Sauron vs Voldemort

[Ditto]

I totally track what’s implied under the given LOTR definition of magic, and the analogy of HP magic and chemistry isn’t really a bad one. What’s bad is equating the latter with chemistry insofar as it’s a physical, mundane science. Magic (in whatever form) is circumventing the laws of the universe as we know them. However you’d define what Sauron does, it is *not* rewriting the laws of the universe, because that implies a certain permanency. Sauron is bending the rules – which revert to some status quo eventually – just like every other magic user does, in principle. I don’t think it’s a given that because LOTR casting is intrinsic, it inherently subsumes HP magic. HP magic is intrinsic, too, but not anywhere near as limited as the LOTR pool. (WK and MoS, both Men, were ‘powerful sorcerers’ in their own right, aside from Sauron’s boosting. Perhaps there are different kinds of magic even within LOTR… and HP has *zero* exceptions.) HP magic deals with auras, albeit in a far less prominent way, in several cases. (These include powerful wizards sensing the ‘signatures’ of magic/wizards cast long ago, the Dementors’ ability, the way AK and bolt curses in general interact with targets – hitting skin is not necessary, only the ‘person’.) The idea of an aura, like that of intrinsic casting, has a vastly different connotation and denotation in each of the worlds.

Both systems reach beyond the mortal (or even immortal) ken and The Rules to wrap some generally unexplainable if manipulatable Stuff around the universe and wring it out. How one gains access to this power may differ, but at its base the same principle stands in any magic system.

See, the Expelliarmus thing… that’s a spell I really think ought to work, even granting that Sauron gets a Will save against effects that affect him intrinsically (transfiguration particularly), because it *doesn’t* meddle with his person. It’d be the same as ripping open his backpack or painting his armor – it affects Who He Is exactly none. In the last line of your scene, you deny HP magic can work and attribute that non-existant mind-crushing ability to Sauron again. This is a fine example of why the scenarios we each pose keep bouncing back off of each other. /

Book 7 is of course full canon, I’m just griping about the literary side of things.

In conclusion, sig me and quit hogging the cookies!

[Deadmeat.GW]

Non-existant?

Ok, so Sauron does not have mind affecting powers that are in effect like crushing all hope out of someone?

Cool, mind telling us which Sauron we can use since the one from Lord of the Rings is not allowed?

And you are really trying to tell us that Voldemort can change reality at the basis?
Mind telling us which books you have gotten this Voldemort out?

Voldemort is not anywhere as powerfull as you are making him out, he does NOT know all the weaknesses of Sauron, he is not able to plan long term mass battles with proper care and he can be lied to and conned as pro the books that everyone else has read.

Whatever you know and might be able to think up given the basis from the HP universe is NOT what Voldemort could do.
Once more we are talking about Voldemort, not Ditto the Dark Lord.

Voldemort can be scared, ergo he will be affected by the dread that Sauron exudes (powerful enough to cause extra-ordinary powerful enchantresses faint).
That alone will cause a huge problem for Voldemort because Voldemort has learned he has to be present to get the job done.
His minions are just not good at doing something the way he wants it done.
As he will be present in person and he likes to to tangle with people up close (wanting to look them in the eye when they die seems to me like pretty damn close up) it will be quite likely he looses there and then.

The LotR magic wielded by Sauron was versus gods and demi-gods, I am still waiting for a the quote from the books where Voldemort is coming up and holding his own against gods and demi-gods.
The simple raw powerlevel that Sauron has, the far better skill he has shown at planning and using new tactics, the sheers numbers game he can throw against his enemies, the far bigger tendency of Sauron to be able to con enemies while face-to-face all combine to overwhelm Voldemort.

Voldemort is great in his own setting but even there he shows a worrying tendency to overestimate his own skills and underestimate his opponents.
The level of opposition he faces just does not provide him with anywhere near the same incentive to grow much beyond his current skill level.

Because lets be honest if one of them can create by mere presence a terror such that an entire city of pretty much epic level fighters is incapacitated, can block, counter and deflect magic going from standard wizards all the way up to gods and still almost win when taking on in melee half a dozen of the most powerful people the good side has at the time versus one of them that apart from ruling through bullying people around him tends to get beaten by a bunch of kids with barely any training...

Lets put it in D&D terms, Voldemort simply never had the encounters to get the experience to get to a high enough level to properly compete.

Now Voldemort versus the Witch King there I would give Voldemort odds to actually hold his own, not easily (actually he would be the underdog by a small margin) but he would be able to do something.

[Rowanomicon]

That little scene I posted was more for comedic effect than actually being proof.
IF any HP magic could be used against Sauron I actually think that Expelliarmus would be one of the more likely ones to work (unless blocked).
Though even if we assume that it would work there's still the very good probability that it would be blocked and the question of how close the caster is getting to Sauron. If they are within, oh say a city-sized radius, they fail (at everything). If they are beyond that then A) how are they aiming? and B) even if they get a lucky shot Sauron could take a coffee break and then block or dodge the spell.

Really a debate over whether it would affect his is pointless because it would never get cast at him, and if it did he'd block it.

Deadmeat has some valid points there.

Voldemort has a tendency to overestimate himself and underestimate others. He also has some very incompetent minions. In this battle the first screw up will be his last. He wont know Sauron's power so he will think "Who's this other Dark Lord guy that thinks he's tougher than me?" and apparate into close(ish) combat at his first chance where even you, Ditto, admit he is doomed.

In conclusion I will sig you and give you cookies if you come to the Dark(er) side and admit Voldy's defeat.

EDIT: Oh, and uh, yeah, the mind crush ability does actually exist.

[warty goblin]

Looks like someone's jealous.

I agree that the word 'magic' is used to describe many different things. Really I think it is used to describe what we (muggles, if you will) do not understand. Therefore I think that HP 'magic' and LOTR 'magic' must be considered as two separate, but full explainable, things.
That is why I was attempting to narrow down just exactly what HP magic is. It is a lot like chemical reactions. If you know the right chemicals and procedures you get the effect you desire.
LOTR magic is somewhat more vague. It is more that "magical" in that it follows less specific rules. It is more that those who wield magic have a familiarity with the laws of the universe and know how to make them bend. It's also a lot more personal in that the vary power casters (ie. Maiar; eg. Sauron) get to exert their mojo (will, spirit, etc.) over lesser beings' mojo. Hmm, I'm finding this somewhat hard to explain (a little help WG?).
I know that in HP you can effectively exert your mojo over someone, but in LOTR one's essence is more involved. In HP it all the same tricks, just some people have more practice/ambition. In LOTR it's how powerful a being you are innately. Knowledge and practice help, but, with few exceptions, if you're not "divine class" you're not getting getting there no matter how hard you try. The Witch King is an exception to this, but a lot of his power comes from Sauron (who is "divine class" and very, very powerful).

Never fear, overly academic goblinoid with facial disfigurement to the rescue!

Here's how I would codify LOTR magic: Base it off of Descartes' "I think therefore I am", only modified to be "I think, therefore ____". Essentially instead of rewritting reality in a location, I think of it as adding some extra axioms of reality. For example the spell of shutting on the door in Moria would have all of its original physical properties the axiom "If something tries open this door, it won't open". The Balrog's counterspell was, according to my model, essentially saying "This door, in fact, can open," it was removing (aka countering) the extra axiom. The Ring seems to work roughly the same, it makes the person posessing it seek power, not by overriding its mind in an overt, mindcrushy way, but by essentially forcing them to except the axiom "I want power" as part of their makeup.

Incidentally this could explain why LOTR casters can't fly, since gravity is an existing condition and therefore not mutable under my system. Invisibility works, because light naturally penetrates an object to some degree, the Rings just up this to 100% of light. It also does a good job of explaning shapeshifting since it just changes a beings "You look like ___" to "No, you look like ___" instead.

Granted, I'm sure that there is a problem with this system somewhere that I'm not thinking of, but in general I think it does a decent job of explaining the way that LOTR magic works.

Now HP magic, as my dear Rowan said (and said very well) is more akin to chemistry: Do X, Y, produce Z. This even works into the HP notion of a wizard being skilled. Pretty much all of us here can get vinegar and baking soda to fiz, its easy, just pour one into the other. Its the equivilant of a really basic spell. Making say, a complex heart medication, although in essense chemistry, is far harder and beyond the scope of most of us.

If both of these models are of sufficient use to be used to represent the different systems, then HP is incrediably easy to break with LOTR magic. Just add an axiom that causes X and Y to produce a less desirable result, in addition to its normal effect. For an extreme example, "if somebody shakes a wand around and says stuff in psuedo-Latin, that person is now a chicken." If somebody casts a spell, the spell works, the caster is just getting in touch with his poulty side. On the other hand, Ditto is right that HP magic cannot then be directly countered by his meaning of the word, since my interpretation of LOTR magic does not allow the overriding of the effects of existing axioms (and HP magic appears to be pretty axiomatic), merely the addition of new ones.

Thoughts on this interpretation?

[EvilElitest]

Don't worry Ditto, i was talking long term, but eventually i hope to get the last word on this thread

Wait, i would never do something like that
Anyways, we are pretty civil here so it can keep going

Hey guys, IMPORTANT
If this goes to 40, i'm going to go screw it and try helping Ditto for a little while. I've come up with a different tatic that might work better than ditto, less flashy however

Anyways, Ditto, the Mouth of Sauron's known powers

Fear
His voice can dominate other's will, letting him striken, intimidate, weaken, and phyically drain those who hear him
He seems to be able to pervent people form attacking, only Gandalf could summon up the will to fight him
He has a fire breathing undead horse
He seems to have some power over fire, whenever he got made, the horses fires increased
He can mentally control his minions

He is the greatest caster, but not the only. The Black Nudamorians are Sauron's elite units, his most powerful men (the even version of Aragorn's people). Bear in mind, they are still as great in body and will as Aragorn's ancesters, the ones who came over the sea, not the lesser Gondor men. They all have the same powers as aragorn's folk (tall, bad ass, amazing fighters, can go for a long time without getting tired, really cool semi magical weapons, good sailors, great fighter's, long life, amazing will ect.) They are only a few of them left in the third age however, but many of them are spell casters taught by Sauron personally. They were taught their magics when sauron was still on the island of Nutamor or however you spell it, so they are even more powerful, most likely known some of his great magics that he uses to a much lesser extent, weather (they use it on there own lands) lighting, most likely fire, fear, and mind control, but we never see them use that.
The men of the east and the men of the south have minor casters working for Sauron, who most likely just use lesser versions of his powers, and there are men who live at Dol Guldor, who most likely known necromanctic magic. And there are the barrow wrights. Plus we known the orcs know spells "I once knew every spell in all the [languages] of elves, men, and orcs"
from,
EE
Edit: Also Warty Goblin, with all the love being shown to you, are you male or female just by the by

[warty goblin]

Male. Lonely college math major to be precise.

[EvilElitest]

Male. Lonely college math major to be precise.

Good to know. Hope this internet debate makes your lonely college life less so
from,
EE

[warty goblin]

Good to know. Hope this internet debate makes your lonely college life less so
from,
EE

Oh it does. This thread has been a truly major part of my life for however long now its been going on. There's actually time blocks set aside in my mental schedule- "9:30-10:00; Sauron vs. Voldemort debate/ other forum activities."

Some people talk politics. I debate the merits of various fictional evil entities on the internet. Its like politics, but without the dangerous side effects.

On topic: Any thoughts on my system explaining LOTR magic?

[EvilElitest]

Oh it does. This thread has been a truly major part of my life for however long now its been going on. There's actually time blocks set aside in my mental schedule- "9:30-10:00; Sauron vs. Voldemort debate/ other forum activities."

Some people talk politics. I debate the merits of various fictional evil entities on the internet. Its like politics, but without the dangerous side effects.

On topic: Any thoughts on my system explaining LOTR magic?

Wow, that really puts the attempt to shut down vs. threads into perspective. And i have a quote that will help your LOTR magic theory

"In fact with every step towards the gates of Morder, Frodo felt the Ring on its Chain about his neck growing more burdensome.....But far more he was troubled by the Eye....It was that more than the drag of the Ring that made him cower and stoop as he walked. The Eye: that horrible growing sense of hostile will that strove with greate power to pierce all shodows of cloud, and earth and flesh, and to see: to pin you under its deadly gaze, naked, immovable. So thin, so frail and thin, the veils were becoming that still warded it off Frodo knew just where the present habitation and heart of that will now was: as certainly as a man can tell the direction of the sun with his eyes shut. He was facing it, and its potency beat upon his brow."
hope that helps and i'm glad this debate helps you relive you boredom. once this thread is over PM me and me you and Septra will make a new vs. thread together, another intellegent one
from,
EE

[....]

What if Morgoth came around to help Sauron out?

[EvilElitest]

What if Morgoth came around to help Sauron out?

well then the match goes from Voldemort being owned to Voldemort being



OWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWNNNNNNNNNNN NNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDD DDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDddd


As if he is every single kolbald that has ever been killed in a D&D game all put together owned.
from,
EE

[....]

No one could survive an onslaught from every kobold ever killed in D&D.

So, who would Voldemort need on his side in order to bear Sauron?

[EvilElitest]

No one could survive an onslaught from every kobold ever killed in D&D.

So, who would Voldemort need on his side in order to bear Sauron?

Does this person have to come from his world?
from,
EE

[turkishproverb]

No one could survive an onslaught from every kobold ever killed in D&D.

So, who would Voldemort need on his side in order to bear Sauron?

Hey, ..., how do I join the fanclub??

Incidentally, couldn't every PC ever beat ever Kobold ever killed by a PC?

[EvilElitest]

Hey, ..., how do I join the fanclub??

Incidentally, couldn't every PC ever beat ever Kobold ever killed by a PC?

1. Just write down the fact your a member with a picture on your sig. In a week, the secret society will come check on you to see if you are worthy. if you are, then your a member. if not, well, we don't talk about that
2. Not in my champains, i put Tucker's kobold's to shame.
3. The idea is that every kobold who has ever been owned owness will some together and become the owned that voldemort will be
from,
EE

[....]

Hey, ..., how do I join the fanclub??

Incidentally, couldn't every PC ever beat ever Kobold ever killed by a PC?

Not if they all attacked en masse.

And I dunno, just put my sig into your sig. We can worship the awesomeness of together!

[EvilElitest]

Not if they all attacked en masse.

And I dunno, just put my sig into your sig. We can worship the awesomeness of together!

If Voldemort could only gets guys from his world, and Harry potter does not get plot armor, than the entire cast would work. I mean, voldemort only has a 100 death eaters tops, if he has a few thousand, then he could make a difference
from,
EE

[....]

So a few thousand could stop Sauron?

[EvilElitest]

So a few thousand could stop Sauron?

Lets see, if well orginized (much more so than in the books) and all unified, maybe 20 thousand wizards could defeat Sauron an co.
from,
EE

[....]

I see. Very interesting.

[EvilElitest]

I see. Very interesting.

If voldemort gets numbers, orginization, and more resources (a base maybe) at disposal he could very well win
from,
EE

[turkishproverb]

So a few thousand could stop Sauron?

Thousand? No. More like.....

....

Whats the number bracket. after Trillion?


Also, you know It would be partially my fault if they did.

One too many Paragon and Preternatural and Demilich Kobold's.

[Rowanomicon]

Never fear, overly academic goblinoid with facial disfigurement to the rescue!

Here's how I would codify LOTR magic: Base it off of Descartes' "I think therefore I am", only modified to be "I think, therefore ____". Essentially instead of rewritting reality in a location, I think of it as adding some extra axioms of reality. For example the spell of shutting on the door in Moria would have all of its original physical properties the axiom "If something tries open this door, it won't open". The Balrog's counterspell was, according to my model, essentially saying "This door, in fact, can open," it was removing (aka countering) the extra axiom. The Ring seems to work roughly the same, it makes the person posessing it seek power, not by overriding its mind in an overt, mindcrushy way, but by essentially forcing them to except the axiom "I want power" as part of their makeup.

Incidentally this could explain why LOTR casters can't fly, since gravity is an existing condition and therefore not mutable under my system. Invisibility works, because light naturally penetrates an object to some degree, the Rings just up this to 100% of light. It also does a good job of explaning shapeshifting since it just changes a beings "You look like ___" to "No, you look like ___" instead.

Granted, I'm sure that there is a problem with this system somewhere that I'm not thinking of, but in general I think it does a decent job of explaining the way that LOTR magic works.

Now HP magic, as my dear Rowan said (and said very well) is more akin to chemistry: Do X, Y, produce Z. This even works into the HP notion of a wizard being skilled. Pretty much all of us here can get vinegar and baking soda to fiz, its easy, just pour one into the other. Its the equivilant of a really basic spell. Making say, a complex heart medication, although in essense chemistry, is far harder and beyond the scope of most of us.

If both of these models are of sufficient use to be used to represent the different systems, then HP is incrediably easy to break with LOTR magic. Just add an axiom that causes X and Y to produce a less desirable result, in addition to its normal effect. For an extreme example, "if somebody shakes a wand around and says stuff in psuedo-Latin, that person is now a chicken." If somebody casts a spell, the spell works, the caster is just getting in touch with his poulty side. On the other hand, Ditto is right that HP magic cannot then be directly countered by his meaning of the word, since my interpretation of LOTR magic does not allow the overriding of the effects of existing axioms (and HP magic appears to be pretty axiomatic), merely the addition of new ones.

Thoughts on this interpretation?

Right, what did I say?

Seriously, this was like my exact point for the last dozen pages. You said it so freakin' well.

I'm a dude so no marriage proposal but we can be friends (as long as you keep with the cookies!)

EE,
Nice points and quotes, thanks.

Guys, don't derail thread into a "how many HP wizards does it take to get to the centre of Sauron" discussion. Also the whole "good tactics" thing really doesn't make sense. You'd need a reason for wizards with good tactics. First they'd need to learn how to think. Elementary math and language classes could do them some good. There's no telling what they could do with a high school education. I'm not even talking about Grade 12 math or science. I'm talking like the basic high school education.
The most monstrous thing to imagine is if they became gamers and decided to take character optimization, RTS, and FPS skill into the "real" world.
Now an army of those guys could take out Sauron.

[EvilElitest]

Right, what did I say?

Seriously, this was like my exact point for the last dozen pages. You said it so freakin' well.

I'm a dude so no marriage proposal but we can be friends (as long as you keep with the cookies!)

EE,
Nice points and quotes, thanks.

Could i join this friendship?

Guys, don't derail thread into a "how many HP wizards does it take to get to the centre of Sauron" discussion. Also the whole "good tactics" thing really doesn't make sense. You'd need a reason for wizards with good tactics. First they'd need to learn how to think. Elementary math and language classes could do them some good. There's no telling what they could do with a high school education. I'm not even talking about Grade 12 math or science. I'm talking like the basic high school education.
The most monstrous thing to imagine is if they became gamers and decided to take character optimization, RTS, and FPS skill into the "real" world.
Now an army of those guys could take out Sauron.

I'm just saying that if Voldemort had a trained unified army of wizards then he could stand a better chance. And by army, i mean in the ten thousand range
from,
EE

[Ossian]

Could i join this friendship?
I'm just saying that if Voldemort had a trained unified army of wizards then he could stand a better chance. And by army, i mean in the ten thousand range
from,
EE

I see your point, although, by that that rationale technically if Voldemort had a mass-driver cannon or mastered the Dark Side of the force he could be a match for Sauron too...
IFs won't get V. very far against a mace the size of a cruiser's anchor
Of course, this is NOT a good reason to start a Palpatine Vs Voldemort or Vs Sauron thing...

[EvilElitest]

I see your point, although, by that that rationale technically if Voldemort had a mass-driver cannon or mastered the Dark Side of the force he could be a match for Sauron too...
IFs won't get V. very far against a mace the size of a cruiser's anchor
Of course, this is NOT a good reason to start a Palpatine Vs Voldemort or Vs Sauron thing...

Right, the main point is, Voldemort lacks all the things he would need to win, a large sized intellegent, compatent orginized army of wizards
from,
EE

[....]

I see your point, although, by that that rationale technically if Voldemort had a mass-driver cannon or mastered the Dark Side of the force he could be a match for Sauron too...
IFs won't get V. very far against a mace the size of a cruiser's anchor
Of course, this is NOT a good reason to start a Palpatine Vs Voldemort or Vs Sauron thing...

Since when did Sauron have a mace?

I mean, besides the movie.

I thought Morgoth had Grond?

[dehro]

No one could survive an onslaught from every kobold ever killed in D&D.

So, who would Voldemort need on his side in order to bear Sauron?

....Sauron

[warty goblin]

Could i join this friendship?

I'm just saying that if Voldemort had a trained unified army of wizards then he could stand a better chance. And by army, i mean in the ten thousand range
from,
EE

Sure- cookies for all!

Now if Voldemort had Ungoliont on his side, he'd win, then be eaten.

[EvilElitest]

.

..Sauron

So this whole thread is a catch 22.

Sure- cookies for all!

Now if Voldemort had Ungoliont on his side, he'd win, then be eaten.

1. Horray
2. That is a victory, i suppose, in the broadest sense of the word
from,
EE