Sauron vs Voldemort

[landadmiral]

After ignoring this thread for about...20 pages, i decided to jump on see what the discussion has been like.

AND I CAN'T BELIEVE SAURON HAS STILL NOT ACHIEVED VICTORY!!

c'mon, voldemort is not that smart and not that pretty, dump him and move on.

[Rutee]

I’m still not sure what you mean by ‘casting has a delay on it’. How long does it take to say “Alakazaam!” and throw a baseball? (Answer: .5 seconds for the baseball to travel ~45 yds. Go ahead and take a full second for saying big long words, if you must.) Still damn fast. The gesture is *rarely* more than flicking or swiping the wand, and there are many examples of silent incantations. Dumbledore did them all the time (Hominem Revelio and Petrificus Totallus for starters), Harry did it several times (Refilling charm and Protego), Dolohov did an angry purple flame strike with a swish of his wand while Silenceo’d…

The Harry Potter movies are valid for some things; This is one of them. Do recall that unlike the LotR movies, Rowling was in fact available for consultation on these. Notwithstanding that if there is silent casting, it is completely contained within the last 2 books, because it flatly doesn't happen in the first 5.

Casting has a 2-3 second delay on it. Even if it was just one second, *I* still have a drastically faster response time then that. Sauron is probably faster then a gamer.
Edit: *Sauron* is probably faster then a gamer. Voldemort's just an old man with a wand who knows how to use it. He's not going to be anywhere near as quick as me.

[Deadmeat.GW]

Voldemort’s forces for the most part are in trouble with the fear when the time comes for close combat with Nazgul. I don’t know if he’s braver, and willpower apparently has nothing at all to do with the fear effect since no one can fight the Nazgul but Gandalf (and Eowyn… and Merry… ‘cuz they really felt like it). Voldemort still wouldn’t have that problem, because he’s not afraid of anything going on right there.

Hum, small question...are you really saying that a terror effect that covers a WHOLE city is NOT going to affect Voldemort?

Hum, why?

Has he shown to be immune to fear or doubt somewhere in the books?

I remember distinctly that he was getting worried and more then worried by HP to the point of getting another persons wand to tackle HP.

He may not have been scared witless but he was not immune at all to this.

Merely being on the same battlefield he should have severe trouble.

[Rowanomicon]

You’re right, man-suit is just my wording. ‘His form was that of a man’ does not mean ‘humanoid’. It means human. Man, specifically. Whether this shell can be destroyed is up for debate, but I think the phrase is very clear. “Y’know how man has a certain form? He looked just like that.” Hm? The Maiar always need some sort of mortal body to function tangibly (that is physically) in the world, even if they can continue doing their things as spirits. All of the other forms Sauron took were killed

I have already stated that "form" means "shape." here's the link to Dictionary.com's page on the word "form."
This does not mean that he functions as a mortal. I also think the phrase is very clear; it means "he is in the same shape as people are."
One can debate if he also has a mortal body, but I see much more evidence to suggest that he does not.

Maiar do not always need a mortal body to function physically: Balrogs. They did not take mortal bodies as the Istari did (the only examples of Maiar explicitly being stated as taking mortal bodies), but they can still function very potently on the physical realm.

Actually, there's never any reference to Sauron being killed. His forms are destroyed (when his magic is overcome). I'm pretty sure I don't need to point out the difference between killing and destroying things.

Voldemort’s forces for the most part are in trouble with the fear when the time comes for close combat with Nazgul. ... Voldemort still wouldn’t have that problem, because he’s not afraid of anything going on right there.

Well, I'm glad you're admitting the trouble that Voldy's forces would have with The Nine.
The fear caused by Sauron (or The Nine) has nothing to do with the presence of a person's normal phobias (although that may weaken them further); their very presence is something to fear. Also, I already pointed out that Voldemort will have reason to be afraid on the battlefield.

[EvilElitest]

Two points
A) Concerning Sauron's Form
1. All Mair were once imcorpral spirts, the balrogs, the wizards, Sauron, ect. However, as they enter the mortal plane them may take coporal forms. This is very important to note however, Mairar (and Valar) only permently takes these forms after using up lots of power
Example- Melkar, Sauron's master at first could take any form, battle all the valor at the same time, and turn into things such as shadow and flame. however, as he used more and more of his power (creating orcs, trolls, balrogs, dragons, fortresses, ect) his power became less and less, until he only had a single mortal form (the one that got burned and scared ect). The lesser Mairar such as the Balrogs took mortal form when they first came to the world and could not take any other form. The more powerful ones such as Sauron could shape shift, but would lose that power if they used to much power, suffered defeat, or were destroyed temporally. Sauron at his height could just create any form he wished but he knew that if he was ever destroyed he would be forced to have on single form or be destroyed entirely.Thus he poured most of his power into the One Ring, and it was with this he could create mortal forms for himself. When he was destroyed in the changing of the world, he lost the ability to shape shift, but he could still create new forms to house his spirit. When he returned to Mordor, he created a massive human shaped form with burning skin. When this was destroyed, his spirit escaped, as did it did during his first death. However when he was destroyed the second time, most of his power was still in the Ring. Thus, while he created a new form for himself, he is not as powerful as he is with the ring, but he still creates a form to house his spirit,
Gandalf on the other hand has a human body, it is shown to age (slowly) has no special effects (super strength, magic ect), it is just a mortal body. The spirt has massive magical powers but these are weakened. Should the body be killed, the spirit leaves this world (though gandalf comes back)
The Balrog has a single mortal form, though extremly powerful. It is not a mortal body, but it is still a mortal form, should it die (as it did) it stays dead Gandalf and the Balrog are trapped essentially in their mortal forms and are thus mortal, Sauron is not
B) Fear
Now how important is this? Well lets look at Sauron much weaker servents,the Nazgul.
All of the Nazgul bring about fear. In every instance they are mentioned, fear is one of their greatest powers. It is so powerful that people literally cannot fight them at times. This is not a rational fear, it is irrational fear that involves a lot of panic and running away. When the WK attacks Minis Tirith, the people would not even attack until Gandalf dispelled his fear. Aragorn admits to being unnerved by them at the best of times, and he is one person with the most anti Sauron powers. The Nazgul's fear is crippling, and implied to be painful. The Nazgul's can effectivlly destory foes through fear alone
Now Sauron is far more powerful and we know he has fear effects, so must be more powerful then the Nazgul
Now Voldemort is not immune to fear, and the Nazgul's fear is irrational. However, knowing his nature, i could see him resisting Sauron's fear (though it would still trouble him) as long as his horcuixs were around, but his minions on the other hand?
from,
EE

[Ditto]

Gotta dash, but a few quick things-

I don't care what you say about gamers' reflexes, Dumbledore and Voldemort are on top of their game, 150 and 70-years-old or not. Wizard aging is not Muggle aging, and in any event they're demonstrably fast on the draw. Sauron is 'probably faster than a gamer'? Maybe Maiar's reflexes get rusty as they age too. (I don't seriously think that, but it doesn't matter one way or another. Nobody said Sauron was superhumanly fast. The idea here seems to be that everyone pees themselves when he shows up and the rest is him tipping them over. Perhaps while walking very slowly. I bet Sauron is fat. )

There is no such thing as fear itself. (I don't care what FDR said.) You have to be afraid *of* something, even if it's only on an unconscious level. That nonspecific aura is going to have to get pretty specific on Voldemort. The city-wide range of the Nazgul's effect is minor - certainly not the debilitating field that is proposed here when the Nazgul so much as fart in the direction of an enemy. And it can be overcome enough to act if you're nuts (Bellatrix, for what it's worth... she's #2 on the Top Witch list after McGonagall) or for random frantic potshots, anyway. And do the Nazgul have untold-of counterspelling powers, too? Transfiguring trees or spears or all sorts of things can cause trouble for them that doesn't involve a wizard getting close. (And someone also said that you can only control/animate one thing at a time, which is patently false. Dumbledore animated the entire Fountain of Magical Brethren with one swish, and animating anything is a Transfiguration which requires no further concentration.)

Silent magic hadn't been seen *labeled as such* until the last two books because Harry & co. hadn't learned about it yet. JKR has said that Dumbledore's choice method of detecting invisible interlopers is a silent Hominem Revelio. Depending on how specific you feel the general beckoning motions are, any simple effect of that sort might be a silent Accio. It's not developed in all its possible facets, but it most definitely exists throughout the series.

Sauron's destroyed when his magic is overcome? I thought that be unpossible!

[warty goblin]

Sauron's speed- he was fast and agile enough to solo three insanely skilled melee combatants and kill two of them. To return to my earlier Iliad metaphor, he took on Achilles, Hektor and Telemonian Ajax and killed everybody but Ajax before being destroyed. Now if that's not fast and posessing good reflexes I don't know what is. Another thing that goes with melee skill like that is the ability to read what people are going to do, where they are going to move, and where they are going to aim and attack. Its going to be darn near impossible to ever get the drop on somebody like that. In a test of reflexes, I'm putting my money on Sauron every time. Put another way, Voldemort shows himself capable of fighting one other wizard of near his skill at considerable distance using slow traveling and easy to see magical effects while having the option to teleport. Sauron has shown himself capable of fighting up close against fast moving weapons against multiple opponants.

And Voldemort is a pretty easy guy to scare- he's absolutely petrified of death. That's a major weakness right there, and one that's pretty easy to play off of and not that hard to guess (its not some obsure phobia like 'fear of being emo' or something like that). I mean, after Sauron tries the fear of public speaking one, isn't death next on the list?

Again, present me with a reasonably balanced senario in play by play form where Voldemort wins and I'll consider his victory a possibility. Until then I'm afraid he's already lost in my mind.

[Rutee]

I don't care what you say about gamers' reflexes, Dumbledore and Voldemort are on top of their game, 150 and 70-years-old or not. Wizard aging is not Muggle aging, and in any event they're demonstrably fast on the draw. Sauron is 'probably faster than a gamer'? Maybe Maiar's reflexes get rusty as they age too. (I don't seriously think that, but it doesn't matter one way or another. Nobody said Sauron was superhumanly fast. The idea here seems to be that everyone pees themselves when he shows up and the rest is him tipping them over. Perhaps while walking very slowly. I bet Sauron is fat. )

Warty Goblin has adequately shown, to me, at least, why Sauron is a pretty quick guy (It doesn't hurt that when you mention those heroes to me now, I start thinking of Fate/Stay Night's interpretation of said heroes). You tell me why, in a world that places no premium on agility, and no manual dodging is done by either of your two mentioned examples (Teleport out, yes. Block, yes. Physically get the hell out of the way? No, not by those two), why I should believe that THEIR power equates to reaction time and physical movement capacity.

No, seriously, you tell me that, and I'll give it to them in whatever degree they seem to earn. Because based on what I've read, I have no reason to attribute any serious agility to either. I don't /actually/ think they're crippled old men, but I have no reason to believe they're even as quick as a young, fit girl, let alone a demigod of immense power who's held off multiple living legends in melee combat.

[....]

Everytime you post in this threat...

Orcs eat a kitten.

Please. Think of the kittens.

[turkishproverb]

Everytime you post in this threat...

Orcs eat a kitten.

Please. Think of the kittens.

But..but..

you know what? who cares. All the catgirls are dead anyway.

EDIT: Incidentally, how do I join the fanclub?

[Niun]

Gotta dash, but a few quick things-

I don't care what you say about gamers' reflexes, Dumbledore and Voldemort are on top of their game, 150 and 70-years-old or not. Wizard aging is not Muggle aging, and in any event they're demonstrably fast on the draw.

I'll admit that I'm likely nitpicking, but Dumbledore (according to the Lexicon) was only 115 or 116 when he died, not 150.

[Rowanomicon]

Voldy and Dumbledore are powerful (for their setting), but their agility would not be anywhere close to Sauron's. I think that's been demonstrated.
Also if Voldy is teleporting in his line of sight then he will be looking at where he will appear before and as he disappears.
I remember an old X-Men comic where Magneto could tell where Nightcrawler was going to appear before he appeared and totally owned him (and the rest of the X-Men). I know that doesn't pertain tot his debate really, but I was just reminded of it.

There is no such thing as fear itself. (I don't care what FDR said.) You have to be afraid *of* something, even if it's only on an unconscious level. That nonspecific aura is going to have to get pretty specific on Voldemort. The city-wide range of the Nazgul's effect is minor - certainly not the debilitating field that is proposed here when the Nazgul so much as fart in the direction of an enemy. And it can be overcome enough to act if you're nuts (Bellatrix, for what it's worth... she's #2 on the Top Witch list after McGonagall) or for random frantic potshots, anyway.

I'm not even going to bother arguing about abstract fear until you successfully dismiss the specific points that were brought up about what exactly Voldemort would be afraid of in that situation.
I will, however, point out that while a complete lack of fear would be insanity (or at least serious stupidity) it does not follow that all those who are insane are immune to fear.

And do the Nazgul have untold-of counterspelling powers, too? Transfiguring trees or spears or all sorts of things can cause trouble for them that doesn't involve a wizard getting close. (And someone also said that you can only control/animate one thing at a time, which is patently false. Dumbledore animated the entire Fountain of Magical Brethren with one swish, and animating anything is a Transfiguration which requires no further concentration.)

Yes, The Nazgul, especially The Witch King, are powerful casters. The Witch King is of a comparable power level to Gandalf. This means that he, if none of the other eight, is most likely more powerful than Voldemort. I'm sure we can at least agree that he is more powerful than any of the Death Eaters.

Animated objects can be un-animated.

Sauron's destroyed when his magic is overcome? I thought that be unpossible!

Sauron's body is destroyed after The Ring is destroyed.
It is also destroyed when he's soloing three of the greatest heros ever who have not only awesome fighting, but also powerful magic on their side.

On that topic, I realized how to (fairly) accurately represent the melee fighter / caster heros from Tolkien's works in D&D: CoDzilla!


On a side note, after witnessing/experiencing some arguments in other threads, I'd like to thank you all for keeping this one so civil and mature. Even if points are ignored, references are wrong, or logic is faulty I think that everyone in this thread has conducted themselves magnificently and that has made this debate an entertaining and enjoyable exercise.

[Ditto]

You’re right about Dumbledore’s age. I just had that 150 number from JKR’s throwaway statement in my head and hadn’t done the math since book 7. Still, pretty spry.

Just because he killed them doesn’t mean it was a fast battle. And what kind of powerful magic did the heroes have on their side? You’ve stated repeatedly that no magic worked during that battle at Mount Doom. Again, the fact that they were heroes may have prevented them from peeing themselves but does not mean they were in top fighting form. Maybe Sauron’s heat makes it unbearable to remain in close combat with him, so there were little retreats while they caught their breath and Sauron implacably stalked toward them. There are many more ways to interpret the completely unhelpful “Sauron dominated the battle but lost the Ring and poofed” than “Sauron is an even *better* swordfighter.”

I never said all wizards were fast sprinters, but they can certainly have incredible reflexes. (Take anyone playing Quidditch. Or anyone in a running magic firefight!) And they’re tough, too. Bend-but-not-break and bounce and all that. Just because there are only a few wizards we see doing any physical training doesn’t mean they’re all fat slobs. (And they’re not, for the most part, fat slobs, which by rights they should be considering the richness of the Hogwarts diet.) AND apparition is still the reflex you need – why would Voldemort go running around when flying manually or on a broomstick gives him that much more speed an mobility on top of that (even close to the ground)?. Sauron being good at blocking melee blows at high speed does not mean he’s good at diving out of the way. Doesn’t really seem his style, either.

Magneto knowing where Nightcrawler is going to appear and owning him is terrifically relevant to this debate. I’m curious as to how that worked, exactly. If you can think of a rough issue number or plot I’ll look it up, I have the first 250-odd comics handy. Even if that went well for him, Magneto is way more useful than Sauron in that regard. (Hm, that’d be a whole different vs. thread… mutant powers (mostly) aren’t magic…)

Complete lack of fear is indeed insane. Insane != lack of fear. However, Voldemort does have one big fear (that of final-terminal death, which he’s utterly unconcerned that anyone who isn’t Dumbledore could effect anyway) and Sauron doesn’t look like that. An aura of fear doesn’t intimate the sort of details that might scare him – “I can hold your soul bound for untold eons until it pleases me to release it unto oblivion.” is perhaps a valid threat and bad news, but that doesn’t come across.

Animated objects (such as dancing suits of armor in HP7) can be unanimated. Transfigured and now animate objects (makeshift Ents or *transfigured* suits of armor) are fully functional robot things now, not puppet items like the armor, or like Inferi might be interpreted to be. And the Nazgul are still painfully non-specific in their casting abilities and relative strength as magicians. They’re not getting the benefit of the auto-win at battle of wills that Sauron does (for what it’s worth).

WG, I’ve given a dozen examples of useful spells to use. (And not useful spells – but maybe Sauron will stop for a canary attack and get CDG’d!) You claim that none of these will have any effect whatsoever due to the nominal compromise in counterspellability of noncounterspellable spells.
I really think that in the end, we’re going to have to call this fight on account of incompatible magic systems.

I’ve greatly enjoyed this thread too. With the exception of our Saruman fanboy, this has been wonderful.

[Rowanomicon]

Sauron vs heros was no necessarily a fast battle, but Sauron would have to have exhibited super-human reflexes in it. Yes, other factors come into play, but if our heros were constantly chopping and stabbing Sauron faster than he could hope to react then things might have been described differently: "Sauron was hopelessly overwhelmed in combat, but the raw heat emanating from him was oppressive enough that it didn't matter."

Melee with three opponents is not small task, especially when they are three of the most powerful opponents the world has know. Fortunately, Sauron is no small force to be reckoned with.

The Magneto battle was in Uncanny X-Men, I believe. It should be within the first 250, probably closer to the end. Sorry I can't be more helpful with what comic it was it.
The reason he knew where Nightcrawler would go is that he could sense the disturbance on the electro-magnetic lines or something.
Hmm, perhaps Sauron would be able to sense the magic, since he is a being of magic.

I think, after witnessing Sauron's power, Voldemort would be very afraid of him. I agree that Voldy's biggest fear is final termination (or at least he thinks that's his biggest fear), but that does not mean that other fears would not also reduce him to a sniveling coward in Sauron's presence.
Also, I agree that he would not know of Sauron "torture you forever" gimmick right away. That is why I specified that such a fear would kick in if the battle lasted long enough for Voldemort to learn something of Sauron's MO. The Witch King could always give Voldy his "Do not stand between a Nazgul and his prey" speech; I hear he recites it every night in the mirror before he goes to bed, just hoping to get the chance to use it in battle the next day.

OK transfigured, and now animate, objects can still have the magic dispelled from them, leaving them as the inanimate objects they were before. The only way that this could not be the case is if they were transfigured into having bodies that function through mortal means: nerve impulses etc.
Just because the wizard is no longer concentrating on it does not mean that there is no longer magic there.

It seems to me that even though it has been pretty widely accepted that Sauron would not allow Voldy et co to cast in his presence (through force of will or sheer fear) we have been assuming they are anyway.
It has been show, beyond a reasonable doubt and by several people, that AK would have no effect on Sauron. I think that stunning would be similarly ineffective. Voldy's best bet might be that paralyzing spell (latinus psuedous). I'll have to find out how that works before I know if it will work on Sauron or not.

You yourself have said that anything is possible with HP magic, and I agree. One just has to find the recipe. Just because no one has found the counterspell recipe does not mean that spells are uncounterable.
I really don't see that the magic systems are so incompatible.
Yes, they are different, but not so incompatible that we can't deduce how they would affect each other.

You know, I think we have been going about this the wrong way (as far as the magic goes): we've been calling HP magic "magic" when it is quite clearly not.
I think that when comparing the two magic systems one is clearly magical, while the other is not.
Middle Earth magic is quite literally forcing your will onto reality and changing the rules.
Harry Potter magic, on the other hand, follows the rules; we just don't know how. A spell is a recipe; the ingredients are motions, vocalizations, thoughts, and whatever gene wizards have that muggles don't. The Kitchen-Aid is the wand.
I think we should treat Harry Potter magic as being actions within the realm of the laws of creation while Middle-Earth magic is the bending of those laws to your will.
Feel free to agree or disagree; I really want to work out this whole magic thing.

[Ossian]

The Witch King could always give Voldy his "Do not stand between a Nazgul and his prey" speech; I hear he recites it every night in the mirror before he goes to bed, just hoping to get the chance to use it in battle the next day.

This scene is priceless. Morgul like Travis Bickle in Taxi Driver ("are you talkin' to me?"), made me laugh!

[dehro]

the best answer to this thread has been given months ago by the giant himself..
I will say no more

[Ditto]

If you want to say that any kind of divine- (D&D Clerics) or fomula-based (D&D Wizards) or divine-formula-based (David Eddings) magic is not really magic, then I guess I’ll cop to that definition… (You could read LOTR as vaguer Still and Silent recipe spells, really.) But that means that everything these “so-called magics” do are simply a long list of exceptions to the generally accepted laws of the universe, and part of the natural order of things. This also means Sauron is completely powerless against the effects Voldemort can whistle up, neither being able to resist anything other than a mental effect nor able to dispel or disenchant on-going effects. It’s *strongly* in Sauron’s interest to keep HP magic as magic.
If, however, we label magic as anything that a creature (ignoring magic trees and mountain springs and such for the moment) does to willfully temporarily suspends these laws… then we start making sense again.

Counterspelling is not ‘doing’ something. It’s not causing something to happen. I can’t even think of how that would work mechanically, in a practical sense. You still have to cancel the spell at the point of creation – the wand – and it’s demonstrably feasible to disrupt the casting by (effectively) forcing the caster to make a concentration check due to injury or any number of other distractions. (Which work very well in a straight-forward duel, much like LOTR magic/counterspelling depends very much on the two wizards facing off directly, with caster 1 saying “I dare you to stop me!”) Preventing a spell from being cast (at all, that is, so not even at the theoretical stage where one might counterspell a spell) is always preferable to blocking a spell after the fact.
Snape can see into Potter’s mind and knows exactly what hex is coming his way, but doesn’t stop Potter from casting; he simply bats them away. There absolutely no reason a skilled Legillimens such as Snape, Dumbledore, or Voldemort would need to do so if they could simply paf their opponents’ spells away with a thought and a flick of the wrist.

AND in any event, that means that Sauron is welcome to try counterspelling once he picks up a wand and inherits a magical bloodline and researches this heretofore completely undiscovered branch of magic. I guess.

We’ve been over the idea that it’s not impossible within the realm of fantasy fiction that there exists some force which can stop uncounterable magic, just as there is hypothetically some force which can counter unstoppable magic. There’s no evidence either of those things exist in LOTR or HP. I’ve said there’s no such thing as counterspelling in HP not only because it’s not witnessed in any way, shape, or form in the entire series, but also because it’s completely inconsistent with the magic system’s rules as they’ve been *individually and separately* constructed by the scads of HP fans who have worked to codify the thing (including myself, obviously, with my d20 project). Your rationalization for why Sauron can block Potterverse magic is based on wild and completely unfounded conjecture. There’s simply no way to resolve this duel if we have to contend with the fact that Sauron’s can ignore spells and the fact that Voldemort’s spells cannot be blocked at the same time.

[Rowanomicon]

Harry Potter magic is magic in that the people without it do not understand it at all. It is however a very rule-based system of what will happen when you do *this*. Therefore it is not a list of exceptions to the laws of the universe but follows the laws quite closely.
One should note that the laws as muggles (we) understand them are not necessarily the true laws.
In a sense HP magic is magic, but it is very different than Middle Earth magic.
What I'm saying is HP magic follows the rules of creation while ME magic tells the rules to go away.

I don't know exactly what your point about counter-spelling was. Could you be a bit clearer please?

The Balrog "countered" Gandalf's spell after Gandalf "cast" it. This means that countering magic does not have to be done as it is being cast. You can call this dispelling if you like; that works fine for me.

The fact that those who would probably counter if they could do not supports the theory that HP magic works within the rules of creation and is not some outside force of the mind or soul.

The fact that spells in HP were never countered does not make them some unstoppable force. In fact we see that they are not unstoppable (they get blocked). A spell is a reaction. Just like someone standing 10 feet away cannot stop pure calcium from burning if I drop it in a pot of water, no one can stop the words "Avada Kedavra" and the special wand motion from creating the green death laser.

Sauron has the ability to stop both. He has the ability, through sheer force of will, to change the rules. This rules change can be something like "the door will not move when it is pushed" even though under normal circumstances for applied against the door would cause it to move. Therefore, once he witnesses a spell he will be able to prevent it's casting within what amounts to an anti-HP magic field (that will affect any and every spell he has thus far witnessed).

No I think that point requires quite a bit more countering than "it doesn't make sense" or "it's just wild and unfounded conjecture."

[Ditto]

I would draw the distinction between counterspelling and dispelling, yes. Counterspelling is "I now cast Time St... oh, you made the fizzle out on me. Crap." Dispelling is "I Hold your Portal, nyah! ...oh, you opened the portal."

I did not say HP magic is unstoppable in its effects and the limits of its scope or anything of the sort. I said only that you cannot prevent it from being cast. You can most definitely interfere with the result by deflecting a physical manifestation (a stunner bolt) or by applying an opposed effect (transfiguring dancing trees back to inert trees). In any case, the magic *happened*. LOTR magic, however, is clearly preventable. That's all wizards seem to do... think at each other until one can't hack it, and the magic doesn't happen.

When a point has zero documentable proof, that's conjecture. When the proffered logic serving in place of hard proof is 'It's not explicitly an impossibility', that's wild conjecture.
There's no evidence of anything remotely like counterspelling in HP. There's arguably (under your definition) not even dispelling - Alohomora doesn't dispel a Colloportus, it's merely a different spell used for unlocking things, which includes a Colloportus'd door. There are many examples of countercurses and antidotes - things that have opposite effects, not preventative ones.
It would be like the idea that HP magic affects Sauron no matter how hard he thinks about it, because Sauron can ONLY counter will-based magic (that's all we have evidence of!) and not 'neutral' magic - the magic imbued in an item, for instance. Or magic packaged into nominally physics-defying little bolts of light, like the ones Voldemort shoots.

Some spells in HP and D&D are very neatly 'Ignore this bit of physics for a sec, k?" like Fireball ('Make a rapidly expanding field of flame with no concussive pressure wave.') or Levitation ('Gravity doesn't count for much where I'm concerned'). How do you ignore Expelliarmus? You don't twitch convulsively, there's not reversed polarity in your armor. I say "Drop it!", and you drop it. Stunners don't have to overload your synapses like a taser, it just hits you and says "Off now." A full-body bind doesn't wrap you in ropes, it says "Don't move." Accio says "Come here." Depulso says "Go away!" What rules of physics are you breaking or amending? Defodio scoops away the ground. It's not there any more - not shoveled, gone. Is the counterattack "Be there"? Summoning endless piles of dirt to immediately fill the new hole beneath him? These methodical systems have too many elements not relatable to 'ignoring physics' to be dismissed as inherently inferior and dissimilar to LOTR's magic.

...which I why I think we're stuck.

[warty goblin]

Some spells in HP and D&D are very neatly 'Ignore this bit of physics for a sec, k?" like Fireball ('Make a rapidly expanding field of flame with no concussive pressure wave.') or Levitation ('Gravity doesn't count for much where I'm concerned'). How do you ignore Expelliarmus? You don't twitch convulsively, there's not reversed polarity in your armor. I say "Drop it!", and you drop it. Stunners don't have to overload your synapses like a taser, it just hits you and says "Off now." A full-body bind doesn't wrap you in ropes, it says "Don't move." Accio says "Come here." Depulso says "Go away!" What rules of physics are you breaking or amending? Defodio scoops away the ground. It's not there any more - not shoveled, gone. Is the counterattack "Be there"? Summoning endless piles of dirt to immediately fill the new hole beneath him? These methodical systems have too many elements not relatable to 'ignoring physics' to be dismissed as inherently inferior and dissimilar to LOTR's magic.

...which I why I think we're stuck.

Now that's conjecture. Stunning spells stun people, that's all we know. Any explanation of this is conjecture, the books just don't say. Defodio removes dirt from the premises yes, but the books don't tell us that it vanishes from the face of the universe or just goes someplace else. I think it just as fair to say that a spell like Defodio moves the dirt elsewhere as to say it causes it to disappear completely and irretrievably from the universe.

And actually the power to lock down and counter spells does exist in HP- the anti-disapparation jinx. There's precident for large areas where certain kinds of magic no longer work. I don't see why this can't be extended to other kinds of magic as well. Similarly there are counter/dispelling spells for magic in HP as well- finite incantato and the specific counter to that spell that hoists people up by their ankles for example. Magic can also interfere with other spells before they even have an effect - there's several examples of spells ricocheting off of each other.

Given that HP magic can cannonically be countered/dispelled/blocked and given Sauron's mastery of defensive magic, at this point I don't see how it can be maintained that Sauron wouldn't be able to lock down Voldemort's access to magic very effectively.

[Ditto]

I agree with you mostly, WG, but I think there's some confusion in how we both mean the terms...

Defodio poofing away dirt presumably works on the same principle as the Vanishing spell. That material is cast 'into nothing, which is to say, everything.' (A nice fruity Ravenclaw moment, everyone...) From a physics standpoint, you might view it as the atoms being completely broken apart and sent to do other things with their lives. This keeps all of the Vanishing stuff in the series in line with the second law of thermodynamics. Yay! Point is, it's the very edge of 'purely magical effects possibly explainable as bastardizations of physics', which Sauron can allegedly suit to his will. Because he's a rocket scientist now, too, apparently. I understand he was around at the dawn of time, but being old doesn't automatically mean you know How Stuff Works.

When jets of light bounce off of each other, the magic has already happened! The magic was creating the flashy thing that turns into boils when it hits; what happens after it's launched is a separate story. The magic happened and is done with. All HP magic happens (effectively) at the wandtip.

The power to block and lock-down spells absolutely exists. There are specific spells designed to block or counteract other specific spells. There's even things like Protego and Finite Incantatem which cover a range of things. I'm not saying you can't *deal* with HP magic. (Finite would technically be a dispel, which fits the mold fine even when read as a specific anti- sort of spell.) Sauron's main touted ability is this 'counterspelling' business - when Wizard A attempts to change the world with his brain, Sauron outthinks him into submission and doesn't let him.
In HP, there is no such thing. Wizards do not apply their willpower directly to the world in order to create their magic's results, therefore there is no opportunity for Sauron to shut them down. *That* is why people are saying Sauron is untouchable. Point is, there's no such thing as a blanket "No." spell that lets you stop the other guy from casting at all.

"Blocking Voldemort's access to magic" doesn't make sense, either - this implies that magic is a wholly external phenomenon which can be tapped and channeled (how I see D&D and HP to some extent); in LOTR, however, magic only exists in the mind (so to speak) - a wholly different, internal process. Their wills are Just That Strong that they can make the world change. That's the fundamental difference between the two systems that prevents this Sauron-based anti-magic zone from jiving with Voldemort's instantaneous magic toolkit.

[turkishproverb]

From a physics standpoint, you might view it as the atoms being completely broken apart and sent to do other things with their lives.

COngrats, you earned a place in my sig.

[warty goblin]

Dispelling, Counterspelling, blocking, banishing, countering, turning spells into voles with delusions of grandeur and tophats, its all semantics (well, maybe not that last one).

Voldemort relies on magic. Sauron is very good at defending himself against magic, and at interfering with magic in general. Hence Sauron can defend himself from, and interfere with, Voldemort's magic. I really don't see how its more complicated than that. Its not even like I feel that this gives Sauron an unreasonable advantage- by assuming that he can counter HP spells I'm also assuming that HP magic can counter his. Given Sauron's ability to crush the minds of mortals who dare oppose him, I feel this might actually be in Voldemort's favor. At least this way he can still run.

I agree that the Defodio spell likely vanishes target plot of soil, but its still a conjecture and should be labeled as such.

And isn't denial of access to magic exactly what the Anti-Apperation jinx does? Or is it some sort of blanket dispell/counter?

[Executor]

In LOTR, however, magic only exists in the mind (so to speak) - a wholly different, internal process. Their wills are Just That Strong that they can make the world change. That's the fundamental difference between the two systems that prevents this Sauron-based anti-magic zone from jiving with Voldemort's instantaneous magic toolkit.

But that's just why Voldie won't be doing any magic around Sauron. Sauron wills it that Voldemort can't cast spells, therefore it is so. LOTR magic is pretty much intimidating the Universe into adjusting it's rules according to the mage. If Sauron doesn't want Voldemort casting spells, Voldemort won't. Similar to how the Gandalf wanted the door to close, therefore it remained sealed 'till the Balrog wanted it to open, then you get the whole "battle of wills" you see and hear mentioned so much about in Middle-earth literature. Unless Voldemort can overpower Sauron's will, which he can't, he won't be able to do anything magical, which is bad. And unless he can defeat Sauron in good ol' fashioned hand-to-hand, which he can't, then Voldemort is boned. Boned like a fish.

[Rowanomicon]

HP magic is "do this and that will happen."

Sauron has the ability to change the laws of creation so that "doing this" no longer makes "that" happen.

Done.

[dehro]

Point is, it's the very edge of 'purely magical effects possibly explainable as bastardizations of physics', which Sauron can allegedly suit to his will. Because he's a rocket scientist now, too, apparently. I understand he was around at the dawn of time, but being old doesn't automatically mean you know How Stuff Works.

Small note: dunno about rocket science, but Sauron wasn't merely hanging around from the beginning of time...he was one of the major players in the creation of stuff...(Melkor singlehandedly changed the "tune" through which Arda was created, to his liking..and Sauron was with him all along) so yes..I guess he had a pretty good grasp on how things came to be..and thus were regulated..since he was part of the project team.

[Ossian]

Small note: dunno about rocket science, but Sauron wasn't merely hanging around from the beginning of time...he was one of the major players in the creation of stuff...(Melkor singlehandedly changed the "tune" through which Arda was created, to his liking..and Sauron was with him all along) so yes..I guess he had a pretty good grasp on how things came to be..and thus were regulated..since he was part of the project team.

I seem to recall that sauron, as a Good maia of Aule (aka "The Maker of things") wasm involved with other light spirits since the beginning, while Melkor's cporruption was also taking place. He joined the Dark Enemy onbly at some later stage. Still, no doubt he was in the "designers' team" from square 1. We can almost say that they "invented" physics (granted the supervision of Eru). Do not forget that Sauron also spent a good many centuries in Ost In Edhil, the Fortress of the Eldar in Eregion. In the Goldsmith Corporation (how else can youtranslate Gwaith I Mirdain) he studied side by side with the best smiths of Middle Earth, guys like Celebrimbor and other escapees from the Beleriand. They exchanged a good deal of secrets and many of those elves had also been among the firstborn that fled from the undying lands, and thus a lot more into the very essence of matter and creation. They learned a lot thanks to Sauron divine nature, but it was Sauron who gained the most by probing their minds and stealing a good many secrets of magic, metallurgy and craftsmanship of cold-forge metal casting, star-iron forging and so on.

When he thought he was done with them, he just abandoned them and went to mount Doom, as he still had a brutal side to him, and thought that to make a really badass ruling ring you should forge it waist deep in the smoldering lava. He was so smart that he even left "trojan horses" in all the Other rings, thus enabling him to control them through the one. So, yeah, S. isn't a rocket scientist, but he's definitely a physic of solid state matter and a materials' engineer ((C) of countless indestructible alloys)

O.

[Ossian]

Small note: dunno about rocket science, but Sauron wasn't merely hanging around from the beginning of time...he was one of the major players in the creation of stuff...(Melkor singlehandedly changed the "tune" through which Arda was created, to his liking..and Sauron was with him all along) so yes..I guess he had a pretty good grasp on how things came to be..and thus were regulated..since he was part of the project team.

I seem to recall that sauron, as a Good maia of Aule (aka "The Maker of things") was involved with other light spirits since the beginning, while Melkor's corruption was also taking place. He joined the Dark Enemy only at some later stage.
Still, no doubt he was in the "designers' team" from square 1. We can almost say that they "invented" physics (granted the supervision of Eru).
Do not forget that Sauron also spent a good many centuries in Ost In Edhil, the Fortress of the Eldar in Eregion. In the Goldsmiths' Corporation (how else can youtranslate Gwaith I Mirdain) he studied side by side with the best smiths of Middle Earth, guys like Celebrimbor and other escapees from the Beleriand. They exchanged a good deal of secrets and many of those elves had also been among the firstborn that fled from the undying lands, and thus a lot more into the very essence of matter and creation. They learned a lot thanks to Sauron divine nature, but it was Sauron who gained the most by probing their minds and stealing a good many secrets of magic, metallurgy and craftsmanship of cold-forge metal casting, star-iron forging and so on.

When he thought he was done with them, he just abandoned them and went to mount Doom, as he still had a brutal side to him, and thought that if he had to make a really badass ruling ring he should forge it waist-deep in the smoldering lava (If only he could have podcasted that on the palantir-tube channel, the free people would have surrendered immediately). He was so smart that he even left "trojan horses" in all the Other rings, thus enabling him to control them through the one. So, yeah, S. isn't a rocket scientist, but he's definitely a physic of solid state matter and a materials' engineer ((C) of countless indestructible alloys)

O.

[Ditto]

Rowan – HP magic is not an external force any more? I want to be clear about which side you’re taking on that issue.

My justification for the Defodio spell is based on precedent from the books, and works from the established rules of spells that make stuff disappear. That’s the normal, useful kind of conjecture.

I do think that allow Sauron to completely ignore anything Voldemort does actually grants him a rather significant advantage… Sauron cannot describe things that he would like not to happen in general terms and have it be so in absolute terms. He has to aim his efforts (not even directionally speaking, but with at least specific intent). Otherwise, he could just say “I will it that no one can attack me!” or “I will it that wherever Voldemort is, whenever he tries it, he cannot cast Avada Kedavra, despite my complete ignorance of HP magic!” (Or how about “I will it that the One Ring is returned to me forthwith!”) If HP magic is “Do this” and This happens, and Sauron wants “Doing This does not make That happen”, he has to know what both This and That are, which he does not. Even IF that would grant him immunity from the spell after the second or third casting (He’s adapting! Modulate the phaser frequencies!), he’s still getting hit two or three times by that spell. IF. Otherwise Sauron just Wins at Life. Of the universe. Completely. Ever. (Which he does not.)

An anti-disapparation jinx does not block access to magic, it counters a specific effect. They are not explicitly prevented from casting other magic, but Dumbledore presumably took other precautions against that. (Taking their wands away, PTing them, being placed under guard, whatever.) The jinx was the relevant part, ‘cuz keeping the evidence around is key.

[Deadmeat.GW]

Hum, small question...are you really saying that a terror effect that covers a WHOLE city is NOT going to affect Voldemort?

Hum, why?

Has he shown to be immune to fear or doubt somewhere in the books?

I remember distinctly that he was getting worried and more then worried by HP to the point of getting another persons wand to tackle HP.

He may not have been scared witless but he was not immune at all to this.

Merely being on the same battlefield he should have severe trouble.

Once more, did you give a quote from the books or the films where Voldemort is immune to fear or doubt?
You are SERIOUSLY telling us that Voldemort is NOT afraid of dying and that the Horcruxes are just a gimmick?

And fear of something specific...I call utter <censured> here.
A lot of the time fear is exactly what happens when you DON'T know what is going on.

You can be scared witless by something or somebody, someplace, new experiences, reliving things, lack of information, lack of something happening, overflow of something happening,...

Being insane does not constitute a barrier that stops fear or terror, it may however allow you to act in some fashion (or even almost completely in your 'normal' fashion) but it is not a guarantee.

Otherwise any insane person would be recruited for the military, heck, completely fearless people that are pretty much disposable...
Just drop them somewhere and stand back.

People who are insane can still be terrified by things, living at a remove of what we call normal society shields you to some extend of things around you but it does not remove you completely from said situation.

And if people who are brave enough to tackle dragons, balrogs and lesser demons are too terrified to even act you REALLY ought to tell people why you think a person that has been shown in the books as being capable of getting worried or being skittish (not quite scared but quite a bit closer to fear then Voldemort would like to admit) would be less likely then them, heroes from an epic age, to resist the mere terror causing presence Sauron can provide.

And no, it is an area of effect thing so simply standing behind him instead due to apparating is not going to help you.