MitD XIII: Learning is happening

[woweedd]

Relevance?

So he might have picked up some knowledge of which spells are divine, just by knowing which spells he’s seen Redcloak cast, but not Xykon?

[Crusher]

Well im in bed nursing a killer fever, so I decided to reread some parts of the comic. I noticed that, in the strip where Redcloak explains who the 3 skeletons are (431, I have no idea how to link with my phone) MitD, recognizes the spells the huecuva casts as divine spells.
I know it doesnt add much to anything, but do the prefered candidates so far have a high spellcraft check? Can a protean (which I dislike as an option, mostly out of a gut feeling) achieve that somehow?

Hmm, that's interesting. The suspicion has been for a while that MitD has ranks (and possibly a lot of them) in Spellcraft, due to it instantly recognizing and understanding the half a ritual Tsukiko was working on.

It can be explained in other ways, like, hypothetically, if MitD was some kind of minion of the Dark One or whatever or just has a metric crap-ton of INT. But Spellcraft ranks is the cleanest answer, and this find supports that idea.

Sorry about the fever. At least something positive came out of it!

[Quartz]

Relevance?

It has seen Redcloak cast spells.

[Squire Doodad]

It has seen Redcloak cast spells.

Also he may have occasionally and passively read Redcloak and Xykon's minds, and while MitD would disregard most of it as being stuff he doesn't know, the distinction between Arcane and Divine spells would become obvious after enough time has passed. He probably also knows some other things (like the true Plan and the half a ritual bit) but simply not know what to do with them nor even given these ideas much thought.

[Aveline]

Also he may have occasionally and passively read Redcloak and Xykon's minds, and while MitD would disregard most of it as being stuff he doesn't know, the distinction between Arcane and Divine spells would become obvious after enough time has passed. He probably also knows some other things (like the true Plan and the half a ritual bit) but simply not know what to do with them nor even given these ideas much thought.

I think observing Redcloak and Xykon cast spells would be enough for him to infer that certain spells may be divine-only.

MitD does probably have some kind of broader magical knowledge, though, since he recognized the ritual as being only half. I think this favors having spellcraft ranks more than recognizing a spell as it's cast does. (This is also discussed in section 2b.)

[Squire Doodad]

I think observing Redcloak and Xykon cast spells would be enough for him to infer that certain spells may be divine-only.

MitD does probably have some kind of broader magical knowledge, though, since he recognized the ritual as being only half. I think this favors having spellcraft ranks more than recognizing a spell as it's cast does. (This is also discussed in section 2b.)

True, but then again the "half a ritual" could be Spellcraft, or it could be MitD reading RC's mind, in which case the spellcraft is irrelevant- MitD isn't recognizing it as a specific type of spell, just that it is part of a ritual instead of the whole thing. Thus, while Spellcraft is handy, it is not strictly imperative if mind-reading is applicable, or if a similar thing is available.

[Aveline]

True, but then again the "half a ritual" could be Spellcraft, or it could be MitD reading RC's mind, in which case the spellcraft is irrelevant- MitD isn't recognizing it as a specific type of spell, just that it is part of a ritual instead of the whole thing. Thus, while Spellcraft is handy, it is not strictly imperative if mind-reading is applicable, or if a similar thing is available.

Hmm... This could explain why he has knowledge of the Astral Plane as well. To those more versed in D&D than I: can knowledge of the planes be expressed as ranks in spellcraft, or just Knowledge (the planes)?

[Qwertystop]

Hmm... This could explain why he has knowledge of the Astral Plane as well. To those more versed in D&D than I: can knowledge of the planes be expressed as ranks in spellcraft, or just Knowledge (the planes)?

Spellcraft could reasonably be treated like a Knowledge skill for knowledge about spells. I'd judge that as sufficient to know that other planes exist (because there's spells to travel to them and summon things from them), perhaps something about their summonable residents, and maybe a bit about how they relate to spellcasting (if e.g. some non-summoning spell works by drawing energy from a plane rather than creating it ex nihilo), but little or nothing about the experience of actually being there.

None of that is from rules, though, just how I see it. If there's rules for that I don't know them.

[Squire Doodad]

Spellcraft could reasonably be treated like a Knowledge skill for knowledge about spells. I'd judge that as sufficient to know that other planes exist (because there's spells to travel to them and summon things from them), perhaps something about their summonable residents, and maybe a bit about how they relate to spellcasting (if e.g. some non-summoning spell works by drawing energy from a plane rather than creating it ex nihilo), but little or nothing about the experience of actually being there.

None of that is from rules, though, just how I see it. If there's rules for that I don't know them.

This is D&D though- if there are not precise rules, but they more or less work if you bend the rules there ARE a little, then it tends to work. So, knowledge about magic~knowledge about the planes in the ways that are relevant to magic.

[Aspheric]

So I've been thinking about the Hagunemnon's ability to use Detect Thoughts. Rereading the description, I noticed this line in the spell's description:

A target’s Will save prevents you from reading its thoughts, and you must cast detect thoughts again to have another chance. Creatures of animal intelligence (Int 1 or 2) have simple, instinctual thoughts that you can pick up.

Redcloak should have a fairly high Will Save (as a cleric with a high Wisdom score). The save DC is still high enough (22) that Recloak can't auto-succeed it, and while the description doesn't specify whether he'd be found out if the target makes their save, though it also underlines how circumstantial the Hagunemnon's abilities are in making it work as a candidate. It needs to Alter Shape into the right creature, at the right time, while having succeeded with Detect Thoughts on Redcloak at the right moment to learn about the monster he needed to become at that right time. It's not impossible for that to happen, of course, but I just can't wrap my head around it. I feel like him having the appropriate knowledge or spellcraft skill makes more sense with MitD saying he doesn't like to think in response to O-Chul, though I know I can't substantiate that beyond my own personal opinion.

On another, maybe even more over-thinking-it note, am I the only one bothered by the depiction of the Slaad here? I realize that harping on about eyes and the art style is maybe tired at this point, but the position (not to mention size) of the eyes does seem strange in comparison to MitD. I think this conflicts with their depiction out-of-comic, but I was curious if this had come up before.

[hamishspence]

I think the point of the high-set eyes is to exaggerate their froggishness. Same with the bent legs.

Compare to MM Slaad:

Spoiler

Show

Lower-set eyes and more humanoid legs.

Elan's "slaad conscience" is similarly froggy:

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0068.html

[Rob Redblade]

I realize that harping on about eyes and the art style is maybe tired at this point, but the position (not to mention size) of the eyes does seem strange in comparison to MitD. I think this conflicts with their depiction out-of-comic, but I was curious if this had come up before.

The MitD's eyes position and size were established before Rich determined what the creature species was. If he were to change it overnight it would have given away the mystery.

Like a broken record I'll repeat my personal theory on this: we never saw the actual eyes. It makes no sense for the reader not to see any other part of MitD but the eyes if he's completely concealed in shadows. I view them more as virtual depictions of his emotions and current status (where he's looking at, if he's asleep, what he feels right now and so on...).

[Aspheric]

The MitD's eyes position and size were established before Rich determined what the creature species was. If he were to change it overnight it would have given away the mystery.

Rich is also on record saying that nothing the MitD does before he made that choice contradicts it. If he didn't want to give away that MitD is a Slaad, or something else with distinct eyes, why draw other members of its species differently?

Like a broken record I'll repeat my personal theory on this: we never saw the actual eyes. It makes no sense for the reader not to see any other part of MitD but the eyes if he's completely concealed in shadows. I view them more as virtual depictions of his emotions and current status (where he's looking at, if he's asleep, what he feels right now and so on...).

How would the demon roaches know that MitD was responsible for the Escape if not by seeing his eyes glow? I can see the logic behind this on a meta perspective, since obviously it gives Rich more visual expressions for MitD. However, this also seems to stretch the clause in the first post that Rich said it was possible to guess MitD's species. This kind of theory tends to precede particular conclusions in my experience, so I'm curious; where does this go for you? Is there a particular candidate that you have in mind that is (or would be) disqualified for having eyes that don't match MitD's?

[Squire Doodad]

How would the demon roaches know that MitD was responsible for the Escape if not by seeing his eyes glow? I can see the logic behind this on a meta perspective, since obviously it gives Rich more visual expressions for MitD. However, this also seems to stretch the clause in the first post that Rich said it was possible to guess MitD's species. This kind of theory tends to precede particular conclusions in my experience, so I'm curious; where does this go for you? Is there a particular candidate that you have in mind that is (or would be) disqualified for having eyes that don't match MitD's?

The Demon Roaches are inherently genre-savvy and can read the Fourth Wall like its a large print book. And they can see in the dark (I think) and are small enough to fit under the umbrella without anyone noticing. The Demon Roaches have at least a 50/50 chance of knowing what MitD is. Not necessarily what he can do, but if there's a weird magical thing happening and everyone who can do weird magical things would have no reason to do so, MitD is the next guess for them.

As for the other bit about the eyes, that basically just limits MitD to things that can have eyes/glowy bits. Not the same color, but eyes that exist or that can appear to be eyes. Which assuming a self-conscious Protean, checks out. Assuming a Slaad, checks out. Assuming many, many monsters, checks out. Doesn't help the uvuvuclaudedamm, but it doesn't outright dismiss most plausible candidates they don't have more pressing issues. And even then, there are arguments to be made about minor house rules. A Ha-Naga that has been treated as having lost no STR and shrunk several size categories is overly templated; a creature that typically is interperted to have 12 eyes but some of them are tiny, and so only a couple are visible with two shown through magical darkness? That...mostly works. Not really, but enough that you can't just cry foul when it turns out to be so. Maybe the Magic Darkness is enchanted, or MitD is so that we can see his eyes (Xykon and RC don't want to lose track of him or something)? There are many variables, and a disturbingly large amount of them can be plausibly handwaved.

[Rob Redblade]

Rich is also on record saying that nothing the MitD does before he made that choice contradicts it. If he didn't want to give away that MitD is a Slaad, or something else with distinct eyes, why draw other members of its species differently?

That's a fair point. However, I think it wouldn't be a stretch, to me, if the actual species had red eyes or something like that.

How would the demon roaches know that MitD was responsible for the Escape if not by seeing his eyes glow? I can see the logic behind this on a meta perspective, since obviously it gives Rich more visual expressions for MitD. However, this also seems to stretch the clause in the first post that Rich said it was possible to guess MitD's species.

The demon roaches were right next to MitD when he said "you need to ESCAPE", I don't think they needed to see him. This doesn't contradict my theory at all. We saw the eyes getting fuzzy and glowy when the escape happened. That was meant to clearly indicates, to us readers, that MitD is the sole reason for the escape. I'm fairly set in my "actual eyes are in fact concealed in shadows just like the rest of Monster-san; what we see are a placeholder" theory and I don't want to fight people to accept it. Previous drawn stories have used eyes in pitch black where it was meant only for the viewers to know what's going on with the character(s).

This kind of theory tends to precede particular conclusions in my experience, so I'm curious; where does this go for you? Is there a particular candidate that you have in mind that is (or would be) disqualified for having eyes that don't match MitD's?

I do not have a candidate proposal that would need to disregard the eyes, no. I think some of the clues are possibly red-herrings. "Like spicy kebabs too close to bed time" screams Athasian Nightmare Beast. The circus scene "don't do anything" screams Protean. I love the mystery game and I love reading these threads about it. I think I would actually be disappointed if someone figured it out with 100% certainty before the reveal. OK, not really disappointed, but I trust in Rich to have crafted a great mystery that might last until the reveal. I think we don't have enough clues and/or we are misinterpreting the ones we already have to figure it out.

[Kish]

The Demon Roaches are inherently genre-savvy and can read the Fourth Wall like its a large print book. And they can see in the dark (I think)

Darkvision cannot see through magical darkness.

[Squire Doodad]

Question: I know that "Grey Wolf, I'm So Sorry" and the like were not permitted, but for MitD XIV would something not inherently negative but with Grey Wolf's name (like, "By the Power of Grey Wolf" or something) still be acceptable?

[Aspheric]

The Demon Roaches are inherently genre-savvy and can read the Fourth Wall like its a large print book. And they can see in the dark (I think) and are small enough to fit under the umbrella without anyone noticing. The Demon Roaches have at least a 50/50 chance of knowing what MitD is. Not necessarily what he can do, but if there's a weird magical thing happening and everyone who can do weird magical things would have no reason to do so, MitD is the next guess for them.

Kish already pointed out the problem with darkvision, but I'm not sure breaking the Fourth Wall means anything here. Characters in the comic break the Fourth Wall with meta-jokes and comments regularly, that doesn't necessarily give them special knowledge of what's going on every time. The Demon Roaches are pretty clearly looking at the MitD immediately after the Escape happens. Sure, they could know about the Escape because they have meta-textual context for what he is capable of, and what could have happened in that moment. Or, they could have seen him do it. Sure, it's a possibility, but the latter seems more likely.

That's a fair point. However, I think it wouldn't be a stretch, to me, if the actual species had red eyes or something like that.

The demon roaches were right next to MitD when he said "you need to ESCAPE", I don't think they needed to see him. This doesn't contradict my theory at all. We saw the eyes getting fuzzy and glowy when the escape happened. That was meant to clearly indicates, to us readers, that MitD is the sole reason for the escape. I'm fairly set in my "actual eyes are in fact concealed in shadows just like the rest of Monster-san; what we see are a placeholder" theory and I don't want to fight people to accept it. Previous drawn stories have used eyes in pitch black where it was meant only for the viewers to know what's going on with the character(s).

I might have misled you, so allow me to rephrase: I think Rich has a particular visual style when it comes to drawing other D&D creatures, fantasy properties, and so on. These may or may not line up with monsters as they appear elsewhere. For instance, Thor shares visual inspiration from both the Marvel comics and his depictions from Norse myth. Rich clearly isn't totally faithful to the visual depictions of the various monsters he takes from sourcebooks, or wherever else; meaning, as you pointed out, that prior depictions of certain monsters may not line up perfectly with how he's drawn them in the comic. MitD could be an Uvuudaum with eyes that can read, or a Protean with two stable pair of eyes that don't shift with the rest of his body, etc. Unless I'm mistaken, I believe we agree here.

However, we also have visual references for creatures in the comic itself, and so it makes sense to compare their appearances to MitD. Rich's Slaads have accentuated froggish features, especially their eyes, whose position and size don't line up to MitD's eyes. It's true that other comics/graphic novels/etc. use virtual facial features to stand in place of something we can't see, or doesn't have a face, as you say; but when has Rich done this? What points to this visual technique being utilized, not just in the comic but for MitD specifically, that leads you to think this is the case? If this theory argues for a certain creature, I could see why you'd get behind a specific theory. Since you aren't doing this, and you don't seem invested in convincing people either way, I'm just curious why you mentioned it as a possibility.

[b_jonas]

Hey guys. I found more evidence that the MitD might be a half-dragon. We know that the MitD eats just about anything, except for babies. We learn from the dialog between Hinjo and Elan in #599 seventeenth and eighteenth panel that ordinary saltwater piranhas don't eat the skeleton and armor of a human, but dire half-dragon bone-eating saltwater werepiranhas do eat them. This shows that in the Stickiverse, half-dragons are likely less picky eaters than their base creature. That the eating habits come from the dragon blood we can also suspect from #629, where the black dragon mother says that she'll eat Vaarsuvius's children alive. That dragon then also ate Vaarsuvius whole, while she's alive and flaming, in #638. Presumably the MitD devouring Redcloak whole would look similar. Oh, and I almost forgot. The young black dragon swallowed Haley whole too.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

we can also suspect from #629, where the black dragon mother says that she'll eat Vaarsuvius's children alive.

Unfortunately, this conclusively disproves MitD can be a half-dragon, since he doesn't eat babies.
This is intended in the same lighthearted spirit as the b_jonas' post
Grey Wolf

[b_jonas]

Let me think about swallowing humans whole though. The large sized young adult black dragon in the cave could swallow Haley whole. The owlbear in #322 could at least take the whole Vaarsuvius in its mouth. Is either of these supposed to be possible according to the D&D descriptions of those creatures? If not, then perhaps the Giant is also taking liberties when he decided that the MitD could devour Redcloak whole (or at least Xykon would expect that).

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Let me think about swallowing humans whole though. The large sized young adult black dragon in the cave could swallow Haley whole. The owlbear in #322 could at least take the whole Vaarsuvius in its mouth. Is either of these supposed to be possible according to the D&D descriptions of those creatures? If not, then perhaps the Giant is also taking liberties when he decided that the MitD could devour Redcloak whole (or at least Xykon would expect that).

Swallow Whole is an actual ability, but I believe that there are rules for creatures of sufficient size to swallow smaller creatures regardless of whether they have the ability or not.

I'd check, but I can't access D20 SRD from my current location. I think this link will take you to the correct place, but what it actually says, I can't say (even google's cache is blocked)

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm

Grey Wolf

[Peelee]

Swallow Whole is an actual ability, but I believe that there are rules for creatures of sufficient size to swallow smaller creatures regardless of whether they have the ability or not.

I'd check, but I can't access D20 SRD from my current location. I think this link will take you to the correct place, but what it actually says, I can't say (even google's cache is blocked)

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm

Grey Wolf

Well hot dang, the text prediction finally works in my favor. I just had to type my name and bam, the rest just popped up!

Swallow Whole

If a creature with this special attack begins its turn with an opponent held in its mouth (see*Improved Grab), it can attempt a new*grapple check*(as though attempting to pin the opponent). If it succeeds, it swallows its prey, and the opponent takes bite damage. Unless otherwise noted, the opponent can be up to one size category smaller than the swallowing creature. Being swallowed has various consequences, depending on the creature doing the swallowing. A swallowed creature is considered to be*grappled, while the creature that did the swallowing is not. A swallowed creature can try to cut its way free with any light slashing or piercing weapon (the amount of cutting damage required to get free is noted in the creature description), or it can just try to escape the grapple. The Armor Class of the interior of a creature that swallows whole is normally 10 + ½ its*natural armor bonus, with no modifiers for size or Dexterity. If the swallowed creature escapes the grapple, success puts it back in the attacker’s mouth, where it may be bitten or swallowed again.

[b_jonas]

Swallow Whole is an actual ability,

The description of the Froghemoth monster for Pathfinder says that the Froghemoth has a swallow whole ability, which is how the Froghemoth swallowed Roy whole in #963. I haven't seen a D&D 3.5 description of that monster.

but I believe that there are rules for creatures of sufficient size to swallow smaller creatures regardless of whether they have the ability or not.

That would be interesting to know.

[hamishspence]

The Snatch & Swallow feat from Draconomicon, grants Huge dragons that do not already have a Swallow Whole special attack, the ability to swallow their targets.

[Ruck]

If the swallowed creature escapes the grapple, success puts it back in the attacker’s mouth

One of the stranger clauses I've read in the SRD (possibly anywhere).

[Peelee]

One of the stranger clauses I've read in the SRD (possibly anywhere).

If you're swallowed and cut your way out, you come out of the belly (or maybe throat if you can convince the DM). That's your only real escape (unless you can convince the DM to go a more.... unpleasant route). If you're in the mouth, though, you could escape if the creature opens its mouth, or suffer bite damage (though in not-the-mouth you'll probably be suffering some sort of acidic damage. It's like they wanted being swallowed whole to be dreaded, or something.)

But yeah, things that make sense in game can manifest in weird sounding clauses.

[Squire Doodad]

If you're swallowed and cut your way out, you come out of the belly (or maybe throat if you can convince the DM). That's your only real escape (unless you can convince the DM to go a more.... unpleasant route). If you're in the mouth, though, you could escape if the creature opens its mouth, or suffer bite damage (though in not-the-mouth you'll probably be suffering some sort of acidic damage. It's like they wanted being swallowed whole to be dreaded, or something.)

But yeah, things that make sense in game can manifest in weird sounding clauses.

Something about a dual-wielding demon paladin charging at a vampire dire gorilla that is using a springboard to ram into the holy airship?

[Skull the Troll]

I think it's been assumed (and therefore established as an informal standard) that MitD's mental age is equivalent to a human that is somewhere from 11-14, being either somewhat mature or extremely childish depending on which end of that spectrum, but childish nonetheless.

While it sounds easy to project a child going from one age group to the next being like one size category to the next, you would only see a change in any size category at all from newborn to adult (assuming a species is not specifically on the cusp of a certain size). Most animals have significant changes in growth, but going from near maturity (say, a preteen) to an adult would not usually mean a size category change unless they are already on the border.
Think of it in human terms: while humans go through significant growth spurts around puberty, the growth spurts aren't nearly as big as a size category difference. We might grow over 20% of the original height (from a preteen to a fully grown person), but the change from one size category to the next is double the size. A shift in size that significant is like instead of your 11 year old cousin going from 5'3'' to 6'2'' by the time he is 18, he inexplicably goes from 5'3'' to 9'8''. This just gets worse as you go higher, with going from Large to Colossal being tantamount to that 5'3'' kid growing to 40 feet. (For reference, from Large to Gargantuan would be 20 feet. Still implausible.)
So if MitD is a very big Large now, and the adult size is unknown, he could plausibly turn out to be a moderate Huge with some margin of error. But if MitD is a very small Huge now (or even anything that is not a very big Huge), he cannot turn out to be a Gargantuan when he is an adult based on "normal" animal growth.

Square cube law says double the height (retaining correct proportions) quadruples the size. Your point is still well made though.

[hamishspence]

Square cube law says double the height (retaining correct proportions) quadruples the size.

Double height means eight times mass, all other things being equal.