Sauron vs Voldemort

[....]

More like 20 pages, this is page 34, Link vs. Sephiroth was over 50 pages.

In any case at least Sephiroth vs. Link at least has equal numbers arguing for both sides.. Sauron has pretty much won this.

Sauron won this before the end of page 1.

Now people are just throwing Voldemort's corpse at him and screaming tearfully.

[Syllogist]

I would have much prefered to have seen a battle between the Witchking and Voldemort. There's more parity between those two than between Sauron and Voldemort. In fact they have a lot of similarites...

Both were once mortal men and are now somewhat changed; Less human, harder, almost impossible, to kill, essentially a kind of super Lich.

Both are Master level magic users with a plethora of nasty spells to draw upon.

Both had a prophecised doom; Voldemort fated to be defeated by Harry, the Witchking by a woman (Eowyn).

Voldemort's powers and skill level is well documented but Tolkien doesn't describe in any great detail the abilities of the Witchking, but he did give some indication...

He was, before his enslavement by Sauron, already a powerful and tyrannical sorcerer, one of the "Black Numenoreans". He dabbled with necromancy seeking ways to prolong his existence. At the time the entire Numenorean race was struggling, spiritually, with their mortality. Jealous of the Elves for their immortality. So there's another similarity between Voldemort and the soon to be Witchking...a profound fear of death, and seeking ways to prevent it.

So he was easily seduced by Sauron, when he went amongst men offering them unlimited power and immortality through the giving of the nine rings. So he achieved his aim of becoming undying but not quite in the manner he wanted. He lost his soul, his free will to Sauron.

The ring given to him by Sauron enhanced his powers significantly, aswell as corrupting him, and eventually he was tutored by Sauron himself in the black arts.

He became an undead king, a master necromancer, lord of wraiths. He himself was not a wraith, unlike the other Nazgul, he did possess a body. Giving him a substantial physical presence and making him just as apt in a melee as in a magical "fire-fight". Whether this was his long dead human corpse he still resided in or the body of some long dead hero he stole we'll never know.

Being a necromancer you can imagine the kind of dark sorcery he would have commanded. He loved to paralyze, demoralize and blind his opponents with fear. Not normal fear, a simple fear of death or pain or enslavement, but a magical fear...the "Black Breath". This suffocated the will, choked the spirit and could reduce men to mewling babies.

He had power over the extremes of nature, like Sauron before him, and Melkor before him, but to a much lesser degree; Fire and Frost were his weapons. Its noted that when he was in Angmar he surrounded his throne with elemental fire and covered the landscape in biting cold. The degree to which he could command fire and frost will never be known for sure. Its reasonable to think he could generate and manipulate both on a small and relatively large scale; Fireballs, frost-bolts, blizzards...etc. Bizarrely though he had a fear of natural fire. Possibly some residual left over from his former existence.

He also created magical weapons; the feared and legendary Morgul blades. That corrupted and enslaved the pierced to his mighty will.

It's known, from the first book of Lotr, that he could become invisible at will, when secrecy was required, although with a drawback that when travelling in great haste his presence could be sensed through how he affected the environment around him; generally drawing the heat and life out of things, slightly similar to a dementor in that respect.

On a level playing field and with their full array of powers it would be a compelling dual between the Witchking and Voldemort.

[EvilElitest]

The Pre-ring Sauron was a different entity altogether. In command of his full abilities and full power. But no-one on here, from what I've seen, specified which Sauron we're dealing with? I assume that we're dealing with the Sauron from the movies? A little unfair considering he's inaccurately, even ridiculously, depicted as a roving eye. Obviously Peter Jackson failed to pick up on Tolkien's flair for metaphor. But then metaphor doesn't exactly translate well to the big screen so I'll let him off.

This is Sauron from the Books with the Ring and his powers from before the war of the wraith.
from,
EE

[....]

I would have much prefered to have seen a battle between the Witchking and Voldemort.

Is Voldemort a man?

Voldemort loses.

No man shall slay the Witchking. It's impossible for Voldemort to even hurt him.

[Fuzzy_Juan]

Is Voldemort a man?

Voldemort loses.

No man shall slay the Witchking. It's impossible for Voldemort to even hurt him.

But what of animated statues? Falling objects? Nagini? besides...hurt and defeat don't always coincide...it is perfectly possible to defeat someone without hurting them.

As far as the old question of Sauron Vs. Voldemort...didn't Isldur just use the equivalent of Gryffindor's sword to chop the ring off Sauron's finger? Did Isldur have any special powers or was he just a man as well? I was under the assumption that he was just a man or at least part elven, but simply mortal nonetheless an without magic.

I mean....you have to think for a moment...with a wave of his hand, Voldemort, like McGonnagal could animate suits of armor...ok, suits of indestructable goblin made armor weilding goblin blades fight along side him...pretty much a match for the Nasgul i would think.

Now, if it is a question of who holds more raw power in both magic and minions...without a doubt the answer is Sauron...but in a battle between the two, one cannot discount the underdog as long as there is a chance that they could win.

[Lord Zentei]

Is Voldemort a man?

Voldemort loses.

No man shall slay the Witchking. It's impossible for Voldemort to even hurt him.

That raises the question of how to interpret such in-universe prophesies vis-a-vis versus debates that inevitably bring in stuff from elsewhere.

Is it really that no man can hurt him even theoretically? Or is it simply that he was ultimately killed someone who was not a man in the LotR story, and Glorfindel simply glimpsed this future? In the latter case, the prophesy becomes somewhat irrelevant since the time-line has changed: we bring in someone from a different setting and they engage in a duel that has no place in "pure" LotR or Harry Potter. In that case, we must go by raw power, capabilities and (non-prophecy related) weaknesses. If the former, could Silver Age Superman not hurt him (and I maintain that this is a Reductio ad Absurdum example)?

Note: I'm not really challenging your conclusion (I am undecided), merely the applicability of that particular argument.

[Supagoof]

Couldn't Voldemort just cast the Imperious curse on Sauron and make the Demi-God kill himself or order his legion of orcs to attack him?

I know he couldn't use it on Harry because Harry had "love" (( )), but Sauron doesn't....

For every giant unbeatable goliath there will be a david to defeat them. Such is a basis of storytelling. If the story had no hope of winning against the all powerful bad guy, then no one would read the story.

Aside, all things equal, Sauron whups Voldemort 11 ways out of 10.

[warty goblin]

But what of animated statues? Falling objects? Nagini? besides...hurt and defeat don't always coincide...it is perfectly possible to defeat someone without hurting them.

As far as the old question of Sauron Vs. Voldemort...didn't Isldur just use the equivalent of Gryffindor's sword to chop the ring off Sauron's finger? Did Isldur have any special powers or was he just a man as well? I was under the assumption that he was just a man or at least part elven, but simply mortal nonetheless an without magic.

I mean....you have to think for a moment...with a wave of his hand, Voldemort, like McGonnagal could animate suits of armor...ok, suits of indestructable goblin made armor weilding goblin blades fight along side him...pretty much a match for the Nasgul i would think.

Now, if it is a question of who holds more raw power in both magic and minions...without a doubt the answer is Sauron...but in a battle between the two, one cannot discount the underdog as long as there is a chance that they could win.

Voldemort = 70+ year old human who spends remarkably little time at the gymn.

Isildur = several hundred year old superhuman weilding the fragments of one of the greatest swords ever forged. Swordsmenwise, Isildur beats Voldemort with his legs tied together and one hand behind his back. It took Isildur, Gil-galad and Elendil to destroy Sauron's body, and I seem to recall that two of those three didn't exactly fare so well.

Sword of Gryffindor: It's made out of silver, and has rubies the size of hen's eggs in the hilt. Clearly not a sword made for combat. Silver is too weak, and putting rocks that size in the hilt just makes it too heavy. Even assuming its speshul goblin silver, affixing massive and heavy rocks to your sword is still stupid.

Narsil: Forged by one of (if not the) greatest dwarven smith of all time. Its name means "white fire" or "Sun and Moon" depending on the translation. None could stand against it. In terms of swordlyness, I'm giving this one to Narsil.

Animating suits of armor: OK, first off are there just suits of indestructable armor and weapons sitting around? Cause I remember that the rarity of such items was something of a plot point in Bk7. Second: counterspell: If its not resisted the armor de-animates. If it is, then either Voldemort gets lucky and his mind isn't destroyed, the armor de-animates and possibly explodes (See; Chamber of Mazurbul for description of counterspelling). If Voldermort doesn't get lucky, his sanity is flayed and his mind left naked before the Lidless Eye (see: Battle of Pelenor Fields, Witch-King speach).

Next Point: Fear.
Pretty much every action Voldemort takes throughout all of the HP books is motivated by fear of something or another, usually death. Clearly he's not fearless by any stretch of the imagination. Sauron's presense is pants-wetteningly terrifying to say the least. In the Second Age he managed to terrify Luthien to the point of fainting. Bear in mind that Luthien later went on and charmed Morgoth himself. Clearly not a woman that scares easily. I'm just not seeing Voldemort doing much more than sitting down and wimpering for his rubber ducky here, or possibly fleeing.

Another Point: Coercive power: Voldermort, through years of effort and many failures and near failures managed to take over the hopelessly incompetant government of a single small group of people. Sauron as a matter of course takes over the governments of entire, very large and militarily potent, nations, apparently in his spare time.

Further Point: Cunning. Voldemort's plans tend to be somewhat...overcomplicated. "I need HP's blood and can plant a mole as his teacher. Rather than doing something simple and sensible, like having my mole call HP to his office, stun him, alter his memory, then take a blood sample and take it to me, I'll force him to go through a long, complicated process in which many things could go wrong and that arouses everybody's suspicions." Or
"I want to hear this prophesy stashed in a location that my servants have easily infiltrated. I however cannot go there, nor can the prophesy be moved. Do I:
1) Carry out long, complicated gambit to draw my enemies there, and then hope like hell that my followers don't bungle things up as usual?
or
2) Send three followers, one with a hammer and two with notebooks and writing equipment. Have the one with the hammer smash the prophesy and the two with pencils write it down."

Sauron's plans:
"I need to bend beings to my will. I could trick them into forging Rings which I could then control. I'm good at magical enslavement, should work."
Or my favorite:
"I can't beat the Numenorians in a straight fight, they're that pimp. Do I:
1) Fight to the last orc and goblin in a battle I'll ultimately lose and risk the destruction of my power base more or less perminantly, or

2) Instead I'll allow myself to be taken prisoner without a struggle, which will cause minimal damage to be done to my resources, I'll need them later. Then I'll pretend to repent of my evil ways and slowly corrupt and control my enemies until they destroy themselves."

Sorry, but Sauron's got Voldemort coming, going and three ways in the middle.

[warty goblin]

Couldn't Voldemort just cast the Imperious curse on Sauron and make the Demi-God kill himself or order his legion of orcs to attack him?

I know he couldn't use it on Harry because Harry had "love" (( )), but Sauron doesn't....

For every giant unbeatable goliath there will be a david to defeat them. Such is a basis of storytelling. If the story had no hope of winning against the all powerful bad guy, then no one would read the story.

Aside, all things equal, Sauron whups Voldemort 11 ways out of 10.

Oops, need to cover this one too. Imperious can be fought off with strength of will. If anybody's got willpower its Sauron, he's a very powerful LOTR sorceror and LOTR magic depends heavily on willpower. If Voldemort tried that, it would by like shooting a BB gun at a battleship. In theory it could do some damage, but the odds are astronomically low and the return salvo will be far more powerful.

edit: Oops, didn't see your colored portion there. And RE: The story thing. Well at this point I've read the 30+ pages of this thread (and written a fair number of them myself by now), plus gone back over several different books to find evidence. At this point I'd say I for one would read the story of Sauron beating Voldemort into a nice paste.

[Lord Zentei]

warty goblin, an enjoyable read. Especially:

I can't beat the Numenorians in a straight fight, they're that pimp.

[EvilElitest]

warty goblin, an enjoyable read. Especially:

Seconded
from,
EE

[Ossian]

Sauron's presense is pants-wetteningly terrifying to say the least. ....I'm just not seeing Voldemort doing much more than sitting down and wimpering for his rubber ducky here, or possibly fleeing. Sorry, but Sauron's got Voldemort coming, going and three ways in the middle.

Oh, how much I laughed...
I'd like to see Voldemort savoring an easy win counting on Sauron not having a mommy that loves him...and then getting a big spiky mace as an answer. Or anything as comical. Ah wg, you have to give us more! Write a series, like Sauron Vs the League of Extraordinary Villains....

O.

[Rowanomicon]

I heart WG.

[EvilElitest]

I heart WG.

Isn't he on your side

Hey Ditto, if you have given up by this point, please don't just leave, at least come out and say so, and we (or at least I will) give you a good congratulation for trying so hard, and getting so far. You've done a pretty good job in a hopeless situation i must say.
from,
EE

[....]

But what of animated statues? Falling objects? Nagini? besides...hurt and defeat don't always coincide...it is perfectly possible to defeat someone without hurting them.

As long as no man animated the statues or dropped giant rocks on him, sure.

Nagini is a female snake, but I don't think poison works on undead wraiths.

[Ditto]

Geeze, the Internet goes down at work for one day (suspending all job-related activities - it was like a day off, in a suit!) and people think I've disappeared. Okay, let's pitch this up again...

WG – Again, defining terms. Breaking an established effect is what I call dispelling. For the purposes of my arguments, what the Balrog did was dispel, even if the text uses the word counterspell. Counterspell is preventing magic from happening, as it’s happening.
P.S. Such wonderful prose that pops up in this thread!

EE – Half of what you said has been stated verbatim elsewhere… were you scavenging long past posts? One or two new(-ish) points, anyway: Yes, Voldemort is the most powerful person in the Potterverse. A tie with Dumbledore, sure. Snape is a solid second, but definitely second. Potter as a package does not rank. AK is hard, as with Crucio and Imperio, in that you really have to want it for it to work. The Death Eaters all have the pretty much down.
That it would be a long, hard, serious battle is more than has been admitted previously.
Of course WG is on Rowan's side... that's why he loves him. Everyone's on that side. But I get visitors over here occasionally!

Eita – I did not call Harry an accomplished Occlumens. That would be very silly.

Syllogist – Love the name. A nice summary of many things that have been covered thus far. One quibble point, for the heck of it: Voldemort destroying the Ring vis-à-vis Nazgul

HP/Int -LOTR/Cha - SW/Wis can be found at posts #708 and #714.

What is the Mouth of Sauron? “Sauron and all of his many caster servants…” is a phrase that keeps getting kicked around, but I don’t know anything about anyone besides the Nazgul. Share?

Some Legillimency/Occlumency support: Voldemort says repeatedly to his followers "Do not lie to me... I can always tell...", (and then does) particularly at the beginning and end of HP4. Snape shuts Bellatrix down at the beginning of HP6 by saying that "[You think that I have] Fooled the Dark Lord, the greatest wizard, the most accomplished Legilimens the world has ever seen?" Dumbledore echoes this sentiment when he introduces Harry to the art mid-book 5. Voldemort is able to develop false memories and images for Harry to pick up on through their bond - a feat of Occlumency, not Legillimency. Legillimency cannot implant flashes; Voldemort opened up a section of his mind stuffed with fully constructed memories and even 'current' sensations (cf. Slughorn's sloppy job, and he's a rather talented wizard (even though we don't know of his relative skill in that area)) and shunted any information on the reality of the situation away while Harry was peering in.

The Dementors switch sides arguably over the course of a campaign. In the opening big battle, they’re a nice force for Voldemort.
A face-to-face confrontation with one or more Nazgul = Big bad news, but has been done before...
A face-to-face confrontation with ::any LOTR BBEG:: = Not what HP wizards do in battle.
I’m sure once a Nazgul has two or three seconds to focus on a clearly presented weapon (the way it happened in the book), then the wand is kaput. If a Nazgul or three is hanging around that part of the big battle… they attack elsewhere.

Sauron’s forces are far vaster, but they’re far punier. 99% of them, anyway, which is a good statistic. Even if each and every one of Sauron’s alleged casters were absolutely perfect at totally blocking anything wizards could throw, quelling the Fiendfyre, everything… they still can’t be everywhere, or anywhere near enough to protect huge chunks of the army.

For what it's worth, Nagini biting you would still be an ow. We decided a ways back that all prophecies were out, because that's just unsporting elsewise. You'd need Bellatrix (or Dobby!) to kill WK, but no one besides Harry could kill Voldemort. No prophecies is sort of implied in a vs. thread, hm?
Animated armor is one thing, transfigured armor is another. You can't dispel the latter. They're much more of a pain.

Supagoof - I want some of whatever you're smoking. Imperius curse... now you've done it. You *had* to say it.

[warty goblin]

Geeze, the Internet goes down at work for one day (suspending all job-related activities - it was like a day off, in a suit!) and people think I've disappeared. Okay, let's pitch this up again...

WG – Again, defining terms. Breaking an established effect is what I call dispelling. For the purposes of my arguments, what the Balrog did was dispel, even if the text uses the word counterspell. Counterspell is preventing magic from happening, as it’s happening.
P.S. Such wonderful prose that pops up in this thread!

EE – Half of what you said has been stated verbatim elsewhere… were you scavenging long past posts? One or two new(-ish) points, anyway: Yes, Voldemort is the most powerful person in the Potterverse. A tie with Dumbledore, sure. Snape is a solid second, but definitely second. Potter as a package does not rank. AK is hard, as with Crucio and Imperio, in that you really have to want it for it to work. The Death Eaters all have the pretty much down.
That it would be a long, hard, serious battle is more than has been admitted previously.
Of course WG is on Rowan's side... that's why he loves him. Everyone's on that side. But I get visitors over here occasionally!

Sorry to hear about the downed internet, although you certainly sound like you're making the best of it

And now you're hurting my delicate goblinoid feelings, I was thinking Rowan loved me for my rapier wit and debonair critique of tactical ability.

Counterspell wise I'm just going off of how the term is stated in the books. Given that Gandalf is a several hundred year old wizard/immortal spirit, I feel relatively save in assuming that he knows what he's talking about. Thus it was a counterspell, not a dispell, not a AMF. A counterspell.

Personally I always thought the way that Snape played Bellatrix in Book 6 was masterful. She couldn't really admit that Voldemort could be fooled, given her somewhat creepy affection for him, and thus couldn't logically argue that Snape was fooling him. The fact that Snape was in fact playing Voldemort made it oh so sweetly ironic. Which brings me to another point, doesn't Dumbledore basically play Voldemort like a fiddle after Book 4? The whole Minestry debacle he predicted, he staged his own death to make it appear that Voldemort had won and maintain (indeed enhance) Snape's cover, and in Book 7 basically predicted everything Voldemort did, dispite being dead. Now granted Dumbledore is really good at playing people along. Funny thing is, so is Sauron. If Dumbledore can fool Voldemort that reliably, I see no reason why Sauron couldn't lure Voldemort into some sort of lethal trap pretty easily. Sure it might take a bit of time to set up and pull off, but let's face it, time is not something either party is in exactly short supply of.

Again, I still haven't seen any decent answer as to how Voldemort expects to not be crushed by the fear of Sauron's presence.

[Fuzzy_Juan]

heh, wasn't too sure how old Isildur was...looks like he was around 200 when the battle with Sauron took place, then got killed 2 years after that. I guess I am just remembering the movie and how it seemed that just a single lucky shot with a magic sword ended it all.

For the HP universe, the goblin made swords and armor are indestructable and the sword of griffindor is highly magical in addition to being goblin made (it only imbibes that which makes it stronger). While rare, goblin crafted items are not so terribly rare that they could not be fielded in small numbers if one was amptly motivated and had enough resources.

do I think Voldy has a prayer in hell...no...just tossing out some random thoughts.

[Rowanomicon]

And now you're hurting my delicate goblinoid feelings, I was thinking Rowan loved me for my rapier wit and debonair critique of tactical ability.

I do, warty, I do.

..Oh, and, uh... SSSAAAUUURRROOONNN!!!
*ahem* What WG said (how am I supposed to add content to this thread if you say what I was going to say first?)

[Supagoof]

Oh, how much I laughed...
I'd like to see Voldemort savoring an easy win counting on Sauron not having a mommy that loves him...and then getting a big spiky mace as an answer. Or anything as comical. Ah wg, you have to give us more! Write a series, like Sauron Vs the League of Extraordinary Villains....

O.

Tears of laughter at the mace comment. Love it!

Okay, here's one - Sauron vs. Superman

[EvilElitest]

Geeze, the Internet goes down at work for one day (suspending all job-related activities - it was like a day off, in a suit!) and people think I've disappeared. Okay, let's pitch this up again...

Good to have you back

WG – Again, defining terms. Breaking an established effect is what I call dispelling. For the purposes of my arguments, what the Balrog did was dispel, even if the text uses the word counterspell. Counterspell is preventing magic from happening, as it’s happening.
P.S. Such wonderful prose that pops up in this thread!

But sauron can literally stop it form happening ever, and if the Balrog fight is to be belived, he can dispel as well (so his minor casters can Dispel Friefire)

EE – Half of what you said has been stated verbatim elsewhere… were you scavenging long past posts?

what? That is because i keep getting ninja and there is only one person on your side, so you haven't responed to some of my points (see army size, ect)

One or two new(-ish) points, anyway

Use quotes please

AK is hard, as with Crucio and Imperio, in that you really have to want it for it to work. The Death Eaters all have the pretty much down.

But can they do it under stress, like the massive fear that hte nazgul bring

That it would be a long, hard, serious battle is more than has been admitted previously.

You were complaining that no one was taking Voldermort as a threat, so i was stating that yes, it would be an annoying fight for sauron, but he would still win in the end

Syllogist – Love the name. A nice summary of many things that have been covered thus far. One quibble point, for the heck of it: Voldemort destroying the Ring vis-à-vis Nazgul

Well, i think the lesser rings are hard, but possible to destroy, F-fire would most likely world (dragon fire does) but how does he bring down the nazgul. something to point out, the nazgul no longer wear there rings, other wise then there bodies are destroyed at rivendale, their rings would be there as well

What is the Mouth of Sauron? “Sauron and all of his many caster servants…” is a phrase that keeps getting kicked around, but I don’t know anything about anyone besides the Nazgul. Share?

Didn't you read the book? At the end of the part 1 in Return of the Ring, when the good guys come before the Black Gate, Sauron's top caster the mouth of Sauron comes forth, a dude so old that he had forgotton his own name, more cruel than any orc, with lots of evil magic, and he can control people's will with his voice. he has a battle of wills both with Aragorn, who he is unable to quell, then he is defated by Gandalf after a hard challenge
from,
EE

Some Legillimency/Occlumency support: Voldemort says repeatedly to his followers "Do not lie to me... I can always tell...", (and then does) particularly at the beginning and end of HP4. Snape shuts Bellatrix down at the beginning of HP6 by saying that "[You think that I have] Fooled the Dark Lord, the greatest wizard, the most accomplished Legilimens the world has ever seen?" Dumbledore echoes this sentiment when he introduces Harry to the art mid-book 5. Voldemort is able to develop false memories and images for Harry to pick up on through their bond - a feat of Occlumency, not Legillimency. Legillimency cannot implant flashes; Voldemort opened up a section of his mind stuffed with fully constructed memories and even 'current' sensations (cf. Slughorn's sloppy job, and he's a rather talented wizard (even though we don't know of his relative skill in that area)) and shunted any information on the reality of the situation away while Harry was peering in.

The Dementors switch sides arguably over the course of a campaign. In the opening big battle, they’re a nice force for Voldemort.

I've already proven that Sauron can bend evil dark creatures to his will, the dementor will only be helpful for a min tops.

A face-to-face confrontation with one or more Nazgul = Big bad news, but has been done before...

True, but you are going to lose a lot of death eaters

I’m sure once a Nazgul has two or three seconds to focus on a clearly presented weapon (the way it happened in the book), then the wand is kaput. If a Nazgul or three is hanging around that part of the big battle… they attack elsewhere.

The Nazgul can fly out of site, and the WK can turn invisible, and they are hard to see anyways, while three seconds makes sense, it takes about that much time to apear, shoot, dissapear.

Sauron’s forces are far vaster, but they’re far punier. 99% of them, anyway, which is a good statistic. Even if each and every one of Sauron’s alleged casters were absolutely perfect at totally blocking anything wizards could throw, quelling the Fiendfyre, everything… they still can’t be everywhere, or anywhere near enough to protect huge chunks of the army.

You'd need Bellatrix (or Dobby!) to kill WK, but no one besides Harry could kill Voldemort.

Different types of prophecies

No prophecies is sort of implied in a vs. thread, hm?

Animated armor is one thing, transfigured armor is another. You can't dispel the latter. They're much more of a pain.

Big mace

Supagoof - I want some of whatever you're smoking. Imperius curse... now you've done it. You *had* to say it.

I feel for you

Oh and by the by, with all hte love WG is being shown, are you male or female, just curious by the way
from,
EE

[dehro]

jeez... still going on?... has anything seriously "new" surfaced in the last 20 pages?... I've got the feeling that most of the topic is each one of us saying the same stuff with other words, adding nothing new to it since at least several pages of posts..
if this is true, maybe we should just forget about the whole thing...
(like with chess..repeating the same moves a number of time automatically gives a draw)... ditto will never be swayed by logic, by facts, by actual quotes from the books, by opinions or wathever else, so why bother?
I feel the only way to keep this thread from going on indefinitely is to creep up on Ditto with a big hammer. shall we not just end it?

[EvilElitest]

jeez... still going on?... has anything seriously "new" surfaced in the last 20 pages?... I've got the feeling that most of the topic is each one of us saying the same stuff with other words, adding nothing new to it since at least several pages of posts..

This thread is like WWI, a war of atrition. We are bringing up new points, confirmed old ones once and for all, and by now ditto is pretty much almost on his last ground. Eventrually he simple can't old out.

if this is true, maybe we should just forget about the whole thing...
(like with chess..repeating the same moves a number of time automatically gives a draw)... ditto will never be swayed by logic, by facts, by actual quotes from the books, by opinions or wathever else, so why bother?

Why bother with any debate? The sadifaction of watching the argument

I feel the only way to keep this thread from going on indefinitely is to creep up on Ditto with a big hammer. shall we not just end it?

1. This thread isn't quite at "must end" point"
2. Tried it, it does't work, ditto has ninja powers. We decieded to settle our ancient feud online instead. I tried to get him, he drew a katanna, i had a ninja-to and we have a matial art ninja duel for about forty mins. Imagine Crouching Tiger hidden dragon, only cooler
from,
EE

[Rowanomicon]

Hmm, why does everything lead back top me needing to finish my invention that allows you to stab people in the face over the internet?

[dehro]

Why bother with any debate? The sadifaction of watching the argument

I choose to believe that this definition was not a case of bad spelling but a deliberate mentioning of the sadistic element in the statement itself.


and no, I've got the feeling that we are repeating old arguments to exhaustion without putting much novelty in any of them. I am thinking that Ditto cunningly is putting us against the same arguments we have debated 40something pages ago but have by now forgotten and believe are new ones.
this thread is a bloody Penrose Triangle!

[EvilElitest]

I choose to believe that this definition was not a case of bad spelling but a deliberate mentioning of the sadistic element in the statement itself.

I enjoy agruments, i like to see what people have to say. This debate is dying true, but it is not quite dead yet and i for one want to see it to the end. The thread is not quite at the point were i feel "oh good lords, please kill it" that comes near page 43. When i feel "alright this needs to end" comes around page 46. "Kill it, kill it now" comes near page 48 and "Why won't it die" comes at page 50. At page 53 we all come to realize "We've created a monster" however as ditto is the only pro Voldy person here, i really don't think it will go on that long

and no, I've got the feeling that we are repeating old arguments to exhaustion without putting much novelty in any of them. I am thinking that Ditto cunningly is putting us against the same arguments we have debated 40something pages ago but have by now forgotten and believe are new ones.
this thread is a bloody Penrose Triangle!

While i disagree with you repeating argument point, i must say, why are you reading it then?
from,
EE

[....]

Elitist just wants the last word.

[EvilElitest]

Elitist just wants the last word.

Oh like i would take the last word and gloat constently about that fact i was lucky enough to get the last word before the thread was closed. Only a an evil elitest bastard would ever do that, somebody who would put that fact on their sig. Now that i would ever do that ever..........though thanks for the idea, not that i would do anything
from,
EE

[Ditto]

Sorry WG, I would never impugn your writing skills thusly. He loves you for *all* of the above reasons. And you're probably sneaking him the good cookies, too. Jerk.

I've granted that Voldemort could not stand when Sauron brings his Cthulhu-ness to bear.

Gandalf definitely knew what he meant when he talked about counterspelling, and that word is used correctly in the context of LOTR. If we were to assume word-transparency, then what would we do when we talk about Wizards, Elves, Goblins, Pygmy Puffs...? We run into this problem in a big way when it comes to the word 'Magic', which I'm still saying simply can't be resolved.

I've always felt that Book 7 Dumbledore (okay, 'always' being four months) was completely out of character with the earlier books' presentation. JKR always hinted at things before bringing them to fruition, and Dumbledore's checkered past and general asshattery came pretty much cold. (Then again, so did this Deathly Hallows crap and the goblin subtext... and Harry understanding the entirety of the Elder Wand's workings for his dramatic final speech.) Anywho... yeah, Book 7 Dumbledore is as Xanatos Roulette as they come. I think that playing his own death for maximum value was a perfectly believable turn, but Dumbledore coaching Snape on how to slip ideas through 'Dung or guide Ron Weasley back to Harry with a heroic quest in between and and and were all a bit much.
...in any event, all of that business had a lot to do with Dumbledore stalking Voldemort from the age of 11. I mean, there are a few people in Middle Earth who could talk about ringlore, but Dumbledore's the *only* guy who knew what was going on with Voldemort. It's back to the question of 'Can the teams do research on things within the other universe?' I think it's probably getting a bit far afield at that point. Comparing Sauron and Voldemort's relative Research and Knowledge: Local checks is a bit pedantic. :small amused:

EE - You mentioned those minor casters again. Who are they? I haven't read the trilogy for years, so the Mouth of Sauron is interesting. That's one, anyway.

Big mace

Expelliarmus. Deal.

jeez... still going on?... has anything seriously "new" surfaced in the last 20 pages?... I've got the feeling that most of the topic is each one of us saying the same stuff with other words, adding nothing new to it since at least several pages of posts..

There has been a recent influx of new people who repeat old points, but there are still new things creeping in. Speaking of saying the same stuff, welcome back! I was worried you'd grown bored of dropping in every few pages to complain that this is still going on.

We're definitely winding down... though that's been said before. This has been entertaining and civil, so I don't see any reason it would be locked. Sorry to deny you the satisfaction, EE.

I feel the only way to keep this thread from going on indefinitely is to creep up on Ditto with a big hammer. shall we not just end it?

Hmm, why does everything lead back top me needing to finish my invention that allows you to stab people in the face over the internet?

Guys, I'm standing right here.
Guys? Hey, where'd you get those stabbing screens?

[Rowanomicon]

Sorry WG, I would never impugn your writing skills thusly. He loves you for *all* of the above reasons. And you're probably sneaking him the good cookies, too. Jerk.

Looks like someone's jealous.

then what would we do when we talk about Wizards, Elves, Goblins, Pygmy Puffs...?

Hey, I forgot about Sauron's Pygmy Puff shock-troopers. Voldy's so dead.

We run into this problem in a big way when it comes to the word 'Magic', which I'm still saying simply can't be resolved.

I agree that the word 'magic' is used to describe many different things. Really I think it is used to describe what we (muggles, if you will) do not understand. Therefore I think that HP 'magic' and LOTR 'magic' must be considered as two separate, but full explainable, things.
That is why I was attempting to narrow down just exactly what HP magic is. It is a lot like chemical reactions. If you know the right chemicals and procedures you get the effect you desire.
LOTR magic is somewhat more vague. It is more that "magical" in that it follows less specific rules. It is more that those who wield magic have a familiarity with the laws of the universe and know how to make them bend. It's also a lot more personal in that the vary power casters (ie. Maiar; eg. Sauron) get to exert their mojo (will, spirit, etc.) over lesser beings' mojo. Hmm, I'm finding this somewhat hard to explain (a little help WG?).
I know that in HP you can effectively exert your mojo over someone, but in LOTR one's essence is more involved. In HP it all the same tricks, just some people have more practice/ambition. In LOTR it's how powerful a being you are innately. Knowledge and practice help, but, with few exceptions, if you're not "divine class" you're not getting getting there no matter how hard you try. The Witch King is an exception to this, but a lot of his power comes from Sauron (who is "divine class" and very, very powerful).

I've always felt that Book 7 Dumbledore (okay, 'always' being four months) was completely out of character with the earlier books' presentation. ...

I can't really speak to the content of book 7 having never head past the first couple chapters, but if it's cannon it's cannon.

EE - You mentioned those minor casters again. Who are they? I haven't read the trilogy for years, so the Mouth of Sauron is interesting. That's one, anyway.

I can't really think of any more specific ones right now besides MoS, Saruman, and the Nazgul, but I'm sure there's more (with I had my books with me). I don't think it would be too far off to think that there are some that don't get specific book mention, but that would really need some sort of back up (again, wish I had my books).

Expelliarmus. Deal.

I can just imagine:
Voldemort: *animates armor*
Sauron: *smashes a suit and turns to the next*
Voldemort: Expelliarmus!
Sauron: No! *continues smashing suits* *mind crushes Voldemort*

We're definitely winding down... though that's been said before. This has been entertaining and civil, so I don't see any reason it would be locked. Sorry to deny you the satisfaction, EE.

We do seem to be winding down, then again I don't really see anyone leaning towards admitting the other side is right (although you did admit some things, like Voldy ain't facing Sauron head on).

Also I agree, I can't really see them locking this thread as long as it stays civil. I mean, they might think we're losers to debate the same thing for a couple of decades straight, but I see no reason for them to stop us.

Guys, I'm standing right here. :smallwink
Guys? Hey, where'd you get those stabbing screens?

Heheh, I might just sig that. We'll see, I've been thinking of freshening up my sig recently. Waiting for good quotes.