The Order of the Stick: Utterly Dwarfed
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  1. - Top - End - #1051
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    Default Re: MitD XIII: Learning is happening

    Quote Originally Posted by Jasdoif View Post
    Demogorgon is presented in Fiendish Codex I, superseding the original presentation in the 3.0 Book of Vile Darkness.
    FC2, at least, suggests the BoVD versions of Archfiends are "the real thing" and that the FC1 and the FC2 versions themselves are "very powerful aspects, but still aspects". Only a bit of work is required to convert BoVD fiends to 3.5.


    Dragon Magazine also has stats for a number of demon lords, including Demogorgon, which used BoVD as a starting point. Their versions of them tend to be a little more powerful than BoVD versions.
    Last edited by hamishspence; 2019-08-24 at 02:20 PM.
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  2. - Top - End - #1052
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    Default Re: MitD XIII: Learning is happening

    Quote Originally Posted by hamishspence View Post
    FC2, at least, suggests the BoVD versions of Archfiends are "the real thing" and that the FC1 and the FC2 versions themselves are "very powerful aspects, but still aspects". Only a bit of work is required to convert BoVD fiends to 3.5.
    FC1 explicitly says "Some of the demon lords described in this chapter originally appeared in Book of Vile Darkness. They have been updated to conform with the revised (v3.5) D&D rules." (There's also a little section in the chapter for increasing their stats to an arbitrary level for use in an epic-level campaign, but I think that's the book punting on whether there's an "actual" power level they have)
    Last edited by Jasdoif; 2019-08-24 at 02:40 PM.

  3. - Top - End - #1053
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    Default Re: MitD XIII: Learning is happening

    It also says they are less powerful than their previous incarnations, having been redesigned to make them"end level bosses for non-epic campaigns" and provides additional rules for upgrading them to make them more suitable for epic campaigns again.

    In the context of Dragon Magazine's Demonomicon rules, and of FC2's explicitly stating that their archfiends are aspects only, I think it's safe to say that FC1 archfiends should be thought of as powerful aspects normally - they're only "the real thing" in games that are capped at 20th level.
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  4. - Top - End - #1054
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    Default Re: MitD XIII: Learning is happening

    Quote Originally Posted by hamishspence View Post
    It also says they are less powerful than their previous incarnations, having been redesigned to make them"end level bosses for non-epic campaigns" and provides additional rules for upgrading them to make them more suitable for epic campaigns again.

    In the context of Dragon Magazine's Demonomicon rules, and of FC2's explicitly stating that their archfiends are aspects only, I think it's safe to say that FC1 archfiends should be thought of as powerful aspects normally - they're only "the real thing" in games that are capped at 20th level.
    Right. None of which supports using the 3.0 version over the 3.5 version, especially if the 3.0->3.5 conversion is compulsory in the setting....Which cuts down the number of sources Grey_Wolf_c might need to look at, which is the reason I mentioned the supersession in the first place.

  5. - Top - End - #1055
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    Default Re: MitD XIII: Learning is happening

    Quote Originally Posted by Jasdoif View Post
    Right. None of which supports using the 3.0 version over the 3.5 version, especially if the 3.0->3.5 conversion is compulsory in the setting....


    The "spawn of" bit would throw everything out of whack though. Demogorgon's children generally have different stats from him. At least the few that have appeared in Dungeon or Dragon.

    Main reason I'd favour BoVD over FC2? It's actually appeared in-strip (the Eye of Fear and Flame came from BOVD and Redcloak had it to hand when explaining how he created the three undead decoys.) FC2 was published much later, well after strip 100, so is less likely to be where The Giant got ideas from.
    Last edited by hamishspence; 2019-08-24 at 03:06 PM.
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  6. - Top - End - #1056
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    Default Re: MitD XIII: Learning is happening

    Quote Originally Posted by hamishspence View Post
    Main reason I'd favour BoVD over FC2? It's actually appeared in-strip (the Eye of Fear and Flame came from BOVD and Redcloak had it to hand when explaining how he created the three undead decoys.) FC2 was published much later, well after strip 100, so is less likely to be where The Giant got ideas from.
    Good point, it's probably BoVD instead of FC2 if either were the case.

    I want to point that the deadline is "about" strip 100 instead of precisely at it, so while it doesn't cover much it does mean that things that were released within a few weeks might be fine, making the Athasian Nightmare Beast a bit more plausible than it is already. Of course, that doesn't completely resolve any issues - it just makes things that are on the fence time wise sliiiightly more compatible.
    An explanation of why MitD being any larger than Huge is implausible.

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  7. - Top - End - #1057
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    Default Re: MitD XIII: Learning is happening

    Oh no, the vote happened while I was away on vacation and now I have to wait a few months again to suggest not listing 'huge' size as a con anymore...
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  8. - Top - End - #1058
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    Default Re: MitD XIII: Learning is happening

    Quote Originally Posted by Joerg View Post
    Oh no, the vote happened while I was away on vacation and now I have to wait a few months again to suggest not listing 'huge' size as a con anymore...
    The Magic 8 Ball and the fortune cookies both suggest that MitD will still be unknown by December.
    An explanation of why MitD being any larger than Huge is implausible.

    See my extended signature here! May contain wit, candor, and somewhere from 52 to 8127 walruses.

    Purple is humorous descriptions made up on the fly
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    Blue is irony and sarcasm


    "I think, therefore I am,
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  9. - Top - End - #1059
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    Default Re: MitD XIII: Learning is happening

    Quote Originally Posted by Squire Doodad View Post
    The Magic 8 Ball and the fortune cookies both suggest that MitD will still be unknown by December.
    What! No way, I was sure it would be revealed next comic.

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    Default Re: MitD XIII: Learning is happening

    Quote Originally Posted by Schroeswald View Post
    What! No way, I was sure it would be revealed next comic.
    If you are really, really uncertain, we could ask the 18th level Incarnum user, but our current sources are more reliable.
    Last edited by Squire Doodad; 2019-08-28 at 07:15 PM.
    An explanation of why MitD being any larger than Huge is implausible.

    See my extended signature here! May contain wit, candor, and somewhere from 52 to 8127 walruses.

    Purple is humorous descriptions made up on the fly
    Green is serious talk about hypothetical
    Blue is irony and sarcasm


    "I think, therefore I am,
    I walk, therefore I stand,
    I sleep, therefore I dream;
    I joke, therefore I meme."
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  11. - Top - End - #1061
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    Default Re: MitD XIII: Learning is happening

    Quote Originally Posted by Squire Doodad View Post
    If you are really, really uncertain, we could ask the 18th level Incarnum user, but our current sources are more reliable.
    Have we used psionics yet? Are they in this setting?

  12. - Top - End - #1062
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    Default Re: MitD XIII: Learning is happening

    Quote Originally Posted by Schroeswald View Post
    Have we used psionics yet? Are they in this setting?
    Well...um...yes. We've used pisonics. We've also had instances of psionics being analyzed. GW could do a better explanation than me though.
    Last edited by Squire Doodad; 2019-08-28 at 07:22 PM.
    An explanation of why MitD being any larger than Huge is implausible.

    See my extended signature here! May contain wit, candor, and somewhere from 52 to 8127 walruses.

    Purple is humorous descriptions made up on the fly
    Green is serious talk about hypothetical
    Blue is irony and sarcasm


    "I think, therefore I am,
    I walk, therefore I stand,
    I sleep, therefore I dream;
    I joke, therefore I meme."
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  13. - Top - End - #1063
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    Default Re: MitD XIII: Learning is happening

    Quote Originally Posted by Squire Doodad View Post
    Well...um...yes. We've used pisonics. We've also had instances of psionics being analyzed. GW could do a better explanation than me though.
    I took the question for a joke, since it is referencing and answered in the strip they are quoting.

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    Last edited by Grey_Wolf_c; 2019-08-28 at 07:23 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by woweedd View Post
    I would say that's the dumbest theory Grey Wolf's heard, but, let's be honest: It's Grey Wolf. They've probably heard dumber theories today. Point is, neat idea, but it's a real stretch.
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  14. - Top - End - #1064
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    Default Re: MitD XIII: Learning is happening

    Quote Originally Posted by Squire Doodad View Post
    Well...um...yes. We've used pisonics. We've also had instances of psionics being analyzed. GW could do a better explanation than me though.
    Of course we have, lets use the 18th level Incarnum just in case, might not be as accurate but it could give us hope to get through the gap between Books 6 and 7.

  15. - Top - End - #1065
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    Default Re: MitD XIII: Learning is happening

    My money's on the Athasian Nightmare Beast.

    On that subject, do we think it's possible that the Giant decided MiTD was a Nightmare Beast prior to the Athasian version's publication, and once it came out he switched and used that version instead because it fit what he wanted the monster to do better?

    It doesn't contradict the wording of his statement. If hypothetically, he had decided that the MiTD was an awakened Gorgonopsid, initially chosen Gorgonops because it was the only variety of the creature in an official DnD sourcebook, but a few months after the decision was made WOTC put out Bakker's Guide to Dinosaurs, Placoderms and Proto-Mammals which included an Inostrancevia, that has access to Trenchant Political Analysis, and since that fit much better with the climatic moment of Book 7 where MiTD convinces Redcloak to abandon the plan with a thrilling 83 page speech about fishery subsidies and federal import tax than Gorgonops' Rudimentary Political Analysis ability he switched which variety of Gorgonopsid MITD was, you could argue that's still "figuring out what the monster was", even if the specific variety, statblock and all the fiddly little details used weren't determined until later

    That said I think it does go against the spirit of the statement, and I don't know if that sort of "well, technically..." sort of rules lawyering fits the Giant's modus operandi for these things.
    Last edited by BasiliskSoldier; 2019-08-30 at 01:01 AM.

  16. - Top - End - #1066
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    Default Re: MitD XIII: Learning is happening

    I wonder if MiTD could end up getting some class levels out of all that Kraagor's Tomb raiding he's been doing with Team Evil. If Xykon is getting XP maybe he is too. Maybe he'll take a level in Paladin to be like Mr. Stiffly.

  17. - Top - End - #1067
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    Default Re: MitD XIII: Learning is happening

    Quote Originally Posted by CriticalFailure View Post
    I wonder if MiTD could end up getting some class levels out of all that Kraagor's Tomb raiding he's been doing with Team Evil. If Xykon is getting XP maybe he is too. Maybe he'll take a level in Paladin to be like Mr. Stiffly.
    MitD is going to get a level in Shadowdancer (whatever Roy's assassin was) of course, because he's the only source of narratively-occurring shadow in the comic.
    An explanation of why MitD being any larger than Huge is implausible.

    See my extended signature here! May contain wit, candor, and somewhere from 52 to 8127 walruses.

    Purple is humorous descriptions made up on the fly
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    I joke, therefore I meme."
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  18. - Top - End - #1068
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    Default Re: MitD XIII: Learning is happening

    Quote Originally Posted by Squire Doodad View Post
    MitD is going to get a level in Shadowdancer (whatever Roy's assassin was) of course, because he's the only source of narratively-occurring shadow in the comic.
    The real question is how Shadowdancer assassin escaped from the MiTD, he jumped into a shadow, and the only known shadow was around MiTD at the time, and survives to run away from assassinating the King of Nowhere again. The MiTD would be useless as a Shadowdancer because the shadow would have to already be someplace else (but not the democracy, he can travel to kingdoms too) for him to travel into it.
    Spoiler: Read this if I've posted a theory in the post above
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    Quote Originally Posted by Schroeswald View Post
    I recognize that Conservation of Detail is Overrated, but I find the event that I am using as evidence for my theory above important enough/given enough focus to qualify for what I call Elanís Exception, ďWho wastes perfectly good foreshadowing like that?Ē. Also I have never correctly predicted any event in any piece of media so take this theory with a grain of salt (I call this Peeleeís Ye Old Reminder).

    Quote Originally Posted by Squire Doodad View Post
    "A sufficiently big wedge of cheese is indistinguishable from an aircraft."

  19. - Top - End - #1069
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    Default Re: MitD XIII: Learning is happening

    Quote Originally Posted by Schroeswald View Post
    The real question is how Shadowdancer assassin escaped from the MiTD, he jumped into a shadow, and the only known shadow was around MiTD at the time, and survives to run away from assassinating the King of Nowhere again. The MiTD would be useless as a Shadowdancer because the shadow would have to already be someplace else (but not the democracy, he can travel to kingdoms too) for him to travel into it.
    So...the Shadowdancer should work with MitD to be an emergency escape route. However, MitD himself cannot be a Shadowdancer without evading with extreme precision (jump from one edge of the shadow to the other).
    An explanation of why MitD being any larger than Huge is implausible.

    See my extended signature here! May contain wit, candor, and somewhere from 52 to 8127 walruses.

    Purple is humorous descriptions made up on the fly
    Green is serious talk about hypothetical
    Blue is irony and sarcasm


    "I think, therefore I am,
    I walk, therefore I stand,
    I sleep, therefore I dream;
    I joke, therefore I meme."
    -Squire Doodad

  20. - Top - End - #1070
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    Default Re: MitD XIII: Learning is happening

    Quote Originally Posted by Squire Doodad View Post
    So...the Shadowdancer should work with MitD to be an emergency escape route. However, MitD himself cannot be a Shadowdancer without evading with extreme precision (jump from one edge of the shadow to the other).
    If you wanted to travel to the MiTD it'd be really effective too, presuming you were at maximum 160 ft away from him.
    Spoiler: Read this if I've posted a theory in the post above
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    Quote Originally Posted by Schroeswald View Post
    I recognize that Conservation of Detail is Overrated, but I find the event that I am using as evidence for my theory above important enough/given enough focus to qualify for what I call Elanís Exception, ďWho wastes perfectly good foreshadowing like that?Ē. Also I have never correctly predicted any event in any piece of media so take this theory with a grain of salt (I call this Peeleeís Ye Old Reminder).

    Quote Originally Posted by Squire Doodad View Post
    "A sufficiently big wedge of cheese is indistinguishable from an aircraft."

  21. - Top - End - #1071
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    Default Re: MitD XIII: Learning is happening

    any bets on mitd being an unknowable creature from the far realms of whom no man may what of?
    Sone form of shoggoth or other lovecraftianesque creature?
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  22. - Top - End - #1072
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    Default Re: MitD XIII: Learning is happening

    Quote Originally Posted by Wizard_Lizard View Post
    any bets on mitd being an unknowable creature from the far realms of whom no man may what of?
    Sone form of shoggoth or other lovecraftianesque creature?
    Start of Darkness shows that (some) professional monster hunters can recognize his species with a simple look. So did Oona even, so no.
    Last edited by Fyraltari; 2019-09-11 at 09:04 AM.
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  23. - Top - End - #1073
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    Default Re: MitD XIII: Learning is happening

    Quote Originally Posted by Wizard_Lizard View Post
    any bets on mitd being an unknowable creature from the far realms of whom no man may what of?
    Sone form of shoggoth or other lovecraftianesque creature?
    As per the listings in the first post, several have been suggested (Hunting Horror, Starspawn) & bet on (Hunting Horror). Depending on how you feel about the Neh-Thalggu and maybe even the Protean as closest D&D equivalents, they might count as well.

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    Last edited by Grey_Wolf_c; 2019-09-11 at 09:30 AM. Reason: somehow missed DaggerPen's bet on HH
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    Quote Originally Posted by woweedd View Post
    I would say that's the dumbest theory Grey Wolf's heard, but, let's be honest: It's Grey Wolf. They've probably heard dumber theories today. Point is, neat idea, but it's a real stretch.
    Ceterum autem censeo Hilgya malefica est

  24. - Top - End - #1074
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    Default Re: MitD XIII: Learning is happening

    Quote Originally Posted by Wizard_Lizard View Post
    any bets on mitd being an unknowable creature from the far realms of whom no man may what of?
    Sone form of shoggoth or other lovecraftianesque creature?
    Implausible based on the hunter's comments.
    There have been suggestions, but most of them don't quite hold up.

    Also, Lovecraftian is a word. Thanks Scribblenauts!
    An explanation of why MitD being any larger than Huge is implausible.

    See my extended signature here! May contain wit, candor, and somewhere from 52 to 8127 walruses.

    Purple is humorous descriptions made up on the fly
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    I sleep, therefore I dream;
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  25. - Top - End - #1075
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    Default Re: MitD XIII: Learning is happening

    They could be particularly well read hunters.

    Maybe itís a giant space squid. What science fiction is truly about.

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    Default Re: MitD XIII: Learning is happening

    Quote Originally Posted by CriticalFailure View Post
    They could be particularly well read hunters.

    Maybe itís a giant space squid. What science fiction is truly about.
    There's a certain level where "particularly well read" is a feature that denotes a specific character instead of an instance of a stock character.
    An explanation of why MitD being any larger than Huge is implausible.

    See my extended signature here! May contain wit, candor, and somewhere from 52 to 8127 walruses.

    Purple is humorous descriptions made up on the fly
    Green is serious talk about hypothetical
    Blue is irony and sarcasm


    "I think, therefore I am,
    I walk, therefore I stand,
    I sleep, therefore I dream;
    I joke, therefore I meme."
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  27. - Top - End - #1077
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    Default Re: MitD XIII: Learning is happening

    Quote Originally Posted by CriticalFailure View Post
    They could be particularly well read hunters.

    Maybe itís a giant space squid. What science fiction is truly about.
    Oona may be defying racial stereotype of bugbears, and has a bachelors degree in eldritch abominations!

    #notallbugbearsarestupid
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    Default Re: MitD XIII: Learning is happening

    Quote Originally Posted by Wizard_Lizard View Post
    Oona may be defying racial stereotype of bugbears, and has a bachelors degree in eldritch abominations!

    #notallbugbearsarestupid
    While that would be delightful, it also gets into the murky circumstances of "can we assume this without violating the guessing game?". It does, however, suggest that MitD is somewhat exotic but not to the point that his kind wouldn't be present in the Monster Hollow.
    An explanation of why MitD being any larger than Huge is implausible.

    See my extended signature here! May contain wit, candor, and somewhere from 52 to 8127 walruses.

    Purple is humorous descriptions made up on the fly
    Green is serious talk about hypothetical
    Blue is irony and sarcasm


    "I think, therefore I am,
    I walk, therefore I stand,
    I sleep, therefore I dream;
    I joke, therefore I meme."
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  29. - Top - End - #1079
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    Default Re: MitD XIII: Learning is happening

    Quote Originally Posted by Squire Doodad View Post
    While that would be delightful, it also gets into the murky circumstances of "can we assume this without violating the guessing game?". It does, however, suggest that MitD is somewhat exotic but not to the point that his kind wouldn't be present in the Monster Hollow.
    I guess... But what if mitd is a monster with class levels?
    and knows spells like teleport....
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    Default Re: MitD XIII: Learning is happening

    Quote Originally Posted by Squire Doodad View Post
    MitD is going to get a level in Shadowdancer (whatever Roy's assassin was) of course, because he's the only source of narratively-occurring shadow in the comic.
    But how can we know if MitD is dancing inside all those shadows?
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