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  1. - Top - End - #31
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    Default Re: MitD XIII: Learning is happening

    Uh too early to vote bc no one has seconded a vote yet (I think).

    If the lotseys ever rise up or something I will unlurk and make some impassioned speech about how violence is never the answer but that I know I cannot stop what the people truly want, I just want no part in it (as thinking about the long term consequences make me queasy).

    If I were to ever make an alternate FBS list, and I wanted any sort of public approval, or at least acknowledgement, I would put at least one con for my pet favorite creature, just saying. Also I appreciate the list of appropriate sources there, that is a great resource for the thread that I think everyone should thank you for.

    Also I think it's funny that a thread about a monster shrouded in darkness has so many people lurking in it who voted at the last second.
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    Default Re: MitD XIII: Learning is happening

    I tend to second Kish's second suggestion, but I don't know if it would currently change anything. Is there a creature which has been excluded from the FBS solely because of this?

    For the first suggestion, I don't know enough about CR to know whether 18 or 15 or 22 would be a good lower limit. And what about creatures which do not have a D&D CR?

    I'd like to suggest that 'huge' size is no longer listed as a con for the FBS creatures. Also, the protean entry should mention (as a con?) that proteans can speak all languages. I don't know whether we need a vote for this.
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  3. - Top - End - #33
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    Default Re: MitD XIII: Learning is happening

    Quote Originally Posted by Kish View Post
    I would like to propose that no D&D creature with a Challenge Rating below 18 should be considered.
    This has been suggested before, and IIRC, at the time I was told that CR, especially in 3rd parties, tends to be so broken that it is not a realiable indicator of power level.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kish View Post
    I would like to propose that the "must not be immune to mind-affecting" requirement be revised to "must not have mind-affecting immunity on the level of a god."

    It's been made clear, with Durkon and Malack's homebrew Mass Death Ward (which, yes, I know is an official D&D spell, but Rich spelled out that he had forgotten that at the time and was treating it as a pure homebrew spell), that the OotS universe is amenable to creating homebrew spells. The spell Xykon used to hypnotize the creature in the darkness already has to be one, since there is no published spell that would have a "like Suggestion, but with a duration in years or longer" effect, and spells that are "mind-affecting, except they also affect undead/affect golems/affect X creature immune to mind-affecting effects" are common; it would be an unusually harsh DM who would declare a spell that was "like Suggestion, but with a duration of [caster level] years and also works on X creature immune to mind-affecting effects" higher than ninth level. However, a spell that could Suggest a god would be high epic.
    My problem with this is that this is a very specialised spell that, if Xkon has spent resources developing and taking up one of his precious spell known slots, you'd think would see more use, but Xykon isn't surrounded by more mind-controlled creatures than he is.

    Quote Originally Posted by Joerg View Post
    I'd like to suggest that 'huge' size is no longer listed as a con for the FBS creatures.
    I'm on the fence about this. Any other takers?

    Quote Originally Posted by Joerg View Post
    the protean entry should mention (as a con?) that proteans can speak all languages.
    The fluff says that proteans speak a constantly changing language that only proteans can figure out.

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    Last edited by Grey_Wolf_c; 2019-03-30 at 10:21 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by woweedd View Post
    I would say that's the dumbest theory Grey Wolf's heard, but, let's be honest: It's Grey Wolf. They've probably heard dumber theories today. Point is, neat idea, but it's a real stretch.
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  4. - Top - End - #34
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    Default Re: MitD XIII: Learning is happening

    Quote Originally Posted by Kish View Post
    Okay. I realize we just had a vote, but I thought of something to add to it on Sunday (i.e., the day before it was to close), so I figured it would be better to put it off to a later vote, and then I thought of something else as well.

    I would like to formally propose a vote for two changes to the FBS.

    First, I would like to propose that no D&D creature with a Challenge Rating below 18 should be considered.

    Spoiler: Reasoning
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    Every scene that showcases the creature's power suggests he's massively powerful in some way. Unveiling a CR 13 glabrezu before a level 9 party and saying "you foolish mortals can never prevail...while I have the power of this on my side" would be dubious at best; telling that same CR 13 creature "we all know how powerful you are, there's nothing in there scarier than you should be" and expecting one to deal with an ancient silver dragon is downright absurd.


    Second, I would like to propose that the "must not be immune to mind-affecting" requirement be revised to "must not have mind-affecting immunity on the level of a god."

    Spoiler: Reasoning
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    It's been made clear, with Durkon and Malack's homebrew Mass Death Ward (which, yes, I know is an official D&D spell, but Rich spelled out that he had forgotten that at the time and was treating it as a pure homebrew spell), that the OotS universe is amenable to creating homebrew spells. The spell Xykon used to hypnotize the creature in the darkness already has to be one, since there is no published spell that would have a "like Suggestion, but with a duration in years or longer" effect, and spells that are "mind-affecting, except they also affect undead/affect golems/affect X creature immune to mind-affecting effects" are common; it would be an unusually harsh DM who would declare a spell that was "like Suggestion, but with a duration of [caster level] years and also works on X creature immune to mind-affecting effects" higher than ninth level. However, a spell that could Suggest a god would be high epic.
    I support the vote for the Challenge Rating change; in my few searches, I tend to ignore anything below 15. Not sure about the mind-affecting thing. If it's home brewed and powerful enough, it can work as is, I think.

    Quote Originally Posted by Grey_Wolf_c View Post
    I'm on the fence about this. Any other takers?Grey Wolf
    /raises hand "Here!"


    2nd edit: What was the purpose of the "mind-controlling scene" then? I mean, if there are no spells in D&D that could work like that, what was the point of using it on MitD? I know Xykon is not the most knowledgeable/savvy guy, it's quite possible he used a new thing he learned to do without knowing that if the betrayal didn't happen in the next fortnight, it would fizzle. I have a feeling that everything "Start of Darkness" has some importance, but I have a hard time justifying the mind-control. Maybe it was simply to show us that Xykon suspects Redcloak might/will betray him? Maybe it was to telegraph that MitD is not a deity of any kind? Maybe it was to show how dumb Xykon is, really? That scene is the more perplexing to me, to be honest.
    Last edited by Rob Redblade; 2019-03-30 at 10:29 AM.

  5. - Top - End - #35
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    Default Re: MitD XIII: Learning is happening

    Quote Originally Posted by Kish View Post
    Okay. I realize we just had a vote, but I thought of something to add to it on Sunday (i.e., the day before it was to close), so I figured it would be better to put it off to a later vote, and then I thought of something else as well.

    I would like to formally propose a vote for two changes to the FBS.

    First, I would like to propose that no D&D creature with a Challenge Rating below 18 should be considered.

    Spoiler: Reasoning
    Show
    Every scene that showcases the creature's power suggests he's massively powerful in some way. Unveiling a CR 13 glabrezu before a level 9 party and saying "you foolish mortals can never prevail...while I have the power of this on my side" would be dubious at best; telling that same CR 13 creature "we all know how powerful you are, there's nothing in there scarier than you should be" and expecting one to deal with an ancient silver dragon is downright absurd.
    I agree, but I would prefer CR 15 "To be safe." OOTS ultimately appears to be a level 12-17ish campaign, and the party seems to be eternally around level 15.

    Second, I would like to propose that the "must not be immune to mind-affecting" requirement be revised to "must not have mind-affecting immunity on the level of a god."

    Spoiler: Reasoning
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    It's been made clear, with Durkon and Malack's homebrew Mass Death Ward (which, yes, I know is an official D&D spell, but Rich spelled out that he had forgotten that at the time and was treating it as a pure homebrew spell), that the OotS universe is amenable to creating homebrew spells. The spell Xykon used to hypnotize the creature in the darkness already has to be one, since there is no published spell that would have a "like Suggestion, but with a duration in years or longer" effect, and spells that are "mind-affecting, except they also affect undead/affect golems/affect X creature immune to mind-affecting effects" are common; it would be an unusually harsh DM who would declare a spell that was "like Suggestion, but with a duration of [caster level] years and also works on X creature immune to mind-affecting effects" higher than ninth level. However, a spell that could Suggest a god would be high epic.
    I agree with the homebrew. Xykon's Moderately Escapable Forcecage is also a thing. The idea of "Xykon's contingent suggestion/command undead" isn't that far-fetched.

    I am in agreement that non-divine mind-effect immunity is not an automatic dealbreaker.

    EDIT:
    Quote Originally Posted by Grey Wolf
    The fluff says that proteans speak a constantly changing language that only proteans can figure out.
    This is true, but they also speak and understand all languages as per the Epic Level Handbook.
    Last edited by 3Power; 2019-03-30 at 10:34 AM.

  6. - Top - End - #36
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    Default Re: MitD XIII: Learning is happening

    But if they normally speak a language that no one can understand, it would be surprising that one would speak in Common. So that would actually be a point in favor of the Protean.
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  7. - Top - End - #37
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    Default Re: MitD XIII: Learning is happening

    Quote Originally Posted by Grey_Wolf_c View Post
    My problem with this is that this is a very specialised spell that, if Xkon has spent resources developing and taking up one of his precious spell known slots, you'd think would see more use, but Xykon isn't surrounded by more mind-controlled creatures than he is.
    Because if it functions like by-the-book Suggestion, what Vaarsuvius did to the young adult dragon aside, it's not mind control--it's just "you'll take this one course of action in response to a trigger." Who else would that be useful on?

    Redcloak, maybe, but Xykon took pains to set up a "will you act to defend me without your mind being influenced by magic?" test for him. And no one else I can think of.
    Quote Originally Posted by Joerg View Post
    And what about creatures which do not have a D&D CR?
    My proposal deliberately excludes non-D&D monsters from any change at all. If it passes, people can go right on proposing Godzilla.
    I'd like to suggest that 'huge' size is no longer listed as a con for the FBS creatures.
    Wasn't that just voted down?
    Last edited by Kish; 2019-03-30 at 11:48 AM.
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    This, in a nutshell.
    Yes, exactly.

  8. - Top - End - #38
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    Default Re: MitD XIII: Learning is happening

    Quote Originally Posted by Kish View Post
    Because if it functions like by-the-book Suggestion, what Vaarsuvius did to the young adult dragon aside, it's not mind control--it's just "you'll take this one course of action in response to a trigger." Who else would that be useful on?
    By RAW/RAI, is there a functional difference between mind control and a spell with the Mind-Affecting and Compulsion tags?
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  9. - Top - End - #39
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    Default Re: MitD XIII: Learning is happening

    Let me rephrase: The spell Xykon demonstrated in Start of Darkness does not make it a plot hole that Xykon is not surrounded by people with swirly eyes who do nothing but whatever he tells them to do.

    If every hobgoblin in Gobbotopia has the same "if Redcloak betrays Xykon eat him and spit out his holy symbol" trigger the creature in the darkness does, how would anyone but Rich even know?
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    This, in a nutshell.
    Yes, exactly.

  10. - Top - End - #40
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    Default Re: MitD XIII: Learning is happening

    Quote Originally Posted by Kish View Post
    Let me rephrase: The spell Xykon demonstrated in Start of Darkness does not make it a plot hole that Xykon is not surrounded by people with swirly eyes who do nothing but whatever he tells them to do.

    If every hobgoblin in Gobbotopia has the same "if Redcloak betrays Xykon eat him and spit out his holy symbol" trigger the creature in the darkness does, how would anyone but Rich even know?

    ...
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    An explanation of why MitD being any larger than Huge is implausible.

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    Default Re: MitD XIII: Learning is happening

    Quote Originally Posted by Kish View Post
    Wasn't that just voted down?
    No. The options related to Size in the previous vote were B: "Remove Upper Size Limit" and C: "Add minimum Size Limit: Large".

    C is clearly distinct from Joerg's proposal.

    If you were thinking of B, then the effect of B would be that creatures of any size can be included in FBS. Joerg's proposal wouldn't allow any new creatures to enter FBS (Huge is already within the acceptable size range), it would just stop "Huge" from being listed as a con in each creature's write-up.

    I agree with the proposal, since MitD does say that his father was "BIG" in capitals, suggesting there may be a size category difference between them -- while I would (and did) disagree with B, since I don't think that opens the door to MitD's species being any size.

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    Default Re: MitD XIII: Learning is happening

    Quote Originally Posted by Kish View Post
    Wasn't that just voted down?
    Not really; they just mean "size is neither a pro nor a con to a Huge creature". I feel it is a con, though, which is why it's there, but it's not a hill I'll die on if enough people think otherwise.

    Re: mind control: the other argument (sorry, should've mentioned it in my first post on the topic) is the "why was that scene included in the book, given the lack of pay-off?" The usual answer, according to the Giant, tends to be "there is a reason, just wait", so honestly I'd rather take it at face value ("MitD is mind controllable") until it does come up, and then revise. If Xykon suddenly mind controls another non-mind-controllable creature, sure. Otherwise, I'm not sure we have enough evidence to assume he has a epic spell to mind control non-mind-controllable creatures he happened to develop at great personal cost before he needed it and has had the chance to use exactly once.

    As to another vote, I'm going to be honest: I'm completely opposed because it is exhausting to run one of those things, and I just had to do two in a row.

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    Quote Originally Posted by woweedd View Post
    I would say that's the dumbest theory Grey Wolf's heard, but, let's be honest: It's Grey Wolf. They've probably heard dumber theories today. Point is, neat idea, but it's a real stretch.
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  13. - Top - End - #43
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    Default Re: MitD XIII: Learning is happening

    Quote Originally Posted by Grey_Wolf_c View Post
    Not really; they just mean "size is neither a pro nor a con to a Huge creature". I feel it is a con, though, which is why it's there, but it's not a hill I'll die on if enough people think otherwise.

    Re: mind control: the other argument (sorry, should've mentioned it in my first post on the topic) is the "why was that scene included in the book, given the lack of pay-off?" The usual answer, according to the Giant, tends to be "there is a reason, just wait", so honestly I'd rather take it at face value ("MitD is mind controllable") until it does come up, and then revise.
    I'm certain there will be a payoff, involving the command being triggered.

    I am equally certain that it did take effect (in light of the creature's reaction, swirly eyes and otherwise).

    I am less certain that that scene was aimed at the benefit of us in this thread (I'm guessing here that this is the implication of there being no payoff if it was a spell that could mind control a creature that couldn't normally be mind-controlled, since as far as the story goes I'm not seeing the difference between "Xykon casts his homebrewed Years-Long Works-On-Golems Suggestion and the zodar MitD is Suggested" and "Xykon casts his homebrewed Years-Long Suggestion and the slaad MitD is Suggested").

    About the second vote so soon...sorry. If I could go back in time and suggest adding those two options to the previous vote a day in, I absolutely would.
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    This, in a nutshell.
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    Default Re: MitD XIII: Learning is happening

    Quote Originally Posted by Grey_Wolf_c View Post
    Re: mind control: the other argument (sorry, should've mentioned it in my first post on the topic) is the "why was that scene included in the book, given the lack of pay-off?" The usual answer, according to the Giant, tends to be "there is a reason, just wait", so honestly I'd rather take it at face value ("MitD is mind controllable") until it does come up, and then revise.

    Grey Wolf
    That's a really good point. I trust Rich this is going somewhere and I remember his "outburst" about calling for plot holes before the end.

    Quote Originally Posted by Grey_Wolf_c View Post
    As to another vote, I'm going to be honest: I'm completely opposed because it is exhausting to run one of those things, and I just had to do two in a row.
    Yeah. That's also a very good point.
    Last edited by Rob Redblade; 2019-03-30 at 12:25 PM.

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    Default Re: MitD XIII: Learning is happening

    Quote Originally Posted by Rob Redblade View Post
    [...]


    Yeah. That's also a very good point.
    See, that's why I voted for A in advance
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    Default Re: MitD XIII: Learning is happening

    I'd agree with huge size not being a con

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    Default Re: MitD XIII: Learning is happening

    Quote Originally Posted by Grey_Wolf_c View Post
    Not really; they just mean "size is neither a pro nor a con to a Huge creature". I feel it is a con, though, which is why it's there, but it's not a hill I'll die on if enough people think otherwise.

    Re: mind control: the other argument (sorry, should've mentioned it in my first post on the topic) is the "why was that scene included in the book, given the lack of pay-off?" The usual answer, according to the Giant, tends to be "there is a reason, just wait", so honestly I'd rather take it at face value ("MitD is mind controllable") until it does come up, and then revise. If Xykon suddenly mind controls another non-mind-controllable creature, sure. Otherwise, I'm not sure we have enough evidence to assume he has a epic spell to mind control non-mind-controllable creatures he happened to develop at great personal cost before he needed it and has had the chance to use exactly once.

    As to another vote, I'm going to be honest: I'm completely opposed because it is exhausting to run one of those things, and I just had to do two in a row.

    Grey Wolf
    In fairness, I'm almost certain that what Xykon used was a custom epic spell, simply because of the duration. Any creature powerful enough to be MitD is going to have a will save so high that a standard suggestion spell would almost certainly fail. So unless we assume Xykon is burning 20 spell slots every day or so forcing a nat 1 on MitD, we can assume that whatever he's using is of permanent (or at least arbitrarily long) duration. Then we need only assume a single natural 1 on MitD's side, and no additional resources spent on Xykon's side. This implies an epic spell.

    It doesn't, however, necessarily imply that the spell in question works on things immune to mind control.
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    Default Re: MitD XIII: Learning is happening

    Quote Originally Posted by thereaper View Post
    But if they normally speak a language that no one can understand, it would be surprising that one would speak in Common. So that would actually be a point in favor of the Protean.
    But the entry currently reads as if they could only speak their own language, which is misleading. I guess the 'normally' was meant as "they can, but choose not to speak common" but I interpreted it as "they can't if they are a normal protean".

    Quote Originally Posted by Grey_Wolf_c View Post
    As to another vote, I'm going to be honest: I'm completely opposed because it is exhausting to run one of those things, and I just had to do two in a row.
    I totally understand. I was hoping my suggestions would need no vote (since they don't change the FBS criteria) or one could just integrate them into another vote (about Kish's suggestions). But I don't need a vote for them now and can table them until another vote is on the way (if they need a vote).
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    Default Re: MitD XIII: Learning is happening

    My suggestions will only be voted on if two people formally second the call for a vote.
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    "The really unforgivable acts are committed by calm men in beautiful green silk rooms, who deal death wholesale, by the shipload, without lust, or anger, or desire, or any redeeming emotion to excuse them but cold fear of some pretended future. But the crimes they hope to prevent in the future are imaginary. The ones they commit in the present--they are real." --Aral Vorkosigan

    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    This, in a nutshell.
    Yes, exactly.

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    Default Re: MitD XIII: Learning is happening

    Out of curiosity, are there terribly many contenders known to reproduce non-biologically (e.g. magically or psionically or something else I understand exactly as little of)?

    What I'm trying to suggest is some kind of construct or outsider (etc) whose progenitor could have accidentally created it extra-small, sidestepping the STR-based size reduction test by saying that its strength doesn't come from its body, per se.

    A creature like that would also have to answer the questions of how it can be mind-controlled and why it eats food, but depending on the creature those answers could be as simple as "because it's not passively mindblanked, and because it likes eating".
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    Default Re: MitD XIII: Learning is happening

    Quote Originally Posted by Kish View Post
    My suggestions will only be voted on if two people formally second the call for a vote.
    I would contend that 3Powers and myself provided that for the challenge rating part. Albeit with a modification that CR15 would be a reasonable lower limit. However, I side with Grey Wolf that a vote right now isn't a good idea. The last 15 pages of the previous thread were kinda hellish, with a complicated vote, followed immediately by the new thread title vote and posting the new thread. He deserves a break.

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    Default Re: MitD XIII: Learning is happening

    Would it help if I volunteer to track the votes? I do feel guilty about putting another vote on Grey Wolf so soon.
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    "The really unforgivable acts are committed by calm men in beautiful green silk rooms, who deal death wholesale, by the shipload, without lust, or anger, or desire, or any redeeming emotion to excuse them but cold fear of some pretended future. But the crimes they hope to prevent in the future are imaginary. The ones they commit in the present--they are real." --Aral Vorkosigan

    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    This, in a nutshell.
    Yes, exactly.

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    Default Re: MitD XIII: Learning is happening

    Quote Originally Posted by thereaper View Post
    In fairness, I'm almost certain that what Xykon used was a custom epic spell, simply because of the duration. Any creature powerful enough to be MitD is going to have a will save so high that a standard suggestion spell would almost certainly fail. So unless we assume Xykon is burning 20 spell slots every day or so forcing a nat 1 on MitD, we can assume that whatever he's using is of permanent (or at least arbitrarily long) duration. Then we need only assume a single natural 1 on MitD's side, and no additional resources spent on Xykon's side. This implies an epic spell.

    It doesn't, however, necessarily imply that the spell in question works on things immune to mind control.
    Alternative: The monster is not statted in the D&D version OotS uses and thus doesn't even HAVE a will save to defend against Xykon's spell (like the creatures in the dungeon of Dorukan).

    Would that help in Xykon not needing a super special Epic spell he never used again?
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    Default Re: MitD XIII: Learning is happening

    I say we impose a temporary vote moratorium of a couple weeks or something. Seriously, didn’t we just do an FBS criteria vote this week?

    Lets just discuss for a bit. If memory serves, thats how past votes have typically come about. Someone says “Hey, what do people think about X?” Then a discussion happens around it and if people generally gravitate to a particular point of view (which might not be the original proposal) then everyone kinda says “hey, this is a good idea, we should do this” and we have a vote.

    Voting should be the end of the process, not the beginning in a “Lets see if people like X” kind of way. This last time, we didn’t necessarily come to a consensus before voting but we had like 30 pages of discussion to establish battle-lines so that was good enough.
    Last edited by Crusher; 2019-03-30 at 06:15 PM.

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    Default Re: MitD XIII: Learning is happening

    Quote Originally Posted by Crusher View Post
    I say we impose a temporary vote moratorium of a couple weeks or something. Seriously, didn’t we just do an FBS criteria vote this week?
    Sure. How about 2 weeks?
    Quote Originally Posted by Crusher View Post
    Someone says “Hey, what do people think about X?” Then a discussion happens around it and if people generally gravitate to a particular point of view (which might not be the original proposal) then everyone kinda says “hey, this is a good idea, we should do this” and we have a vote.
    Ooh, me me! No really, give me a moment to find my notes...
    I'm not kidding, I have a proposal for a candidate.
    ETA: Found it.
    Mythological Tarasque
    I'd actually like to add the Tarasque to the list of proposals. The mythological Tarasque, which is extremely different in comparison to the version found in D&D.
    I wrote this on the last thread towards the end, but because of the name vote it kind of got swept under the carpet so to speak.
    I do not think it would be an FBS due to a lack of ability to teleport among a few other issues, but it has many other viable aspects.
    The Tarasque is a beast from French mythology. I even have 13 reason why it could be a Tarasque. I actually have more reasons, but I stopped because it felt appropriate.
    Spoiler: Pros of the Tarasque
    Show

    • The Tarasque is found in a marsh and is from the highlands, meaning that finding it in a jungle is quite bizarre.
    • The Tarasque generally does not speak, meaning that seeing it speak in Common is surprising.
    • The Tarasque looks weird as heck. It has a turtle like shell covered with spikes, an assortment of legs, and a vaguely humanoid to completely monstrous face depending on the depiction. The most normal thing about it is that it has two typically yellow eyes.
    • Six legs and a tail means weird tracks.
    • Some depictions show it being able to walk on its hind legs, but even if it couldn't it could plausibly use either its tail (long enough for grabbing short ranged things, but not too long to invalidate the lack of limbs shown in certain scenes) or walk with four legs and grab with the other two.
    • The Tarasque does not have any D&D stats giving it some leeway, but it is incredibly strong, capable of sinking boats and devouring people. If it can easily sink a boat, I would imagine that it should have fairly little trouble punching someone through a wall.
    • Furthermore, it was capable of withstanding assaults from knights and catapults, suggesting it is strong enough to take negligible damage from Miko's assault.
    • Lack of preset D&D levels means it cannot help out with reanimating without leveling up.
    • It does not seem to be immune to mind altering effects as it was calmed and charmed by Saint Martha.
    • The Tarasque is very big, but not overwhelmingly so and a young one would fit just fine in a box.
    • Speaking of which, if they are devouring anyone who crosses a marsh then they would be eating a lot which fits in with the "MitD's dad ate a LOT" bit.
    • Is from a text that predates Rich Burlew. And D&D. It's plenty old enough.
    • Is not the embodiment of anything.


    Spoiler: Cons of the Tarasque
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    • Since the Tarrasque exists as a D&D monster (albeit a very different one), it might seem like cheating for the Giant to use it.
    • No way to explain the Escape scene that I am aware of.


    Anyone willing to second this as a proposal? Not FBS or anything, just a run of the mill proposal.
    Last edited by Squire Doodad; 2019-03-30 at 06:24 PM.
    An explanation of why MitD being any larger than Huge is implausible.

    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
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    Default Re: MitD XIII: Learning is happening

    Quote Originally Posted by Squire Doodad View Post
    I'm not kidding, I have a proposal for a candidate.
    Oooh, really?

    Edit - Hmm, I see. Do you have a link to depixtions of it in folklore?
    Last edited by Crusher; 2019-03-30 at 06:22 PM.

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    Default Re: MitD XIII: Learning is happening

    Quote Originally Posted by Crusher View Post
    I say we impose a temporary vote moratorium of a couple weeks or something. Seriously, didn’t we just do an FBS criteria vote this week?

    Lets just discuss for a bit. If memory serves, thats how past votes have typically come about. Someone says “Hey, what do people think about X?” Then a discussion happens around it and if people generally gravitate to a particular point of view (which might not be the original proposal) then everyone kinda says “hey, this is a good idea, we should do this” and we have a vote.

    Voting should be the end of the process, not the beginning in a “Lets see if people like X” kind of way. This last time, we didn’t necessarily come to a consensus before voting but we had like 30 pages of discussion to establish battle-lines so that was good enough.
    Funny. If we had a vote about what we should do now I'd vote for this option (the no more vote).

    Seriously, we just had a vote where we decided on exactly 0 changes. Give it a rest people. If you come up with a great idea, people will voice their opinions on it and if the consensus is in your favor, that's when you CONSIDER calling a vote.

    I'm down for a lot of the smaller changes (alignment embodiment rec, some of the text in pros/cons being altered/added), but since they are so small there is little to no urgency.

    I would really like to see someone make a good argument for why an embodiment of evil could be MitD, because then my pet pick the Glabrezu becomes more viable. The current evidence is pretty nonexistent (a possible LG deva messed with some slaads, roy's archon (LG) did a single chaotic thing once, that's it), but it seems like it could be an interesting debate.
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    Default Re: MitD XIII: Learning is happening

    Quote Originally Posted by Crusher View Post
    Oooh, really?

    Edit - Hmm, I see. Do you have a link to depixtions of it in folklore?
    Not on hand, though the wikipedia page does have a couple images. I'm aware that wikipedia isn't exactly a reliable source, but I was looking for imagery not information. The images basically show it as being roughly like a ankylosaurid creature with six legs and a lion's head, though I have seen a picture that shows it with a more human head. Either way, its in line with what I read as a child.
    If you need a specific link, I found this which appears to be a contemporary depiction.
    Last edited by Squire Doodad; 2019-03-30 at 06:36 PM.
    An explanation of why MitD being any larger than Huge is implausible.

    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    It shall be swift and ruthless. Unless any Ruths intend to join, in which case it shall be ruthful.
    Purple is the color of humorous descriptions made up on the fly
    Green is the color of serious conversation about theoretical ideas, if transitioning from other stuff
    Blue is the color of irony and sarcasm


    In the end, its all in the cards...

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    Default Re: MitD XIII: Learning is happening

    Quote Originally Posted by Crusher View Post
    Do you have a link to depixtions of it in folklore?
    .

    In any case, added it to 3e.

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    Last edited by Grey_Wolf_c; 2019-03-30 at 06:38 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by woweedd View Post
    I would say that's the dumbest theory Grey Wolf's heard, but, let's be honest: It's Grey Wolf. They've probably heard dumber theories today. Point is, neat idea, but it's a real stretch.
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    Default Re: MitD XIII: Learning is happening

    Quote Originally Posted by Grey_Wolf_c View Post
    .

    In any case, added it to 3e.

    Grey Wolf
    Alright, thank you very much
    What does it mean by "Probably would be the Tarrasque in OotS."?

    Oh and while I'm here "Tonberri" (Section 3c) is mispelled - it should be "Tonberry". Unless it is referring to a specific one, but the Tonberry's abilities don't vary much and as such using the general spelling should work better.
    Last edited by Squire Doodad; 2019-03-30 at 06:44 PM.
    An explanation of why MitD being any larger than Huge is implausible.

    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    It shall be swift and ruthless. Unless any Ruths intend to join, in which case it shall be ruthful.
    Purple is the color of humorous descriptions made up on the fly
    Green is the color of serious conversation about theoretical ideas, if transitioning from other stuff
    Blue is the color of irony and sarcasm


    In the end, its all in the cards...

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