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  1. - Top - End - #1141
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    Default Re: Sauron vs Voldemort

    Quote Originally Posted by Ditto View Post
    I overstated the null-magic transparency thing. Apologies for the overreaction-prompting-ness thereof.

    'Sauron's ability works the same way in HP now the same as it does in LOTR'
    -> 'Sauron's ability cannot exist in HP.'
    -> 'Sauron's ability works exactly the same in HP, except that it doesn't exist.

    I understand the idea that Sauron's universe's rules carry over, but HP's universe does not support blanket negation of magic. It isn't there. Therefore, I would not assume someone who can do It could do It in a universe where It has no meaning.

    Consider: AK cannot be blocked by magic, period. If you stand in front of it and eat it, you're dead. LOTR magic can be blocked (or more importantly, counterspell-pre-blocked) because it is derived from force of will, and a sufficiently strong-willed individual can stop or diffuse anything, period. What happens if a superthinky human (say you give Aragorn the Ring, for simplicity's sake) stares down an AK bolt? I'd argue it hits him, the end. You'd probably say... it doesn't, because he doesn't want to. (Aggressively.) There are certain absolutes which really can't be reconciled.
    But magic does block Ak in Harry Potter, its why the series didn't end in the prologue of book 1 with the Dursleys finding out that every last Potter had been killed.

    Or is that not "blocking?"
    Happiness yesterday and happiness tomorrow, but never today... It can't be because it's only an illusion after all, and illusions only look real from a distance. We're over, my dreamy lost love, over, and that's the best thing of all, because it's the only thing that makes it good.

    George RR Martin, Dying of the Light, 1977.

  2. - Top - End - #1142
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    Default Re: Sauron vs Voldemort

    Re: My Divinity: Well actually Sauron rules so much that he has a God (me) as his prophet, none of this mortal or semi-mortal prophet business, that's for sissies.

    Re: Magic Negation: HP doesn't actually have a rule that states that magic cannot be negated/blocked/countered/whatever word we're using right now.
    We could assume that both universes rules apply and therefore HP wizards can cast, but Sauron can also "cast" his anti-magic abilities. So HP wizards need to be a sufficient distance from Sauron in order to cast properly.
    Alternatively, we could assume that HP rules trump ME rules and even then that loopholes convenient to Voldemort (ie. the food issue) still allow those rules to be broken, but only by Voldemort.

    Ditto, at this point I am simply trying to help you understand exactly what you are suggesting in the hopes that you will see the error of your ways. I do not mean to offend you, but what you have suggested is truly illogical and certainly not a neutral consideration of this battle.

    Re: LK v S: I will come to that debate at some point; at the moment I simply don't have the time.
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  3. - Top - End - #1143
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    Default Re: Sauron vs Voldemort

    You're right. No, there is not a rule that Dumbledore mentioned this one time, "By the way, it's impossible to make a null-magic zone." But is there a rule Gandalf said one time, "I can undo anything, ever, period"? It's like in A Few Good Men, when Tom Cruise asks why directiosn to the mess hall aren't in the Marine code of conduct. Something are laid out by gobs of supporting evidence, OR are plainly evident just by walking around in the place.

    What you are suggesting is that Sauron is completely and totally immune to any magic Voldemort could hit him with, period. Not that Voldemort could cast anything even if he wanted to, because Sauron could unthink magic. I get exactly what you're saying, and it doesn't track.

    What I am suggesting is that Sauron's niftiest ability in a fight against magic users, the ability to cut off use of magic, cannot function the way it is 'explained' in LOTR because magic works in a completely different way in HP. That's not a transparency issue - such as how big and hot your fireball is, and where it enters the material realm - it's a basic fact of the system that cannot be compromise-equated away. It's like LOTR magic working without uber-willpower. It's not the way magic is built in HP to be blanket suppressed.
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  4. - Top - End - #1144
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    Default Re: Sauron vs Voldemort

    Again, Avada Kedavera is blocked. It doesn't kill Harry as a baby, yet it was cast. Something either negated, blocked, cancelled out, reversed, destroyed, rendered harmless or otherwise defeated it. Call it a block, shield or whatever, the point is that, even within the universe it can be defeated even if it makes contact. Thus Harry Potter magic is not, as you claim, impossible to prevent doing its thang, even after it is cast.

    By the way, did anybody else engineer the strange way in which every single person can be rendered immortal in the HP-verse by killing one person?
    1) Have Wizard A kill random person B.
    2) Wizard A creates a horcrux while doing this.
    3) Have Wizard C kill Wizard A and form a horcrux. Now both have at least a limited immortality.
    4) Reform Wizard A, have wizards D and E kill A and B
    5)Repeat
    6)????
    7) Profit.

    The best part about this is that it's rate grows porportionally to the number of repititions of the cycle, so once the program is off the ground it won't take to long. Talk about a healthcare plan...
    Happiness yesterday and happiness tomorrow, but never today... It can't be because it's only an illusion after all, and illusions only look real from a distance. We're over, my dreamy lost love, over, and that's the best thing of all, because it's the only thing that makes it good.

    George RR Martin, Dying of the Light, 1977.

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    Default Re: Sauron vs Voldemort

    Quote Originally Posted by warty goblin View Post
    6)????
    7) Profit.
    Alright, that's it. This thread has reached it's peak; it's all down hill from here. Might as well lock this thread up tighter than a frog in a watermelon seed spittin' contest because it not going to any better than this.
    We needed the ultimate funny, and it was delivered.
    Sauron vs Voldemort, you say?
    Easy: WG wins.
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  6. - Top - End - #1146
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    Default Re: Sauron vs Voldemort

    AK was blocked by loooooove, not 'counterspelled/nullified' - which would mean it was never actually cast. AK has that big asterisk about the love shield, but since that isn't readily reproducible or consciously castable, it's not a valid active defense, and in any event Sauron cannot call on its power (the ultimate, if infrequent force in HP) for protection.

    Horcruxing is a Deep Magicke of Eville and all that, and the existence of such a thing is barely even known of, much less common. The ritual involves tearing apart your soul and rending your very humanity - and while Death Eaters are by and large verifiably quite evil, there aren't many who are that deranged to go along with it. Voldemort never let slip to any of his followers that he had them floating about, however nifty a business model it might make once wizard A got over the fact that he had to work pretty hard to reform.

    That being said, I'm perfectly okay with WG being the ultimate winner of this thread. He's earned it.
    Quote Originally Posted by zyphyr View Post
    They don't actually love Gold, they only say that to get it into bed.
    John Dies At The End
    Sauron vs. Voldemort

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    Default Re: Sauron vs Voldemort

    Quote Originally Posted by Ditto View Post
    AK was blocked by loooooove, not 'counterspelled/nullified' - which would mean it was never actually cast.
    NO, it doesn't. Counterspelling, in many contexts the term is used, means it shuts the spell down just AFTER it is cast, but before it has any effect (like in M:TG)
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  8. - Top - End - #1148
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    Default Re: Sauron vs Voldemort

    Quote Originally Posted by Ditto View Post
    AK was blocked by loooooove, not 'counterspelled/nullified' - which would mean it was never actually cast. AK has that big asterisk about the love shield, but since that isn't readily reproducible or consciously castable, it's not a valid active defense, and in any event Sauron cannot call on its power (the ultimate, if infrequent force in HP) for protection.

    Horcruxing is a Deep Magicke of Eville and all that, and the existence of such a thing is barely even known of, much less common. The ritual involves tearing apart your soul and rending your very humanity - and while Death Eaters are by and large verifiably quite evil, there aren't many who are that deranged to go along with it. Voldemort never let slip to any of his followers that he had them floating about, however nifty a business model it might make once wizard A got over the fact that he had to work pretty hard to reform.

    That being said, I'm perfectly okay with WG being the ultimate winner of this thread. He's earned it.
    Why thank you very much. Mind if I sig that? Does this mean I've officially won the thread?

    And yes, I realize that is a digusting and gross misuse of canon abilities. In short, just the sort of thing a gamer would do
    Happiness yesterday and happiness tomorrow, but never today... It can't be because it's only an illusion after all, and illusions only look real from a distance. We're over, my dreamy lost love, over, and that's the best thing of all, because it's the only thing that makes it good.

    George RR Martin, Dying of the Light, 1977.

  9. - Top - End - #1149
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    Default Re: Sauron vs Voldemort

    TP, I've been quite explicit on how *I've* been using the word counterspell for at least a dozen pages, and it is 'before spell is cast/never gets cast'. 'After cast/before effect', e.g., deflecting a stunner, is blocking.

    Heh... would that mean your Horcruxing Galleons in 7 Easy Steps plan is the sort of thing the Dark Lord Warty Goblin would do with brilliant college-educated metaplot knowledge, and not what Voldemort would do? Geeze, I hope no one phrases it *that* way or there'll be hell to pay!

    No matter! It is ended! WG, you may sig away. I shall be more than happy to rephrase your victory in a more sig-attractive fashion, if you so desire.
    Quote Originally Posted by zyphyr View Post
    They don't actually love Gold, they only say that to get it into bed.
    John Dies At The End
    Sauron vs. Voldemort

  10. - Top - End - #1150
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    Default Re: Sauron vs Voldemort

    Quote Originally Posted by Ditto View Post
    TP, I've been quite explicit on how *I've* been using the word counterspell for at least a dozen pages, and it is 'before spell is cast/never gets cast'. 'After cast/before effect', e.g., deflecting a stunner, is blocking.

    Heh... would that mean your Horcruxing Galleons in 7 Easy Steps plan is the sort of thing the Dark Lord Warty Goblin would do with brilliant college-educated metaplot knowledge, and not what Voldemort would do? Geeze, I hope no one phrases it *that* way or there'll be hell to pay!

    No matter! It is ended! WG, you may sig away. I shall be more than happy to rephrase your victory in a more sig-attractive fashion, if you so desire.
    Exactly, if I ever become a Dark Lord, the very world will tremble in fear of my healthcare plan! Of course, using my metaplot knowledge I would also build a massive Self-Destruct Switch (bearing a clear warning of its functionality) onto my main power generator, which would by neccesity cause the collapse of my entire Dark Fortress with Forbidding Background Soundtrack, while I escaped in safety to my secret reserve base on the dark side of the moon.

    And thank you for a most excellent debate. This has been a very enjoyable thread for its near forty pages and, what, two months running time? Your original statement is quite enough as well, I will be sigging it shortly.

    Again, thank you for the discussion.
    Happiness yesterday and happiness tomorrow, but never today... It can't be because it's only an illusion after all, and illusions only look real from a distance. We're over, my dreamy lost love, over, and that's the best thing of all, because it's the only thing that makes it good.

    George RR Martin, Dying of the Light, 1977.

  11. - Top - End - #1151
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    Default Re: Sauron vs Voldemort

    Quote Originally Posted by Ditto View Post
    TP, I've been quite explicit on how *I've* been using the word counterspell for at least a dozen pages, and it is 'before spell is cast/never gets cast'. 'After cast/before effect', e.g., deflecting a stunner, is blocking.
    Point I was making is your definition of counterspell isn't *entirely* valid. So, are you saying that someone could AK and it just wouldn't work, even though the spell was cast?
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    Star Wars canon is one of those things where people have started to realize that the guys in charge are so far off their rockers that it's probably for the best to ignore them.
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  12. - Top - End - #1152
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    Default Re: Sauron vs Voldemort

    Quote Originally Posted by Rowanomicon View Post
    Sauron vs Voldemort, you say?
    Easy: WG wins.
    *sniff*

    ...I guess what i said wasn't sig worthy...

    *sniff*

    *huddles in corner eating cookie crumbs off the floor*

    Anyway, yes this has been a very enjoyable thread. I'd ask who we're goign to pit Sauron up against next, but what i came up with in the S v LK thread is a nearly all encompassing argument that applies to almost anyone who couldn't bring themselves to destroy The Ring.
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    Default Re: Sauron vs Voldemort

    Quote Originally Posted by Ditto View Post
    TP, I've been quite explicit on how *I've* been using the word counterspell for at least a dozen pages, and it is 'before spell is cast/never gets cast'. 'After cast/before effect', e.g., deflecting a stunner, is blocking.

    No matter! It is ended! WG, you may sig away. I shall be more than happy to rephrase your victory in a more sig-attractive fashion, if you so desire.
    funny how you presume that we should all go along with your definition of counterspelling even though we do not agree it's a correct one, just because it suits your defense line better...had you not made the same assumption in more than one case, this whole thread would have been a hell of a lot shorter...

    wait..it's really ended? God...I was doubting I'd live to see the day..
    Last edited by dehro; 2007-12-10 at 05:05 AM.
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  14. - Top - End - #1154
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    Default Re: Sauron vs Voldemort

    Sauron has an army of millions of orcs, trolls, and what have you, and his immortality MacGuffin was invulnerable to all but the fire of a single volcano.

    Voldemort has sniveling wannabes, double and triple agents, and immortality MacGuffins that can be destroyed by a teenage boy.

    Furthermore, whereas Voldy ran a wizard Mafia and the Muggle world never recognized that there was an evil megalomaniac rampaging about the English countryside, Sauron was a force to be feared by the entire freakin' world.

    And then there's the Ringwraiths. These undead, ring-bound beings of destruction are logically invulnerable to Imperius (their minds are already being controlled by Sauron, so Voldemort would have to control the demigod's mind first... and who can beat THAT Will save?), Avada Kedavra (They're undead... they can't be killed that easily, much less by evil...), and possibly the Cruciatus Curse (come on, I mean, they're hell-bound servants of Satan (if you extend the metaphor used in Tolkien's work, Morgoth and Sauron can both be seen as being derived from Satan), so any pain that Voldemort can inflict is a drop in the ocean of pain they are probably... er... un-living). The Witch-King of Angmar is probably at least capable of taking out Voldemort by himself, but then there's eight more of them!

    ...Voldemort, barely an A-list villain, can stand no chance against the powers of an Epic-level horror that is the Lord of the Rings.

    If Sauron doesn't kill him, he'll instead turn Voldemort into the 10th Nazgul through corruption by one of the Rings under his control (probably not the Nine, though... I think those are still being worn by the original Nazgul...).
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    Default Re: Sauron vs Voldemort

    So far the best Vs thread. Well structured and humorous posts on both sides. Well done guys!

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    Default Re: Sauron vs Voldemort

    Quote Originally Posted by Rowanomicon View Post
    *sniff*

    ...I guess what i said wasn't sig worthy...

    *sniff*

    *huddles in corner eating cookie crumbs off the floor*

    Anyway, yes this has been a very enjoyable thread. I'd ask who we're goign to pit Sauron up against next, but what i came up with in the S v LK thread is a nearly all encompassing argument that applies to almost anyone who couldn't bring themselves to destroy The Ring.
    Sure I'll sig you, I was actually going to ask you today if it was OK. And here, have some more cookies.
    Happiness yesterday and happiness tomorrow, but never today... It can't be because it's only an illusion after all, and illusions only look real from a distance. We're over, my dreamy lost love, over, and that's the best thing of all, because it's the only thing that makes it good.

    George RR Martin, Dying of the Light, 1977.

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    Default Re: Sauron vs Voldemort

    High five, Rowan! Couldnít think of a worthier adversary to join in a worthier sig.

    Everyoneís free to define counterspelling in anyway they like. I was trying to be clear on what I meant when I used the word, which people kept disagreeing withÖ I mean, if you want to use a different definition, thatís cool. I never got why people said I was explaining what I meant incorrectly, though. I detailed Ďthat thing you canít do to HP magicí, and called it counterspelling. If thereís another version of counterspelling with broader implications that my definition doesnít fulfill, bully for it. I didnít claim it did. I just hope Iíd explained what I meant to say clearly enough.

    Mando, youíre so very late.
    [/closing thought]
    [/end thread]
    Quote Originally Posted by zyphyr View Post
    They don't actually love Gold, they only say that to get it into bed.
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    Default Re: Sauron vs Voldemort

    *High Five!*
    *Gobbles cookies*
    *Picks nit* The Nazgule don't wear the Nine rings anymore; Sauron took them back.

    This thread was indeed great.
    Sorry if you already said Ditto, but does the "overness" of this thread indicate that you are handing the victory to SSSAAAUUURRROOONNN!!!
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    Default Re: Sauron vs Voldemort

    Y'know, if I *had*, do you really believe you'd've missed it?
    Besides, you already handed over victory. To WG. No more victories to hand out.
    Quote Originally Posted by zyphyr View Post
    They don't actually love Gold, they only say that to get it into bed.
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    Default Re: Sauron vs Voldemort

    Quote Originally Posted by Ditto View Post
    Y'know, if I *had*, do you really believe you'd've missed it?
    Besides, you already handed over victory. To WG. No more victories to hand out.
    This thread CANNOT end before fourty pages.


    The orcs alone would kill Voldemort.
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    Star Wars canon is one of those things where people have started to realize that the guys in charge are so far off their rockers that it's probably for the best to ignore them.
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    Default Re: Sauron vs Voldemort

    Well, well, well. Forty pages, and a fairly courteous and well-thought out versus thread, as these things go. Since it seems as if our main facilitators have repeatedly gone over all points, and the thread has been conceded to dark horse candidate Warty Goblin... can it be that a versus thread might wrap itself up tidily?
    Last edited by The_Snark; 2007-12-11 at 10:16 PM.
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    Default Re: Sauron vs Voldemort

    Quote Originally Posted by The_Snark View Post
    Well, well, well. Forty pages, and a fairly courteous and well-thought out versus thread, as these things go. Since it seems as if our main facilitators have repeatedly gone over all points, and the thread has been conceded to dark horse candidate Warty Goblin... can it be that a versus thread might wrap itself up tidily?
    Ya, I made the mistake of reading through this thread and found the same points were repeated over and over again. It will end soon. Hopefully


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    Default Re: Sauron vs Voldemort

    Quote Originally Posted by The_Snark View Post
    Well, well, well. Forty pages, and a fairly courteous and well-thought out versus thread, as these things go. Since it seems as if our main facilitators have repeatedly gone over all points, and the thread has been conceded to dark horse candidate Warty Goblin... can it be that a versus thread might wrap itself up tidily?
    Can i be co winner, with Ditto as worthy opponent?
    from,
    EE

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    Default Re: Sauron vs Voldemort

    Quote Originally Posted by Rowanomicon View Post
    Alright, that's it. This thread has reached it's peak; it's all down hill from here. Might as well lock this thread up tighter than a frog in a watermelon seed spittin' contest because it not going to any better than this.
    We needed the ultimate funny, and it was delivered.
    Sauron vs Voldemort, you say?
    Easy: WG wins.
    I love the easy answer

    wait..it's really ended? God...I was doubting I'd live to see the day..
    meh, link vs. seph 53 pages before they gave up

    Oh and ditto, what about me? I fought you tooth an nail as well
    can me and Sauron's prophit be co-winners?
    from,
    EE
    edit, opps, double space
    Last edited by EvilElitest; 2007-12-11 at 11:04 PM.

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    Default Re: Sauron vs Voldemort

    Quote Originally Posted by EvilElitest View Post
    I love the easy answer


    meh, link vs. seph 53 pages before they gave up

    Oh and ditto, what about me? I fought you tooth an nail as well
    can me and Sauron's prophit be co-winners?
    from,
    EE
    edit, opps, double space
    This thread will NOT end.
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    Star Wars canon is one of those things where people have started to realize that the guys in charge are so far off their rockers that it's probably for the best to ignore them.
    Quote Originally Posted by Triscuitable View Post

    OH GOD THEY'RE COMING! RUN! RUN, TURKISHPROVERB, RUN!

    Quote Originally Posted by Maxios View Post
    GENERIC FLAMING COMMENT, POSSIBLY INVOLVING YOUR MOTHER !

  26. - Top - End - #1166
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    Default Re: Sauron vs Voldemort

    Sorry, EE, but WG gets the throne to himself. Rowan served the nomination, but I don't think I could have voted for anyone else. (We vote for kings around here. We're cool like Naboo!)

    Has a vs. thread ever 'ended' before? I've never followed one of any consequence. What fun!

    Why do you want to actively prolong the thread, TP? Seems a silly exercise, no need to add nothing-posts. Everyone's been clamoring for its cessation for pages and pages now, you'd think they'd let it peter off peacefully. I guess it only needs like 10 5 posts for page 40, but whoop-de-doo. Who's counting?

    EDIT: Well tickle me a hypocrite, I'm counting. I just dinged. It's fitting, of course, that I go Ogre because of this thread.
    Last edited by Ditto; 2007-12-12 at 12:33 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by zyphyr View Post
    They don't actually love Gold, they only say that to get it into bed.
    John Dies At The End
    Sauron vs. Voldemort

  27. - Top - End - #1167
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    Default Re: Sauron vs Voldemort

    Quote Originally Posted by Ditto View Post
    Sorry, EE, but WG gets the throne to himself. Rowan served the nomination, but I don't think I could have voted for anyone else. (We vote for kings around here. We're cool like Naboo!)

    Has a vs. thread ever 'ended' before? I've never followed one of any consequence. What fun!

    Why do you want to actively prolong the thread, TP? Seems a silly exercise, no need to add nothing-posts. Everyone's been clamoring for its cessation for pages and pages now, you'd think they'd let it peter off peacefully. I guess it only needs like 10 5 posts for page 40, but whoop-de-doo. Who's counting?

    EDIT: Well tickle me a hypocrite, I'm counting. I just dinged. It's fitting, of course, that I go Ogre because of this thread.
    I want that 40 pages. I also want you to admit Voldemort didn't stand a chance.

    But I also want to act like an obsessive.

    EDIT: And any planet that spawns jar jar is NOT cool.
    Last edited by turkishproverb; 2007-12-12 at 12:36 AM.
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    by Akirim.elfKickstarter Avatar by Savannah
    Quote Originally Posted by Nerd-o-rama View Post
    Star Wars canon is one of those things where people have started to realize that the guys in charge are so far off their rockers that it's probably for the best to ignore them.
    Quote Originally Posted by Triscuitable View Post

    OH GOD THEY'RE COMING! RUN! RUN, TURKISHPROVERB, RUN!

    Quote Originally Posted by Maxios View Post
    GENERIC FLAMING COMMENT, POSSIBLY INVOLVING YOUR MOTHER !

  28. - Top - End - #1168
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    Default Re: Sauron vs Voldemort

    Well, the outer land-y part is cool. The inner part is just messed up. The planet's core is a *network of watery caverns*... WTF? Boss Nass probably ate someone for his Bossness, which isn't nearly as cool as electing absolute rulers.
    Quote Originally Posted by zyphyr View Post
    They don't actually love Gold, they only say that to get it into bed.
    John Dies At The End
    Sauron vs. Voldemort

  29. - Top - End - #1169
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    Default Re: Sauron vs Voldemort

    Any race that gives its supreme rulers the title of Boss has to be given some credit. It's like A Connecticut Yankee in King Arthur's Court.

    Also, somebody has cooked up a rational explanation for Jar Jar Binks (note that you'll have to read a bit further to get the actual explanation bit).

    Forty pages is all very well, but the novelty of a versus thread in which everyone decided to bring it to a conclusion... ! We could probably send that in to the Guinness Book of World Records or something.
    Avatar by Ifni. Thanks!

  30. - Top - End - #1170
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    Default Re: Sauron vs Voldemort

    Quote Originally Posted by The_Snark View Post
    Any race that gives its supreme rulers the title of Boss has to be given some credit. It's like A Connecticut Yankee in King Arthur's Court.

    Also, somebody has cooked up a rational explanation for Jar Jar Binks (note that you'll have to read a bit further to get the actual explanation bit).

    Forty pages is all very well, but the novelty of a versus thread in which everyone decided to bring it to a conclusion... ! We could probably send that in to the Guinness Book of World Records or something.
    And the fact it didn't end with one of us Assassinating Ditto over his refusal to relent seems to imply the uncertainty principle.


    P.S. Boss Nass eating someone for rulership would explain the weight....
    Avatar by Akirim.Elf
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    by Akirim.elfKickstarter Avatar by Savannah
    Quote Originally Posted by Nerd-o-rama View Post
    Star Wars canon is one of those things where people have started to realize that the guys in charge are so far off their rockers that it's probably for the best to ignore them.
    Quote Originally Posted by Triscuitable View Post

    OH GOD THEY'RE COMING! RUN! RUN, TURKISHPROVERB, RUN!

    Quote Originally Posted by Maxios View Post
    GENERIC FLAMING COMMENT, POSSIBLY INVOLVING YOUR MOTHER !

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