New OOTS products from CafePress
New OOTS t-shirts, ornaments, mugs, bags, and more
Page 30 of 43 FirstFirst ... 5202122232425262728293031323334353637383940 ... LastLast
Results 871 to 900 of 1273
  1. - Top - End - #871
    Bugbear in the Playground
    Join Date
    Aug 2007

    Default Re: Sauron vs Voldemort

    Never said V. got the british army, just that they sided against Sauron first. As I stated before V. is not the brains.

  2. - Top - End - #872
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    Ditto's Avatar

    Join Date
    Dec 2005

    Default Re: Sauron vs Voldemort

    AK does not kill things that are alive – AK kills things that can be killed. It doesn’t say “Stops things from living”, it says “Kills.” And Sauron can be killed, just like Gandalf… and Gandalf most definitely died, and was resurrected. If Sauron is so effective floating freely, why would he ever take on a body? It certainly wasn’t relevant during the trilogy, since there are only passing references to corporeality. Of course a footsoldier could not kill a god with his sword, but if he has a button that said “KILL”, then sure! AK doesn’t care how powerful you are, wizard or muggle or goblin, it just says, “Dead now.”

    anyway, on one side you have a magician, a good one, with several spells. on the other side you have a demi-god who by constitution and definition is impervious to all of the magic that could be thrown at him by the HP universe
    There is no such thing as being impervious to magic in the HP universe, so I don’t know how something could ‘obviously’ by immune. He’s highly resistant to most everything in LOTR, for reasons that have nothing to do with the reasons he’d (allegedly) be immune to HP stuff.
    Transparency between magic systems as you describe it is in Sauron’s favor, of course, since you’re assuming that LOTR’s “Can counterspell/ignore everything” trumps HP’s “No such thing as counterspelling”. That’s a huge mechanic to toss into ‘transparency’. Since there is a certain set of effects based on force of will, I would argue that Sauron kicks major butt when it comes to those areas (darn, I guess Voldemort can’t Imperio him… I was really counting on that! ), but beyond those few cases that willpower has no effect on spells whatsoever. I’d call letting willpower affect spells where it already affects spells transparency…

    I have not at any point implied that Sauron stands around and does nothing. Y’all are free to propose whatever maneuvers you’d like for Sauron. We’re definitely much established that melee is right out, and we’ve no evidence that he’s a ranged fighter (highly unlikely, IMO). He’s likewise welcome to do some sort of spellcasting, I guess, but his abilities in that regard aren’t really defined at all. Most of the time he’s depicted countering other magical will magic to shut them down.

    Lava is down. But the slabs of rock shearing off on top of him on the way down are pretty handy, too.

    Voldemort does not have the patience for a long war? It’s all he can do to survive in his own domain? You’re saying this of a wizard whose name causes an entire country to cringe and remained at large for the better part of 30 years… why? Also, ‘small groups of orcs’ is a silly statement.

    Surprise! Magic has loopholes in any system. This especially depends on if you read the rules to say more than they actually do. An issue with the rock-goat-food thing, you say? You cannot create information, either. Does that mean when you turn a rock into pen and paper, you can’t write anything down on it? You cannot create love. When you craft a trinket with your wand, does that mean it cannot solicit any amorous effect from your crush? The exceptions to Gant’s Law refer quite directly and specifically to the things they proscribe, only. Don’t assume an umbrella effect where there is none stated. Also, these are the *exceptions* to Gant’s Law. Anything not stated in an exception to a law would default to being covered by the law. As far as Fiendfyre goes, Sauron cannot control a thing by looking at it. Still.
    Everyone in the Order is scared crapless at the notion of facing Voldemort in single combat, though they never expect that to happen. Dumbledore is the only one okay with taking him on.

    Fiendfyre looks like fire, so Fienddysyntegrate wouldn’t be a very helpful name, would it? It’s still terrifically hot probably scorches the columns and floors and other things it cannot readily consume; I’ll have to reread the passage. Dolohov’s flame strike in the battle of the Department of Mysteries knocks Hermione out for two chapters, but she is not burned. A disillusionment charm does not disillusion someone. An object cannot be imperturbable. The Jelly-Brain/Fingers/Legs jinxes to not literally turn one’s (things) to jelly. There are examples of semi-accurate spell names all over the series, and a spell name does not limit its effects.

    I know people keep saying I’m imprinting Ditto-as-Voldemort ideas, but I don’t think I’m doing that any more than Others-as-Sauron. And I don’t think that’s too much, at that. As far as tactics, I’ve cited examples that show the tactics I’ve proposed are either common sense or used in HP battles. (I don’t know why people don’t like “Apparate at all times!”, since Dumbledore and Voldemort did that in the only serious battle in the entire series where apparition was an option…) I’ve also never claimed HP power is UBER AND ULTIMATE, but rather have provided specific examples of spells and effects that would either negate a specific advantage or devastate opponents.

    And in briefly to Mutilis:
    -LOTR magic and Jedi mind tricks depend on the mind of the target. HP magic does not.
    -No magic works on Mount Doom because Sauron set it up that way, not because Sauron exudes an AMF.
    -Voldemort can disarm people easily, too. Woot.
    -Voldemort’s forces are superior in every way to 99.9% of Sauron’s forces. Numbers alone =/= win.
    -The forces outside of Death Eaters & co. and Sauron’s army don’t count.
    -Aragorn is, indeed, a very lucky stoner. Well said!
    -Tom Bombadil always wins. He just doesn’t always care.
    Quote Originally Posted by zyphyr View Post
    They don't actually love Gold, they only say that to get it into bed.
    John Dies At The End
    Sauron vs. Voldemort

  3. - Top - End - #873
    Bugbear in the Playground
    Join Date
    Aug 2007

    Default Re: Sauron vs Voldemort

    "There is no such thing as being impervious to magic in the HP universe"

    So therefore AK destroys dementors, right?

    Ok, I'll tell you a little secret. Magic fades, it was stronger in the past than it is now, only if it was trapped in a Great Ring could the fading be delayed. And the Great Rings are hidden from HP wizards.

    Back in the days of middle earth, dementors and other wraiths weren't such a big problem because they were easy to kill with magic swords, songs, and spells. They had to hide behind big armies or in barrows.

    However wimpy HP magic can't really hurt them, because HP magic has lost many secrets.

    If you don't believe me ask one of the remaining elves hiding out at trekie conventions (they pretend to be vulcans).
    Last edited by multilis; 2007-11-08 at 12:00 PM.

  4. - Top - End - #874
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    Ditto's Avatar

    Join Date
    Dec 2005

    Default Re: Sauron vs Voldemort

    Y'know, I never bought the whole "Spock is just a half-human" thing... this explains a lot...

    Certain creatures are immune to certain things; my statement was perhaps imprecise. There is no such thing as INHERENTLY, COMPLETELY immune to ALL magic in HP.

    I'm not sure what you mean about magic fading insofar as the Potterverse is concerned, and that "many secrets have been lost". In HP, magic is a dynamic force available to everyone. There is constant innovation and experimentation and discovery. Very rarely do you hear someone say, "That is an Olde Magike, lost to the ages of history." - unlike in LOTR, where everyone knows that magic is extremely rare and only usable if you're magically awesome. (Which, unfortunately, you are not. Sorry, readers at home out there in Middle Earth!)
    Quote Originally Posted by zyphyr View Post
    They don't actually love Gold, they only say that to get it into bed.
    John Dies At The End
    Sauron vs. Voldemort

  5. - Top - End - #875
    Barbarian in the Playground
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Location

    Default Re: Sauron vs Voldemort

    There is no such thing as being impervious to magic in the HP universe, so I don’t know how something could ‘obviously’ by immune. He’s highly resistant to most everything in LOTR, for reasons that have nothing to do with the reasons he’d (allegedly) be immune to HP stuff.
    Transparency between magic systems as you describe it is in Sauron’s favor, of course, since you’re assuming that LOTR’s “Can counterspell/ignore everything” trumps HP’s “No such thing as counterspelling”. That’s a huge mechanic to toss into ‘transparency’. Since there is a certain set of effects based on force of will, I would argue that Sauron kicks major butt when it comes to those areas (darn, I guess Voldemort can’t Imperio him… I was really counting on that! ), but beyond those few cases that willpower has no effect on spells whatsoever. I’d call letting willpower affect spells where it already affects spells transparency…


    Ditto, your writing yes?

    Magic in HP verse cannot be stopped or countered in any way yes?

    Shock, horror, I guess we have all been reading some facfic then since that would mean Voldy would have KILLED Harry Potter when he was a little kid and he would have won the whole thing.

    I am sure that Harry Potter books written by a certain lady are great fan-fiction then, can you please direct me to the originals please?

    And as for the bit about having Sauron stand around and do nothing...

    How fast does magic work in HP universe?

    Instantly, regardless of distance or effect that they require yes?

    So, yes, Sauron could not have reacted in any way because your tunneling to the depth of the earth where you have lava flows is instantaneously (don't forget the great and abiding respect that Voldemort has for the mugglers sciences, like where you find lava flows, how the actual physical make-up of our world is made means he would find a lava tunnel unerringly through the use of magic, which incidently is proven in the books to work perfectly, but just not in Miss R fan-fictions, and fast enough that that Sauron would be caught completely off-guard).

    Of course Voldemort throughout the REAL books is a grand strategist and tactician with the ability to instantly see any weaknesses from people he sees once.

  6. - Top - End - #876
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    Rowanomicon's Avatar

    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Location
    BC, Canada
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Sauron vs Voldemort

    Ditto before you say something I'm sure you'll say ("AK got blocked by love, that's different and Sauron doesn't get it") I'll say this:

    We know:
    1) HP magic has been blocked
    therefore it can be blocked

    2) Love is one of the things that can block it

    This does not mean that love is the only thing tat can block it.

    Also your argument about semi-accurate spell naming is rather weak. Yes the jelly spells make your legs/whatever like jelly, but not actually real jelly. So fiendfyre has the effects of fire but isn't actually real fire? Fair enough as real fire doesn't form into animals and chase you. However, it still burns you. "Turning things to soot and ash" is better known, to most of us anyway, as "burning." I'm perfectly OK with ff doing it 100 times faster. 100 times faster than 0 is still 0 as burning does not effect Sauron. Please, just accept it. Fiendfyre can still be used on orcs.

    Oh that reminds me, orcs are physically stronger than Death Eaters and probably faster runners as well as more experienced warriors. That's the weakest of Sauron's forced and just off the top of my head so Voldy's forces are not better in every way than Sauron's forces.
    Quote Originally Posted by EvilElitest View Post
    You are a god
    Many thanks to Bisected8 for the Jokertar.

  7. - Top - End - #877
    Banned
     
    Rutee's Avatar

    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Gender
    Female

    Default Re: Sauron vs Voldemort

    I should ask Banpresto to take Ditto's logic. God damn the Nadesico and it's stupid robots*! Little bastards get shields that block beam weapons! But there were no such shields in most of the shows' original worlds, so OBVIOUSLY the Nadesico shields should only work on Jovians, rather then everyone's enemies, despite being demonstrably shown in the show to block beam weaponry!

    Hell, why not take it a step farther? Obviously nothing works outside its original world. I should ask them to just quit with the huge crossovers and make big compilations of like, 6 different games that have each series seperate. Everyone knows that crossover fights never work, because there's nothing in their canon about being able to damage each other.

    And hey, for that matter, someone should tell Nintendo that Super Smash Bros. isn't realistic for the same reason :|



    *I actually love Nadesico, just trying to make a point.
    Last edited by Rutee; 2007-11-08 at 03:33 PM.

  8. - Top - End - #878
    Titan in the Playground
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Location
    Tail of the Bellcurve
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Sauron vs Voldemort

    No counterspelling in HP? Fine, call it blocking (which HP has out the gills) and Sauron's golden. I was using counterspell to describe what he does at Numeneor, but blocking may in fact be more accurate anyway. Semantics don't interest me here, what interests me are abilities and we know that Sauron is very good at defeating magic. Voldemort uses magic, Sauron defeats magic. Its really that simple.

    And I just reread the section of Two Towers where Gandalf describes his battle with the Balrog. Nowhere did I see a reference to this death and resurection of which you speak. He was very weakened yes, but that's a long way from death though. He does not even say "I was sent back" or anything like that. The closest he gets is "I felt life in me again", but that's still different from dying and could mean any number of things besides "I was dead". Of course he is also described as being transparent at this point, until he is healed in Lothlorien, but that's still not killed, dead or died, just unusally unrefractive.
    Now if fighting a flaming demon nearly as old as the world on the top of a freezing mountain above the clouds in a battle that caused thunder, lightening and fire visable "from afar", after falling to the uttermost foundations of stone, then climbing back up, fighting all the way, doesn't kill a spirit forced to wear the body of an old man, I don't see how AK can effect a being of vastly greater power such as Sauron.

    At this point I rest my case, spirits such as the Maiar cannot die or be killed. AK kills stuff that can be killed, if not it doesn't work. Sauron is a Maiar, hence he cannot be killed or die so AK does not work on him.

    And nowhere have I claimed that Sauron is immune to all magic, or is a walking AMF, merely that he is immune to certain spells based on what he is and is freakishly good at blocking magic, hence using magic against him is a strategy doomed to failure.

    Conclusion: Sauron can defeat magic makes Hydrogen bombs look cute bunny rabbits with mild indigestion through some means, the exact details of which should be irrelevant. Sauron is uneffected by things that kill their target, since he cannot be killed. Voldemort is entirely dependant on magic, which Sauron can shut down. Hence Sauron wins.

  9. - Top - End - #879
    Ettin in the Playground
     
    dehro's Avatar

    Join Date
    May 2007
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Sauron vs Voldemort

    Quote Originally Posted by Ditto View Post
    AK does not kill things that are alive – AK kills things that can be killed. It doesn’t say “Stops things from living”, it says “Kills.” And Sauron can be killed, just like Gandalf… and Gandalf most definitely died, and was resurrected.
    If Sauron is so effective floating freely, why would he ever take on a body? It certainly wasn’t relevant during the trilogy, since there are only passing references to corporeality.
    As I said, Gandalf was hugely harmstrung when he took a human body. most of his powers were taken away from him before getting into middle earth. I accept however that he indeed died. As I said, it was semantics..
    but you seem unable to grasp the point that Sauron had NOT been given any limit..he HAD NO NEED for a human body. as with all the Maiar and Valar, the reasons for taking a "comprehensible" form was purely esthetical, for the love of the beauty that maiar and valar saw in the creation of Iluvatar. this love was tainted by greed, desire for possession and command in Melkor's case and that of his followers, but is still what is at the root of it. Initially the Valar took human(oid) form not to frighten the children of Iluvatar and for no other reason. Gandalf himself was known, before being sent on "the mission", for roaming amongst the elves invisible even to them or, in some occasions, with the look of an elf himself.
    Sauron does the same but has lost with his first defeat the power of transformation. therefore he has to "grow/fabricate" a body if he wants to..he can not transform from invisible-untouchable into visible(in whatever form)...why he does so? because he fancies it..he wants to be a ruler amongst the children of Iluvatar and it is only natural that he does so in a "real" body. but he does not need it. in this he is vastly superior to Gandalf, who needed to be seen and recognised as a wizard and as a wizard solely.. superior to the point that he must be considered of a different "class" entirely

    Quote Originally Posted by Ditto View Post
    There is no such thing as being impervious to magic in the HP universe, so I don’t know how something could ‘obviously’ by immune. He’s highly resistant to most everything in LOTR, for reasons that have nothing to do with the reasons he’d (allegedly) be immune to HP stuff.
    Transparency between magic systems as you describe it is in Sauron’s favor, of course, since you’re assuming that LOTR’s “Can counterspell/ignore everything” trumps HP’s “No such thing as counterspelling”. That’s a huge mechanic to toss into ‘transparency’. Since there is a certain set of effects based on force of will, I would argue that Sauron kicks major butt when it comes to those areas (darn, I guess Voldemort can’t Imperio him… I was really counting on that! ), but beyond those few cases that willpower has no effect on spells whatsoever. I’d call letting willpower affect spells where it already affects spells transparency…
    would you care to explain where the overlapping is then? if Voldy can use all of the HP magic to the maximum extent, why would you not allow Sauron to do the same, specially when the two things negate each other?
    the whole point in LOTR magic is that it is determined by willpower..and by what can be accomplished by it, both in defensive terms and in offensive terms...
    Sauron is the absolute master of his setting in this respect.
    if you negate this and take it away, either completely or partially from the confrontation, I could as well ask of you that Voldy and the death eaters practice their magic without a wand. Willpower is essential to all the procedings in LOTR...especially when it comes to magic and the negation/opposition to magic.
    that you point out flaws in my view of transparency when your whole strategy is based on the assumption that the magic of LOTR can do nothing against HP spells "because it is not a matter of willpower in HP" has very little sense.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ditto View Post
    Lava is down. But the slabs of rock shearing off on top of him on the way down are pretty handy, too.
    once again this does not work... a physical body can be harmed..I agree. but that's just his dress. and even then...look at Gandalf...he has the body of a 1600 old man. how come he has not died or burned in the very first 5 seconds of his confrontation with a freaking demigod made of fire? because he was harnessed by his magic...by his nature and by his "stature"...these are all different ways to say that he opposed to the notion of being defeated untill the very end when he was broken...how did this matter? because willpower is the essential component of any form of magic for the "higher" class of characters in LOTR. (I realize it' gets annoying after a while, but believe me, it's how things work ultimately in LOTR which is a book and not a RPG, in the first place)
    the whole notion of Voldy creating this apparently unfathomable deep crevasse, however, does not appeal to me at all..I simply can't see Sauron falling for it (or in it, for that matter)... and in any case... the magic would fail if Sauron was there. so it's pretty useless to talk about rocks, lava or anything, since it's not going to happen.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ditto View Post
    Voldemort does not have the patience for a long war? It’s all he can do to survive in his own domain? You’re saying this of a wizard whose name causes an entire country to cringe and remained at large for the better part of 30 years… why? Also, ‘small groups of orcs’ is a silly statement.
    no, he has no patience...he tries to do harm and kill as soon as he can, even when he is just a baby, even when he is still only a horcrux, instead of waiting it out and coming back at full strenght like he finaly does.
    he did not remain at large for 30 years...he was killed and it took him 30 years to gather the allies, servants, strenght to get back.. as soon as he could he gave it a go, and failed a few attempts before managing to complete his rentree... or have I read the wrong set of books?
    Quite a bit different from Sauron, who has built up his strenght for the entire 3rd era and would quite likely have continued to do so untill he had found his ring, if the goodies had not forced his hand.
    small groups of orcs is indeed a silly statement... by small I intended legions of several hunderd at a time..
    Quote Originally Posted by Ditto View Post
    Surprise! Magic has loopholes in any system. This especially depends on if you read the rules to say more than they actually do.
    I'm not the one who is speculating wildly on what and how big a damage the fizzyflame or whatever can do. whenever you talk about a magic that has only been seen one time during 7 books, you should put several big "IFs" and quite a few "might" in front of them, don't you think?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ditto View Post
    An issue with the rock-goat-food thing, you say? You cannot create information, either. Does that mean when you turn a rock into pen and paper, you can’t write anything down on it?
    aren't you just being silly now? I'm sure you know perfectly well the difference between creating information (whatever that means, I admit that the passage in the book you refer to eludes me) and passing it on.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ditto View Post
    Everyone in the Order is scared crapless at the notion of facing Voldemort in single combat, though they never expect that to happen. Dumbledore is the only one okay with taking him on.
    so?...in LOTR even gandalf would not face Sauron directly...what gives?
    and again... you have made HP magic so effective and so "ready at hand" that in fact any wizard could well have taken it up against Voldemort..all they need to do is creep up on him and ak him from behind, don't they?
    (since it's so easy)... you should read the books again...they are not scared of him being an uber-undefeatable master of magic...they are mostly scared by the cruelty he is more than willing to display, by the fact that he has minions everywhere and seems able to find out where there is opposition to his plans... they are scared by the fact that he obeys no rules where it comes hard to them to do the same.
    they are scared because they act like sheep and panic..and they are scared because the whole plot depends on it and describes him as a real meany with a lot of tricks up his sleaves... almost every line of Dumbledore shows as much, if you read carefully. HP does not understand this fear because "we the public" use a muggle's logic and he embodies this...several well positioned wizards could take out Voldemort, if it came to a real confrontation...and if the "oh I'm so scared" rule did not prevent this to give the hero of the tale more spotlights.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ditto View Post
    Fiendfyre looks like fire, so Fienddysyntegrate wouldn’t be a very helpful name, would it? It’s still terrifically hot probably scorches the columns and floors and other things it cannot readily consume; I’ll have to reread the passage. Dolohov’s flame strike in the battle of the Department of Mysteries knocks Hermione out for two chapters, but she is not burned. A disillusionment charm does not disillusion someone. An object cannot be imperturbable. The Jelly-Brain/Fingers/Legs jinxes to not literally turn one’s (things) to jelly. There are examples of semi-accurate spell names all over the series, and a spell name does not limit its effects.
    I'd say there are at least as many semi accurate spell descriptions and effects...
    however the whole thing with FF does work against most, but not all, of sauron's troops...not on him
    and not because of silly notions that he baths regularly in lava, because he does not (it can be deduced that he is quite impervious to heat and fire, specially if you look at his next of kin, the balrogs, but this does not mean that he actually lives swimming in the stuff. as anybody who has seen an active volcano knows, it is quite possible to get very close to the lava and not burn to the ground...you sweat like hell, but that's about it..he got closer than most and must have been occasionaly splattered all over by the stuff, but after all he IS a sort of a god)



    [QUOTE=Ditto;3484691]-LOTR magic and Jedi mind tricks depend on the mind of the target. HP magic does not.
    [/spoiler]debatable, but if true, so does the negation/countering of magic... you say it doesn't count because HP magic does not... so you are implicitly ruling out LOTR magic in favour of HP magic..is that what you call transparency?
    Quote Originally Posted by Ditto View Post
    -No magic works on Mount Doom because Sauron set it up that way, not because Sauron exudes an AMF.
    he did not implant a nuclear shield or a series of lightning rods all around moria...he upheld this shield with his "strength/willpower/essence"
    Quote Originally Posted by Ditto View Post
    -Voldemort’s forces are superior in every way to 99.9% of Sauron’s forces. Numbers alone =/= win.
    I think the last 100 posts prove you wrong in several ways on that account.
    Admittedly, a single orc is way out of his league against a single death eater... but that's about it
    a single man can easily trample several ants... but if the man's tied up naked and has had his family jewels dipped in honey, he better hope there are no anthills around..
    Last edited by dehro; 2007-11-08 at 04:32 PM.
    All hail Smutmulch for crafting my avatar!
    Quote Originally Posted by kpenguin View Post
    Cursed zombies are more realistic.
    Spoiler: siggatar and previous avatars.
    Show

    the Badass Monkby Avi. Aktarus by Chd. Dehro by Wojiz


  10. - Top - End - #880
    Ettin in the Playground
     
    dehro's Avatar

    Join Date
    May 2007
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Sauron vs Voldemort

    Quote Originally Posted by warty goblin View Post
    And I just reread the section of Two Towers where Gandalf describes his battle with the Balrog. Nowhere did I see a reference to this death and resurection of which you speak. He was very weakened yes, but that's a long way from death though. He does not even say "I was sent back" or anything like that. The closest he gets is "I felt life in me again", but that's still different from dying and could mean any number of things besides "I was dead". Of course he is also described as being transparent at this point, until he is healed in Lothlorien, but that's still not killed, dead or died, just unusally unrefractive.
    I have a feeling that in one of the other posthumous books of tolkien there was a reference or an explanation on the matter that indeed had Gandalf die...
    I'm not sure though, it might also be that I mix up memories with what we see in the film, that is not always canon.
    anyway, it seems a bit immaterial given the differences between Gandalf's voluntary limitations and Sauron's status.
    All hail Smutmulch for crafting my avatar!
    Quote Originally Posted by kpenguin View Post
    Cursed zombies are more realistic.
    Spoiler: siggatar and previous avatars.
    Show

    the Badass Monkby Avi. Aktarus by Chd. Dehro by Wojiz


  11. - Top - End - #881
    Banned
     
    Rutee's Avatar

    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Gender
    Female

    Default Re: Sauron vs Voldemort

    Does anyone that isn't Ditto (and thus, isn't using what could euphemistically be called 'Rectal Imagery) think Voldemort would win? Anyone?

    Because seriously, this is plain absurd. One's a magician, one's a Demi-God who cancels or survives magic that blows EVERYTHING in Harry Potter out of the water, in sheer devastation (This isn't a difficult feat by any means of the imagination.. most high fantasy settings do). One of them is a practiced and ancient warrior and artificer, one is a less-then-a-century-old racist schmuck who only does as well as he can because his opposition is even less schooled in powerful magics or tactics.

    One has an army of hundreds of thousands of truly fanatical followers, among their number magicians and evil counterparts to a heroic and powerful race, the other has a few thousand semi-close allies, 50 even less powerful wizards who would die for him, and another 50 less powerful wizardlings who are just there out of fear.

    If Voldemort had Tir McDohl's Soul Eater this would be winnable for him, but barring an artifact or item of immense and untold power that he will pull from a plot hole, Voldemort is /screwed/. It's already been demonstrated why. Most of his best tools simply will not work.
    Last edited by Rutee; 2007-11-08 at 06:37 PM.

  12. - Top - End - #882
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    Ditto's Avatar

    Join Date
    Dec 2005

    Default Re: Sauron vs Voldemort

    Deadmeat, that sarcasm was extremely illustrative and helpful. [/sarcasm]

    Again, I did not say magic cannot be blocked. Look, I'll do it again. Here's Dehro's quote. (You didn't say it, WG, not pointing this at you. )
    on the other side you have a demi-god who by constitution and definition is impervious to all of the magic that could be thrown at him by the HP universe...
    Here's my response.
    Certain creatures are immune to certain things; my statement was perhaps imprecise. There is no such thing as INHERENTLY, COMPLETELY immune to ALL magic in HP.
    I did not say there is no way for Sauron to block magic fire or stunners or AK. I said there is no way that he is 'automatically untouchable by these magics, just because', which is what Dehro said. Does that track? Am I being egregiously vague when I say that there's no such thing as total magic immunity?

    Transparency - Sauron can use all the will-based magic he wants. Since we have will-based magic within the HP folio, we have a means to compare those two.
    -Since LOTR magic can be countered with force of will, Voldemort or whoever would have to counter-think at Sauron as he tried to materialize a lightning bolt. (That's probably going to end poorly for Voldemort.) Thankfully, losing that contest won't be an issue because Sauron won't have a target in place long enough to shoot.
    -Since HP magic cannot be negated at onset - you cannot prevent a wand from 'firing' - you have to find another way to stop its nastiness from affecting you.
    We see that Voldemort has effectively-no-way of countering Sauron's magic, and Sauron has no way of countering Voldemort's magic. I think that's fair, and fits the definitions of both systems.

    The exact details are *terrifically* important, WG. What if Fred has a shield that absolutely blocks all magic attacks? You go behind him. Or a Shielding Helmet? You find a way to take it off of him. He resists spells through force of will? Use things that don't relate to will in any way - like, say, Wingardium Leviosa. Sauron stops magic from happening at its onset. That's how the battle of wills works. If I'm trying to make a fireball, boom, I've casted, but Sauron wants to counter me *now*, then that's not at all useful. Again, this counterspelling/resistance was always in a setting of direct conflict, where the opponent was forced to test himself/themselves against the will of Sauron. Not even close to the situation here.

    And yes Rowan, I'll go ahead and say it anyway. AK, as a rule, *very explicitly* in its definition has no defense. The love shield, described as the most ancient and powerful kind of magic not available except in cases of true self-sacrifice and devotion, is the single huge exception to that rule. (The existance of an exception does not mean there's no such thing as the rule...) Further, hitting an invalid target (such as a rock or a Dementor) does not mean that the spell was blocked or has now found a defense against it. It means that when you have an AK bolt coming at you, there is no active defense that can prevent its effect from taking hold. You can try to avoid it, but you cannot stand there and take it.

    I don't know why I never countercited this evidence that Sauron has a physical form as proof that he's mortal(-ish) like Gandalf:
    'The form that he took was that of a man of more than human stature, but not gigantic.'
    Unrefractive is a great word. Why d'you suppose everyone (this is my sources (Wikipedia, LOTR Wiki, Arda...) and common parlance) all say 'Gandalf died', instead of 'Gandalf was beaten to a pulp and revivified' or 'Gandalf was a shadow of his former self' or any of that?

    Saying Sauron can 'block' rather than 'counterspell' effects may well be accurate, but he still has to do so in some tangible way - block implies a physical defense, as I read it.
    Also - Sauron has shown that he is good at blocking magic directed at him. I still like burying him or scooping the ground out from under him or hitting him with swords or any of those things that do not use magic *at* Sauron.

    Orcs are more experienced as a conventional army, yes. They're not fighting a conventional war, so that point counts for rather less. In the war that's being fought, wizards are far more effective combatants. A wizard will never have to outrun an orc or defeat him at arm-wrestling, so that's likewise immaterial - though he could, with a broom // an Engorgement Charm or a Strengthening Solution/Charm or...

    Voldemort *did* remain at large for 30 years. He took 13 years to come back. He then effectively neutralized the country's government one year after his presence became known. I wouldn't call that 'rushing forward blindly', I'd call that 'efficient'.

    I'm going to go out on a limb and say that if the ants/orcs don't tie up and candy-coat the man/wizard, ants/orcs are still in a lot of trouble. I think I missed that metaphor.

    'Rectal imagery' is also a wonderful phrase... I'm mounting it up there with 'Testicular fortitude'.
    This has been steadily peeling the arguments away from 'Sauron obviously wins', then to 'Sauron wins', then to 'Sauron wins because his army is huge', to to to... and at this point, we're talking about 'Sauron wins because he, Sauron himself, can do XYZ'. Something is definitely moving in the debate...
    Last edited by Ditto; 2007-11-08 at 07:47 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by zyphyr View Post
    They don't actually love Gold, they only say that to get it into bed.
    John Dies At The End
    Sauron vs. Voldemort

  13. - Top - End - #883
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    Rowanomicon's Avatar

    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Location
    BC, Canada
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Sauron vs Voldemort

    Sooner or later one of 3 things must happen:

    1) Ditto admits the obvious: Voldy loses

    2) Everyone except Ditto gives up because it seems that 1 will never happen

    3) We all agree that that guys who was talking about the 12 great rings and some weird conspiracy was right and we must praise Sauman the good or whatever
    Quote Originally Posted by EvilElitest View Post
    You are a god
    Many thanks to Bisected8 for the Jokertar.

  14. - Top - End - #884
    Banned
     
    Rutee's Avatar

    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Gender
    Female

    Default Re: Sauron vs Voldemort

    Transparency - Sauron can use all the will-based magic he wants. Since we have will-based magic within the HP folio, we have a means to compare those two.
    -Since LOTR magic can be countered with force of will, Voldemort or whoever would have to counter-think at Sauron as he tried to materialize a lightning bolt. (That's probably going to end poorly for Voldemort.) Thankfully, losing that contest won't be an issue because Sauron won't have a target in place long enough to shoot.
    -Since HP magic cannot be negated at onset - you cannot prevent a wand from 'firing' - you have to find another way to stop its nastiness from affecting you.
    We see that Voldemort has effectively-no-way of countering Sauron's magic, and Sauron has no way of countering Voldemort's magic. I think that's fair, and fits the definitions of both systems.
    I do not think that word means what you think it means. It means, in this context, that the two work on *SIMILAR RULES OF MAGIC*. HP Magic /is in fact counterable under the same rules LotR Magic is/

    Do you need to use a different word or phrase to help you wrap your head around this concept? Perhaps "The systems work on roughly the same rules"? Because by all means, call it whatever you want, as long as you understand the underlying concept, which you're flatly not.

    'The form that he took was that of a man of more than human stature, but not gigantic.'
    ...I would read this to mean "He looked like a human", not "He was mortal", personally.

    Notwithstanding that Voldemort isn't getting any spells off in his presence.

    Saying Sauron can 'block' rather than 'counterspell' effects may well be accurate, but he still has to do so in some tangible way - block implies a physical defense, as I read it.
    Also - Sauron has shown that he is good at blocking magic directed at him. I still like burying him or scooping the ground out from under him or hitting him with swords or any of those things that do not use magic *at* Sauron.
    AK will be blocked by negating the spell. Yes, block implies a physical defense, but if you would read the posts you quoted, you would understand the intention.

    And we have been over this: Voldemort uses magic to grab an object in the terrain, Sauron cancels the magic, and as a side-effect, shatters the object.

    Orcs are more experienced as a conventional army, yes. They're not fighting a conventional war, so that point counts for rather less. In the war that's being fought, wizards are far more effective combatants. A wizard will never have to outrun an orc or defeat him at arm-wrestling, so that's likewise immaterial - though he could, with a broom // an Engorgement Charm or a Strengthening Solution/Charm or...
    Orcs are also more experienced at Guerilla Warfare; What do you think Gondor's Rangers were doing, inviting them to tea and crumpets?

    Voldemort *did* remain at large for 30 years. He took 13 years to come back. He then effectively neutralized the country's government one year after his presence became known. I wouldn't call that 'rushing forward blindly', I'd call that 'efficient'.
    Case. in. Point. He was barely a threat to the secret society of ONE nation.

    Sauron threatened at the very least, the known world. Is the difference in scale lost on you?

    This has been steadily peeling the arguments away from 'Sauron obviously wins', then to 'Sauron wins', then to 'Sauron wins because his army is huge', to to to... and at this point, we're talking about 'Sauron wins because he, Sauron himself, can do XYZ'. Something is definitely moving in the debate...
    Oh my FREAKING GOD! It has done no such thing. We are casually stripping away *what Sauron needs to win*. At this point we have demonstrably shown that if EVERYONE in Voldemort's ENTIRE CAMP rushed him at the same time in optimal conditions he's going to do jack; The vast majority of Voldemort's followers will just do nothing, as the vast majority of the Ancient Armies did nothing to him. Voldemort himself will find his spells cancelled, if they were effective to begin with, and Sauron can do as he wilt to him.
    Last edited by Rutee; 2007-11-08 at 08:24 PM.

  15. - Top - End - #885
    Ettin in the Playground
     
    dehro's Avatar

    Join Date
    May 2007
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Sauron vs Voldemort

    Quote Originally Posted by Ditto View Post

    This has been steadily peeling the arguments away from 'Sauron obviously wins', then to 'Sauron wins', then to 'Sauron wins because his army is huge', to to to... and at this point, we're talking about 'Sauron wins because he, Sauron himself, can do XYZ'. Something is definitely moving in the debate...
    nah...it merely means that you were not satisfied with "Sauron obviously wins" and thus we proceded with explaining the obvious...in progressive greater detail because you are afflicted by a bad case of the nitpicking flue..
    to me it is still obvious that Sauron wins, because I find precious few of your arguments to the contrary to be conclusive.
    anyway, I do not accept the definition of the "scope" and influence of willpower in HP terms as you put it because if reduced thusly it amounts to almost nothing, because it can only divert a small number of spells, while in LOTR it can do so much more and is the ultimate definition of the power of a character.
    basically Sauron is immortal, can not be killed, has ultimate mastery over magic and a series of liutenants that share by lore and demonstrated power a big part of his status. he can, comparatively be classified as a god.

    you would like to strip him of his magical ability, of his immortality, of the independence from a physical body(and consequent independence from the concept of mortality), of his god-like status, of his numbing-mindcrushing presence and superiority...
    to drag him in a set of rules that negate all he is and could do by saying "here it doesn't apply" when in LOTR it does..in order to have him attacked through magic that could never harm him in LOTR
    I can live with that...but what do you offer in exchange? will Voldy put down his wand and go without? will his spells have a reduced capacity? I don't see what else he could offer to even the concessions that are being made on the other side of the battlefield; but no, you would have him fight at his full capacity, not hampered in any way... seems hardly a fair approach to a "full scale-full powers confrontation" does it not?

    either we solve the incompatibility of the two settings finding a compromise, or this topic will never end because Sauron in HP dress does suffer incredibly high and unfair detractions from his personal power alone, and Voldy is simply a non-existing threath to Sauron if we let at least part of LOTR system and texture set the rules.
    Last edited by dehro; 2007-11-08 at 08:34 PM.
    All hail Smutmulch for crafting my avatar!
    Quote Originally Posted by kpenguin View Post
    Cursed zombies are more realistic.
    Spoiler: siggatar and previous avatars.
    Show

    the Badass Monkby Avi. Aktarus by Chd. Dehro by Wojiz


  16. - Top - End - #886
    Troll in the Playground
     
    turkishproverb's Avatar

    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Location
    Under a 1st Ed AD&D DMG

    Default Re: Sauron vs Voldemort

    Quote Originally Posted by Rowanomicon View Post
    Sooner or later one of 3 things must happen:

    1) Ditto admits the obvious: Voldy loses

    2) Everyone except Ditto gives up because it seems that 1 will never happen

    3) We all agree that that guys who was talking about the 12 great rings and some weird conspiracy was right and we must praise Sauman the good or whatever
    2 is the most likely. Ditto is even worse than Most HP fans. Even they would usually admit Voldy isn't unbeatable.

    Its kind've sad really. He's making "Origional Series" Trekkies whom get violent in Kirk vs Picard debates look reasonable. And I've gotten scars in those debates. (never say shatner wears a wig)
    Avatar by Akirim.Elf
    Spoiler
    Show
    by Akirim.elfKickstarter Avatar by Savannah
    Quote Originally Posted by Nerd-o-rama View Post
    Star Wars canon is one of those things where people have started to realize that the guys in charge are so far off their rockers that it's probably for the best to ignore them.
    Quote Originally Posted by Triscuitable View Post

    OH GOD THEY'RE COMING! RUN! RUN, TURKISHPROVERB, RUN!

    Quote Originally Posted by Maxios View Post
    GENERIC FLAMING COMMENT, POSSIBLY INVOLVING YOUR MOTHER !

  17. - Top - End - #887
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    Rowanomicon's Avatar

    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Location
    BC, Canada
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Sauron vs Voldemort

    I agree, this thread has only been an exercise in explaining why it's so obvious that Sauron wins.
    Quote Originally Posted by EvilElitest View Post
    You are a god
    Many thanks to Bisected8 for the Jokertar.

  18. - Top - End - #888
    Banned
     
    Rutee's Avatar

    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Gender
    Female

    Default Re: Sauron vs Voldemort

    Quote Originally Posted by Rowanomicon View Post
    I agree, this thread has only been an exercise in explaining why it's so obvious that Sauron wins.
    Seriously. I thought he stood a much better chance before things were explained.

  19. - Top - End - #889
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    Rowanomicon's Avatar

    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Location
    BC, Canada
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Sauron vs Voldemort

    I didn't think he ever stood a chance at all.

    What amazes me is that Ditto's probably still going to stand behind the "I just thought we should debate it a bit instead of letting Sauron win by default with no debate" line.

    Seriously Ditto, it's be proven several times over that Sauron wins.
    What would it take for you to admit Voldy's defeat?
    Quote Originally Posted by EvilElitest View Post
    You are a god
    Many thanks to Bisected8 for the Jokertar.

  20. - Top - End - #890
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    Eita's Avatar

    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Location
    Ultima Segmentum
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Sauron vs Voldemort

    Actually, his line originally was, "Sauron would beat Voldemort, but he would know that he had been in a fight."
    Spoiler
    Show
    Spoiler
    Show
    My old avatars, in order of use.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bloddyredcommie View Post
    If the players don't, its a glaive to the face.
    I was tempted to just have that say "Its a glaive to the face."

  21. - Top - End - #891
    Titan in the Playground
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Location
    Tail of the Bellcurve
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Sauron vs Voldemort

    Again- no power in HP can stop magic before a spell is cast, that does not mean that no power can do this to HP magic. HP magic is limited by casting time to a higher degree than a lot of magic systems are, there's no reason that a faster system could not, in theory, block the HP wizard before the spell is cast.

    I'm not saying that Sauron can do that, merely that your argument is logically flawed. I'm a math major, we tend to be somewhat anal about this sort of thing. So in set theory: {HP magic} is a subset of {fictional magic}, there does not exist any spell S or ability I that is a member of {HP magic} that can block a HP wizard (who's a member of {HP wizard}, which is a subset of {literary wizards}) from casting spells. But this does not imply that there exists no spell S in {fictional magic} that can stop a HP wizard's spell before it is cast.
    *sorry about that, I can't help myself*

    Again, I don't think that Sauron can do this, what he can do is reflect or re-route any spell, then shatter Voldemort's wand. Battle over. Just for the heck of it, I'm going to go into some real hard-core nerd stuff (not that this thread has had any of that or anything...)

    Here's the breakdown of basic attributes of both sides:
    Speed:
    Voldemort can move quickly through magic, but other than that, he's probably not very spry, due to the lack of physical activity, being seventy+ years old and not exactly having ever been the athletic sort. In terms of ability to bring the pain in a hurry, V-boy's looking at a hefty 2+ second casting time for every spell.

    Sauron is fast- he's one of the greatest melee fighters of all time, and suprise suprise, melee fighters tend to be fast. Check out the Iliad, the fight between Achilles and Hector, two of the greatest warriors of all time is over in what, two spear throws and one spear thrust? That's the kind of fast that Sauron's going to be. He can probably cover the ground on foot at a pretty clip, and at melee range is going to be, well, godly. This also means that he's going to very, very, very good at dodging things.

    Toughness:
    Voldemort is a seventy year old man with that pesky lack of physical activity etc. He'll fold up in one hit like an accordian under a cement mixer.

    Sauron is destroyed by the demolition of a major land mass that reshaped the entire planet and in a solo melee with two three of the greatest fighters of all time. He's tough.

    Magical Ability (general):
    Voldemort is the greatest dark wizard in a hundred years. He's got the standard array of HP magical nasties at his disposal, plus probably some sort of extra uber-evil wizard stuff. Nevertheless he is defeated repeatedly by a child lacking full training. On the plus he has pushed the limits of dark magic to the limit (apparently because dark wizards are morons and nobody ever thought of multiple horcruxes before.)

    Sauron is a spirit with, oh the entire life of the world of experience. He's created new forms of life, built fortresses that even gods take a long time to destroy, created an entire branch of magical lore, and forged the fourth most powerful artifact of all time. He can control weather, detect magic over very long distances and build indestructable buildings.

    Magical Ability: Offensive:
    Voldemort has AK, presumably Fiendfyre, torture, mind control, the usual bevy of school-type jinxes, some summoned weapons and presumably some other stuff, such as those silvery bolts Dumbledore throws around- although those may be unique to Dumbledore since he's the only one to use them.

    Sauron's magical offense is technically unknown beyond his abilty to absolutely destroy people's minds. To keep things somewhat interesting, let's assume that Voldemort is not a complete moron and doesn't try to enter into mental conflict with Sauron, and, for lack of detail, let's not give Sauron any offensive magic at all. The only exception to this is the ability to shatter stuff, since its a known magical power.

    Magical Ability: Defensive:
    Voldemort has protego (I'm guessing, he never uses it), and probably some advanced dark arts stuff, but its never used, so I'm going to ignore it for now. Mostly he gets by because he's barely ever attacked. Voldemort never shows any ability to protect anything besides himself however.

    Sauron can shut down pretty much any magic that's been thrown at him. However, even the greatest of beings make mistakes, so let's assume that Sauron can block 9/10 of incoming spells.

    Territory: Let's assume a neutral ground, with some cover and obsticles, and full availability of power to both combatants. Assume that there's plenty of room to maneuver as well.

    Likely combat range: From my previous analysis, Voldemort will have to be inside of a hundred feet of Sauron to be able to be at all effective. Sauron needs to be somewhat closer, say inside of ten feet, but if he manages it, its an automatic win for him.

    Course of battle:
    Voldemort apperates a hundred feet away from Sauron and casts some spell or other. Sauron dodges, moves towards Voldemort. Its fair to say that he can cover half of the distance between them in the time that Voldemort can cast a spell. Now they are 50 feet apart. Voldemort casts again, this time he's within range to keep Sauron from dodging so easily. Sauron counters, closes remaining distance. At the last moment Voldemort manages to disapparate 9f he's lucky, otherwise he's a grease stain. Sauron hears the loud "pop" and turns to face V again, moving let's say 20 feet towards him. Voldemort now has a max of 80 feet. He casts a spell, Sauron dodges, and shatters Voldemort's wand, then charges. Two seconds later, Voldemort is chased down and killed.
    The end.

  22. - Top - End - #892
    Banned
     
    EvilElitest's Avatar

    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Location
    Oh gods i wish i knew
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Sauron vs Voldemort

    Quote Originally Posted by Ditto View Post
    AK does not kill things that are alive – AK kills things that can be killed. It doesn’t say “Stops things from living”, it says “Kills.”
    Nope, it can't kill Horcucixs, wands, broom, or other intellegent or semi intelligent magical items. Take the riddle dairy for example, it is intellegent, it is "alive", but not in a human sense, and it can't be killed, just destroyed. Same with sauron

    And Sauron can be killed, just like Gandalf… and Gandalf most definitely died, and was resurrected.
    No no no and no
    1. Sauron cannot be killed, he is at that level of Maiar.
    2. Mariar can only be killed unless they are using a mortal body
    3. Gandalf is a spirt that is inside a mortal body, the Balrogs are spirts that are weak and therefor they have mortal shells, though powerful. The latter can be killed, while the formor are just banished from the mortal realm.
    example, when Sauraman's throat is slit, a spirt is shown leaving his body, then going away. When gandalfs first body dies, his spirt leaves, but he is reborn as gandalf the white to replace Sauraman. the body of Gandalf the white is different from the body of gandalf the grey, as well as his personality, as noted quite a few times. He is reborn basically with a new mortal shell
    4. Sauron does not have a true single mortal shell, he simple makes them as he goes along. however, after he was destroyed with the fall of numdamor, he loss the power to shape shift normally, so instead of changing forms whenever he felt like it (as he does in the battle with that Wolf hound god) he can only take one shape at a time. Unlike Gandalf, this shape is not a true body, just a skill, he is still very much a spirt. If he didn't have the ring, then he would only have one body, like his master Morgoth, but as long as the ring is around he just wears the current form like a skill. In realty he is a spirt controlling a body. He can be destroyed by powerful magics, but he simple reforms.

    If Sauron is so effective floating freely, why would he ever take on a body?
    Because he can do stuff, in his "true form" he is just a ghost like spirt, as he becomes at the end of the trilogy. When he wants to interact as a corporal being, he simple creates a body. This is different from Gandalf, who is literally given a body to inabit
    It certainly wasn’t relevant during the trilogy, since there are only passing references to corporeality
    We also never meet him in the trilogy
    Of course a footsoldier could not kill a god with his sword, but if he has a button that said “KILL”, then sure! AK doesn’t care how powerful you are, wizard or muggle or goblin, it just says, “Dead now.”
    But you need to be truly alive to kill, which Sauron is not. He is divine.
    There is no such thing as being impervious to magic in the HP universe, so I don’t know how something could ‘obviously’ by immune.
    But their is in LOTRS. And LOTRS magic is greater than HP, though less flashy (destroying whole continents, sinking islands, ect.



    .


    Voldemort does not have the patience for a long war? It’s all he can do to survive in his own domain? You’re saying this of a wizard whose name causes an entire country to cringe and remained at large for the better part of 30 years… why?
    In case you haven't noticed, the ministry are deeply stupid. Voldemort is also in his own element their, and their are no divine beings to stop him. However, he is prone to inpatient actions, as his final attack on hogwarts shows.
    Also, ‘small groups of orcs’ is a silly statement.
    About that. At hte battle of Pelonor fields, most of the orcs were fighting at the siege, however Sauron took one "hoard" to watch the eastern road to pervent the riders of Rohan from coming. Now their were 6,000 plus riders coming. The hoard didn't expect them to be coming, and had not calvery and were disorgnized, and yet Theoden, Eomor and the Woses king all say that should the Riders attack they will fail. Not win at heavy losses, fail. The apperently vastly outnumber the Riders. So this hoard must be at least 12 thousand to make the riders think that then can't get to the white city and must take a short cut. Possible somethign like 15 thousand. And this is just a guard unit that is to their to block reinforcments that Sauron doesn't really think are coming. If that is just a minor unit, how big his his host fighting the men of Gondor. Also, this 12-15 thousand is called a hoard. When the orcs are attack minis Tirith, the orcs are described to be made up a few hosts (the van guard, main guard, rear guard) that are made up of serveral "hoards" of orcs. So one host, of which their are at least three, possible more are made up of muiltiple hoards that range from 12-15 thousand. Remember, Faramir says that the orcs can afford to lose a hoard for every Gondorian company. And all of these companies' in Olgiliath destroy "ten times" their number, and destroy the most of the Vanguard, but still lose. Also, the Main guard is normally bigger than both the Van and Rear guard. Just a general idea of the numbers.
    The haradrim are described as a hoard and they are said to be three times the Rohan's numbers, thus their are 18 thousands at least plus Mumikel. Now their is said to be another host of Easterlings, and a reserve host of orcs. Just a general idea of numbers





    I know people keep saying I’m imprinting Ditto-as-Voldemort ideas, but I don’t think I’m doing that any more than Others-as-Sauron. And I don’t think that’s too much, at that.
    Sp voldemort would instantly devolp thsi tatic after seeing the orc hoard he go
    "Hey dudes, i know exactly how my enemies powers work, here is the plan"

    Oh and to questions
    1. How is aragorn stones
    2. What is this LOTRS RPG taht everybody is talking about
    from,
    EE
    Edit
    Oh one more thing, the Nazgul have the black breath right? And Sauron is their admittly more powerful master right? He also gave them all their powers. So logically, we can assume that Sauron can use a form of the Black Breath as well.
    Last edited by EvilElitest; 2007-11-08 at 10:46 PM.

  23. - Top - End - #893
    Titan in the Playground
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Location
    Tail of the Bellcurve
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Sauron vs Voldemort

    RE: Gandalf dying.
    Having just reread the portion of TT where Gandalf describes that bit, I'm forced to conclude he didn't actually die, but was just horribly weakened. He never said he left or died or anything like that, merely that he lay there and could hear the groaning of stones and days were very very long. This suggests being beaten to a pulp, but still being alive, since he was actually hearing things. Last time I checked, dead people don't hear things.

  24. - Top - End - #894
    Banned
     
    EvilElitest's Avatar

    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Location
    Oh gods i wish i knew
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Sauron vs Voldemort

    Quote Originally Posted by warty goblin View Post
    RE: Gandalf dying.
    Having just reread the portion of TT where Gandalf describes that bit, I'm forced to conclude he didn't actually die, but was just horribly weakened. He never said he left or died or anything like that, merely that he lay there and could hear the groaning of stones and days were very very long. This suggests being beaten to a pulp, but still being alive, since he was actually hearing things. Last time I checked, dead people don't hear things.
    He said he was sent back. He was given a new body (he is described as notably different as Gandalf the white) with more powers and a slightly different personality. He didn't die, but his body did, he just was given a new one
    from,
    EE

  25. - Top - End - #895
    Titan in the Playground
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Location
    Tail of the Bellcurve
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Sauron vs Voldemort

    Quote Originally Posted by EvilElitest View Post
    He said he was sent back. He was given a new body (he is described as notably different as Gandalf the white) with more powers and a slightly different personality. He didn't die, but his body did, he just was given a new one
    from,
    EE
    Really? Cause I couldn't even find Gandalf saying he'd been sent back, merely "clothed in white" in Lothlorien. What you say makes sense, I'm just going from what I read.

  26. - Top - End - #896
    Bugbear in the Playground
    Join Date
    Aug 2007

    Default Re: Sauron vs Voldemort

    He said he was sent back. He was given a new body
    TTT->The White Rider "Naked I was sent back..."

    Gwaihir the Windlord... "'A burden you have been but not so now' Light as a swan feather in my claw you are'..."

    "'Do not let me fall!'" I gasped for I felt life in me again


    The description could be of a near death experiance rather than death.

    His body was not brand-spanking new and white clothed but naked and tired and little left. He looked like he needed time to recover.

    Of course someone like Gandalf can alter his appearance through magic tricks and Gandalf was a good actor...

  27. - Top - End - #897
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    Ditto's Avatar

    Join Date
    Dec 2005

    Default Re: Sauron vs Voldemort

    I’m actually cool with number 3… now *that* would spawn a very interesting vs. thread, don’t you think?

    Dehro, that’s the problem I’m having with transparency. I know what the word means. The problem is that by saying “The systems work on roughly the same rules”, you mean ‘follow LOTR’s rules.’ They’re incapable of adhering to the rules as you’ve phrased them, since LOTR = Everything counterable. But HP = Nothing is counterable. It’s hard to use those rulesets in the same place. Rather, I’ve tried to refine the definition of LOTR a bit to say that ‘Any magic can be countered by an alert caster who chooses to intervene through at battle of wills against the originating caster.’ Since HP has certain magics that relate to a battle of wills, there is an obvious area where these LOTR rules apply and where Sauron will be overpowering, because that’s everything his brand of magic is about. In other areas, however, - most areas, in fact - will has nothing to do magic. There is therefore no contest to be had. The magic is already done. If nothing but total LOTR-style counterspellability is acceptable in your eyes, then the magic battle is at an impasse.

    WG, by your logic, can’t there be a subset of {fictional magic} called {completely uncounterable spellcasting}? Might Sauron have trouble with that subset of opponents? HP could be in that subset just as easily as LOTR could be in the {I’ll dispel whatever I bloody well want} group.

    The part about ‘an alert caster’ is important because Sauron has to cancel the effect before it takes form, and also it doesn’t make sense that a caster could counter something elsewhere that he doesn’t know is happening. Have there been any examples of sneaky casting in LOTR? All the examples I know of involved direct contests of will where both parties knew what was going on and tried their damnedest to prevent the other’s interference. HP magic is ‘castkthxbai’.

    “The form he took was that of a man” is pretty straightforward. It does not imply Sauron-as-a-whole was mortal, but by the same rules as Gandalf in human form, he can die, whatever that means to him. ('I had life in me again' means you didn't have life in you...) If you can die, AK can do it.

    Voldemort *did* remain at large for 30 years. He took 13 years to come back. He then effectively neutralized the country's government one year after his presence became known. I wouldn't call that 'rushing forward blindly', I'd call that 'efficient'.
    Case. in. Point. He was barely a threat to the secret society of ONE nation.
    How is the fact that he hid for so long and took over the government, and forced the Order into deeper hiding evidence that he was barely a threat and easy to catch?

    I have not tried to strip him of his magical ability, immortality, of the independence from a physical body (and consequent independence from the concept of mortality), of his god-like status, of his numbing-mindcrushing presence and superiority. I am stripping him of magical immunity, corporeal invulnerability, and insta-mindcrushing powers. (Y’know, the things he doesn’t have.) He’s free to do his own magic and continue being quintessentially immortal and be a clever and depressing SOB.

    WG’s analysis time!
    Speed: 2+ seconds is dead wrong, of course. And Voldemort can ‘only’ fly via magic… which has. Via broomstick, if you want to say he could dispel whatever makes V fly, and Sauron can’t dispel magic in items. (But I guess he’ll shatter it.) V still has apparition, which is the nigh-incontrovertable when it comes to tactical speed.

    Toughness: V will absolutely fold once you hit him with a weapon. Good luck with that, though.

    Magical ability: Sauron can do (in theory) almost anything. Voldemort can do lots. Cosmic-level advantage Sauron.
    Offensive: Sauron is a melee fighter, and wins a melee fight. V is a ranged fighter, and wins a ranged fight.
    Defensive: Sauron’s countering abilities (in (your) theory) negate magic, which is a big win. V’s got Protego (duh?) and apparition. Tie/inconclusive/everyone wins depending on how you look at it.
    Territory: As far as holdings, for what it’s worth, Sauron big wins.
    Range: Sauron has far greater range for at least some effects (farseeing); V has huge range (hundreds of miles) for Apparating. Tactical range, Sauron is a melee fighter, plus significantly longer range for whatever his counterspelling doohickey is (provided he knows to work on it). V’s is inside 100 feet.
    Course of battle: I again think you overestimate both V’s casting time and Sauron’s ground speed (based upon that time). In any event, V gets a spell or two off, and leaves to avoid being charged. He does this again and again. If you look at the battle in the Department of Mysteries, he does this lots and lots. He’s good at tactical movement. Also, if you insist upon charging him, V will fly.

    EE, for the last time: BROOMS ARE NOT LIVING CREATURES.
    Does his opponents’ stupidity change whether a war was long or short? (Hint: It was long.)
    The Battle of Hogwarts was not a rash action, but rather prompted out of dire necessity when he realized the final (stationary) Horcrux was in danger. The Death Eaters were actually winning the beginning part of the battle, until all that plot happened. (And Oliver Wood.)

    I’m sorry that you feel it’s merely tiresome, guys, but I think I’ve tried to respond to everything put forth. Other than areas where we completely disagree on the scope or abilities of one side (such as the Black Breath infecting people lethally from across the battlefield, or (it seems) the entire comparative magic situation), I’m pretty okay with how we’ve gone through the points. Things like ‘few wizards hurting armies of orcs’, ‘wizards getting food’, and ‘As Eita says, I’m fine with Sauron winning in the end. I’ve had a few ideas on how to vanquish Sauron, but y’all have disagreed with most and defeated others. (Among others, disagreed with AK and Voldemort knowing so much as how to spell ‘a-r-m-o-r’; defeated digging up lava). I’ve certainly spent more time picking over the ‘Get V’ points than I have drawing up ideas on how to defeat Sauron. As for defeating Voldemort, we’re on the final stage of that now and it depends on V coming to an open battle (in the first place), but more importantly the compatibility and comparability of the magic systems. If we can’t agree on how our opponents are able to battle, then this fight’s ultimately OACA.
    Quote Originally Posted by zyphyr View Post
    They don't actually love Gold, they only say that to get it into bed.
    John Dies At The End
    Sauron vs. Voldemort

  28. - Top - End - #898
    Ettin in the Playground
     
    dehro's Avatar

    Join Date
    May 2007
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Sauron vs Voldemort

    I for myself can sincerely not find a common ground to the magic of these two opponents...if there was to be a common ground, made up of, say, half the powers/spells/immunities/tactics of one and half of the other, I feel Sauron would win, if nothing else because the 2 characters are simply of different "scope"..one a godlike eternal spirit, the other a moronic crackpot (I know, I know, just let me have some fun )....and half a ton is more than half a kilo.
    and even if this was possible, I can simply not immagine how this common ground would be "shaped", by what rules and limitations, or absence thereof.
    wherefore I think the game is off.

    the only confrontation I can somehow figure relies mostly on the analysis of the characters, their behaviour, their "psyche"..their motivation and ambition, the impact they make on the books where they are present, and on the characters therein.
    of course this is even more debatable and subjective and it goes a lot about the literary taste of the reader. in my case this is, once again a hands-down victory for Sauron...if nothing else, because of the literary value of tolkien as opposed to Rowlings. the former intended to create from scratch an epic saga and tradition for a nation that had no such thing..the latter simply wanted to write things that she liked and has capitalized on the resulting boom. nothing wrong with that, and I've read the books with pleasure, but in my opinion it's somehow "less of an achievement" than that of Tolkien

    all of the above are purely opinions and totaly debatable...don't shoot the pianist
    All hail Smutmulch for crafting my avatar!
    Quote Originally Posted by kpenguin View Post
    Cursed zombies are more realistic.
    Spoiler: siggatar and previous avatars.
    Show

    the Badass Monkby Avi. Aktarus by Chd. Dehro by Wojiz


  29. - Top - End - #899
    Titan in the Playground
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Location
    Tail of the Bellcurve
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Sauron vs Voldemort

    For the record, I don't find this tiresome at all, this thread has been one of my primary sources of entertainment for the last two weeks or however long its been going. I'm actually going to miss this thread when we finally conclude it. So thank you Ditto for putting up such excellent arguments for Voldemort. I might disagree with them, but for the most part they are very quality points.

    Now back to my direct comparison between the two.
    You are probably right that I overestimated the casting time for V's spells. I'll cut it down to one second, since much faster than that gets A) Hard to calculate, and B) means he's pronouncing things so fast they'd be gibberish. I'll assume a half-second for effects like apperation and flight, much faster than that and V'd be apperating before he actually had realized he needed to apperate. I'm also going to assume that V needs a wand to perform any magic, including apperation, since I can't remember anybody in the books doing so without a wand, and wizards seem generally crippled without a wand. Loss of a wand will not cause V to fall from the sky if he's flying, that's an ongoing effect that clearly perists when he is wandless (see: book 7), but he will be unable to begin flight wandless. Fair?

    However I do not agree that I'm over estimating Sauron's ground speed. He's bigger than a human, meaning he's got longer legs, has massive physical strength and probably does not tire as people do. He's also going to be very agile, since as you agree he dominates in melee. All this boils down to somebody who, while probably not capable of winning an Olympic dash, can nevertheless move very quickly. If anything I'm shortchanging him in terms of melee reach, since he's bigger than a human and will be able to use correspondingly longer weaponry, but ten feet is an easy number to work with, so I'm sticking with it. O

    Now, outside of a hundred feet, Voldemort is going to be completely unable to hit. In fact, this is probably true unless he's within fifty feet, since lots of spells miss at that range, and Sauron is going to be far better at dodging than your average indoor and out of shape wizard. He's also bigger, which is a strike against him, but I'd say his superior dodging skill will probably overcome this. Nevertheless, it is fair to say that Voldemort will want to open up from long range, since its fairly obvious to everybody involved that getting hit will reduce him to a greasy black stain, so let's assume he starts a hundred feet from Sauron, with both combatants fully aware of the other's position (apperating makes a poping noise, so its use for ambush is impaired).

    Sauron will most likely begin to charge, and cover let's say ~35 feet when V gets his first spell off. Sauron's still outside of easy hitting range, and is a moving target, so V probably misses. V casts his next spell, which S either dodges or magically deflects. Now S is within 30 feet of V, V will be dead before he can get another full length spell off. He either has to apperate or fly, since flight is apparently highly difficult (he's the only one to do it), let's assume he goes for the easiest thing and apperates 50 feet directly behind S. Since S is moving foward at a goodly clip, and is within 17 feet of V when he disapperates, let's assume that S manages to halt his forward momentum and turn around at V's former spot, by the time V get's his next spell off. The two are now 67 feet apart, so the spell is a miss.
    Sauron charges again, getting to within 30 feet (I'm rounding off the two feet here) before V gets his next spell off. S deflects said spell. Again, V will be dead before he can get his next spell off. Since apperation did not gain the needed advantage, V takes to the air, S comes to a halt on the spot where V took off from. Now that V is flying, I feel that its safe to assume his accuracy is somewhat reduced, to say 40 feet. That is, V has to be within 40 feet of S to have a hope of hitting. Assume that he does this from straight overhead to maximize his height advantage. S dispells V's flight spell (its an ongoing effect remember?) V is now falling from 40 feet up. V's reaction time is half a second (given his age, that's being generous), and years of magical training enable him to get his next flight spell off after only falling 30 feet (I'm assuming that he flies here, since most people when falling don't think about appearing someplace else, they think about stopping the fall). Unfortunately, he is now only ten feet away from S, who jumps up and cleaves him in half. End of battle.

    Conclusion: I feel that my givens were very generous to Voldemort, I gave him very fast spell times and the ability to escape whenever possible. I even gave him the benifit of the doubt when falling (if he'd not managed to pull out of the fall, it would have killed or disable him. Again, end of fight). The only things I gave Sauron are his documented melee skill and speed, and his known ability to deflect/block spells, as well as a reasonably fast ground speed. All of this was not enough however, and V still ended up dead.

  30. - Top - End - #900
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    Ditto's Avatar

    Join Date
    Dec 2005

    Default Re: Sauron vs Voldemort

    I definitely agree that Tolkien wrote better literature, even if it *was* just an excuse to build a setting in which to play as a linguist. Not that I think HP doesn't qualify as literature, of course; I also wouldn't go so far as to say she wrote something fun and took it from there after the boom. She definitely had a full story to tell, and it's certainly captured the imaginations of enough people around the world to be regarded with some import.

    I think that's a pretty fair representation of a fight, WG. Several quibbles, though:
    -Charging makes you an *easier* target.
    -Flying gives you an advantage when shooting (does "higher ground" mean nothing, hm?). Also, if you insist on trying to dispel his flight (and we can't say it's hard to do just because it's unheard of - it's a custom spell, that's all) he can just use a broom.
    -We've seen Sauron doing the man-to-man counterspell - when's he dispel some standing effects?
    -V would not want to be flying directly above Sauron. It presents the smallest profile, and then there's the generally bad idea of hovering above someone trying to kill you.
    -Apparating around an area doesn't take any remarkable amount of concentration, since V & D were popping around the grand foyer left and right. They were being surprised by what the other guy threw, so I think it's fair to say that's a good representation of 'apparating under battle conditions'.
    -That's also no slight on his reflexes, since he's a pretty spry corpse and wizards are hardier longer anyway when compared to humans. Dumbledore, at over age 150, only felt age was just catching up to him and slowing his response times.

    You also failed to identify what was going on with every 'V casts his next spell' you threw in there. That's important! Some suggestions for what might happen. These are only named spells; we can get more creative, but this will suffice for the moment.
    -Avada Kedavra. C'mon, doooo it!
    -Expelliarmus.
    -Defodio. Whoops, pothole!
    -Shooting arrows out of his wand. I missed this spell the first time I combed the spell archives, but I thought I'd throw it in there for those folks who said V didn't know what armor or crossbows were.
    -Banishing charm. (Anti-accio.)
    -Impedimenta. (Similar obstructing effect.)
    -Incarcerous. I'm sure Sauron could bust those ropes open, but for a second he's still wrapped tighly in thick ropes.
    -...could we please grant the Jelly-Legs Jinx? Pleaase? You know it would be hilarious to see the Dark Lord of Mordor flopping around on the ground.
    -Ditto Rictusempra and Tarantallegra. (Happy-laughing and crazy dancing are the best ways to incapacitate and evil overlord, evar.)
    -Avis/Oppugno. Canaries attack Sauron, Hilarity Ensues.
    Quote Originally Posted by zyphyr View Post
    They don't actually love Gold, they only say that to get it into bed.
    John Dies At The End
    Sauron vs. Voldemort

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •