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  1. - Top - End - #991
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    Default Re: Sauron vs Voldemort

    Fine then, HP Magic is not counterspellable. However, it is wand-sensitive. Since the Witch-king, who could be a dark lord in his own right, showed the ability to break weapons at a range (across a wide river), I think it's safe to assume that Sauron could break Voldie's wand at a distance. With no wand, Voldemort is royally screwed.

    Then of course, there's always the matter of Sauron being a mind-flayer of Cthulhu-esque skill. He would break Voldemort's mind as soon as he saw him as a threat. And Sauron has his own blocking spells as well. Afterall, he's survived direct magical assaults from the gods not once but twice (War of Wrath, Fall of Numenor)

    So, I believe we've concluded that Voldemort is boned. Between being mentally flayed and having his wand broken AND being tossed around like ragdoll, he's screwed. Voldemort is physically, mentally and magically inferior to Sauron in every way.

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    Default Re: Sauron vs Voldemort

    Quote Originally Posted by Ditto View Post
    I still say the explicitly fear-based aura of the Nazgul will be significantly weaker if not totally ineffective.
    Totally ineffective is completely out of the question. I would really have (ad have already had) trouble taking such a claim seriously. I agree that Voldemort, being somewhat above your average person, would possibly be more able to deal with the fear than most ordinary people (ie. he would not necessarily pee his pants and curl up into the fetal position crying for his mommy).
    I definitely think that the fear of even one Nazgul (and it increases exponentially as there are more in one spot) would be debilitating in some way, shape, or form. I hope that we can agree on that much. Now, assume we can agree on that much, we just have to figure out to what degree it would debilitate him. I think it would, at least, be cause for pause (and doubt) and pause can possibly be quite deadly when in combat (especially with a Nazgul). At least I think it would hurt Voldemort's morale (and do more to the average Death Eater) which would (in D&D terms) incur a penalty (again we'd have to figure out just how debilitating it would be).

    Quote Originally Posted by Ditto View Post
    Does Sauron rip the magic away or see through it? It’s the difference between ‘Will Save if interacted with to disbelieve’ and outright dispelling.
    Sorry, I'm not sure I quite understand the question clearly.
    I am of the opinion that Sauron could change the laws of the universe to prevent the use of HP magic. Since we cannot agree on that and neither of us seem to believe the other's evidence and logic enough to sway our opinion we should probably more on to something else the battle can probably be resolved without actually dealing with that specific detail.

    I think it's fair to say that Sauron could set up an anti-magic "wall" to block HP spells. In essence he would be changing the laws of the universe to inhibit the spells' ability to travel.
    Given this, he could create a "bubble" around Voldemort that spells cannot get out of. Voldemort could, or course, apparate out of said bubble (once he realised it existed and was a bubble, rather than a AMF), but we've already established that it would not take Sauron long (less than a second) to make visual contact with Voldy's new location (assuming Voldy is apparating within line of sight). So, I would say, given a full second Sauron could put Voldy back in his bubble. This puts Voldy at a maximum (and he'd have to get used to the new tactic first) of one spell per apparation (and he wouldn't even get that the first few times). Again, it is questionable that he would survive long enough to adapt to this new strategy.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ditto View Post
    Further, Sauron is not fundamentally immune to magic. He’s adept at countering, and failing that, blocking, direct magical assaults. Voldemort’s (and any wizards’) MO is similarly “Move for the big block and dodge away”. Sauron just goes for the big block-stop from the start. Maiar are not golems. He still has to actually block something to avoid its effect, and in order to do such he has to be aware of an attack.
    While it is true that Maiar are not golems (I'll concede that point...I guess) Sauron would still be immune to some spell effects. That wouldn't be because of any inherent immunity to HP magic, but instead to the effects they have.
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    Default Re: Sauron vs Voldemort

    Bear in mind Ditto, even if we accept that Voldemort is strong willed enough to resists the most harmful effects of the Nazgul's magic, the fact that he death eaters can't will destroy him. If his death eaters made one mistake in this hit and run tatics, they are screwed. They will make mistakes with the nazgul flying around. If they make a mistake or even pause, the WK will snap their wand. Once snapped, they will be ether killed or captured. If Sauron can convince at least half a dozen death eaters to work for him, he can effectivlly counter any direct voldemort attack, the death eaters and dementors will hold him off, he will finish Voldemort
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  4. - Top - End - #994
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    Sauron isn't a mindcrusher. Still. The presence is one thing, but he cannot use his farseein' Eye and paf your brain.

    It's fun that you're suddenly okay with Voldemort having a strong will, so long as the end result is 'but the fear aura still wins'... I never understood the argument that Voldemort's split his soul into pieces, therefore he has no mental fortitude. I'd think tooling around and planning your rebirth and takeover of the British wizarding world when you're just-this-side of dead gets you brownie points on the 'keeps-his-spoon' together meter.
    There is no reason to equate Soul with Force of Personality with Resisting the urge to hurt underlings because it's funny.
    Gil-Galad & co. are allowed to withstand the fear aura and Sauron's presence... why? It can't be plot, that's not satisfying.
    It's because they're the biggest damn heroes this side of godhood, that's why. Theirs are powers not to be trifled with. They are without peers in the ranks of men and elves.
    Exactly. The same. As Voldemort.
    You say Sauron and Voldemort are in comlpletely different leagues as far as raw power goes, which is fine. But when you match him up against the power of mortals, and he (and they) are simply as good as it gets, the end. If anyone can stand before Sauron, it's them (all of them). If they did, then he can. (Hint: They did.)

    It does not make sense to define Sauron's/LOTR's magic as rewriting the laws of the universe - most importantly because the effects are not permanent. Like every other system of magic, there is a based set of How Things Work, and magic bends them. Severely; to the breaking point, even; but when all is said and done, there exists such a thing as the status quo. If Sauron can rewrite existence, then why doesn't he lobotomize all men? Or just a few choice ones? Or turn all stone to sand and make Minas Tirith a giant dune? While 'rewriting the universe' will always be an acceptable definition of 'How did (impossible thing) happen?', there simply isn't evidence in the book consistent with this level of raw universe creating power.

    Sauron is the only heavy hitter left at the time of the Trilogy, and hasn't up-ended the world. He sent *orcs*. In the War of the Last Alliance, he couldn't squish Gil-Galad because it would have taken *time*? Well rewrite time, then! Or just start when he's far away... and isn't Mount Doom supposed to supress non-Sauron magic? That means that since magic (and resistance) is will-based, no one should have any defence against Sauron's mindcrushing, since magic = will.

    Side-ish not: I reread the entry on Apparating. The pop/crack commonly accompanying apparition is a sign of amateur or incautious travel. (You definitely see the twins in HP5 terrorizing the house with the sudden noises everywhere.) "It is sometimes accompanied by a distinctive cracking or popping sound, though this is associated with ineptitude rather than success; the most skilled magicians can Apparate "so suddenly and silently" that they seem to have "popped out of the ground" (Dumbledore)."

    EE - Remember when he remained at large for 30 years? Remember how he fought the top 3 witches and wizards in the series single-handedly? Suborning wizards does not end Voldemort's game.

    I think it's fair to say that Sauron could set up an anti-magic "wall" to block HP spells.
    ...I'm glad? I think it's fair to say HP spells cannot by AMF'd, period. (And I have specific evidence on my fair claim.) We have different definitions of fair, it seems. That, or different definitions of magic. But we can't agree on that either.
    Last edited by Ditto; 2007-11-20 at 10:25 PM.
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  5. - Top - End - #995
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ditto View Post
    Sauron isn't a mindcrusher. Still. The presence is one thing, but he cannot use his farseein' Eye and paf your brain.

    It's fun that you're suddenly okay with Voldemort having a strong will, so long as the end result is 'but the fear aura still wins'... I never understood the argument that Voldemort's split his soul into pieces, therefore he has no mental fortitude. I'd think tooling around and planning your rebirth and takeover of the British wizarding world when you're just-this-side of dead gets you brownie points on the 'keeps-his-spoon' together meter.
    There is no reason to equate Soul with Force of Personality with Resisting the urge to hurt underlings because it's funny.
    Gil-Galad & co. are allowed to withstand the fear aura and Sauron's presence... why? It can't be plot, that's not satisfying.
    It's because they're the biggest damn heroes this side of godhood, that's why. Theirs are powers not to be trifled with. They are without peers in the ranks of men and elves.
    Exactly. The same. As Voldemort.

    Voldemort is weak willed. He lost a battle of will, when everything was going his way, to a fourteen year old. A fourteen year old who also cannonically had trouble controling his emotions and with mental combat in general. There, cannonical evidence of his weak will. To my knowledge, neither Sauron nor those who ever opposed him with any degree of success ever lost a battle of wills with a fourteen year old.

    And those that opposed Sauron were in an entirely different league than Voldemort. Luthien is the offspring of a demi-goddess and one of the most powerful elves, is one of the most beautiful (aka powerful) creatures ever to walk the earth, and she fainted in the mere presense of Sauron. Bear in mind that she later managed to not only withstand Morgoth, but to actually cast a spell on him. To me this says strong willpower. Gil-galad was the third or fourth most powerful elf ever to live (Feanor and Fingolfin are definately above him, and I feel like I'm forgetting somebody else). Elendil was at least several hundred years old, and in every sense of the word superhuman, as was Isildur. Two of those three died, and the last one was corrupted fighting Sauron. Voldemort is a human with an aptitude for magic and a fear of the dark, the unknown, and death- a fear that dictates almost every action he ever takes.

    Given your constant insistance on the Willpower aspect of LOTR magic (an aspect I think your overplay to some degree) Ditto, and the fact that it can cannonically be demonstrated that, for whatever reason, Voldemort can't win against a fourteen year old boy, surrounded by his own allies, I dont' see how he has a chance against Sauron's magic. You admit that Sauron can deflect single target spells, which seem to be Voldemort's prefered method of attack, and pretty much what he always opens with. By the time he realizes that AK doesn't work, he'll be dead, or gibbering with terror, then dead.

  6. - Top - End - #996
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    Default Re: Sauron vs Voldemort

    No, Gil-Galad and Elendil are not the same as Voldemort. Gil-Galad was the last High King of the Noldor, and one of their greatest. Such was the sorrow of his passing that the Noldor-in-Exile would never again appoint a king. He was also the greatest hand-to-hand fighter of the age, wielded Aeglos, a spear bound by fate to be Sauron's downfall AND was protected by Vilya, greatest of The Three. Elendil was reportedly eight feet tall and was a Numenorean of the old kindred. He lived in Numenor before it's fall, as close to the Undying Lands as any Man could be, and was over 320 years old at the time of his death. His sword, Narsil, was an artifact of the ELder Days, forged by Telchar, greatest of all Dwarven smiths. Voldemort is a thin, grey, emanciated man whose only real power lies in terror. Yeah, he can cast a curse which kills one person. So can every other wizard, given the right motivation. Voldemort's real power is in the fact that he can scare so many wizards into serving him, and has no qualms about using the Unforgivable Curses. And I daresay Middle-earth has worse horrors than Voldemort. Like, say, Balrogs.

    Gil-Galad and Elendil =/= Voldemort

    We only refer to LOTR magic as rewriting the laws of the universe because Tolkien gives no solid explanation, but makes many references to strength of will. So we've concluded that LOTR Magic is mind over matter sort of stuff. Sauron can't make big changes like turn Minas Tirith into a sanddune because he's only a Maiar. A demigod. One of the Valar could turn Minas Tirith to dust, but Sauron isn't one of them. He can, however, break people's minds, and rewrite the laws of the universe so that impossible buildings like the Black Gate and Barad-dur stand strong. Aragorn had a lengthy mental battle with Sauron over control of the palantir, it's highly likely that he would've been reduced to a small, blithering wreck if Sauron had won. When Pippin contacted Sauron through the palantir, the Dark Lord wasn't even using a fraction of his will and he put the hobbit into a state of shock. It's pretty safe to say that Sauron can mind-flay (or 'break' as Tolkien would put it) plenty of people.

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    Default Re: Sauron vs Voldemort

    who killed Sauron

    1. Gil-ad is one of the most powerful elves in existence, he has been alive at least a little before the first age (Elrond describes him as older than himself.) and so he has at least a few hundred thousand years to train into becoming a badass fighter. Now bear in mind that in the world of LOTRS bloodline helps greatly in badass skills, and Gil-ad came from the greatest blood line in the world period, he is also from the most powerful elf breeds, to the extent that Galdreial nothing. He is protected by a great ring, and he wields a super powered magical anti evil spear, along withelven armor, shield, and helm (according to the poem about him at least) as well as being describeds as amazing at fighter even by his imortal elven brethrin. Then Elendil, eight feet tall from the greatest line of kings among the human kindoms, with from the greatest breed of humans ever. He wields basiclly the most powerful sword ever, and i knows to be a super human warrior after at least 320 years of training.
    Isildur is the second most epic human, who has been around for at least a 150 years, decked in kingly armor, and is on par with his dad.

    And bear in mind, Glofendal, Ciran, and Elrond were there to, then just didn't do very much, the first two being evles who remember coming over from the undying lands (thus having five ages of stars, and two ages of sun to train with super elvish powers), Ciran has an elven ring, and Elrond is an extremly powerful half elf from the first age with a magic sword (does he have an elvish ring, or is that later). All of the top three elves said to be "Very weary" from this battle, so they most likely had to fight a very nasty fight. And even then, Sauron was still able to corrupt Isildur and wasn't completely killed.


    So out of a 6 vs. One fight, the two most powerful are killed, the greatest sword ever is destroyed, and the last guy is burned, before he is killed.
    so he does not go down easy
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    The 3rd topmost badass elf must have been Finrod Felagund, who engaged on the quest for the silmarils, and met his demise in the pits of Sauron on the Island of Werewolves. Notable achievements: a spellsong contest against Sauron, where the 2 battled with the magic of mind-probing and self disguise, as he was trying to keep the magic orcish disguise cast on himself, Beren and Luthien (that was like the "Superball" of bardic enchanted music, i mean, he disguised LUTHIEN as an orc...make me believe that!).
    Felagund was like a million dollars then, but he still lost, almost mind flayed. Later, when the wolves were approaching to eat them alive, as he was already starved and wounded, he BROKE the chains with his bare hands and wrestled with 1st age bloodthirsty wolves under the command of Sauron to buy some time for Beren and Luthien. While doing that (as we have seen with Kazumi and Daigo in OOTS), is an automatic death sentence, it is still a remarkable achievement.

    And yep, Narsil was among the most powerful blades ever. At least, among those that did not backbite its wielder. 2 palms above were the star iron blades, Anguiriel and Anglachel/Gurthang, and possibly Aranruth, the sword of Elu Thingol, which later on became "THE" sword of the Kings of Numenor, and was lost "when the oceans drank the Island" (nod at Conan).

    O.
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  9. - Top - End - #999
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    Greatest heros of their time in Middle Earth = second greatest wizard of his time in HP...hmm, something seems amiss here.
    Relative greatness inside one's own circle does not mean anything about relative greatness when compared to someone outside that circle. What you said is akin to saying that the most powerful slug is an equal combatant to the most powerful human. I didn't use those examples to specifically represent anyone, just to point out that being the most powerful (or second most in Voldy's case) in a specific group (or universe) does not mean you are on par with the post powerful being from another specific group.

    Heck, even if it did there were more than one of them weren't there? (Hint: your point is moot)

    Executor already explained some of the LOTR magic system to you, but I'll also say this: Sauron needs to be within a certain range and no, things are not permanent, when the will that is bending the rules is removed the rules snap back into shape.

    Universe creating power and rules bending/changing power are very different thing. For instance saying "this rule no longer applies" is much simpler than writing up every single rule that forms the universe. Sauron, however, got to see the list of rules being written up (keep in mind this is all figurative) and he does have the power to bend or break those rules better than anyone else barring only the gods and even they (barring Eru) seem to only be marginally above him as he has successfully blocked their power before.

    What does remainng at large for 30 years have to do with anything? I thought each combatant only had to be reduced in power to the point of ineffectiveness in combat once for the purposes of this thread (a big gimp to Sauron, but whatever).

    Wait a minute on the "can't be AMF'd" thing. Are you saying there's no way to block HP spell? If you are then you are wrong and there is a lot of evidence against you. In fact there is even evidence that shows that HP spells can be stopped before they are cast or prevented all together (somehow this isn't enough for you...).

    We may very well have different definitions of magic (I choose to seek an explanation while you seem to think that it needs no explanation for it is all powerful... except when that's inconvenient), but that is immaterial.

    I'm really not too sure what exactly your counter to my point is; as far I can tell it's "nu-uh that aint fair" which doesn't really hold any clout in a real debate.

    I guess you're saying that HP spells do not exist on the physical realm at all and therefore cannot be affected by anything. It's too bad that they can be deflected by physical objects quite easily.
    Perhaps you're saying that they cannot be magically stopped, blocked, or hindered in any way. It's too bad there's a spell that blocks spells. It's also too bad that there's and anti-apparating field around Hogwarts. heck, it even too bad that Snape stopped Harry's casting before it was finished.

    I'd love to counter you point, I really would, but it seems to me that you don't have one.

    Here's mine: Sauron inhibits Voldemort's ability to cast. Whether this means bending the rules of the universe to disallow HP magic, physically and/or magically blocking the spells, being immune to the spells, creating conditions under which Voldemort cannot cast through physical or mental anguish, or simply telling him no and pimp slapping him across the face I don't care.

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  10. - Top - End - #1000
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    Voldemort is afraid of the dark now?

    Voldemort lost because of the power of looooove. Same reason he couldn’t keep Harry possessed. Turns out in HP, there’s something more important than will. (Not that will is important in HP magic, but since everyone else likes it so much.) Does the fact that he’s the most accomplished Legillmens and Occlumens in ever count for nothing? Also, losing to the guy destined to defeat you doesn’t count for nearly as much as… y’know, the other stuff. And it still has nothing to do with his soul being split.

    Voldemort’s only power is terrorizing people? I know anyone can cast AK, but the fact that magic is available to everyone in HP doesn’t mean it’s any less potent. Working from the same toolkit puts a lot of weight on how you use it, and apparently he’s pretty good with it. He’s powerfully magical in so many other areas that are being ignored. He found a way to escape death.
    He also wielded an artifact.
    He is the most powerful mortal – and more, technically – in the Potterverse. I know you that ‘Most Powerful here’ does not necessarily equal ‘Most Powerful there’, but you keep knocking the peg for what Voldemort can be compared to lower and lower. What is he, then, on par with Gimli? The most powerful dwarven force of comic relief in Middle Earth? Does it really hurt *so* much to admit that Voldemort is terrifically gifted in his own right?
    Even if it took 6 of them to take down Sauron, and Voldemort’s the equal of one of them, then that’s 1/6 the power of Sauron. Whereas y’all are dismissing him as completely inconsequential… he might as well be Boromir, it seems. Sauron couldn’t care less about the guy who can tear through his armies and elude capture indefinitely and ::all other wizarding powers which are being completely ignored and discounted::. Seriously?
    If Gil-Galad was able to beat Sauron only in this case because he had the superhelmet, superspear, and superring, he doesn’t sound nearly as impressive on his own. Not unimpressive, of course, but less than he’s been made out to be.

    WG, I never stressed the important of will in LOTR magic, nor did I even come up with it. That’s coming from you. (Not you specifically, but y’all, at least.) Rowan’s the one claiming folks reshape the universe with their mind, not me.

    “The Dark Lord wasn't even using a fraction of his will…” Did the book say that? Don’t make assumptions about Sauron’s power level where they’re not stated. It may have taken more strength than a negligible fraction, even if it wasn’t full power. Apparently hobbits are resistant to magic – Frodo mocks the Nazgul, and the fear aura that could have reduced him or any of his friends to a gibbering wreck, which can reach across an entire city, couldn’t cripple any of them while they ran on foot to the ford. Aragorn is significantly weaker than the heroes of yore, but he can hold his own against Sauron and walk away unfazed. Power in LOTR is surprisingly relative. That, or plot-convenient, which isn’t an acceptable answer in this debate.

    Remaining at large isn’t relevant to this debate, like many things Voldemort gets called on, so it’s both erroneous *and* incorrect. I was correcting EE’s statement that Voldemort will be easy to catch for Sauron, and beyond that, for wizards. He’s not.

    Sauron needs to be within a certain range? But you’ve said his range is hundreds of miles! He was dueling with Gandalf at the Black Gate and beyond, was he not? If he wanted to march straight to the gates of Minas Tirith, who could stop him? (Right?) So his powers are, in fact, based on bending and breaking but not rewriting? They snap back into place? You’ve changed the definition of the magic system again, Rowan.

    “No AMF” =/= “No blocking HP spells”. I never said that it was. (Still.) You can deflect it or dodge it or in some other way ‘physically’ block it, but you cannot cause HP magic to cease to be. The one and only point of evidence you claim is the anti-apparating jinx, whereas I have shown that no wizard has ever stopped magic from happening in combat, but further explained in detail how it is completely inconsistent with the magic system as seen throughout the entire series. Snape interrupted the casting, which is not the same as dampening his powers. I wrote that bit in prose above, remember? That would be “Harry screamed Crucio! at Snape, but nothing happened. Though he had completed the spell, no magic came forth from his wand.” Which is not what happened. The anti-apparating jinx still does not qualify as anti-magic any more than casting Silencio does. It is an impediment, which can be removed in exactly the same way the anti-apparation field inside the Hogwarts grounds can. The fact that the Death Eaters were deprived of their wands (a huge assumption, I know); they would have been able to elude this had they possessed their full magical faculties.

    Sauron may be immune to some personal target spells. His Cthulhu-field would render Voldemort unable to fight. (Unless he really wanted to, it seems.) He can block those (more or less physically, that is.). He cannot prevent Voldemort from casting spells mentally because it is 1) Not possible in the first place, and 2) There is no contest of wills to be had.He cannot cause magic to cease to be, and if he *could*, that would negate his own power for that same time and space.
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    Default Re: Sauron vs Voldemort

    Well, Aragorn is described as the greatest king since Elendil, so he's a pretty epic badass by himself. He's also got the whole bloodline thing working for him, which is a big thing in LOTR, and Sauron was also signifigantly weakened. He was in physical form, yes, but was estranged from the majority of his power, which was stored in the Ring. Also, dark lords in LOTR seem to weaken as they create or corrupt more things. Morgoth started as powerful enough to duel all the other Vala at once, contend with the will of Illuvatar and take any shape he fancied. By the time he had created orcs, trolls, dragons, balrogs and two mountain fortresses, he was reduced to a single, scarred body.

    Sauron would've been weakened by the creation of the Black Gate and Barad-dur, and so he put a lot of his power into the Ring to preserve it. Unfortunately, he didn't count on the badassery of Elendil and Gil-Galad, the Middle-Earth equivalents of Chuck Norris and Bruce Lee.

    Oh, Voldemort is more noticeable than Boromir, yes, but is still relatively insignifigant as compared to Sauron. Voldie has a couple dozen 'loyal' servants, a spell that kills one person at a time, and can be defeated by a 17-year old inexperienced, untrained boy. Hell, Frodo was in his 50s and was fluent in Elvish when he set out on the Ring Quest.

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    Default Re: Sauron vs Voldemort

    Here's the thing about Voldemort's will. We are never given an example of it being strong, he can't win the linked wands thing in Book 4, he can't figure out that Snape is lying to him (didn't you say he's the worl'ds most accomplished occlumense and ligimense? That's not a really impressive track record for mental magic, come to think of it, where in the books does it say that anyway?). Heck, in Book 7 he can't even keep Harry out of his head, despite the fact that he managed it earlier. Snape didn't even have Boy of Destiny...(cymbols) shields or anything, but he still managed to lie to Voldemort for years and was never caught. Heck, Voldemort's not even the greatest wizard ever, he consistantly performs worse than Dumbledore, and is only described as "the greatest dark wizard in a century". Again, not the greatest ever everywhere character that Ditto makes out. Since I can't think of an example of him ever beating another character in mental combat, I am forced to conclude that Voldemort does not have a particularly strong will. Hence the sheer terror of Sauron's presence will cause him to curl up into a ball and cry for mommy.

    And yes, he is afraid of the dark, it says so right in book 6, during the lake episode with a disturbing similarity to the pool under the Tower of High Sorcery in Palanthas from Dragonlance Chronicles.

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    First of all I'd like to point out an inconstancy in your post, Ditto:
    Apparently we are not allowed to use any losses to Harry Potter (an inexperience boy) to conclude anything about Voldemort's power level because he was destined to lose to Harry (by the way I agree with you about what Voldemort should have been, it just seems that you think he actually was), but we must use the example of Aragorn (the greatest human since Elendil, literally an age) surviving palantir contact with Sauron as a main source of concluding Sauron's power.

    I don't remember it being stated that Voldy was the greatest Legillmens and Occlumens. If you back this up with a quote or even some examples then I'll gladly accept it (though examples would only really prove that he was good, not the greatest).

    I don't understand why you need to make Voldy equivalent to anyone. Why not just measure his actual power against Sauron's?

    Also, I don't know how many times we'll have to tell you: Voldemort is the second most powerful wizard at the time of the series and somewhere further down the list in ever. It is explicitly stated that Dumbledore is greater (and that Voldy fears Dumbledore). I'd love to find the quotes, but I don't have my Potter books with me.

    Ditto, actually you do talk about will quite a bit. You were, in fact, the one who tried to pigeonhole LOTR magic into Wis based in D&D terms. What I claim about LOTR magic is that it is much less specific than HP magic. It is not specific spells. It is more like choose what you want to do, anything at all, then see if you are powerful enough to do it. Sauron is the most powerful being in Middle Earth during the trilogy and definitely up there since the beginning of time.

    You are right, we did not see Sauron using his full power (even his full power sans Ring). I think the only logical explanation for this is that he was afraid the Valar might get more directly involved. They already had Gandalf in mortal form aiding the free peoples through council, but if he had simply walked into Minas Tirith and done his evil smiting full blast then they may have considered a more direct opposition. Also we must remember that Sauron had been planning the war for a very long time and to him it was just beginning. He did not expect it to end at that point. Perhaps if he had he would have flexed his power more.

    I'm still not really sure what your point about blocking magic is. You mostly just re-stated a bunch of stuff.
    I am fully aware that Snape interrupted Harry. Do you think that Sauron is completely incapable of interrupting Voldy?
    You seem to utterly dismiss the anti-apparating magic around Hogwarts. Granted it is not undeniable evidence that all HP magic can be prevent, but at very least it is evidence that apparating can be. If all that example is good for in this thread is getting you to admit that Sauron can stop Voldy et co from apparating around him then I'll accept that.

    OK, you were'nt just repeating things, we got something new from you: HP casting can be stopped through impediments. I think Voldy's repertoire of magic will be greatly reduced when Sauron silences and paralyses him (and does the anti-apparating impediment).
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    I do remember Dumbledore telling Harry in one of the books that Voldy was an accomplished Legillmens. While I don't have my books nearby at the moment, I'm pretty sure it was said at in the 6th book, when Dumbledore and Harry are talking about the memory Dumbledore recovered from Voldy's uncle.

    However, I don't remember anywhere in the books where Voldy is called an accomplished Occlumens, just that he was employing it against Harry. I think the fact that Harry was able to see into his mind so many times kind of proves he wasn't one of the better ones around.

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    OMG... This thread is still going on?
    So are we talking about Sauron with the ring or without the ring.

    With the ring... Sauron is invincible. Like Achilles, who can't be killed unless his heel is harmed, Sauron cannot be killed unless the ring is taken from him. Actually, that is not accurate. Sauron is only weakened if the ring is taken.

    Now, how is Voldemort gonna get the ring from Sauron before Sauron kills Voldemort? He can use his minons to help him.
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    Rowan, the Valar had actually sent more then just Gandalf to aid the free peoples.

    Gandalf was just the only one who did anything.
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    I am aware of that. Saruman, in fact, was among those sent to help the free peoples, but see what he did. The others hardly even showed their faces on the job (they must have been unionised).
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    I believe the Brown Wizard played a small part in the Fellowship
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    Gandalf said it all. It's a fool's hope the one they had. It relied on the fact that sauron
    a) did not think it possible that anyone could be so braindamaged as to even want to destroy the ring.
    b) did not know enough (if anything at all) in those hobbitses. Had it crossed his mind that "the halfling" could have the nerve + the simple heart to even get close to mt. Doom without running insane, he'd have just sealed mordor like a clam.

    pretty much what gandalf says. S. had ambitions of conquer. he wanted to cover the land in shadows, but he did not want it popultaed by orcs. Had he flexed his muscles a little more, there would have been no hope whatsoever.

    O


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    Even when they knew Sauron didnt considered someone trying to destroy the ring Gandalf still thought it was necessary to make him focus on them.


    In fact there were more than just 3 sent to middle-earth but Silmarillion states that they all went to east.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ossian View Post
    EDIT: Sephirot and Link are sweating cold. C'mon, 10 more pages and we're there....
    More like 20 pages, this is page 34, Link vs. Sephiroth was over 50 pages.

    In any case at least Sephiroth vs. Link at least has equal numbers arguing for both sides.. Sauron has pretty much won this.
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    Default Re: Sauron vs Voldemort

    Speaking of which, where is our favourite only Voldemort supporter?
    I'm starting to want some more Dark Lord on Dark Lord action.

    Crap, now I need to say something relevant or I'm off topic.

    Voldemort's greatest power is terrorizing people. He has the same powers (as in spells) as everyone else in the world and he knows some of them a bit better than others (though many of them do not scale in power with the caster). The main source of his power is that he's OK with killing people and that scares people. Ultimately the only reason that he rose to power is because no one else A) cared enough about power to actually secure it in the right hands or B) had the balls to stand up to him. It this situation, unlike with Sauron, you can simply defy Voldemort because the fear is all in your head. We can quite clearly see that as soon as someone (an inexperienced boy no less) stood up and said "no" that the whole plan went down the crapper. Yes, HP was the "chosen one" (cue music), but perhaps it was more a prediction rather than a magical power and the reason he won is because he grew up in a muggle society where when someone screams "serve me!" you send them to the psych ward, definitely not serve them.
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    Just a little Thanksgiving lag, folks. Still kicking. Deadmeat never came back with his list of Ditto-tastic tactics, alas.

    I'll have to revise my statement on Occlumency: Snape is arguably the best Occlumens around. Being the best at something doesn't mean that anyone challenging you has no contest. To use the martial arts metaphor from earlier, you don't get the same results every time you put two veteran sumos in the ring. (But sumo wrestling is half-rigged. Anyway...)
    It's a prima inter pares thing rather than a blowout. I suppose after you get to a certainl level of profiency (immediately reading lies in someone's eyes and catching incantations even as they're formed on the lips) 'who's the bestestest' is sort of picking nits. I believe Dumbledore credited him as among the best, which is an even stronger recommendation than Bellatrix and Snape's rather categorical statements at the beginning of Book 6. If the top two wizards on the good team agree that he's the best they'll ever face, isn't that a strong enough endorsement?
    Harry had a direct window into Voldemort's brain. Obviously he wasn't practicing Legillimency agains Voldemort. Even an accomplished Occlumens can drop a thought when beatifically happy or maddeningly enraged (which is what happened with Harry), and Harry's brand of mind-reading could be seen as requiring a different sort of Occlumency to prevent. (Analogous to the difference between wizard and house elf apparating.)

    The reason you never see him in mental combat is because there's not really mental combat in HP...

    Important correction! I labeled LOTR as Cha-based (Force of personality? Hello?), HP as Int-based, and Star Wars/Jedi as Wis-based. It wasn't really a question of mechanics, merely a mnemonic. Neither LOTR or SW are as formula driven as anything in D&D or HP, nor did I claim they were; I liked to think of them in the same way as the D&D fluff explains each source, nothing more.

    Voldemort rarely uses spoken incantations (aside from Avada Kedavra and Crucio), so silencing isn't the end of the world. If Sauron wants to magically prevent sound from happening, I suppose he could do that. Paralyzing or using the anti-apparating jinx would both involve hitting him directly with the spell, and knowing the spell. If he were able to replicate the complicated mojo that prevents apparating within a warded area, he could do that.

    As you say, Rowan, HP magic is succeptible to impediments. That's exactly what the anti-apparating jinx is. It does not prevent all disappear-reappear magic, as a house elf's brand is able to bypass it. Silencio does not prevent casting; you need to know how to do another version of it (non-verbal). Incarcerous doesn't prevent you from moving, only from walking; you need to learn to roll or hop or wriggle along, but you're still going places. Petrificus Totallus doesn't even totally petrify you - the basilisk's version is true petrification ('The vilest sort of Dark magic', suspended animation and all that) whereas this leaves your autonomic nervous system and eyeballs running as normal. So no, the anti-apparating jinx is not an example of counterspelling.

    I keep restating the block/counterspell thing because every time I say HP can't be counterspelled, someone says "But you can block it with stuff (after it's already been shot, and thus not counterspelled)! Ha-HA!" Counterspelling (which Sauron can do) is also quite different from a mobile anti-magic field (which Sauron cannot, the a-a jinx is not, and Hogwarts is not).

    I have admitted that Voldemort could not stand face-to-face before Sauron's abhored presence, barring the generally inconsistent conditions under which other heroes have done so. Isn't this enough of a zing? I'm still of the opinion that the two systems are incompatible, particularly when Sauron's main defense is counterspelling direct confrontation and ignoring spell effects that hit him. Speaking of the latter... I've forgotten among the descriptions of blocking the god-birds and palantir battles, but do we have an example of magic actually hitting Sauron and him shrugging it off?
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    Default Re: Sauron vs Voldemort

    One point RE: Counterspelling. The Balrog counterspelled Gandalf's spell of closing on the door to the Chamber of Mazurbul after it was cast, not while or before the casting. This tells us that for purposes of LOTR counterspelling, spells that have already been cast can in fact be countered. Hence Sauron can lock Voldemort down hard magically, then crush him in the maner he finds most pleasing.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ditto View Post
    Voldemort is afraid of the dark now?
    i recall it said so in the sixth book
    Voldemort lost because of the power of looooove. Same reason he couldn’t keep Harry possessed. Turns out in HP, there’s something more important than will. (Not that will is important in HP magic, but since everyone else likes it so much.) Does the fact that he’s the most accomplished Legillmens and Occlumens in ever count for nothing?
    1. Voldy lost because he makes some ahorrid tatical blunders, such as attacking the school head on
    2. He lost a battle of wills to a 14 year old emotional tramitized boy
    3. If he is such a good mind reader, why doesn't catch snape?


    Voldemort’s only power is terrorizing people? I know anyone can cast AK, but the fact that magic is available to everyone in HP doesn’t mean it’s any less potent. Working from the same toolkit puts a lot of weight on how you use it, and apparently he’s pretty good with it. He’s powerfully magical in so many other areas that are being ignored.
    1. not every wizard knows AK, fake moody mentions that it is hard to learn
    2. His puppet goverment falll apart at first sign of resistance, Sauron's goverment needed the nudomorian army to defeat it.

    He found a way to escape death.
    that takes 14 years and a xantos gamit to come to his true form
    Sauron also has a way to escape death, and it is a lot more conventice.
    Should sauron die, it takes a year tops for his mortal shell to return (his spirt is intact and so he can command his wraiths even without a phyical form) as long as the ring is intact
    Voldemort requires an extremly persise ritueal and a lot of loyal servant to even come back in his evil baby form
    He also wielded an artifact.
    badly, if you recall that is what killed him
    He is the most powerful mortal – and more, technically – in the Potterverse
    other than dumboldor, harry potter, and snape apperently.

    I know you that ‘Most Powerful here’ does not necessarily equal ‘Most Powerful there’, but you keep knocking the peg for what Voldemort can be compared to lower and lower.
    because their is not comparin. A better example would be voldy vs. WK, or voldy vs. xykon or something like that you know. By mortal standards, voldemort is quite a threat, by divine standards, no way

    What is he, then, on par with Gimli? The most powerful dwarven force of comic relief in Middle Earth?
    1. Book gimli or movie gimli, only movie gimli is a comic relief
    2. does voldemort get magic? Becuause if so, then gimli is dead. Unless voldemort starts out in axe range of gimli, gimli is pretty much screwed
    Does it really hurt *so* much to admit that Voldemort is terrifically gifted in his own right?
    not at all, but he is out of his league. voldemort has plenty of advantages, but he is just up against to great a foe, you know what i'm saying. In comparasion to a more mortal enemy, yes he is quite scary, but not compared to Sauron. Voldemorty vs. Seph would be more realistic, voldemort vs. Princess Azula, Voldemort vs. Gandalf is a totally different story
    Even if it took 6 of them to take down Sauron, and Voldemort’s the equal of one of them, then that’s 1/6 the power of Sauron. Whereas y’all are dismissing him as completely inconsequential… he might as well be Boromir, it seems. Sauron couldn’t care less about the guy who can tear through his armies and elude capture indefinitely and ::all other wizarding powers which are being completely ignored and discounted::. Seriously?
    Sauron would care certainlly, i imagine he would be rightly pissed and very annoyed at the damage voldy and crew were commiting, but he would still win. It would just be a long, costly, and really annoying fight. most likely, sauron would offer Voldemort a place in his army and give him a totally trustworthy ring, but if they had to fight, sauron would win, it would just be really annoying

    If Gil-Galad was able to beat Sauron only in this case because he had the superhelmet, superspear, and superring, he doesn’t sound nearly as impressive on his own. Not unimpressive, of course, but less than he’s been made out to be.
    no you misunderstand, Gil-Galad was just as super as we said, he just also had all that magical stuff along with his own super skills. And sauron still killed him
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    I was going to go find and quote where you, Ditto, said what D&D stat LOTR magic would be based off of, but I realised that it would be double pointless and has absolutely no use in this debate.

    I'd still like some quotes on the whole "best at..." thing. You don't need them, but it would make your point much stronger.

    I think that just because an effect can be achieved through HP magic does not mean that the same effect cannot be achieves through LOTR magic. Therefore Sauron does not need learn HP spells to achieve similar effects. Sure, he may not make it look like a laser shooting from a stick, but who the heck cares?

    So, you have admitted that a face to face confrontation will result in victory for Sauron. Now we're getting somewhere.

    You have also admitted that Voldy's magic can be impeded by Sauron.
    The one thing that I don't recall you addressing is the sundering of wands from a distance. Surely that would put a few Death Eaters out of commission (and every Death Eater lost is a big blow to Voldy's forces).

    I'm sure you must see now that Voldemort has not hope of ultimate victory. With Sauron and his caster servants (Nazgul, Saruman, Mouth of Sauron, etc) actively impeding Voldy et co's magic they are much more susceptible to the physical traumas of entering combat with countless monsters.

    Let me see:
    The Dementors switch sides.
    A face to face confrontation with Sauron = lose for anyone including Voldy.
    A face to face confrontation with one or more Nazgul = lose for anyone (arguable except Voldy, but you have yet to convince me)
    We have ranged sundering of wands.
    Sauron's forces are much vaster.

    I really don't see where Voldemort's hope lies.

    It's not that Voldemort is not good villain in and of himself. he would be a huge threat to many lesser opponents, but against Sauron he is out classed. It's nothing to be ashamed of, many are, few are not.
    Voldemort could certainly be a major thorn in Sauron's side, but unless he had some serious circumstantial advantages he's not a legitimate threat to Sauron's permanent well-being.
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    Ditto, did you just call Harry an accomplished Occulumens?

    He is no such thing.

    Not at all.

    He sucks at it quite frankly.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rowanomicon View Post
    It's not that Voldemort is not good villain in and of himself. he would be a huge threat to many lesser opponents, but against Sauron he is out classed. It's nothing to be ashamed of, many are, few are not.
    Voldemort could certainly be a major thorn in Sauron's side, but unless he had some serious circumstantial advantages he's not a legitimate threat to Sauron's permanent well-being.
    Quoted for truth. There really isn't anything wrong with Voldemort as a villain (Volumes about his world, but within that world, he's a pretty good villain), but.. this is simply being outclassed. It happens. To Sauron too, even; Zetta or Laharl from the Disgaea games break planes of existence, sometimes on a whim, f'rex. Voldy's just not a legitimate threat to Sauron due to the difference in power scale. Doesn't make him less of a villain (A less experienced villain, but not a lesser villain).

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    This is an interesting, albeit fruitless, debate. Both "villians" depend on entirely subjective factors for their "powers" so who would win is utterly dependent on location and whether we agree that "magic" in Harry Potter is an external force that Wizards tap into and then focus, attune and release through themselves and ultimately their wands. Obviously the physics, metaphysics, of Middle-earth is different.

    In other words; Voldemort would be essentially powerless in M.E. Conversely, Sauron would be the same in the Harry Potter universe. Although being Maiar he does possess innate abilities. One ability, people, somewhat ignorant of the larger universe of Lord of the Rings could easily overlook. He is immortal!

    Where Voldemort is virtually immortal due to the nature of the horcruxes, Sauron really is immortal. Its his nature. He wasn't killed when the ring was destroyed, simply banished. And that was by order of a greater being, the creator of middle-earth itself and all life on it...Iluvatar. Even he could not destroy Sauron as he was imbued with what's known as "The flame imperishable" Which is a metaphor for soul substance.

    Sauron lost quite a few physical bodies during his time on middle-earth but always gained a new one. Because of his angelic, later on demonic, stature, to him bodies were as clothes to be taken off or put on at a whim. So I am sorry but I don't see how Voldemort would pose any threat at all to Sauron. Even in his own "backyard". Even if he was able to somehow destroy the physical vessel Sauron was inhabiting it wouldn't avail anything but to create a delay in time before Sauron would be back again.

    People seem to be under the misapprehension that destroying the ring would be the key. Well, if the fight takes place in H.P world then this would be impossible, as it can, literally, only be destroyed in one place...Mount Doom. It wasn't because Mount Doom was a very hot place. Sauron elected to have a "break clause" in his ring in case he ever wanted to re-absorb the stronger part of his powers again. He was originally a student of Aule, the smith God of Tolkien mythology, so he knew quite a bit about making things. The reason he never regained his former powers was because he never regained his ring. He was out-witted entirely by Gandalf.

    The Pre-ring Sauron was a different entity altogether. In command of his full abilities and full power. But no-one on here, from what I've seen, specified which Sauron we're dealing with? I assume that we're dealing with the Sauron from the movies? A little unfair considering he's inaccurately, even ridiculously, depicted as a roving eye. Obviously Peter Jackson failed to pick up on Tolkien's flair for metaphor. But then metaphor doesn't exactly translate well to the big screen so I'll let him off.

    At the end of the day we're dealing with mutually exclusive concepts here. Both baddies are insulated in their own worlds with their own unique properties which is where their power is derived from.

    Sauron is an immortal demi-god who had a "say" in how the nature of the world was to be manifested and therin gained power over the nature of the world itself. So if we're talking M.E then its not a fight, its simply a slaying. Of a very frightened, very out of his depth..Voldemort. "Fish out of water" would be an apt analogy.

    And if it took place in H.P world then Voldemort would last longer but ultimately be defeated. I guess Sauron would "entertain" Mr. V. whilst the Nazgul dealt with the horcruxes. Then Voldemort would realise his greatest fear. Actually I've been too nice on Voldemort; Sauron wouldn't even need to get his hands dirty, the Witchking is quite capable of taking out the cowardly rogue Wizard.

    Point is..its checkmate...The only way Voldemort could deal with Sauron is by getting rid of his ring. The only way to do that is by being in Middle-earth. But if he's in Middle-earth then he has no powers because the nature of the world and magic is different there. If its in his own universe then he cannot destroy the ring, nor use it unless he thinks his will is greater than a being that is, spiritually, much higher up in the pecking order, that is aeons old and was taught the black arts by a God!! I doubt it.

    I realise that, by their own prejudices, either way, people will confer their own logic on the two universes but it was never really an even match, a fair fight. You might aswell ask a mouse to fight a Rhino. It will end the same way each time...the poor mouse dies.

  30. - Top - End - #1020
    Pixie in the Playground
     
    ElfPirate

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    Default Re: Sauron vs Voldemort

    Sauron would utterly destroy Voldemort. He has milions of orcs and trolls at his disposal, and he has a vast array of evil monsters and demons at his disposal. Since Morgoth (The great enemy) is vanished, Sauron controls all evil things. The theres Sauron himself. 7-9 feet of power. In the silmarillion it says he is a master of shapes and hue, and lord of all werewolves. It also says anything he touches is turned to an evil purpose. Also if the witch king can put such a great fear upon others, what do you think Sauron could do.

    Yeah Voldemort has nothing on Sauron.

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