Sauron vs Voldemort

[warty goblin]

The balrog countered Gandalf's spell of closing, which was an ongoing effect. Its a reasonable surmise that if a Balrog can do it, so can Sauron, who's the same type of thing and actually I believe commanded balrogs. I feel its also reasonable that when the spell holding you aloft is turned off, you fall out of the sky. Of course it could be that by countering V's spell, Sauron enters into direct mental conflict with Voldemort, in which case it's game over right there. Again, to keep things interesting, I'll assume that this is not the case, which in effect is another advantage to Voldemort.

I don't think giving a half second to decide to and choose a location to apperate to is unreasonable, its about as fast as a human can react anyway.

A charging adversary is not an easier target if they charge sensibly, by which I mean not in a perfectly straight line, forcing the shooting combatant to lead their target and guess tha they will in fact not deviate from their course.

Higher ground is an advantage in physical ranged combat because it makes you a more difficult target and means that your opponant's projectiles must work against gravity while yours gain energy from gravity (well, from potential gravitational energy to be precise). You also tend to gain cover from standing on a hill/wall thingy. Sauron isn't shooting at Voldemort, there's no walls, and spells are never shown to be affected by gravity, hence altitude isn't an advantage. Moving rapildy around through three dimensions does tend to through off aim however, thus my reduction in effective combat range.

As you pointed out due to target profile flight is in some ways a disadvantage since the maximum target profile is presented on the level, any angle above or below will reduce target profile. Voldemort will probably compensate for this by flying relatively low and keeping as much horizontal distance between himself and Sauron as possible. The problem with this strategy is that he is in fact worse off then before, since he will have to be horizontally closer to Sauron than when standing on the level without enough vertical distance to protect him (assuming a preservation of the effective combat range). Now he can shoot a spell and move upwards, but then he runs into the problems of shooting at a weeny target and having his flight countered that we saw earlier.

I also feel compelled to point out that shooting arrows from a wand is a very different thing than understanding armor, or what parts to target.

The reason that I did not actually show what spells Voldemort used is that I would then have to try to optimize his decisions, which would lead to a massive argument about what the absolute best choice is. Regardless, I feel its a reasonable hypothesis that Voldemort will stick with AK at least until Sauron either deflects it or takes a hit and shrugs it off, since AK tends to be V's prefered single-target spell. After that he may get more creative with things like incarcerious (won't work, Sauron's burning hot, bye-bye ropes), jelly legs (ongoing effect that can be removed, falls prey to that massive will again) or something else. The point is that given Voldemort's past tactics and the likely shortness of the fight, he's not going to get a chance to sling every spell known to wizard-kind, and thus will most likely stick witht he ones that have worked well in the past, such as AK, crucio and imperio.

Canaries attacking Sauron would be funny, particularly where his body-temperature roasted them as soon as they attacked. A snack for after the fight!

I hope that this has cleared up any questions anybody may have.

[Ditto]

Yeah, really didn't think through 'higher ground'. Point taken.

Is the Balrog the only example? I'd have to reread the passage, but I thought Gandalf sealed the door specifically because against the Balrog coming through and not just to stall the little nasties chasing them out of Moria. Two people leaning against opposite sides of a door as opposed to one person gluing it and another ramming against it soon after.

I'll also have to reread the HP5 battle to see what all else V does, specifically. Crucio and Imperio are not part of the battle arsenal, though.

Arrow-wanding: Pointing out that he knows what arrows are. And the suits of armor around Hogwarts demonstrated a *passing* familiarity with the concept. "Shoot for the joints and eyes" isn't a hard trick, hm? It's not like Voldemort is using a gun or a computer - things which Voldemort has had zero exposure to in the wizarding world.

Incarcerous - Like I said, petty problem, but he's still got ropes around him for a moment. Same reason I think Aguamenti is a great spell for combat - you can swing a jet of water and cover a wide area, spraying your opponent even if indirectly (generally distracting). And now he's wet, which is sad.

[warty goblin]

Having just paged through that part of The Bridge of Khazad-Dum, I can report the following:

Gandalf only put the spell on the door after he detected the Balrog, although he did not yet know what it was. The Balrog then tried to open the door, percieved that is held shut with magic and tries to counter the spell and succeeds- the door starts to open. The counterspell nearly destroys Gandalf, who uses a Word of Command to maintain the seal, which explodes the door, the wall, and possibly the ceiling.

From this we can intuit that countering spells can actually harm the caster of the original spell, and can cause massive detruction if the "magical pressure," for lack of a better term, is sufficient. Otherwise the spell effect is removed and the laws of physics take over again (the door is pushed and opens, gravity reasserts its claim etc).

Hence on the flight issue if Sauron tries to counter the ongoing magical effect, Voldemort is probably not in danger, since Potter magic is more passive than its LOTR counterpart, although the spell will almost certainly cease to function. If Voldemort tries to resist and maintain the spell in the face of Sauron's opposition (assuming such a thing it possible with Potter magic, which I doubt), than he faces the very real risk of being destroyed. Flight, in short, is really not a very good idea for Voldemort in this fight.

A tactic of continual apperation and spell attacks is Voldemort's best policy here, although even that has the risk of having his wand shattered. The reason that I don't really think he'd go for this is that on the surface it is a far riskier plan, since there's always the chance that he'll miscalculate and end up dead. The air looks attractive since it would effectively put him out of the reach of Sauron's melee skills while still maintaining relative proximity and mobility.

Anyway, that's my take on things.

[Rowanomicon]

Flight, in short, is really not a very good idea for Voldemort in this fight.

You are right. We should also remember that Voldy wont know this until it's too late (for at least one Death Eater).

[EvilElitest]

Oh and Ditto, Brooms are just "alive" enough for my point to work, they have the barest among of sentience's, wands more so. Thus, they are alive in a certain use of the word, just can't be killed by Ak. They can be destroyed however
Oh and from the Fellowship of the Ring, Sauron can "draw all wicked creatures to mordor", and bend it to his will. I think that works for Dementors, Boggarts, and possible giants

from,
EE

[Ditto]

Much like 'high ground', I hadn't considered all the practical issues flight raises. Apparating alone offers more maneuverability. Its tactical speed is more than equal to the challenge of not getting melee'd, since whatever our interpretation of Sauron's stride your estimates still have him turning on a dime and heading already for V's point of appearance before we've finished the sentence. If you're charging someone and have to stop, reverse course and get up to speed in the opposite direction again, you're not moving quickly or gracefully enough to be covering to sort of ground you attribute to Sauron. Not in the span of the fully-granted three seconds it takes til V skips off again.
(On that note - I reread the V vs. D battle. They both manage to poof out of the way of spells already flying at them, which speaks to an even faster response time than suggested. For what it's worth.)
Flying is really only remarkable for the shock-and-awe value, in the book. It's also handy for not getting blown off of your broomstick, of course, but flying via whatever means is usually undertaken only when necessary to battle a foe in flight.

Aha, the Hold Portal description here sounds like magic in David Edding's 'verse. (Belgarverse? Polgaraverse? Sparhawkverse? The man needs a good noun...) Popping someone's spell noticably blows up in their face. I just finished rereading the Elenium, good fun.

Oh, silly silly broomsticks... Perhaps the fact that broomsticks and horcruxes are inanimate objects which were imbued with intelligence by an outside source would suit you, then? AK deals with things that are naturally alive, possessed of innate consciousness and enduring spirit; it separates the fleshy part from the other part.

I think I might sig this Roast Canaries line... it gives me a very funny mental image. Mordor, volcanoes, scorched earth, Dark Lord... bright yellow canaries! Chirping divebombers! Crispy magic popcorn chicken!

[warty goblin]

Ever watch Soccer players? They manage to turn pretty fast and are merely human. Sauron's body is going to be much better than that. Anyway I recall leaving space for Sauron to turn around- at one point he was 20 feet from V, who then apperated, and Sauron wound up standing where V had before apperating. A 20 foot stopping distance is hardly turning on a dime. The reason that I assumed Sauron would know where Voldemort reappeared is basically that Sauron can detect magic and its not like apperition is exactly steathly- it tends to make popping noises, rather like instantly roasting canaries (glad you liked that line by the way).

Even if V does not take to the air, after Sauron grows bored of chasing him up and down (allow one or two at most repititions of this), V's wand is going to be reduced to kindling in his hand. Even if V can apperate away (which I'm not sure can be done without a wand), he's still lost the fight. THe best he can do is to retreat, get a new wand and hope for better luck next time.

[dehro]

Ever watch Soccer players? They manage to turn pretty fast and are merely human. Sauron's body is going to be much better than that.

dribling is quite different than charging. the analogy should be made with rugby. when the bloke with the ball sees the charging opponent coming, said opponent falls to the ground or gets walked away from. now fencing is not like trying to tackle someone, even when you charge at the top of your speed.. so Sauron would certainly not fall over.. but that's about it. I do not picture this strategy to have any effect on both sides..except if one gives up out of boredom.
abother minor point, just for fun... if you splash Sauron with water he doesn't get wet, he gets mad ..and what you get is steam..lotsa steam that makes aiming at him even harder..though I admit it would take some wind out of his sails

[lipe44]

(On that note - I reread the V vs. D battle. They both manage to poof out of the way of spells already flying at them, which speaks to an even faster response time than suggested. For what it's worth.)

Or the spells travels slower than we think they do...

[warty goblin]

Or the spells travels slower than we think they do...

That's a good point as well, and one I consider more likely. Although the where the combat takes place is also quite big so its possible that even at my current speed estimation of ~100ft/second, the two combatants have ample time to dodge.

[Rowanomicon]

Exactly how AK works is OACA, but most things are so we have to work with what we know.

AK doe snot separate flesh from spirit. At no point does anyone say that it cuts the link between spirit and body (or something similar).
It stops the body from working. The only effective way of doing this (besides complete paralysis, which AK does not do) is to stop all neural impulses. There is not longer anything telling the heart to beat or the lungs to breath, this causes body death, and there is not longer any impulses in the brain, this causes brain death. All in all it causes death.

This would not work on Sauron because, not being a mortal, he does not need mortal ways to survive.

If you want to look at it form a flesh and spirit way in HP then think of it like this: Casting AK at Sauron would be like casting AK at a ghost (or spirit, perhaps Peeves would be a better example as he can touch things) who was somehow (for the sake of argument) wearing normal (corporeal) clothes. It would not strip the ghost of the clothes. From what I understand it may singe the clothes (which will have no effect on Sauron's armor), but it will not strip them off.

Also I'm glad someone finally sited something substantial about how Sauron would get the Dementors (and other wicked creatures) on his side. I knew he would, I just couldn't remember where is was said.

[EvilElitest]

Oh, silly silly broomsticks... Perhaps the fact that broomsticks and horcruxes are inanimate objects which were imbued with intelligence by an outside source would suit you, then? AK deals with things that are naturally alive, possessed of innate consciousness and enduring spirit; it separates the fleshy part from the other part

1. Ak does not work on wands or Horcruxes
2. Ok Sauron is not natrually alive, he is a spirt that creates his own bodies. Happy?

Also I'm glad someone finally sited something substantial about how Sauron would get the Dementors (and other wicked creatures) on his side. I knew he would, I just couldn't remember where is was said.

thanks, all throughout the first book their are mentions to Sauron's power to sway evil creatures to his will
from,
EE

[Ditto]

I've always thought a good idea of spell speed was chucking a baseball. It's consistent with some of the essays discussing it on the Lexicon.

Soccer is not swordfighting. You do allow for stop time, but you really can't equate the two. The fact that apparating is not stealthy isn't really a problem... knowing where he is right after the fact isn't as useful as knowing where he's going to be. Apparation can be done without a wand, and V *can* go yoink another wand if he really must.

AK does not say it stops the body from working by cutting off all neural impulses. They're not brain-dead - that implies they could be in some way preserved through science. It says 'you're dead'. Magic, IMO, is far more likely to do something that must be explained in magical terms than it is to give you a heart attack. It's also pretty clear that in every case you have the body on the one hand, and the animating force/spirit/soul on the other, which is no longer present in the corpse. Kicking the animating force out of its shell is a perfectly consistent description of the effect of AK. There's no observable reason for it - they're just dead.

[dehro]

V *can* go yoink another wand if he really must.

they do not grow on trees...I agree he actually used someone else's wand..but let's not make a habit out of it...I should think it isn't all that common a procedure...

but again...we seem to be stuck in a nitpicking loop...shall we just end it before the topic gets boring or we start repeating ourselves?

[Rowanomicon]

He can take a wand from one of his followers, but:

a) that leaves a Death Eater without a wand

b) he needs to go get that wand (yes he can apparate, but he still needs to go do this)

Ditto, AK kills people. It's not exorcism. It does not banish the immortal spirit, it kills the mortal body. Sauron does not have a mortal body. He is more like a construct animated by the spirit on a god.

[Rutee]

Soccer is not swordfighting. You do allow for stop time, but you really can't equate the two. The fact that apparating is not stealthy isn't really a problem... knowing where he is right after the fact isn't as useful as knowing where he's going to be. Apparation can be done without a wand, and V *can* go yoink another wand if he really must.

ACtually, no, you're wrong. Knowing to where someone has teleported is in fact, extremely useful. Exceptional mobility, at its best, ALSO confers a surprise advantage. If you don't know where someone is, you can't put up a very good defense against them. Apparation is 'only' useful in terms of movement speed, because of it.

Second, Wands perform at substandard levels when used by someone not their master. If Voldemort can't win with his own wand, and he can't instantly, within the fight, bring a larger supply of them, he is probably not going to win a rematch.

[Rowanomicon]

While magic =/= science we still have to assume that we are working with a certain level or reality.
AK is magic but it does not "magic kill" people in the sense that their spirit/soul (a magic, as opposed to real*, thing) is destroyed. Also it does not work on things like dementors. Therefore it is a "mortal death" or the mortal body.
One could argue that AK removes the will to live, but then Sauron would be able to resist through sheer force of will.
One could also argue that it removes the body's ability to live. However, we know that is does this with no noticeable effect on the body. Therefore it doesn't stop the body from getting oxygen to it's tissues in any way as that would have a noticeable effect on the tissues; it doesn't cause a heart attack or anything similar that could kill someone very quickly. The only logical conclusion that I can come to is that it immediately inhibits all of the elecro-chemical reactions that we refer to as "life."
Sauron doesn't need these to still inhabit his physical form and use it to full potential as it is powered by his will rather than any mortal means.

*For the sake of discussion I am assuming that "souls" as they exist in HP are not what we have in the real world.

[warty goblin]

I'm going to side with Ditto on this one- souls clearly exist in HP and so are fair game for yanking. Now seperating the soul from the body is not the only thing that AK does, or it would basically be a ranged dementor's kiss, disabling but not killing the target, but Voldemort's recounting of his almost death "I was ripped from my body" would imply some form of soul jerking. What else is done to actually kill the body is unknown, so perhaps total shutdown of nural pathways is a good explanation, but given the evidence the soul definately seems to be yoinked.

That said, its still not going to work on Sauron since he neither has a soul nor a body in the traditional sense and so is an invalid target.

So even if Voldemort's wand is shattered, he can still escape, assuming he thinks to apperate before he's crushed, or, that robbed of the weapon on which he has relied for so long and in the face of an entity as terrifying and altotogetherly wrong and evil as Sauron, he's not reduced to cowering in the dirt and sobbing like a little girl. Let's face it, Voldemort has never been one for mastering fear, and Sauron's presence pretty much defines the term. Assuming he manages to escape, so what? He's failed, and basically been tossed out of the ring with his tail between his legs. Even if he comes back its going to be with someone else's wand, which is less effective, and with the knowledge that his most powerful spells were batted aside like flies bothering an elephant. That's going to work wonders for morale that is.

[Rowanomicon]

Souls/spirits are definitely fair game for yanking, but AK is not an exorcism spell. Nor is it a banishment spell or a spell that reduces the spirit in potency. It is a spell that kills a mortal body. Sauron neither possesses nor needs a mortal body so it has no effect on him.

I think Voldemort is a special case as far as dying goes as his body is still mortal and therefore can be killed by conventional means (including killing spells), but his soul is held in the world as something more substantial than a ghost. That is to say the he seems to exist as a somewhat separate entity from his body, but his body still requires mortal functions to live.
I don't think any ghosts describe any soul yanking effects.

The basilisk's gaze seems to be somewhat similar to AK when directly taken in that it's a super natural auto-kill effect. No, it's not a green laser, but you get my drift.

Moaning Myrtle describes when she died from the basilisk's gaze and, as I remember, does not describe any soul yanking or ripping from body.
I don't have any HP books on hand so if someone could quote the book it would be great. I seem to remember it being something as anti-climactic as "Then I was dead."

EDIT: Also, we seem to have neglected discussing whether or not Voldy could actually stand up to Sauron for long to cast all these spells. I definitely agree that reducing him to a whimpering lump is a possibility. He'd probably last a little bit longer than most of him minions though (especially wandless Death Eaters).

[lipe44]

I finnaly bought The Simalrillion and reading it i saw a reference to Sauron that when attacking a city of the noldor(not sure if how its on English) none of them attacked him because they were all in fear. If it worked on them, im sure it will work on Voldemort...

And about AK, it does NOT destroy the body, it just stop it from living. Since Sauron's body is NOT alive it will manage to do nothing. And Sauron can just send it back at Voldemort.

Is the Balrog the only example? I'd have to reread the passage, but I thought Gandalf sealed the door specifically because against the Balrog coming through and not just to stall the little nasties chasing them out of Moria. Two people leaning against opposite sides of a door as opposed to one person gluing it and another ramming against it soon after.

He sealed the door to prevent the orcs from passing then the Balrog entered the room and detected the magic and countered it, the door started to open(Gandalf said the counter almost destroyed him) and him used a word of Command to shut it again, the shock of the two forces destroyed the door and the tunnel. All orcs died and the Balrog retreated.

[Ditto]

I really don't see how 'he took the form of a man' is unclear. It sounds exactly like Gandalf.

Knowing where the apparation ends up isn't as handy if the attack comes immediately thereafter. It's also quite simple to make noise around (there might be plenty anyway, they're not fighting in space... yet!) that could obscure the slight 'pop'. Acting quickly makes any disadvantage incurred by the pop insignificant.

Voldemort could certainly have had a different experience than another fellow hit by AK because he wasn't really off to deadland. (Heading off into the world of conjecture...) Or maybe folks hit with AK don't get the option to become ghosts, since their souls are violently punted out of the body. I could see the distinction of the Dementor's Kiss vs. AK being that you can still live if your heart or brain is removed slowly and carefully, but it's game over when you rip the thing right out. People have that discussion all the time, which is worse: Vegetable or corpse? (Now we add 'or ghost or wispy-soul-thing'.)
In any event, AK does indeed magic-kill the target. That doesn't mean the soul is destroyed, it just means that magic part of you is now gone.

'Voldemort's not one for mastering fear'? What exactly are you refering to?

Strange wands perform at suboptimal levels, not substandard levels. It's an important distinction. But not important as a tactic, anyway.

[warty goblin]

Spells still aren't cast instantly upon reappearing from apperation, there's a limit to how fast you can act. Apperation is really only useful for getting around and avoiding being squished, but its not the be-all, end all of magic. For one thing we know its perfectly possible to lock apperation down hard through magic. We know Sauron is capable of turning off magic in areas he chooses and is near, hence it seems relatively reasonable to suppose that he can prevent apperation. Even if he can't, it just means that Voldemort bounces around like a hyperactive cricket before the sheer terror of Sauron's presense overwhelms him.
Anyway, give me a runthrough of a potential battle between the two in which Voldemort actually manages to do more than survive. As it is the best you've given is ways he can avoid dying, which is a very different thing than winning.

And by "Voldemort is not one to confront his fears" I meant that he is petrified of death. Sauron is pretty good at instilling fear of immediate and complete destruction in those who oppose him. Hence Voldemort will have a hard time fighting him.

[Rutee]

Knowing where the apparation ends up isn't as handy if the attack comes immediately thereafter. It's also quite simple to make noise around (there might be plenty anyway, they're not fighting in space... yet!) that could obscure the slight 'pop'. Acting quickly makes any disadvantage incurred by the pop insignificant.

I thought it was a loud bang, hence Mundungus Fletcher causing trouble for Harry in Book 5. And 'immediately' in HP-verse magic terms, is 2-3 seconds afterwards; You know this, as do I. It also involves announcing your position in really loud pseudo-latin, if you hadn't already with the pop. Average human reaction time is 1 second. Gamer reaction time is usually measured in fractions of a second. Sauron is probably faster then both.

Strange wands perform at suboptimal levels, not substandard levels. It's an important distinction. But not important as a tactic, anyway.

Uh, that would imply wizards perform at less-then-their-optimal state most of the time anyway; Sounds more like they run at 100% most of the time, and having a strange wizard's wand runs them at less-then-100%.

[lipe44]

I really don't see how 'he took the form of a man' is unclear. It sounds exactly like Gandalf.

"Took a form of a man" and "Took a mortal body" is the same thing? For all we know it doesnt suggests that Sauron's body is alive, suggests more like an armour that he controls.

Knowing where the apparation ends up isn't as handy if the attack comes immediately thereafter. It's also quite simple to make noise around (there might be plenty anyway, they're not fighting in space... yet!) that could obscure the slight 'pop'. Acting quickly makes any disadvantage incurred by the pop insignificant.

After apparatating it will take at least 1-2 seconds before acting, a experienced melee fighter will move before you can do anything.

Voldemort could certainly have had a different experience than another fellow hit by AK because he wasn't really off to deadland. (Heading off into the world of conjecture...) Or maybe folks hit with AK don't get the option to become ghosts, since their souls are violently punted out of the body. I could see the distinction of the Dementor's Kiss vs. AK being that you can still live if your heart or brain is removed slowly and carefully, but it's game over when you rip the thing right out. People have that discussion all the time, which is worse: Vegetable or corpse? (Now we add 'or ghost or wispy-soul-thing'.)
In any event, AK does indeed magic-kill the target. That doesn't mean the soul is destroyed, it just means that magic part of you is now gone.

It killed his body but because of the Horcruxes he didnt "advanced" so for him he was just ripped apart from his body while other people would "advance".

'Voldemort's not one for mastering fear'? What exactly are you refering to?

Not so well as Sauron that(At Silmalrillion)took Minas Tirith(Yes it did existed that time) alone, all defenders(people who have win battles against Dragons, balrogs and orcs for years) entered in panic and run in fear.

Strange wands perform at suboptimal levels, not substandard levels. It's an important distinction. But not important as a tactic, anyway.

It DOES make harder to use magic, in a fight everything makes difference.

[Rowanomicon]

Yeah, I'd have to say that if not a single Noldor could attack Sauron because of fear his presence causes then not a single member of Voldemort's team (Voldemort included) could stand up to Sauron.

The only exception to this that I see is the Dementors and it's all ready been shown that they would join Sauron.

If someone could link to a video or sound file of an old video game saying "Game over; you lose" that'd be great.

EDIT: Also "form" means shape. Man-shaped and mortal are two very different things. If something is one it does not have to be the other. However, they are not mutually exclusive. From that statement alone it is possible that Sauron has done the same as Gandalf, however we hear a lot about how Gandalf sacrificed a lot of power by taking a mortal body. We do not hear anything about Sauron's power being decreased by his physical form. In fact we head a lot about how incredibly powerful Sauron is.

[Ditto]

I think this is the accepted stand-by for You Lose files. (I found it first! Nyah! )

"Form of a man" could certainly be different from "Became mortal". But "Put on a man-suit" sounds just like "Put on a mortal shell and I do all the driving". It's not conclusive, but it's the only description we have of that era's Sauron. Considering how the other Maiar tooling around at the time were totally humanfied, it's not a huge leap of logic to see him set up with the same deal. (Gandalf was also told explicitly not to use his whiz-bang powerful power in this age in lieu of destinying and hopefuling the Men, so losing the whiz-bang is sort of unremarkable. "I have little power in this human form" can mean "This form cannot contain my otherwise uber power" as well as "I don't have my uber power handy, and I am in human form.")

It will take 1-2 seconds before acting? Where'd that number come from? There's no disorientation involved when you're moving around line-of-sight, and the HP5 battle is pretty clear on the fact that you don't lose a beat due to apparition. They reappear and shoot from the hip in the same motion. The bang and the crack and the pop are interchangeable, it seems. Disapparating more commonly has the louder 'crack' sound attached to it. The spells need not be spoken or shouted.

Voldemort is afraid of death; that's not the same as being afraid of being killed. Fear of ultimatefinaldeath is what motivates him into protecting his limited immortality and attemping to cement it with further measures. Everyone else before the Nazgul or Sauron were afraid of being killed (and rightly so!), but Voldemort doesn't have that weakness to prey on.

[Rutee]

It will take 1-2 seconds before acting? Where'd that number come from? There's no disorientation involved when you're moving around line-of-sight, and the HP5 battle is pretty clear on the fact that you don't lose a beat due to apparition. They reappear and shoot from the hip in the same motion. The bang and the crack and the pop are interchangeable, it seems. Disapparating more commonly has the louder 'crack' sound attached to it. The spells need not be spoken or shouted.

No, but casting has a delay on it. 2-3 seconds. That's all I meant. It always has a delay on it. That's the gesture/incant time, since even if you think the word that delay is still there, apparently. Not that I've ever seen anyone wordlessly cast in a HP Book. The incant never seems to take as long as the gesture, so it's a moot point if it's silent or not, regardless.

[lipe44]

I remenber it makes a comment on seconds in the book.

Anyway, in the book Voldemort apparatate right behind or next each other, if Voldemort do so with Sauron they will die because Sauron is an experienced melee fighter and can react faster than Voldemor can.

So Voldemort has to apparatate far from Sauron making even harder to hit him.

[Rowanomicon]

Yeah, that's a good "you lose" thing, even though it's not form a video game.

You still haven't addressed why Voldemort is braver or as stronger willpower than Noldor.

In fact Voldy and his forces have to stand up against the fear (and such) of Sauron, The Nine, and the Dementors.
(Sauron doesn't even need Saruman or the vast hordes to win.)

Voldemort is definitely not immune to fear (I realize you never actually made this claim). Neither is he immune to fear of what Sauron or the Nazgul can do to him. First of all there's the pain. Secondly there's the fact that after dying (but not perma-dying) he will be insubstantial until he can re-gain his power. Thirdly, if he or one of the Death Eaters gets any spells off, he will see that Sauron is immune to everything he can throw at him; this will not be good for morale. Finally, if the fight lasts long enough fro Voldemort to learn about Sauron, he will learn that Sauron will, once Voldemort loses, make him suffer for eternity.

The phrase "man-suit" does not appear in Tolkien's works. Nor does it say that Sauron is any more than humanoid in shape. There is not reason to believe (as I explained) that Sauron possesses a mortal body, needs a mortal body, or is restricted in the same ways as Gandalf.

[Ditto]

You’re right, man-suit is just my wording. ‘His form was that of a man’ does not mean ‘humanoid’. It means human. Man, specifically. Whether this shell can be destroyed is up for debate, but I think the phrase is very clear. “Y’know how man has a certain form? He looked just like that.” Hm? The Maiar always need some sort of mortal body to function tangibly (that is physically) in the world, even if they can continue doing their things as spirits. All of the other forms Sauron took were killed

Lipe – What do you mean, they apparated right behind each other? That’s not true in the MoM battle, so what else are you thinking of?

Voldemort’s forces for the most part are in trouble with the fear when the time comes for close combat with Nazgul. I don’t know if he’s braver, and willpower apparently has nothing at all to do with the fear effect since no one can fight the Nazgul but Gandalf (and Eowyn… and Merry… ‘cuz they really felt like it). Voldemort still wouldn’t have that problem, because he’s not afraid of anything going on right there.

I’m still not sure what you mean by ‘casting has a delay on it’. How long does it take to say “Alakazaam!” and throw a baseball? (Answer: .5 seconds for the baseball to travel ~45 yds. Go ahead and take a full second for saying big long words, if you must.) Still damn fast. The gesture is *rarely* more than flicking or swiping the wand, and there are many examples of silent incantations. Dumbledore did them all the time (Hominem Revelio and Petrificus Totallus for starters), Harry did it several times (Refilling charm and Protego), Dolohov did an angry purple flame strike with a swish of his wand while Silenceo’d…