcs, or people LOOKING for wizards. They /don't/ have something else they're looking for. And uh, proof please? The shield Charm drops when you start doing something else. Why would it maintain itself long enough for an Apparation Cast and not an offensive hex cast if both have the same casting length?

1) Voldemort knows what armor is!

V is remarkably quotable. There is a vast gulf between knowing what it is and knowing a lot about it. Case in point: You know what a Nuclear Reactor does. Without checking Wikipedia or any other outside information, tell me how it works. If you happen to know that, I guarantee I can find something. Voldemort knows that it blocks weapons. I doubt he knows how to get past it.

A repeated question for anyone who thinks Voldemort can in fact win.
*How will he actually hurt Sauron*?

[Sebastian Bux]

A repeated question for anyone who thinks Voldemort can in fact win. *How will he actually hurt Sauron*?

We know that a sword (forged by elves) can cut his fingers off ... it could be extrapolated that the Sword of Gryfindor could also do so. Voldemort chops off the ring (again) and brings it to Apparates somewhere close to Mount Doom and then walks it the rest of the way in and destroys it.

Better yet, since obviously the Sword of Gryfindor would not work for Voldemort (although killing Sauron would be considered couragous given the implications of Sauron taking over the world) he would probably have to trick someone who COULD use the sword (Nevell Longbottom) into performing the heroic act instead. Then it gets chucked ....

Voldemort could do it... he could beat Sauron.


I mean, look at Sauron's track record. He couldn't even find two little hobbits right under his nose. His Nosgoul (however you spell that) were ineffective in tracking it down. I don't see how Sauron is going to find any Horcruxes with his forces.

[Ditto]

I didn't respond to the cunning trap part because it followed from the "Several years later..." set-up, which I didn't really see happening. In any event, as soon as Voldemort stepped over the line that said "Whoa... AMF!", he would step back and jet. There's no way he going anywhere near a magical dead zone.

Gant's Laws of Transfiguration say you cannot create food. You can create animals. Therefore, for the purposes of The Rules, animals are not (principally) food. You then roast the animals (or eat some raw fish), and you have accomplished food. The reason Hermione didn't is... well, can you see that sweet girl slaughtering a goat? I mean, it's not *that* kind of magic. It's easy enough to nick food from Muggle towns if they're careful, though, so it never comes to that. Put them on a desert island, though, and those rock-goats are toast.

I thought it was stated that he took down Our Heroes "with a mighty blow", which implied a melee sweep to me. "Burned by the heat of his body" likewise implies close proximity. It is inference though, and I'm not saying he can't use a bow. But it would be as effective as any other bow has been.
Sauron can stop enemies' magic from working on Mount Doom/around Mordor. That's different from being a walking AMF.

(Sauron uses palantir to keep a fel-beast's-eye-view on his own location, he sees a wizard apparate in off to the left and begins to cast something, Sauron zooms view in, thinks "Not so fast, mister" at him, wizard tries to apparate out but finds that he can't, Sauron has orcs stab/shoot wizard or walks up and does it himself).

That's his version of an attack. A wizard version is "Bamf, castidy cast cast, Bamf". Took about 50 less words, and doesn't rely on using a supertelescope to spot one new figure in a field of thousands, and using a ranged mindpunch on someone who isn't holding the other end of a palantir.

Can you cite something about this resonating-magic trail thing? I've not heard that before. And I don't see how that is useful... are you going to park a Nazgul on one spot that someone once apparated off of and hope that they return? Being safe in the backfield is pretty much guaranteed, since they can be a hundred miles away with a thought in addition to all of the previously mentioned defenses. Getting hit during duels is largely due to 'trading blows', switching between attack and defense (which is often hex deflecting as much as the Shield charm) while running around... and apparating wildly about.
Sauron's servants are not immune to magic. The Nazgul are arguably (*arguably*) immune to death(-ish) effects, but nothing else can claim magic-bouncing hide. And even if we grant Sauron some ranged dampening field ability, he can only be in one place at a time. As you say, his army is a big place.

Glasses are a modern technology? First off, they're pretty old news, but in any event she's referring to modern electronics, of course. And it's not something a wizard just naturally casts off, but due to an intense concentration of magic; it follows that anywhere you can focus enough energy, you can futz with the tech. But Muggles vs. wizards is another thread entirely.

Repello X is not conjecture; there are several versions of the spell available, depending on the target warded. (I made an entire HP system, I'm pretty up on the finer points of spells. ) You can repulse a designated object from yourself, a designated object from an object/location, a category of things from you, or a category of things from an object/location, with increasing levels of complexity and bigness. You don't even necessarily have to say Repello Orcum - Repello is technically sufficient. (Compare Accio.) So that spell stays in the arsenal.

Sebastian, you've come late to this party. Neutral playing field, killing Sauron or Voldemort once in their physical form is a sufficient win condition, so the Ring and the horcruxes aren't in this world and don't matter anyway. And... well, there's another 25 pages of things. And you're a dwarf now, congrats.

[Tyriq]

I'm going to disagree with the majority here... Voldemort has 7 horcuxes while Sauron just has the 1.

[Sebastian Bux]

Sebastian, you've come late to this party. Neutral playing field, killing Sauron or Voldemort once in their physical form is a sufficient win condition, so the Ring and the horcruxes aren't in this world and don't matter anyway. And... well, there's another 25 pages of things. And you're a dwarf now, congrats.

Hmm, maybe I'll just stay out of this then and watch. I don't think it's reasonable to take either of those factors out of play for either side and still have a good debate on who would win. And I don't really want to go back and read all 25 pages just to geek out. I prefer random acts of geekyness, thank you very much

And yay! Dwarfdom!

[warty goblin]

OK, fine, entraping Voldermort is difficult. Sauron camps Mt. Doom, where Voldermort won't go, and sends out lots of disposible minions to conquer as per my strategy. Please explain how the "several years later" bit won't occur in this senario.

Or change the location of the trap, say Minas Morgul, or Barad-dur itself. Voldermort shows up, and if he *succeeds* he in fact accomplishes nothing, since the rumor will be fake, and thus cause lots of angst and doubt and dispair over Sauron's apparent invulnerability. If not, he gets caught and shanked on the way, preferably by a Morgul knife, for additional wraithy goodness, because there's always room for another wraith...

I agree that the sword of Gryfindor is a somewhat reasonable parallel to elven and numenorian weapons, and so should be counted as a possible way to kill off Sauron. Now find a weilder who can have a hope of besting Sauron in melee combat. Somehow I doubt the Death Eaters have one of them anywhere...

reppello mugalum works by making muggles remembering urgent appointments elsewhere- orcs don't really have appointments. And muggles can in fact see Hogwarts, they just see it as a ruined castle, but they can find it. Anyway, if Voldermort is reduced to hiding out in one or two safe spots, with the rest of the world under enemy control, I think it safe to say that he's lost, eventually all of the death eaters will die of old age and he'll slip coming out of the bath and die of brain trauma.

One point about the transfiguration of rocks into animals, we don't know what happens when the transfigured goat is killed or has pieces severed- its just as reasonable to say that they revert to rock as it is to say that they don't. In fact, given the noted law of Transfiguration, I would say that if that law is in fact a universally true law of magic, severed pieces of a transfigured animal would be forced to revert to their "natural" form.

[WalkingTarget]

Gant's Laws of Transfiguration say you cannot create food. You can create animals.

I haven't been involving myself in the food discussions here, but this strikes me as just a major inconsistency in the HP books. I haven't gotten to where Gant's Laws are discussed yet, but if whoever determined that "animals" don't count as "food" must be an 8th level Vegan or something.

That's his version of an attack. A wizard version is "Bamf, castidy cast cast, Bamf". Took about 50 less words, and doesn't rely on using a supertelescope to spot one new figure in a field of thousands, and using a ranged mindpunch on someone who isn't holding the other end of a palantir.

I said nothing about mindpunch (although I admit I wasn't completely clear). Let's ignore minions entirely and see what a wizard can do to Sauron. The use of the palantir in my example was so that he can keep an eye on a larger area than his immediate surroundings. Do we have any hard data for how far away a HP spell can be cast from? Any evidence of spells being cast from farther away than, say, the length of a quidditch field? (I'm not quite to book 5 yet) If visual range is a requirement, then we can probably dispense with the palantir as well. If there is no range limit at all, then this won't work so well to trap the wizard, but I haven't seen evidence to support that yet and he could still counter incoming spells.

My version - Sees something appear close enough to be a threat, focuses his mind on that spot, says "that spell stops working, yeah that one too, and that one" (this is not an AMF, this is his specific, personal ability to stop magic from working that is demonstrated in the source text). This is all at the speed of thought. Sure, the wizard could run away as none of this is effecting the wizard himself, but I'd say Sauron has a good chance of catching up eventually and proximity-burning him to death (without even a single blow).

Glasses are a modern technology? First off, they're pretty old news, but in any event she's referring to modern electronics, of course.

What kind of watch does Harry have? Is it specified if it's a wind-up kind or not? Could be another inconsistency since it only stopped working after he got it wet (and one would think that a magic watch would be made waterproof). Unimportant point, it just occurred to me though.

[Rutee]

We know that a sword (forged by elves) can cut his fingers off ... it could be extrapolated that the Sword of Gryfindor could also do so. Voldemort chops off the ring (again) and brings it to Apparates somewhere close to Mount Doom and then walks it the rest of the way in and destroys it.

Better yet, since obviously the Sword of Gryfindor would not work for Voldemort (although killing Sauron would be considered couragous given the implications of Sauron taking over the world) he would probably have to trick someone who COULD use the sword (Nevell Longbottom) into performing the heroic act instead. Then it gets chucked ....

Voldemort could do it... he could beat Sauron.


I mean, look at Sauron's track record. He couldn't even find two little hobbits right under his nose. His Nosgoul (however you spell that) were ineffective in tracking it down. I don't see how Sauron is going to find any Horcruxes with his forces.

*Facepalm*
Notwithstanding that we kept heroes out of this (Because it's a huge tilt towards Sauron. Voldemort can actually be beaten in a direct confrontation by his heroic opposition, which, honestly, should be a pretty big tip on who would win...), as well as neutral parties (Because it's a huge tilt towards Voldemort; Why /wouldn't/ Britain nuke the hell out of Mordor, if it's possible? I doubt it'd get Sauron or the Nazgul, but plowing through several hundred thousand Orcs is handy too.), who in the HP-verse can actually wield a sword on par with the legendary swordsmen who it took to bring Sauron down? Those are people who've been training from a presumably young age in swordplay.

If you're going to say *Neville* is vaguely on their level, I'm going to have to stop listening to you because you carry such a ridiculous bias that it's not funny. As the meme goes, one does not simply walk into Mortor, and if any idiot with a magic sword = auto-win (I will not debate that Gryffindor's sword is powerfully magical. I'm pretty sure it breaks a Horcrux or 2. Just the skill of any potential wielder in the HP-verse with it), then Sauron simply would not be a legitimate threat for as long as he has been.

Hmm, maybe I'll just stay out of this then and watch. I don't think it's reasonable to take either of those factors out of play for either side and still have a good debate on who would win. And I don't really want to go back and read all 25 pages just to geek out. I prefer random acts of geekyness, thank you very much

If you count phylacteries, you tilt it towards SAuron. Voldemort's Phylacteries are apparently just enough to overwhelm 10 year old schoolchildren but stop quite short of doing anything nearly as much as the Ring. (I know the deal with the resurrection stone, or whatever; It strikes me that the real temptation there comes from what the Horcrux is /made/ from, not that it's a Horcrux. That is, Dumbledore would want to wear it, period, Horcruxness be damned). They're also easier (Relatively) to break. At worst, bring them to Sauron, who surely has powerful enough magic to sunder them (Since powerful magic is the only necessary thing.) You have to find an uncorruptable Death Eater (There's an oxymoron) to go break the One Ring, which means involving phylacteries pretty much means Voldemort is deader then a fishstick at a cat festival, because he can never truly win.

Glasses are a modern technology? First off, they're pretty old news, but in any event she's referring to modern electronics, of course. And it's not something a wizard just naturally casts off, but due to an intense concentration of magic; it follows that anywhere you can focus enough energy, you can futz with the tech. But Muggles vs. wizards is another thread entirely.

It wouldn't be much of a thread, guy. That kind of magic concentration is really only found in a 500 year old academy that has 24/7 constant spellslinging and persistant magic.

Notwithstanding that if it's just modern electronics.. well that does in fact partially hurt muggles, but it wouldn't cripple some of the mainstays...

One point about the transfiguration of rocks into animals, we don't know what happens when the transfigured goat is killed or has pieces severed- its just as reasonable to say that they revert to rock as it is to say that they don't. In fact, given the noted law of Transfiguration, I would say that if that law is in fact a universally true law of magic, severed pieces of a transfigured animal would be forced to revert to their "natural" form.

Yeah.. that's probably what happens if everybody has to /pay/ for their food. Why would anyone spend money on it if they could just magic it up? (Actual question, mind).

[WalkingTarget]

You have to find an uncorruptable Death Eater (There's an oxymoron) to go break the One Ring,

You'd have to find an uncorruptable anything. From the source text, not even squeaky-clean hobbitses actually had the ability to willfully destroy it.

Better off with an extremely clumsy death eater and big one to carry him to Mount Doom and hope that he eventually falls in by accident. Of course, we seem to be ignoring the various soul-thingies, so it's irrelevant.