Sauron vs Voldemort

[Hawriel]

you know Im really wondering why every one on A VS thread automaticly start spewing crap about armies, stratagies, best friends and flunkies. Most VS threads are clearly ment to put two characters alone together and have them fight it out. Thunderdome style. You stick them in a ring, a bald guy yells out lets get it on, then a bell is rung. Two characters at the hight of their skill, power, and ability thats it. If their bigest power is political manupulation well then their SOL.

so under this thinking Voldemort and Souron would be standing in a colosseum with their full power, what ever that may be. Im shure Souron would very much define his level of power if he wanted to. I do believe that Souron would not even come close to needed it to kill Voldimort. Then again because Souron is a devious bastard who loves to corrupt peaple. He might just take his ring off and toss it to Voldy. Why because Souron with all his wisdom and insight that he had sence he was alive befor the world was created would see that Voldy is a small minded petty vandictive power mad child. He would fall victim to the rings corrupting influence befor he can slip it on his finger.

edit. PS
sorry I forgot to mention.
My coment that Souron is Satan was ment to be an analogy or comparison to what Sourons power level or role is in the LORT books. I did not mean to say that he was Satan or exactly like Satan, just a form of Satan anolog. Also to be honest its been ten years sence Ive read LOTR or the Silmerilion. I thought Morgoth or Melkor or who ever was a previos incarnation of Souron. Souron has had other names through out history. He has tried many times to take over the world and all that. Maybe I remember wrong. Like I said its been ten years.

[Rutee]

The OP pretty explicitly goes into the servants and forces at each one's disposal. I'm not psychic, but I imagine he did indeed intend for EVERYTHING to get accounted for. Honestly, a duel isn't a contest, and it wouldn't be an interesting mental exercise. More fun to try and figure out stuff when everything's taken into account.

[Ditto]

Indeed. It's team vs. team, even if the thread title doesn't say as much.

Entrapping Voldemort, in general, is a clever idea. Setting him up for an anticlimactic final strike is fun. It doesn't defeat him or anything, but still fun.

That's exactly the way Repello works. You don't have to like it, nor do you have to understand the orcish mind. I'll leave it up to your imagination what sorts of appointments orcs have. Just because they don't go to the dentist doesn't mean they don't have places to be. Maybe they'll realize that the current location is particularly uninteresting, and their time would be far better spent searching elsewhere.

The sword of Gryffindor is definitely an appropriate weapon. It's not in Voldemort's arsenal, though. I mean, the sword's a sword and can be used by anyone, but he only had it for a little while in Bellatrix's vault and never intended on using it as a weapon. (Say... if we don't know even what kind of weapon Sauron had, how do we know he's such a good combatant? Voldemort conjured a sword and shield in HP5 for a minute, so he's familiar with the concept. We know that much! )

It is not, in fact, logical to assume things revert to their untransfigured forms. Transfiguration is permanent. To wit, the corpse of Mr. Bartemius Crouch, Sr., exists to this day as a bone buried in the Forbidden Forest. Conjuration has a limit; Vanishing pulls things from elsewhere; but morphing is just rearranging atoms, and the world doesn't necessarily care whether this furball is a rat or a cat, in the end. People pay for food because it's a pain to butcher things, and icky to watch the cow actually die, I suppose. Irrespective of the wizard economy, killing rock-goats is within the rules of magic.

I don't know that there is an actual range limit... at least there's no indication of such. Farther than a Quidditch field would be, for instance, Harry summoning his broom from the castle across the lake. The practical range limit, though, is pretty much line of sight for simplicity's sake. Does Sauron need a palantir? I thought *he* was all-lookingatyou enough as-is. (Still doesn't mean he'll spot one new guy on a battlefield - he has to *know* where to point that thing.) Wizards will be much farther away than a few dozen feet, so I don't know when Sauron will have the time to even track his position, much less spot a spell (which may or may not have a visual launch) and dispel it.

[warty goblin]

Gant's law states that it is impossible to magically create food- hence ruling out transfiguration. Barty Crouch's body was transfigured into a non-food item after he was dead, a very different thing from transfiguring, then killing him. I realize this is an interpretation thing at this point, but I personally feel that this rules out actual magical creation of food.

Regardles, as previously stated, it seems more than likely that Sauron can detect magic over vast distances, hence making turning rocks into pigs a somewhat riskly business, particularly given that butchering takes time. For instance it took me, my father and my sister somewhat over two hours to dto dress a single hog to be roasted whole, to say nothing of making and curing cuts. Keep in mind that dad has been doing this for the last 20 years, and my sister for the last 10, so it wasn't that we didn't know what we were doing. It was also a fairly small pig, not more that 120 pounds. I don't think most of the Death Eaters have jobs down at the slaughter plant somehow, so even with magic it would take them considerably longer, at least at first. This also requires tools such as knives, some way to hang the kill to drain it, etc. The Death Eaters could conjure these implements, but they have to think of them, and given their distaste for, and lack of skill at, manual labor, this is far from certain.

...this also doesn't cover how exactly the Death Eaters will avoid scurvy if they're living off of meat all the time, unless they're willing to start eating it raw,which carries a lot of infection risks. And due to their lack of understanding of nutrition (since they've never been taught about it), they won't even know to do this.

Conclusion- even if they can magically create meat (which is far from certain), its a far cry from being well off in the food department, and will occupy significant amounts of their time and comprimize their mobility as well.

[Ditto]

I guess this essay about wizard food I posted in the education thread... have you examined the menu at Howarts? Lemons and limes weren't exactly staples of the diet. Pumpking pasties, treacle tart, bangers and mash, bacon and eggs and pancakes and and and... not only do wizards bounce, they have furnaces for stomachs. Scurvy is not a concern.
Transfiguration still works. We know you can transfigure animals, and you cannot transfigure food. Therefore, animals do not count as food. Since transfiguration is an instant and permanent effect, you now have a goat to milk or filet.

Gandalf said he was detected in decidedly ambiguous terms; this does not indicate an ability on Sauron or Saruman's part to detect magic or magical items. And even *if* he did detect a magical effect... what good is it if he finds they're picnicking back in the Shire while he's still in Mordor? (So to speak.) The wizards could *advertise* their next night's resting place, because it will be unreachable for at least the amount of time it would take to travel there.

[The_Snark]

Gandalf said he was detected in decidedly ambiguous terms; this does not indicate an ability on Sauron or Saruman's part to detect magic or magical items. And even *if* he did detect a magical effect... what good is it if he finds they're picnicking back in the Shire while he's still in Mordor? (So to speak.) The wizards could *advertise* their next night's resting place, because it will be unreachable for at least the amount of time it would take to travel there.

Well, for most of his minions. The Nazgul fell-beasts are extremely fast; it's hard to get a reading for exactly how fast, but they covered the distance between the Black Gate and Mount Doom at a frightening pace. It's at least 30 miles, and they were there... well, not quite in time, but fast enough that they were caught up in the eruption and destroyed. I'd put it at 15 minutes, maximum. That was clearly their top speed, and it seems likely they'd have to slow down, but Gandalf indicated it was not unfeasible for a Nazgul to reach Isengard from Barad-Dur in the space of a single night.

So doing that risks a night attack by Nazgul, which is not fun. At all; they're strongest and see best by night, and the surprise would only reinforce the sudden terror. A Caterwauling Charm wouldn't really extend far enough to provide you with much useful warning given their speed (and height).

Of course, Voldemort would know to move further away for the night and set guards after the first attack, but I doubt he'd get away from the first one without taking losses... and attrition is on Sauron's side.

Incidentally, it's never made clear how much of Sauron's ability to see things far off was from the palantir and how much of his ability was his own. The palantir let him twist other people's scrying, but we don't really know if he could see things far off without it.

[Rutee]

While it's true that a revealed position is not necessarily an accessible one, if it's done with regularity, you can expect him to field the flying Nazgul, probably spread out a bit to try to make sure to catch them.

...Assuming he can send orders through a mental link with them anyway.

That's exactly the way Repello works. You don't have to like it, nor do you have to understand the orcish mind. I'll leave it up to your imagination what sorts of appointments orcs have. Just because they don't go to the dentist doesn't mean they don't have places to be. Maybe they'll realize that the current location is particularly uninteresting, and their time would be far better spent searching elsewhere.

How.. petulant. "It works because it does". Proper search patterns have an order to them, and I suspect that given Gondor's guerilla warfare, Sauron knows it. To my knowledge, it's never demonstrated that Repello <Person> can stop someone determined, and given how it's explained, it seems like determination to get into someplace makes it ineffective. Onus is on *you* explain and cite why this is not the case, given that we're going off the in-setting explanation and logically following from there.

The sword of Gryffindor is definitely an appropriate weapon. It's not in Voldemort's arsenal, though. I mean, the sword's a sword and can be used by anyone, but he only had it for a little while in Bellatrix's vault and never intended on using it as a weapon. (Say... if we don't know even what kind of weapon Sauron had, how do we know he's such a good combatant? Voldemort conjured a sword and shield in HP5 for a minute, so he's familiar with the concept. We know that much! )

Context? I mean, it's probably better for you that he's something of a melee ISP. It's probably even worse for Voldemort if he held off the most powerful men of his era purely through magic.

...Granted, I think we're well past "Last nail in the coffin"...

Anyway, I doubt Voldemort has any real proficiency in it, and I have every reason to believe that he (as well as many other, but not all, wizards) are weak-as-hell, in an objectively physical sense. It'd be slightly less then surprising if *I* could beat them up in melee, to me, really.. they don't work out, they don't do any form of strenuous labor, they don't /care/ about physical health (seemingly, at least), and they're older (which matters when you're mortal).

I don't know that there is an actual range limit... at least there's no indication of such. Farther than a Quidditch field would be, for instance, Harry summoning his broom from the castle across the lake. The practical range limit, though, is pretty much line of sight for simplicity's sake. Does Sauron need a palantir? I thought *he* was all-lookingatyou enough as-is. (Still doesn't mean he'll spot one new guy on a battlefield - he has to *know* where to point that thing.) Wizards will be much farther away than a few dozen feet, so I don't know when Sauron will have the time to even track his position, much less spot a spell (which may or may not have a visual launch) and dispel it.

It's not really feasible, at all, to just retreat the second you've taken your first action. I mean, I won't debate that you can flee like a Sima if you do it, but you won't actually accomplish anything without an absolutely perfect setup.

That said, I don't doubt spells go off until they hit something, just remember what Warty Goblin already mentioned about EFFECTIVE spell ranges due to how fast (or slow, in this case) they move.

[Grod_The_Giant]

simplest way to compare this? Relative power levels. If Sauron::Voldermort, then Gandalf::Dumbledoor. Hmm...

Dumbledoor- the most powerful 'good' wizard- could go face-to-face with Voldermort and have 50-50 odds of winning, in my estimation. If Gandalf- the most powerful 'good' wizard in his setting went face-to-face with Sauron, its over in seconds. Also, look at servants- Death Eaters and Demetors could be driven off by students- it took powerful people (Gandalf, Aragorn,etc) to drive off Nazgul.

[Rowanomicon]

Not eating optimally healthy food doesn't equal immunity to scurvy.
Also, give me my time back! The only thing worse than the fact that someone took the time to find every food referenced in HP is the fact that I read the list they made.

...And what the last three people said...

[warty goblin]

So now the 'Wizard gene" not only grants the ability to work a wand right, it also makes you immune to malnutrition, because the books never mention somebody eating a salad or drinking lemondade?

The books also only contain one or two references I can think of to going to the bathroom, so clearly wizards can hold it for absolute ages. Must be the vanishing spells.


I also seem to remember quite a few references to people consuming various kinds of vegetable matter throughout, a far cry from subsisting on rock-derived goat.

[Rowanomicon]

The books also only contain one or two references I can think of to going to the bathroom, so clearly wizards can hold it for absolute ages. Must be the vanishing spells.

*gasp!* And the books contain no references what so ever to Voldemort being vanquished by Sauron. This must mean that Voldemort can't be defeated by Sauron!

OK, you win this thread, Ditto.

...darn...

[warty goblin]

*gasp!* And the books contain no references what so ever to Voldemort being vanquished by Sauron. This must mean that Voldemort can't be defeated by Sauron!

OK, you win this thread, Ditto.

...darn...

But of course LOTR contains no reference to Sauron being destroyed by magic- therefore its impossible. So Sauron cannot be killed and Voldermort can't beat him! Guess they'll just stand around missing each other for a couple years until they get bored.

[dehro]

Say... if we don't know even what kind of weapon Sauron had, how do we know he's such a good combatant?

Melkor had an army, initially made mostly of lesser Maiar. Sauron whas his right hand, the greatest of said Maiar, and has had a part in most of his accomplishments.
The Valar and the Maiar actually fight, since Tulkas and Osse are described litterally as fighters and wrestlers...
this means that they've had quite a scrap over the ages, with Melkor's forces.
Sauron has survived all those epic battles and escaped his master's fate, so either he's very good at hiding and running, or he's a very good fighter...or both.
Sauron is first and foremost a leader of armies, and a smith of epic skill.
given this informations about him, I don't need it to be spelled out that he is also a good fighter (and LOTR is a bit different from d&d... those who are "great" are so in many different ways, most if not all of the magic wielders of any notice are also considered amongst the best warriors.

[Ditto]

Okay, fine. If the Nazgul move that fast, then the wizards *won't* advertise their position. Good luck crossing the entire world in 8 hours every night and conducting a thorough search of the area for something that's ten kinds of undetectable, at least in that timeframe. And, as Rutee points out, it's not clear that he can directly communicate with the Nazgul. "Stop, come back." "Try harder!" and "UNDER ATTACK, ACK ACK!" are simple enough to express, but beyond that the degree of contact is unclear.

I forgot to add the :smalltonuge: after "At least we know Voldemort has used a sword!." My bad. How is the spell's description insufficient? They aren't determined to find a specific place, they're hunting for people, which is certainly different enough to make even the "I can find Hogwarts if I really want to!" idea not work. And Hermione would have mentioned that someone's found their way onto the Hogwarts grounds "because they were really determined!" if it were possible - that's her function as exposition girl. I see no reason to expect that you can ignore a spell "If you really want to." And even granting that (again), he could be determined that the search pattern in this area is complete and/or fruitless, and determinedly move on to the next sector. And how is a grunt orc going to detect an invisible tent? And there are still all the other kinds of defenses.

It's totally feasible to disappear after taking your first action. It works with Fiendfyre and the orcs. But he's not retreating as in "Withdraw to fight another day", he's moving away to he can take another potshot from a different angle a few seconds later.

Grod, your analogies don't track at all. V:D and S:G assume there is a constant in the relative powers of Good and Evil in the Universe. If V and D are evenly matched, they could *both* eat Sauron for breakfast, for all we know. If children can drive off dementors, that could mean either that dementors were (relatively) weak, OR that ALL students/magic in HP is overwhelmingly strong, OR that the Nazgul are weaker/stronger than dementors, but the heroes in Middle Earth didn't have Patronuses at their disposal and thus were majorly screwed.

And Rowan, you know there are much more obsessive lists of things from Tolkein's works. Hell, he *wrote* most of them... appendices featuring genealogies for families that don't appear within generations of the books?

o now the 'Wizard gene" not only grants the ability to work a wand right, it also makes you immune to malnutrition

That is correct.
Ha ha, guys. Very clever. You know the difference between 'Never saw it, never happened' and 'Saw lots of not-this happening, can expect not-this to happen'. Dehro's logic on why Sauron's a good combatant is the latter.
You see people eating all the time because stuff happens while people eat. Sadly, important conversations about plot items don't usually happen on the john. In any event, the great number of meal descriptions give us a good idea of what the majority of Hogwarts' and wizards' menu in general looks like.

[warty goblin]

OK, here's the revised method for Sauron's complete domination of the world.

1) reduce most of the world to toxic slag as before, saving only the best regions for agriculture. Expand outward every year, bringing more and more area under domination.

2) Save some wooded regions for bow and arrow manufacture, arm all troops with bows. Guard every agricultural installation with lots of archers.

3) Keep three or four Nazgul on constant patrol around the undominated world. Keep their routes difficult to predict, increasing the feeling of being hunted. This further lowers moral, and may actually occasionally net a kill for the Nazgul.

4) Constantly alter small things about the tactics used to guard the food installations, keeping the number of variebles high and making any given raid as risky as possible. Whenever a wizard is killed, display the body is as gruesomely mutilated way as possible.

5) Offer amnesty and power to any wizards willing to desert Voldermort. Give them control of some castle or other, but keep them under constant watch and observation. If for any reason they seem to be aiding their former comrades, time for some "quality time" with a Nazgul.

6) Start various rumors intended to entrap Voldermort, even if they fail to capture him, they will still demoralize his followers when they do fail to topple Sauron. This sort of spreading of dispair is pretty much right up Sauron's alley, and has the added bonus of possibly actually succeeding. Its a win-win for Sauron.

7) Store food in raw form as much as possible. Keep grain in buildings loose, keep animals unslaughtered as long as possible (Acio works on single objects. Enjoy your single oat). Even if the enemy manages to capture some food, make sure that it requires lots of manual labor to actually use.

8) Keep Sauron at Mt. Doom 24-7. Make known a challenge to single combat between Sauron and Voldermort on nuetral ground. Brush up on counterspelling. Make large and lethal bow, lots of Morgul Arrows or similar.

9) Eventually, practically the entire world will be under Sauron's control, and the remainng Death Eaters who have not defected or been killed will find it difficult to find food, clean water, permenent shelter, and will be getting up there in years, moral will be piss poor, and hope will be dwindling. Offer all survivors amnesty, some minor command, lots of servents and comfy living. Make clear that this is their final chance. This offer stands a good chance of fracturing the group even further, possibly leading to Death Eater killing Death Eater, or Voldermort killing his own (which he has shown a remarkable tendancy to do anyway), further reducing loyalist numbers.

10) Finally, and most importantly, never have troops concentrated enough to make the loss of said troops significant. Rob all enemy victories of importance, while keeping each battle dangerous (if three orcs can threaten a wizard, this is not hard to do, groups of 100 should be a downright terror if they fight smart and don't bunch up).

Between poor food, offers of a life more befitting to a "pure blood" and generally hopeless condition, defections should happen fairly often. Hopelessness and futility, combined with lots of risky fighting against insignificant enemies and lots of difficult manual labor should cause lots of friction and in-fighting among the Death Eaters, further hastening their doom. Since Sauron is camped out at Mt. Doom with Firefly on DVD and a 52 inch plasma screen TV, and Voldemort is unlikely to fight there, victory is essentially impossible, how exactly won't this conflict go on long enough for this strategy to work?

[dehro]

Sadly, important conversations about plot items don't usually happen on the john.

offtopic
In fact they do, in HP...
I can remember at least 2-3 scenes where major things happen in the john....
and by major things I'm not talking of a bout of diarrhea..
/offtopic

[EvilElitest]

I'm sick, and i come back to see that this thread is growing to fast for me. Lets just make a quick look at the forces each side has

Voldemort- Himself, 50-100 death eaters, a big snake, a basalik, Quirrel, a mountain troll, a hundred giants, a few hundred animated corpses, the seven horcuxices, a thousand dementors and one servent who can turn into a rat. Not much. Now all of the none wizard forces will be swarmed to death. the giants can be swayed to Sauron's side, as it has been made clear that they are entirely loyal to voldemort, the dementors are simple loyal to the most evil, and sauron can offer them more, the basalik can be corrupted, nether can naga or quirrel, and a few dozen of the death eaters. The rest of death eaters are potetionally corruptable, along with the mountain troll.

On sauron's side
the nine ringwraiths, complete with fell beasts. Uncorruptable, and obey Sauron's phyic will
The Phantoms of the dead marches, about 100 thousands (numbers of the dead from the last alliance of men and elves, all the orcs men and elves that died their
A few thousand Uruk-hai (he created them before Saruman, and so he would have many more, so lets say thirty thousand)
The Coasairs of Umber, 50 battle ships worth, with a 100 lesser ships, plus flag ship. If the battle ships can hold 300 (sombody who knows more about ships let me know about how much a battle gally ship can hold) and the lesser ships can hold half that, with hte flag ship holding an extra 100. Somebody else do the math
the Wain riders, aka a whole nation of men who serve Sauron. The nation is smaller than Gonder, and less fertile, so lets go with ten thousands dudes
The Men of Rhun, many thousands, unknown numbers
Easterlings, huge nation, enough to launch a massive attack on Minis Tirith, the Lonely Mountain and hte Black gate, so many many many thousands
The Balcoth, another easterling tribe, unknown thousands
the Varaigs, many thousands, but from a small nation
The Haradrim, 18 thousand (three times the Rohan forces) at Pelonor fields, with a few more at the Black gate. Complete with 20 mumikel, with more men on top
the deep haradrim, unknown number, but less than the norther tribes
The Black Nudimorans. They are known to have a small but badass force, so mostlikly a few thousand tops
The men of Morgul, unknown force
The men of morder, most likely a few thousand
he is described of having Half orcs, orc men, goblin men, troll men and half trolls, all of whom dislike light, but don't turn to stone. Unknown number.Orcs of murgol, numbers at the pelanor fields. If we count the movies, 300 thousand, if we don't, 45 thousand.
Orcs of morder, those at the black gate, untold thousands.
Trolls, a few thousand stone, snow, cave, mountain, and hill trolls.
A large force of Olag-hai, a few thousand at least, mentally controlled by Sauron
Orcs of Cith Ungol- A four score uruks, with many more lesser orcs.
Northern orcs of the Misty mountains and mount gudabag, untold thousands
Orcs/trolls of Der Guldor in Mirkwood, many thousands, along with an army of giant spiders and some undead things
The hill men of Agmar, unknow thousands
Goblins of the north, many thousands
Hobgoblins?
A few Hundred barrow wrights
Thousands of wolves
Thousands of Whargs
Morgual wraiths? Lesser wraiths created by morgal blades
Unknown spirt monsters in Minis Morgul
Spirt Wargs (the ones that attack in Fellowship of the ring)
If we count Sauron's forces from the first age, Werewolves and Vampires as well
Himself, the ring
If we count the movie, attack, tower, catapult, morder mountain, rabble and assult trolls as well
Now for other forces who might obey him
The Balrog of Moria, complet with tens of thousands of goblins/orcs, and many cave trolls. Might be already working for him, many of its actions help him greatly in his plans
Saruman, corrupted by Sauron
Ten thousand Uruk-hai, with a few thousand lesser orcs and half orcs, along with a few hundred human servents. Many evil Caruban Crows. A few hundred Warg riders, and wolves
Wormtounge
Himself
and
Gollum

Am I forgetting anyone?
from,
EE

[Ditto]

Revised plan for not being dominated:
1) Make fish from rocks. Eat sushi. Repeat.
2) Don't let Sauron build Mount Doom on the neutral plane of battle.
3) Laugh as 9 Nazgul think they're going to patrol the entire world
4) Don't sit around doing nothing for years while the enemy builds a strong agricultural miltary-industrial complex...

Again, 3 orcs flanking a stationary wizard is a problem for a stationary wizard. And by 'problem', I mean he can't attack. That does not mean 6 orcs > 2 wizards, or any such mathematical equivocation. By this logic, the best plan is to have 100 archers spread out in a large ring and hope the wizard appears in the middle so they can overpower him.

Previous strategies for raiding food camps stand. Fly over the camp with one or another kinds of non-detection going, Vanish appropriate foodstores, leave. (Vanishing, unlike Summoning, is not limited to single objects or even to solid objects.)

I don't know how spread out you see the orc's forces being, but they have to gather in large camps on *some* level, and those camps are just as vulnerable to attack. (Especially in the beginning stages, as they'll all be confined to the non-slagged areas. Or before that, when they're moving around the world in large numbers slagging everything.) Smaller camps will be consumed by the ashing fire even more quickly, actually. Wizards could destroy those agricultural stockpiles, too, leaving the orcs in the area without supplies. (But no worries, they can just eat each other!)

Voldemort has no problem torturing his followers now and again, but he does not wantonly kill them. If a Death Eater defects, they're welcome to take on superior numbers of their peers in combat - supposing Voldemort doesn't off him first.

Dehro, what are you talking about? Things have happened in bathrooms, yes - most notably the girls bathroom on the second floor where they brewed the Polyjuice potion, and the prefect's bathroom where Harry played with Triwizard Clue #2. Neither case involved taking a whizz...

EE, thanks for providing that list again. I'd forgotten that Sauron had wolves.

[EvilElitest]

Revised plan for not being dominated:
1) Make fish from rocks. Eat sushi. Repeat.
2) Don't let Sauron build Mount Doom on the neutral plane of battle.
3) Laugh as 9 Nazgul think they're going to patrol the entire world
4) Don't sit around doing nothing for years while the enemy builds a strong agricultural miltary-industrial complex...

1. Aren't the Death Eaters English? Where would they learn how to make sushi. I know what sushi is and hte basics of it, but i can't make it. And the death eaters can do that right?
2. I think if this is a neutral plane of battle, Sauron gets mount doom atomaticlly because it is needed for the desctruction of the ring.
3. If this is a neutral battle field, then they don't need to patrol the entire world, it is more like a giant field right? I mean, on one side of the field is Voldemort and Crew, on the other side is Sauron and crew. The Nazgul have that crop duster Black Breath and fear effect so...
4. And what are they going to do to stop it, they will have their hands full as it is

Again, 3 orcs flanking a stationary wizard is a problem for a stationary wizard. And by 'problem', I mean he can't attack. That does not mean 6 orcs > 2 wizards, or any such mathematical equivocation. By this logic, the best plan is to have 100 archers spread out in a large ring and hope the wizard appears in the middle so they can overpower him.

No, it means that three orc archers, a very reasonable number, have a pretty good chance (maybe 30 percent) of killing a death eater. Now this is a pretty common situation, so yeah. Also, would the Death Eater always know when to retreat, Beletrix seems more likely to simple attack furerouly

Previous strategies for raiding food camps stand. Fly over the camp with one or another kinds of non-detection going, Vanish appropriate foodstores, leave. (Vanishing, unlike Summoning, is not limited to single objects or even to solid objects.)

1. Sauron and the Nazgul can see through invisiblity
2. Might work once or twice, but remember, every time the wizards cast something with so many monesters running a death eater might just make a mistake and get himself killed. I bring up the archer situation again, the wizard can use hte vanishing while shielding
3. The nazgul would most likely guard the food
4. Ok, lets say that works a few times, here is an idea. Sauron taints the food orc style, aka orcs can eat it, but it is bad for everbody else. Leaves it out in the open, then have the nazgul go chase some wizards for a little while , leaving hte camp temporarilly open to assult

I don't know how spread out you see the orc's forces being, but they have to gather in large camps on *some* level, and those camps are just as vulnerable to attack. (Especially in the beginning stages, as they'll all be confined to the non-slagged areas. Or before that, when they're moving around the world in large numbers slagging everything.) Smaller camps will be consumed by the ashing fire even more quickly, actually. Wizards could destroy those agricultural stockpiles, too, leaving the orcs in the area without supplies. (But no worries, they can just eat each other!)

If neutral battle field=Big field, they can be gathered in one place yes

Voldemort has no problem torturing his followers now and again, but he does not wantonly kill them. If a Death Eater defects, they're welcome to take on superior numbers of their peers in combat - supposing Voldemort doesn't off him first.

The death eaters peers have their hands full keeping Sauron's forces at bay as it is, how can they waste time going after him. And if he works for sauron (and most likely would be protected by a nazgul) then he gets a nice bed, a steady supple of good food, and lots of luxery. He also does'nt get tortured randomlly

EE, thanks for providing that list again. I'd forgotten that Sauron had wolves.

Np. Also, I haven't counted many of the movie monsters, or the monesters from Tolkiens other works (lost tales ect).
from,
EE

[Rutee]

How is the spell's description insufficient? They aren't determined to find a specific place, they're hunting for people, which is certainly different enough to make even the "I can find Hogwarts if I really want to!" idea not work. And Hermione would have mentioned that someone's found their way onto the Hogwarts grounds "because they were really determined!" if it were possible - that's her function as exposition girl. I see no reason to expect that you can ignore a spell "If you really want to." And even granting that (again), he could be determined that the search pattern in this area is complete and/or fruitless, and determinedly move on to the next sector. And how is a grunt orc going to detect an invisible tent? And there are still all the other kinds of defenses.

I find it difficult to believe you're a college grad. I explained in /detail/ why Repello <Person> isn't going to work, based on /HP-verse's own words/. The onus is on you to /prove/ with a citation, that HP's own words are wrong. I'm perfectly fine with a lack of citation in general, because this isn't an academic debate, but we're looking at something that, within its own listed and explained definition, *does not apply*. You tried semantics; that doesn't work. "I want to find X and Location Y is the best place for me to search, therefore, Repello Person isn't going to keep me out of Y".

As to invisibility and other defenses? I don't know. I didn't propose a grunt orc is going to get past them by anything besides sheer luck. What bothers me is when you try to defy the HP-verse's own logic because it's weakening your point that Sauron will lose. Which is a pretty weak point that you can't really support anyway.

1) Make fish from rocks. Eat sushi. Repeat.

You have not demonstrably shown Gant's Law to exempt that.

3) Laugh as 9 Nazgul think they're going to patrol the entire world

An entire world? Who said anything about an entire world? I figured this would be an australia-sized continent, at its greatest, and probably something britain-sized in a more realistic estimate. Neither Harry Potter nor LotR really uses an entire planet, so why would this?

You haven't even demonstrably shown that ANYTHING Voldemort is capable of can effect Sauron. Why don't you start on the single most pressing concern, rather then going "Whoohoo! Voldemort's best minions might actually live through the foot soldiers" Tell me how a Dark Wizard who isn't even among the strongest in antiquity is going to hurt a being that can cancel divine-class magic. What will he use? I literally can not imagine a way for Voldemort to win this, because his only /real/ ace in the hole is absolutely useless. Voldemort's big kicks, as a villain, are brilliant scheming (An effective tool on the whole) and his mastery of magic. His main problem in this is that his arguably more useful 'weapon', his scheming, simply can not get him a big enough metaphorical gun to dent Sauron, and his other ace simply isn't going to work, or isn't going to work nearly at its peak, which is something he'd need as Sauron fought 3 living legends at once, and defeated 2 of them.

[warty goblin]

Vanishing requires line of sight (pretty much all magic in HP does, so I think this is reasonable). Keep the food in underground storage jars with their only access point underground, thus flying overhead is no longer an effective option. Before anybody mentions doing strafing runs on brooms, let me make a few points about how terrible this idea is

1) Spells don't fire at a rate of several thousand shots per second, more like one shot every two or three.

2) Low accuracy. If spells miss a lot at 50 feet when the wizard is not flying, imagine how often they'll miss in the air. A lot as it turns out, remember the chase in book 7? About 90% of the spells didn't hit.

3) Only offers minor protection due to being a difficult target. One shot hit is probably even more dangerous when flying because its likely to knock a wizard off of their broom. Now dispite their ability to survive longer than usual falls, judging from Quidditch, wizards tend to be comatose after doing so, making them easy targets for a quick shanking.

Finally, to address the wizard teleport to a more effective position when confronted by three or more orcs concept, let me ask this: What more effective position? Take three orcs with bows spaced 15 feet apart. I feel I've basically proved at this point that a wizard's effective combat range is no more than a hundred feet, so let's assume that the wizard is that far away from the center orc. As per previous discussion, the wizard is in pretty bad shape in this situtation and so will teleport to a new, presumnably more adventagious, position. Again, the wizard's effective combat range is a hundred feet tops, so let's assume he reappears that distance from one of the edge orcs. At most this puts him a hundred and thirty feet from the farthest orc, who is now outside of the wizard's effective range, but the wizard is still well within the orc's bowshot. What does this really gain?

[lipe44]

I cant believe i finnaly read until the end...


First of ALL i read in this thread, it was supposed to be Voldermort VS Sauron and not Voldemort and minions adaptating to all failures VS Sauron and minions doing nothing.

Another thing, how can we compare a world where magic cannot be counter spelled(HP) with a world that it does? I dont mean that you can use another magic but in LOTR magic can be repelled, controlled or ignored while in HP it can just be attacked with another magic.

About apparatating the only things that prevents Voldemort(Now basically everyone Voldemort has ever contacted with) from lose to Sauron (People that are only 999999999999999999999% of certain serving or helping him).

It isnt instantaneous, take a few seconds to work and when you appear it makes a huge noise, how come no one will notice that?

About Hit and Run:

Even if its 1 in each 1000 that doesnt work, While Voldemort has like 30 Death Eaters, Sauron has Thousands of orcs, humans and the rest.

Where they will run to? Sauron has enough minions to cover ANY land, just put 1 orc every 50 feet, the moment they hear the noise of a wizard appearing they will shot, they might not kill him but they will at least hurt then preventing him from apparatating for a few more seconds than resulting in his death.

Dementors, you say they can only be destroyed by Happy Thoughts but its just speculating as thats the only way THEY know, Sauron may discover another way after battling with them for Days, weeks, months, years, decades, centuries... We know that Sauron is great at developing strategies(if you argue about this then kill yourself) so sooner or later he will know how to kill or at least drive away them.

In LOTR magic its all about will power, you need to KNOW magic to use it and it is bigger depending on your will power but you just need will power to prevent it as long as you see what the guy is doing, i read the seven HP books like 10 times and im sure that Death Eaters and Voldemort sure lack will power.

What will prevent from people changing to Sauron's Side? Voldemort has less control than Sauron on his troops and isnt exactly friendly you know...

Voldemort -I asked for 100 orc bodies for my Inferi, you just brought me 99... But sir... *Crucio*...

Sauron - I asked for information about any his tactics, magic and army, you even brought me another of his followers, here you will have immortalitty now go and kill some people.

I personally i would choose Sauron...

About WK and Voldemort prophecies they are totally different... While WK is about what will happen not about that it must happen, Voldemort's one is more like he did because he was fool but wasnt something like this "The person with the power to defeat the dark lord"(Dont know exactly) and not "The ONLY person with the power to defeat the dark lord".

Not that it makes difference, it shouldnt be counted here but just wants to talk about a little of everything i saw in the thread...

Dont get me wrong i really like HP but you can compare somethings.

Sorry for not citing sources but im not English native speaker and my book isnt on English.

Ditto you sure did a good job but dont forget it isnt about what YOU would do but about what HE(the character would do). I congratulate you on making this discussion when i thought it would be impossible to Voldemort stand a chance but Voldemort may be enough to worry Sauron but that just makes worse for him, if Sauron gets worried he wont live to see another day.

EDIT: Almost forgot about food, you cannot create it with HP magic its against one of the 5(not sure here) laws of something... And from what i understand you cant duplicate existing food.

EDIT2: I problaby should read before saving... not after...

About Horcruxes, it only prevents him from dying in non-natural ways of dying in general? I always thought if he died from natural ways he would be perm dead or at least that part of the soul would be lost.

[Rowanomicon]

Quick points:

1) Orcs have a good sense of smell. That's how they find invisible stuff.

2) Voldy & co. don't get the luxury of magic when Sauron is anywhere near ad it is shown that he can dispel magic much stronger than theirs. before you go screaming about different types of magic in the different books remember that we have to assume some overlap between universes or else we end up with "The books don't mention anything about magic from the other books therefore it's ineffective."

[lipe44]

Quick points:

1) Orcs have a good sense of smell. That's how they find invisible stuff.

They also can see very well at the night and can hear better than humans(not sure about this).

2) Voldy & co. don't get the luxury of magic when Sauron is anywhere near ad it is shown that he can dispel magic much stronger than theirs. before you go screaming about different types of magic in the different books remember that we have to assume some overlap between universes or else we end up with "The books don't mention anything about magic from the other books therefore it's ineffective."

Debatable but anything they use against Sauron he can counter and will leave them open to the rest of his army.

[Ditto]

Obviously if there's no Mount Doom, then there's no Ring. The Ring isn't currently with Sauron, so it would have to be found somewhere on Middle Earth, which is not where the battle is. Likewise, Sauron can't find Voldemort's horcruxes. Both aren't important, due to the one-death-is-enough thing. S'all given under the neutral battlefield set-up. And no, that does not mean one field, it's just a neutral 'place'. Could be Middle Earth, could be Britain, but it shouldn't make a difference.

The Nazgul will guard the food? ALL of it? And I thought they were patrolling the entire world...
3 orc archers = 30% chance of success. That's some more of that lovely math that came up with 500,000 orcs at Pelennor, EE...

The Nazgul and Sauron can *not* see through invisibility. They can see through illusions, which is totally separate fare. Deceiving Sauron's gaze is one thing, but outright blocking it is possible - someone cited the hobbits' cloaks as hiding the bearers from unfriendly eyes. And Sauron still has to know where to look!

I apologize, Rutee; I really thought that your point and the spell's the description were rather straightforward and done with. No need for namecalling. I'll try again - I'm not clear on what exactly you're pointing to as the trouble in the spell's definition that's self-defeating.
From the Lexicon (Repello root spell):

Spell that keeps something away from the caster or from a target object that the spell is cast upon.

That's as simple as it gets - keeps something away from the caster.
From Wikipedia (Repello Muggletum specifically):

Description: Keeps Muggles away from wizarding places by causing them to remember important meetings they missed and to cause the Muggles in question to forget what they were doing.

'It keeps them away from a place by making them think of somewhere they really must be...' like back at base camp? Or checking out the cave on the next hill, because surely no one could be hiding in *this* cave. Maybe the orc doesn't even remember whether it checked this cave just now, since it causes them 'to forget what they were doing'. Is that specific enough? Please let me know if I've missed the language in question from before.

As far as Gant's Law goes, I think that logic is pretty straightforward, too. I'll do it again, for kicks: Wizards != Make food. Wizards = Make animals. Make food != Make animals. Transfiguration is an instantaneous effect, so what was a rock is now a fish, period. Fish can be fricassed and eaten. What is the issue with language here?

I've worked on the one-on-one fight with Sauron, but people keep switching the focus here from fighting the army to waging a hunger war to single combat and back again. I'm just responding to what's there. ::shrug:: Back to Sauron, then.
- Avada Kedavra. If you want a quote, the Lexicon.

Causes instant death in a flash of green light, usually leaving no sign of physical damage or of the cause of death that would be detectable to a Muggle autopsy.
One of the Unforgivable Curses, said to be unblockable and with no counter-curse.

There is no known case of Sauron being hit by a death effect, so we cannot say that he is immune to death effects outright. Sauron's fighting off divine-class magic was a physical assault - by giant magic air bird creatures, but a physical assault. Magic in Harry Potter is of an entirely different breed than divine good/evil magic in LOTR, so countering one does not outright grant countering the other. (Sidebar for Rowan below!) Either way, AK is not subject to counterspelling. Sauron can be killed - it might take a Ring being destroyed or his hand being cut off or a tower falling on him, but he can cease to exist. Besides the fact that this is terrifically easy, why wouldn't this work?
- Dropping a tower on him. That worked once, right?
- Throwing a tower at him. Or trees, or boulders, whatever. Even if Sauron could disenchant them, it wouldn't matter - the magic is what threw them, but simple momentum will keep them on target.
- Stabbing him with a swarm of objects instructed to stab hard and often. He has a physical body, and it can be shish-kebab'd. Let's go right for the face - stabbing in the face is always a great start.

(Rowan's sidebar on counterspelling!)

Spoiler

Show

Hell, why not make one item in this thread spoilered to shorten the post, eh?

You're right, we absolutely have to assume certain parallels between the kinds of magic. I don't think I've contended that "These systems are different, oh well, OACA" at any point; that would have made this whole thread OACA, the end. There are some elements of HP magic that depend on the willpower of the wizard - Legillimency and Occlumency for example - which can very readily be matched against other LOTR things. Transfiguration, however, does not depend on willpower. You cannot dispel a transfigured object. You can transfigure it again, if you'd like, but that's not dispeling it. It's also harder to judge the precise effect of counterspelling on things like charmed objects, because the counterspelling in LOTR is more of the "I see you're doing something, and I stop you from doing it with my willpower!", and not "I disenchant this item/door/effect you've previously enchanted!" How does a dispel work against an object? It's always a battle of two wills happening in real time LOTR, and that's not how it happens in HP. I don't want to tag magic with OACA, but if LOTR magic is defined simply as "The caster wills X to cease to be", then it's all very silly. There are some structures that have to be established for how this vaunted Sauron counterspell ability works.

Putting food underground is a great idea. Vanishing by broomstick is a sound move for the rest, though, since it's not a bolt spell (like most combat spells), you sort of 'sweep' the target up. It's also hitting a stationary target of one sort or another. The broomsticks are not for dodging purposes (which they're quite useful for, but still run a very real risk of being arrowed if they aren't defending), but to avoid the ground forces when sneaking over to yoink the food. I stipulated that the flying wizard would be under an Invisibility Cloak, a Bedazzlement hex, a Disilluionment charm, or any of several ways that make them hard to see.

Orcs can certainly smell well and see very good at night, but it's not always night (Sauron cannot make the entire world dark all of the time - and even if he wanted to, it would be a lot of fun throwing a giant Luma Solarem in the middle of the camp. Blinding the orcs for a few seconds would solve problems, now, wouldn't it?) and it's hard to smell things rather higher up than you are, especially catching that scent quickly (by the time they leave), and then attempting to shoot an arrow at it.

When you move away from the center of an orc party, you have plenty of time to get a shot off and leave before anyone tracks and fires. A 100+ft. radius is a plenty large area to try and keep covered at a moment's notice. It's like playing paintball in a big open field, with targets placed all around the perimeter. If a target is live for only a second, it's not easy to find and hit even with projectiles faster than arrows.

[gooddragon1]

Definitely Sauron, he's a demi-god and Voldemort's mortal.

[lipe44]

Obviously if there's no Mount Doom, then there's no Ring. The Ring isn't currently with Sauron, so it would have to be found somewhere on Middle Earth, which is not where the battle is. Likewise, Sauron can't find Voldemort's horcruxes. Both aren't important, due to the one-death-is-enough thing. S'all given under the neutral battlefield set-up. And no, that does not mean one field, it's just a neutral 'place'. Could be Middle Earth, could be Britain, but it shouldn't make a difference.

Please dont start that again, if someone say just ignore, i got tired of people saying its on Middle-Earth, no its on a vast camp, no its on nothing at all...

The Nazgul will guard the food? ALL of it? And I thought they were patrolling the entire world...

Why bother with food? Just burry where Sauron stays, good luck taking it...

3 orc archers = 30% chance of success. That's some more of that lovely math that came up with 500,000 orcs at Pelennor, EE...

I read the HP books several times and im sure that after apparatating it takes a few seconds to you realize everything around you, the orks will hear the noise and if you had instructed them to keep prepared to shot while patrolling they will have shot arrows which you will have very few time to react, i would say 70% of chance to one arrow goes to the right place, sometimes wizard will see and block so around 40% of the time one arrow will hit, that will distract the wizard allowing him to get hit more times.

The Nazgul and Sauron can *not* see through invisibility. They can see through illusions, which is totally separate fare. Deceiving Sauron's gaze is one thing, but outright blocking it is possible - someone cited the hobbits' cloaks as hiding the bearers from unfriendly eyes. And Sauron still has to know where to look!

They can smell things and their vision of the world is not about light but about a shadow that ANY living being has, it can only be destroyed by midday light.

As far as Gant's Law goes, I think that logic is pretty straightforward, too. I'll do it again, for kicks: Wizards != Make food. Wizards = Make animals. Make food != Make animals. Transfiguration is an instantaneous effect, so what was a rock is now a fish, period. Fish can be fricassed and eaten. What is the issue with language here?

You know thats a good point but just... you know... stupid... You are techinally creating food without creating food... Loopholes are always stupid...

I've worked on the one-on-one fight with Sauron, but people keep switching the focus here from fighting the army to waging a hunger war to single combat and back again. I'm just responding to what's there. ::shrug:: Back to Sauron, then.
- Avada Kedavra. If you want a quote, the Lexicon.

I saw but if i dont say it still not being Voldemort vs Sauron...

[QUOTE]There is no known case of Sauron being hit by a death effect, so we cannot say that he is immune to death effects outright. Sauron's fighting off divine-class magic was a physical assault - by giant magic air bird creatures, but a physical assault. Magic in Harry Potter is of an entirely different breed than divine good/evil magic in LOTR, so countering one does not outright grant countering the other.[QUOTE]

You know he could just dodge it or attacking Voldemort preventing him from attacking him.

(Sidebar for Rowan below!) Either way, AK is not subject to counterspelling. Sauron can be killed - it might take a Ring being destroyed or his hand being cut off or a tower falling on him, but he can cease to exist. Besides the fact that this is terrifically easy, why wouldn't this work?
- Dropping a tower on him. That worked once, right?
- Throwing a tower at him. Or trees, or boulders, whatever. Even if Sauron could disenchant them, it wouldn't matter - the magic is what threw them, but simple momentum will keep them on target.
- Stabbing him with a swarm of objects instructed to stab hard and often. He has a physical body, and it can be shish-kebab'd. Let's go right for the face - stabbing in the face is always a great start.

He cannot cease to exist because he is a Maiar (before you argue about Gandalf and Saruman they are in human form), you know if Sauron hadnt created the Ring he would be invencible... All his power without weakness...

(Rowan's sidebar on counterspelling!)

Spoiler

Show

Hell, why not make one item in this thread spoilered to shorten the post, eh?

You're right, we absolutely have to assume certain parallels between the kinds of magic. I don't think I've contended that "These systems are different, oh well, OACA" at any point; that would have made this whole thread OACA, the end. There are some elements of HP magic that depend on the willpower of the wizard - Legillimency and Occlumency for example - which can very readily be matched against other LOTR things. Transfiguration, however, does not depend on willpower. You cannot dispel a transfigured object. You can transfigure it again, if you'd like, but that's not dispeling it. It's also harder to judge the precise effect of counterspelling on things like charmed objects, because the counterspelling in LOTR is more of the "I see you're doing something, and I stop you from doing it with my willpower!", and not "I disenchant this item/door/effect you've previously enchanted!" How does a dispel work against an object? It's always a battle of two wills happening in real time LOTR, and that's not how it happens in HP. I don't want to tag magic with OACA, but if LOTR magic is defined simply as "The caster wills X to cease to be", then it's all very silly. There are some structures that have to be established for how this vaunted Sauron counterspell ability works.

At LOTR you can prevent anything that is happening with will power and ANY person can prevents your preventing(that really sounds weird...).

Orcs can certainly smell well and see very good at night, but it's not always night (Sauron cannot make the entire world dark all of the time - and even if he wanted to, it would be a lot of fun throwing a giant Luma Solarem in the middle of the camp. Blinding the orcs for a few seconds would solve problems, now, wouldn't it?) and it's hard to smell things rather higher up than you are, especially catching that scent quickly (by the time they leave), and then attempting to shoot an arrow at it.

Just keep the parts where the orcs are in darkness...

When you move away from the center of an orc party, you have plenty of time to get a shot off and leave before anyone tracks and fires. A 100+ft. radius is a plenty large area to try and keep covered at a moment's notice. It's like playing paintball in a big open field, with targets placed all around the perimeter. If a target is live for only a second, it's not easy to find and hit even with projectiles faster than arrows.

The density is the problem, Im targetting Guy A but Guy B may appear 1000 feet behind Guy A, so I actually treatened 2 people with 1 one arrow...


Ditto i know your evil plan of keeping us here discuissing forever just because you are bored, it wont work we are free to leave... (are we?)

[lipe44]

Definitely Sauron, he's a demi-god and Voldemort's mortal.

Demi-God is a different thing from what Sauron is...

Demi-God you can become while Maiar(What Sauron is) you cant become.

[warty goblin]

Again, Avade Kedavera cannot work on Sauron for the simple reason that Sauron cannot be killed. Think of a stone, you can't kill a stone, the term is meaningless when talking about a stone, it simply does not apply. Sauron is the same way, he's been around since the creation of the universe and will exist in some form until its end. We know that AK is not 100% effective, there are things that can stop it from killing the target, such as love shields,a horcrux, or the target being completely deathless. Put logically, AK goes something like (if target is killable) -> (kill target). Since Sauron is not killable, it does nothing at all.

Now you can strip Sauron of his power, through the application of vast amounts of physical trauma caused by the collapse of an entire continent or three of the greatest heroes ever to live armed with two of the most magical weapons ever forged, but he cannot be completely killed. Destroying the Ring would strip him of pretty much all of his power, but he would still be around.

[The_Snark]

Obviously if there's no Mount Doom, then there's no Ring. The Ring isn't currently with Sauron, so it would have to be found somewhere on Middle Earth, which is not where the battle is. Likewise, Sauron can't find Voldemort's horcruxes. Both aren't important, due to the one-death-is-enough thing. S'all given under the neutral battlefield set-up. And no, that does not mean one field, it's just a neutral 'place'. Could be Middle Earth, could be Britain, but it shouldn't make a difference.

Did we address why Sauron is not allowed to use the stronghold he built through the use of his personal power? Voldemort never bothered, because he was fighting a guerilla war. Saying that Sauron is not allowed to use his fortresses is giving Voldemort an advantage.

The Nazgul and Sauron can *not* see through invisibility. They can see through illusions, which is totally separate fare. Deceiving Sauron's gaze is one thing, but outright blocking it is possible - someone cited the hobbits' cloaks as hiding the bearers from unfriendly eyes. And Sauron still has to know where to look!

The Nazgul don't see the same way people do. Hiding from them is possible, especially in daylight, but it's much harder in the night, and magic designed to obscure human senses wouldn't work very well.

Someone cited the cloaks as hiding the bearers from unfriendly eyes, but not magical ones. The cloaks are one of Tolkien's possibly-subtle-magic, possibly-just-well-crafted items.

How is invisibility all that different from illusions, now? They both obscure the senses in some way, and Sauron has a demonstrated ability to see through magical illusions.

I apologize, Rutee; I really thought that your point and the spell's the description were rather straightforward and done with. No need for namecalling. I'll try again - I'm not clear on what exactly you're pointing to as the trouble in the spell's definition that's self-defeating.
From the Lexicon (Repello root spell):

That's as simple as it gets - keeps something away from the caster.
From Wikipedia (Repello Muggletum specifically):

'It keeps them away from a place by making them think of somewhere they really must be...' like back at base camp? Or checking out the cave on the next hill, because surely no one could be hiding in *this* cave. Maybe the orc doesn't even remember whether it checked this cave just now, since it causes them 'to forget what they were doing'. Is that specific enough? Please let me know if I've missed the language in question from before.

It's never been used against anybody who was actually looking for the wizards, to my knowledge. It's used to keep people from simply wandering in. Not that they can't ward their camp—Book 7 provides examples of how they might do that—but that's a pretty flawed spell.

As far as Gant's Law goes, I think that logic is pretty straightforward, too. I'll do it again, for kicks: Wizards != Make food. Wizards = Make animals. Make food != Make animals. Transfiguration is an instantaneous effect, so what was a rock is now a fish, period. Fish can be fricassed and eaten. What is the issue with language here?

Can they make animals? Citation? We know they can take animals and food into extradimensional spaces, but I don't think they can create them out of nothing, because creating an animal is, well, creating food. It should be harder than creating food, really.

I've worked on the one-on-one fight with Sauron, but people keep switching the focus here from fighting the army to waging a hunger war to single combat and back again. I'm just responding to what's there. ::shrug:: Back to Sauron, then.
- Avada Kedavra. If you want a quote, the Lexicon.

There is no known case of Sauron being hit by a death effect, so we cannot say that he is immune to death effects outright. Sauron's fighting off divine-class magic was a physical assault - by giant magic air bird creatures, but a physical assault. Magic in Harry Potter is of an entirely different breed than divine good/evil magic in LOTR, so countering one does not outright grant countering the other. (Sidebar for Rowan below!) Either way, AK is not subject to counterspelling. Sauron can be killed - it might take a Ring being destroyed or his hand being cut off or a tower falling on him, but he can cease to exist. Besides the fact that this is terrifically easy, why wouldn't this work?
- Dropping a tower on him. That worked once, right?
- Throwing a tower at him. Or trees, or boulders, whatever. Even if Sauron could disenchant them, it wouldn't matter - the magic is what threw them, but simple momentum will keep them on target.
- Stabbing him with a swarm of objects instructed to stab hard and often. He has a physical body, and it can be shish-kebab'd. Let's go right for the face - stabbing in the face is always a great start.

Firstly, Avada Kedavra is clearly not unblockable, because it fails no less than three times in the book. Foiled a different way each time, actually... and it's dodged numerous times. in practically every fight involving Voldemort, actually. Either it's simply not that accurate, or Voldemort is a terrible shot. Secondly, you really don't want to get into using the exact words of each book, because I'm pretty certain that there are lines about no mortal (or any of the immortals still on Middle-Earth) being able to confront Sauron directly, unless he were to use the Ring against him, and... blah.

Thirdly:

Dropping a tower/tree on him? What? Since when can wizards lift towers with their wands? When does anyone employ a simple spell to levitate a large object? It seems to me there's a pretty sharp weight limit on that.

And finally, you've given no answer to how Voldemort avoids Sauron's mental and physical retaliation.

(Rowan's sidebar on counterspelling!)

Spoiler

Show

Hell, why not make one item in this thread spoilered to shorten the post, eh?

You're right, we absolutely have to assume certain parallels between the kinds of magic. I don't think I've contended that "These systems are different, oh well, OACA" at any point; that would have made this whole thread OACA, the end. There are some elements of HP magic that depend on the willpower of the wizard - Legillimency and Occlumency for example - which can very readily be matched against other LOTR things. Transfiguration, however, does not depend on willpower. You cannot dispel a transfigured object. You can transfigure it again, if you'd like, but that's not dispeling it. It's also harder to judge the precise effect of counterspelling on things like charmed objects, because the counterspelling in LOTR is more of the "I see you're doing something, and I stop you from doing it with my willpower!", and not "I disenchant this item/door/effect you've previously enchanted!" How does a dispel work against an object? It's always a battle of two wills happening in real time LOTR, and that's not how it happens in HP. I don't want to tag magic with OACA, but if LOTR magic is defined simply as "The caster wills X to cease to be", then it's all very silly. There are some structures that have to be established for how this vaunted Sauron counterspell ability works.

Response spoiler'd, just because I can.

Spoiler

Show

Counterspelling on an object is more or less automatically successful if there isn't someone reinforcing the spell with their will, so far as we've seen it. Take the Moria example again; the Balrog's counterspell would have undone Gandalf's shutting-spell, if he hadn't reinforced it with another, extremely powerful spell. Actual magic items aren't dispellable this way, it's safe to assume, but standard spells are.