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  1. - Top - End - #61
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    WolfInSheepsClothing

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    Default Re: MitD XIII: Learning is happening

    ok. My argument is that when it comes to size:

    It's extremely likely that the MiTD's species is at least one size category larger than it is drawn, based on 1) Oona's statement that MiTD is "so small... but will grow in time," 2) MiTD is clearly a child, meaning that more likely than not he's smaller than an adult (especially since the MiTD seemed to truly get his child personality cemented around the time his species would have been firmly decided - making him a child could've been related to the discrepancy between MiTD's size versus its species stats), 3) MiTD says his father was larger than he is, and 4) the comic has taken a number of liberties with creature size as it is (goblins, sylphs, etc) and it wouldn't be surprising if there was some bending of size with MiTD.

  2. - Top - End - #62
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    Default Re: MitD XIII: Learning is happening

    Quote Originally Posted by CriticalFailure View Post
    ok. My argument is that when it comes to size:

    It's extremely likely that the MiTD's species is at least one size category larger than it is drawn, based on 1) Oona's statement that MiTD is "so small... but will grow in time," 2) MiTD is clearly a child, meaning that more likely than not he's smaller than an adult (especially since the MiTD seemed to truly get his child personality cemented around the time his species would have been firmly decided - making him a child could've been related to the discrepancy between MiTD's size versus its species stats), 3) MiTD says his father was larger than he is, and 4) the comic has taken a number of liberties with creature size as it is (goblins, sylphs, etc) and it wouldn't be surprising if there was some bending of size with MiTD.
    I mean, it would be understandable if MitD is large or huge and the creature is huge or maybe on of the smaller Gargantuans. If MitD is a bit small for his species and the adult of the species is towards the lower end of a size category, it makes sense that he would be akin to the larger end of the next size category down. Scale for being young, and the maximum size category (at least in my mind) is fairly broad.

    However, it would still be absurd for him to be a Colossal creature. It is certainly possible, and if the only issue is that the creature is colossal it would be quite the candidate. However, said creature would probably need to also have astronomical STR or remarkably specific fluff (i.e. "the [creature] boasts impressive might even as a newborn, getting even stronger as it ages" or "[creature]s experience rapid growth as they begin to near maturity, swiftly reaching the power they are known for in legend.") in order for it to also be able to have enough power when it is a child.

    As we spent OVER 12 PAGES ARGUING ABOUT, if a creature barely reaches the lower end of the viable spectrum and is vastly larger than the MitD shown, then it can't be resized to fit. The same applies even to things a good way into the "Tower Scene" zone - if it has 40 STR but is large enough to squish a small village with its feet, then I doubt a young version would actually be able to have enough STR for the scene.
    An explanation of why MitD being any larger than Huge is implausible.

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  3. - Top - End - #63
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    WolfInSheepsClothing

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    Default Re: MitD XIII: Learning is happening

    I agree that colossal is still very unlikely. I think colossal size should still be considered a con.

    With this information huge creatures definitely shouldn't have their size be considered a con. Based on Oona's comments about how MiTD is so small and will grow, and MiTD's statement that his father is much larger, it seems more likely that MiTD is a juvenile of a Huge species than a Large species.

    Gargantuan is less likely, but I think it's possible given that MiTD is expected to grow and the comic plays fast and loose with creature sizes.

  4. - Top - End - #64
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    Default Re: MitD XIII: Learning is happening

    Quote Originally Posted by CriticalFailure View Post
    I agree that colossal is still very unlikely. I think colossal size should still be considered a con.

    With this information huge creatures definitely shouldn't have their size be considered a con. Based on Oona's comments about how MiTD is so small and will grow, and MiTD's statement that his father is much larger, it seems more likely that MiTD is a juvenile of a Huge species than a Large species.

    Gargantuan is less likely, but I think it's possible given that MiTD is expected to grow and the comic plays fast and loose with creature sizes.
    Even if that is true - and I'm far from convinced it would do so for MitD beyond one step (and reminder, MitD is currently a large Medium, or a really small (sub-8 feet) Large) - the comic does NOT play fast an loose with strength. Human children are not as strong as adults.

    Reminder that there exists a table to make creatures bigger that grants them very significant strength gains as they climb beyond Large. It seems perfectly reasonable to run the table in reverse, at which point a creature that as an adult is Huge would have -16 strength as a Normal sized child. It gets even worse from there, just as it gets worse to imagine how MitD could be baby or fetus-sized after 30 years and have the attitude of a 10 year old.

    Repeating over and over "well the dad is much bigger" doesn't magically justify that the species has ten year-olds grow fivefold before becoming adults. A "much bigger" dad can describe an adult that is 50% to 100% larger that MitD currently is - and that is still only Large, or maybe a tiny Huge. And anything beyond that, one has to wonder what kind of absurd growth spurts would be awaiting MitD.

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    Last edited by Grey_Wolf_c; 2019-03-30 at 10:11 PM.
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  5. - Top - End - #65
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    Default Re: MitD XIII: Learning is happening

    Quote Originally Posted by Grey_Wolf_c View Post
    And anything beyond that, one has to wonder what kind of absurd growth spurts would be awaiting MitD.

    Grey Wolf
    Turns out the next page after the current scene is MitD suddenly being the size of a small house and wondering how he still fits in the darkness.
    An explanation of why MitD being any larger than Huge is implausible.

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  6. - Top - End - #66
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    Default Re: MitD XIII: Learning is happening

    I mean, I agree that MiTD probably won't grow into a colossal creature but it's also not reasonable to apply the growth time line of real life humans to the situation either. I don't see why "humans don't grow that much from pre-teen to adult" is supposed to rule out MiTD being a member of a Huge species here.

    Also, what age range equivalent is the MiTD pinned down as? I don't really know what range "young enough to play with transformers and have tea parties, old enough to be interested in dwarf sex" translates to.

  7. - Top - End - #67
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    Default Re: MitD XIII: Learning is happening

    Quote Originally Posted by Squire Doodad View Post
    Turns out the next page after the current scene is MitD suddenly being the size of a small house and wondering how he still fits in the darkness.
    That would be funny and require a pretty serious revision in how we view size. But as it stands, we don’t have that data point to work with.
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  8. - Top - End - #68
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    Default Re: MitD XIII: Learning is happening

    Quote Originally Posted by Crusher View Post
    That would be funny and require a pretty serious revision in how we view size. But as it stands, we don’t have that data point to work with.
    And Protean would still technically work fine! Assuming he was shapeshifting to a new species.

    Quote Originally Posted by CriticalFailure View Post
    I mean, I agree that MiTD probably won't grow into a colossal creature but it's also not reasonable to apply the growth time line of real life humans to the situation either. I don't see why "humans don't grow that much from pre-teen to adult" is supposed to rule out MiTD being a member of a Huge species here.

    Also, what age range equivalent is the MiTD pinned down as? I don't really know what range "young enough to play with transformers and have tea parties, old enough to be interested in dwarf sex" translates to.
    I think it's been assumed (and therefore established as an informal standard) that MitD is somewhere from 11-14, being either somewhat mature or extremely childish depending on which end of that spectrum, but childish nonetheless.

    I think Grey Wolf's point is that while it sounds easy to project a child going from one age group to the next being like one size category to the next, you would only see a change in any size category at all from newborn to adult (assuming a species is not specifically on the cusp of a certain size). Most animals have significant changes in growth, but going from a being that is nearing but not quite at maturity to an adult would not usually mean a size category change unless they are already on the border.
    Think of it in human terms: while humans go through significant growth spurts around puberty, they aren't nearly as big as a size category difference. We might grow over 20% of the original height (from a preteen to a fully grown person), but the change from one size category to the next is double the size. A shift in size that significant is like instead of your 11 year old cousin going from 5'3'' to 6'2'' by the time he is 18, he inexplicably goes from 5'3'' to 9'8''.
    So if MitD is a very big Large now, and the adult size is unknown, it could plausibly turn out to be a moderate Huge with some margin of error. But if MitD is a very small Huge now (or even anything that is not a very big Huge), he cannot turn out to be a Gargantuan when he is an adult.
    Huh, it makes sense to me now.
    Last edited by Squire Doodad; 2019-03-30 at 09:44 PM.
    An explanation of why MitD being any larger than Huge is implausible.

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  9. - Top - End - #69
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    Default Re: MitD XIII: Learning is happening

    Quote Originally Posted by Grey_Wolf_c View Post
    Even if that is true - and I'm far from convinced it would do so for MitD beyond one step (and reminder, MitD is currently a large Normal
    A large Medium, you mean?
    Quote Originally Posted by Grey_Wolf_c View Post
    the comic does NOT play fast an loose with strength. Human children are not as strong as adults.
    The Young Adult Black Dragon also was not as strong as the Ancient mother, for another example.
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  10. - Top - End - #70
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    Default Re: MitD XIII: Learning is happening

    I'll agree that no vote should yet take place, but I think both of Kish's suggestions are reasonable and will back a vote at some point in the future.

    The MitD must be fairly powerful to work, I'd be surprised if it was as low as CR 18. I could see some debate over what the limit should be, since it's best to err on the side of too low rather than too high, but if it's a D&D 3.x creature I'd really expect it to be epic. Xylon still treats the MitD as significant.

    Similarly, the spell used on the MitD MUST, of necessity, be a homebrew spell, and we know that Xylon uses such spells (Xylon's moderately escapable forcecage).

    Given that we know it is homebrew, and we additionally know that spells that work like a mind-affecting spell on creatures immune to such exist (control undead and command undead just in the SRD), so we have no reason to assume it is NOT a homebrew version of control or command undead with longer duration rather than a homebrew version of an actual mind control spell.

    I'd also be willing to vote for huge size not being a con. We have a handful of creatures with multiple sizes at different ages. Giants as infants have no listed size or combat ability, but juveniles are -2 size categories and adolescents are -1 size category and both ages are treated as combat capable. I find the MitD as an adolescent entirely believable and the scaling/age rules for giants indicate a full size category for this. Dragons show even more extreme size growth as they age, humans not growing as much is largely irrelevant to D&D creatures.

    I'd be willing to accept any size, as long as scaling down to large size still leaves a minimum of 30 strength.

  11. - Top - End - #71
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    Default Re: MitD XIII: Learning is happening

    I second or fifth or sixth the motion to hold no new votes for a few weeks. We're up to page 3 already. Good grief.

    3Power, your list is interesting, but I notice you state the Protean has no inherent damage reduction. The link to the description in the SRD gives it a DR 10/epic. Something seems to be amiss somewhere. Also, you list "Always CN" as a drawback. Almost every creature has an alignment listed. I think the point of MitD's character is that it doesn't matter what the base creature type's alignment is, he's choosing his own.

    EDIT: Actually I see you've given it a smiley face for alignment, so I'm not sure what to make of it. What's your vetting system anyway?

    Crusher: I'm going to put all my chips in the stack for the Protean. (Not to spite anyone, just because I think it works best of all the candidates I've seen or contemplated.) Officially change my guess to Protean, please!
    Last edited by Darth Paul; 2019-03-31 at 02:07 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Grey_Wolf_c View Post
    Also, everything Darth Paul just said.
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  12. - Top - End - #72
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    Default Re: MitD XIII: Learning is happening

    I wanted to post a montage of V's children vs V vs Belkar vs Ancien Black Dragon Size but can't do it because I can't yet achieve my adult form powers of displaying links or images so, instead, I'll just go eat more stew and spout things without visual back-up.

    Bottom line is: I don't think we should put too much weight on the size of the MitD and its species: in order to draw everything in an indentifiable size in the same panel, small things tend to be drawn bigger (and the reverse that big things are drawn smaller could be true).

    V's children are roughly 2/3rds of an elven adult (V or Inkyrius) but a whole 1 of a Belkar (small size). The Belkster is a tall halfling, though. Meanwhile, the Ancient Black Dragon (ABD) (Huge) does appear huge relative to the medium V and I. (Strips used for comparison are #639, #636 and #645).

    I have no trouble picturing the MitD as a large four-legged creature due to the size of its eyes and where the "stomp!" originates from in #477. Likewise, I can picture an ABD sized creature as filling the BIG description the MitD has for his father.

    So, my bet would be that the MitD itself is Large and the specie is Huge or bigger (definite size depending on the specie's life duration and growth through it). That being said, I still think that size is a poor criterium when evaluating what species the MitD could be.

    ETA: If posting modified images of the comic (shrunk, rotated, cut and pasted) is unwelcome, please let me know. My purpose isn't to denature Rich's art or go against the mods, it's just that I think that visual means are a useful tool to convey things.
    Last edited by Jineon; 2019-03-31 at 02:31 AM.
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  13. - Top - End - #73
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    Default Re: MitD XIII: Learning is happening

    Quote Originally Posted by Darth Paul View Post
    3Power, your list is interesting, but I notice you state the Protean has no inherent damage reduction. The link to the description in the SRD gives it a DR 10/epic. Something seems to be amiss somewhere. Also, you list "Always CN" as a drawback. Almost every creature has an alignment listed. I think the point of MitD's character is that it doesn't matter what the base creature type's alignment is, he's choosing his own.

    EDIT: Actually I see you've given it a smiley face for alignment, so I'm not sure what to make of it. What's your vetting system anyway?
    DR thing was a mistake. I looked for it and couldn't find it even when it was right in front of me. Fixed.

    Also, always CN is not a drawback, the general idea is that a creature inherently good or evil is unlikely to be as conflicted as the MitD is. So moral-neutral alignments and "Usually" good or evil are , "always" good or evil would be , and "always" good or evil with the relevant subtype would be , because that makes them an embodiment of that alignment.

    Even a succubus can become a LG paladin though, so it's not a dealbreaker.

  14. - Top - End - #74
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    Default Re: MitD XIII: Learning is happening

    So I've been lurking around this thread for a while, and there's something I've been wondering about.

    I don't think it would be controversial to say that OotS has been fairly consistent in how spells and magical abilities are portrayed. Spell names are spoken by the caster, and a coloured aura emanates from the caster's hands, which we see with V and basically every other caster in OotS. There's no indication of any spellcasting when MitD smacks Miko and her horse out of the tower, resists her and Belkar's attacks, or in creating the earthquake. The only time where it seems like he explicitly uses magic is in the Escape scene, which admittedly does break with OotS' spellcasting rules; but it's the only time in the comic that this is the case, possibly to further complicate the mystery of who MitD "really is." So much of the MitD's capacities are described as physical actions (i.e. "swallow him whole," "stomp the ground," "pull on this rope," etc.) that I don't think it makes much sense to say that it's the product of Telekinesis, Earthquake, and so on.

    There's another thing that bugs me about this that involves Redcloak's plan regarding the ritual. We know for certain that Redcloak needs Xykon for the ritual because it demands a powerful arcane spellcaster as well as a divine one. Most monsters with spellcasting, as I understand it, are arcane spellcasters, and the ones powerful enough to explain the Escape seem powerful enough to complete the arcane component of the ritual. This creates the following plot-related predicament: why would Redcloak betray his own brother for Xykon, if the MitD has the capacity to handle the arcane spellcasting himself? I don't think that the answer to that can be Redcloak turning around and saying, "oh whoops, MitD is powerful monster and a sorcerer, I was wrong about him after all!" I personally think this disqualifies candidates with extensive spellcasting more than anything, since it forms a real plot hole, but maybe that's just me.

    Separately, I wonder if MitD actually is a child. People keep citing his immature behaviour, as if Elan hasn't done and said any of the same things as MitD. We know Elan is an adult. MitD is immature as well, yes, but I don't see why that means he's a child, besides his own admission that his dad is a lot bigger than he is now. All that really suggests for me is that MitD is, at best, not fully grown up. It seems like a stretch to interpret that as him potentially being a Gargantuan- or Colossal-sized creature, given what the actual statistics of those size categories suggest, as Grey Wolf and Kish pointed out earlier.
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  15. - Top - End - #75
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    Default Re: MitD XIII: Learning is happening

    Quote Originally Posted by Aspheric View Post
    So I've been lurking around this thread for a while, and there's something I've been wondering about.

    I don't think it would be controversial to say that OotS has been fairly consistent in how spells and magical abilities are portrayed. Spell names are spoken by the caster, and a coloured aura emanates from the caster's hands, which we see with V and basically every other caster in OotS. There's no indication of any spellcasting when MitD smacks Miko and her horse out of the tower, resists her and Belkar's attacks, or in creating the earthquake. The only time where it seems like he explicitly uses magic is in the Escape scene, which admittedly does break with OotS' spellcasting rules; but it's the only time in the comic that this is the case, possibly to further complicate the mystery of who MitD "really is." So much of the MitD's capacities are described as physical actions (i.e. "swallow him whole," "stomp the ground," "pull on this rope," etc.) that I don't think it makes much sense to say that it's the product of Telekinesis, Earthquake, and so on.
    Him appearing to explicitly use magic seems to be intended as a big plot twist, so it being hidden until then makes sense. Also, there are multiple occasions in the comic where magic is not explicitly accompanied by the spell name. Several of which include Xykon, namely, him animating the corpse of his dog as a child, him putting a sleeper trigger command on the MitD, and I seem to remember him zapping Haley during the big battle with something.

    There's another thing that bugs me about this that involves Redcloak's plan regarding the ritual. We know for certain that Redcloak needs Xykon for the ritual because it demands a powerful arcane spellcaster as well as a divine one. Most monsters with spellcasting, as I understand it, are arcane spellcasters, and the ones powerful enough to explain the Escape seem powerful enough to complete the arcane component of the ritual. This creates the following plot-related predicament: why would Redcloak betray his own brother for Xykon, if the MitD has the capacity to handle the arcane spellcasting himself? I don't think that the answer to that can be Redcloak turning around and saying, "oh whoops, MitD is powerful monster and a sorcerer, I was wrong about him after all!" I personally think this disqualifies candidates with extensive spellcasting more than anything, since it forms a real plot hole, but maybe that's just me.
    Consider for a moment that Redcloak knows the MitD's species can cast spells. This may be his primary motive for freeing MitD from the circus, as Xykon has been MIA for an extended period of time. Then two things happen: Xykon shows up, and the MitD ends up displaying as much magic as a sedimentary rock. Xykon remains his best option because there's no guarantee the MitD will gain his spellcasting anytime soon.
    Separately, I wonder if MitD actually is a child. People keep citing his immature behaviour, as if Elan hasn't done and said any of the same things as MitD. We know Elan is an adult. MitD is immature as well, yes, but I don't see why that means he's a child, besides his own admission that his dad is a lot bigger than he is now. All that really suggests for me is that MitD is, at best, not fully grown up. It seems like a stretch to interpret that as him potentially being a Gargantuan- or Colossal-sized creature, given what the actual statistics of those size categories suggest, as Grey Wolf and Kish pointed out earlier.
    I have liked the idea that his growth is stunted due to malnourishment. Him being constantly hungry is a well defined character trait.
    Last edited by 3Power; 2019-03-31 at 07:19 AM.

  16. - Top - End - #76
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    Default Re: MitD XIII: Learning is happening

    @Aspheric:
    I think this is a good observation, and for me similar thoughts have made me think it unlikely that MitD is a Ha Naga or other creatures that are "real casters", in the sense of having a huge spell list.

    I think MitD likely ONLY has some form of (D&D or no D&D) "wish" ability, or a very short list of "spell like abilities" of some sort.

    To me, it just doesn't make that someone is secretly a wizard, without knowing, and then they "accidentally" cast a super high level spell by "wanting really hard", and THEN never managing it again, not even any form of smaller spell or anything.

    To me, this just doesn't fit with how the story is written.

    Does it help finding a better fit yet? Unfortunately no. It just means what I personally find likely and what not.

    I haven't thought about your reasoning with RC, though. That makes even more sense, I think!

    While we are at it:
    One of my guesses is the Carbosilicate Amorph, which I like specifically because it can teleport but does NOT have other magic. Which fits extremely well with how I read the hints. Also, "Rich probably wouldn't..." seems like the weakest Con in the entire list, and it's the ONLY Con listed.

    But I haven't read that comic, and Wikipedia doesn't help much in this regard, and I would like to understand how this teraport stuff works.
    Maybe it doesn't fit so well after all?
    For me, the most important thing is that MitD can teleport others without touching them and without going with them.
    Can teraports be used that way?
    Last edited by Mightymosy; 2019-03-31 at 07:20 AM.

  17. - Top - End - #77
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    Default Re: MitD XIII: Learning is happening

    Quote Originally Posted by Mightymosy View Post
    @Aspheric:
    While we are at it:
    One of my guesses is the Carbosilicate Amorph, which I like specifically because it can teleport but does NOT have other magic. Which fits extremely well with how I read the hints. Also, "Rich probably wouldn't..." seems like the weakest Con in the entire list, and it's the ONLY Con listed.

    But I haven't read that comic, and Wikipedia doesn't help much in this regard, and I would like to understand how this teraport stuff works.
    Maybe it doesn't fit so well after all?
    For me, the most important thing is that MitD can teleport others without touching them and without going with them.
    Can teraports be used that way?
    Is "teraport" something indigenous to where the Carbosilicate Amorph is from?
    Anyways...
    While OotS does bend the rules with teleporting quite often (Teleport is a fairly close range spell unless a high end version, as opposed to being touch range), there are theories specifically about the MitD not going with them.
    The first one is of course that he bestowed a wish onto V or O-Chul, who would then be sent somewhere safe i.e. where Hinjo is.
    The second one allows for more things to happen. When the Escape scene begins and V breaks through the wall, he flings a Dimensional Anchor at Xykon. He misses, Xykon makes a snappy comeback, and it is disregarded for the rest of the fight. Given how the Giant writes stories, it has been suggested that the Dimensional Anchor actually hit MitD, meaning that when he accidentally teleported O-Chul and V, he did so while under Dimensional Anchor and therefore was unable to go with them.
    An explanation of why MitD being any larger than Huge is implausible.

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  18. - Top - End - #78
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    Default Re: MitD XIII: Learning is happening

    well, while i do not have much direct knowlege from game-playing experience, i have been researching and trying my hand at guessing what the MitD is.

    my current opinion from the most likely roster is: Hagunemnon (Protean) fits for me the most, though the eyes and speech are my biggest doubts. the Athasian Nightmare Beast is my second choice.

    today, while exploring around the internets, i wondered if we were somehow barking up the wrong tree. if there was any possibility of the MitD was some sort of parasite/host, possession, or fungal infection/host? for example if the MitD was actually a very small, juvenile, psionic parasite that was attached to an epic host, and therefore combining a small-sized or invisible psionic to some powerfully strong but horrifyingly ugly monster. a sort of master/blaster combo. the host may be large sized, and still growing. since the parasite is a juvenile, but very small, small enough that it may not be detected as seperate from the host, and undetectable as a psion. i do not know if something like this exists, but it might explain why it was not even suspected of greater teleport or wish, since its host does not have access to something like that. why it may be seriously underestimated in regards to its intelligence and knowlege, of say the astral plane for example. if we are prejudiced to see something as dumb, it is hard to see when it acts intelligently.

    after some reading i found that the illithids (mind flayers) usually implant their tadpoles in humanoids, they have been known to experiment with the occasional sucess in other animals. the brain-stealer dragon, for example. there is also the possibility of only partial transformations, where the original outward characteristics are kept though with the internal transformation of a full, though juvenile, mind flayer is completed, ie. brain and digestive system. there are even the more rare and powerful form of illithid called the ulitharid.

    so, my stab in the dark and totally wild guess is that the MitD is some form of seemingly failed, and possibly abandoned, experiment. an ulitharid implanted in some extrememly powerful, maybe epic, monster but failed in some aspect. sort of like the brain-stealer dragon, but without the need to eat brains? (i know that the BSD appeared after #100 but not sure if they were theoretically possible before then) so the ulitharid aspects and psionics, but mixed with a creature that can stomp, slam, and shout (maybe?). a creature that can be mistaken for one thing, but in essence is another altogether.

    i don't know... i know i am grasping at straws. i have no idea if someone has already suggested this, other than the BSD. but i feel like we might be kind of looking too hard in the wrong place. hell, it might even be a monster that has all the strength, etc, and still have four-six face tentacles, further hiding its mind flayer origins. so in the first encounter it may be mistakenly identified for MONSTER X, because it resembles one closely enough. but the first time it manifests some psionic abilities, everyone will be surprised and confused.

    i know it's a stretch, but why not?
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  19. - Top - End - #79
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    Default Re: MitD XIII: Learning is happening

    Quote Originally Posted by 3Power View Post
    Him appearing to explicitly use magic seems to be intended as a big plot twist, so it being hidden until then makes sense. Also, there are multiple occasions in the comic where magic is not explicitly accompanied by the spell name. Several of which include Xykon, namely, him animating the corpse of his dog as a child, him putting a sleeper trigger command on the MitD, and I seem to remember him zapping Haley during the big battle with something.
    So there are other places where this happens, my mistake. But no, it doesn't make sense for MitD to have been using magic all this time, if the "tell" for his magic in the Escape was his eyes glowing. As far as I can recall, there's no other scene where his eyes glow in response to an action he makes. My point is that magic in OotS relies on specific "tells" that indicate someone is using magic or not. If MitD was using magic in other scenes, I would expect the "tell" to be the same, or at least similarly explicit, to how it manifests in the Escape.

    Consider for a moment that Redcloak knows the MitD's species can cast spells. This may be his primary motive for freeing MitD from the circus, as Xykon has been MIA for an extended period of time. Then two things happen: Xykon shows up, and the MitD ends up displaying as much magic as a sedimentary rock. Xykon remains his best option because there's no guarantee the MitD will gain his spellcasting anytime soon.
    It's true that MitD hasn't been aware of the extent of his abilities, but I'm not convinced by this interpretation. If it was specifically the MitD's magical prowess that motivated Redcloak to rescue him, why didn't Redcloak state anything to that effect? Why would no one in this thread think of that, if it was actually in the text of the comic itself? Granted I haven't read SoD, so I can't really comment on anything with specifity here, but I would think that a creature that depends upon spellcasting for their power wouldn't hide it.

    I have liked the idea that his growth is stunted due to malnourishment. Him being constantly hungry is a well defined character trait.
    Out of curiosity, how do MitD's actions indicate he is stunted or unhealthy? His appetite itself could speak to any number of things, and I could be wrong, but I don't see anywhere in the comic where people wonder if he's ill, or unwell, or malnourished. Oona says in #1037 that he "will grow in time," though, so I might be wrong about there not being people who refer to him as a kid and such in the comic.
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    Default Re: MitD XIII: Learning is happening

    The teraport is somewhat like a science fiction teleport. It needs a device. I also don't know how the carbosilicate amorph should know where to send V and O-Chul.

    Another con of the carbosilicate amorph in my eyes is the size. A medium sized amorph is perfectly normal, and I don't know why Oona should expect it to grow larger. Yet setting a minimum size for the FBS failed in the recent vote, so it still fulfills the criteria.
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    Default Re: MitD XIII: Learning is happening

    Quote Originally Posted by Aspheric View Post
    So there are other places where this happens, my mistake. But no, it doesn't make sense for MitD to have been using magic all this time, if the "tell" for his magic in the Escape was his eyes glowing. As far as I can recall, there's no other scene where his eyes glow in response to an action he makes. My point is that magic in OotS relies on specific "tells" that indicate someone is using magic or not. If MitD was using magic in other scenes, I would expect the "tell" to be the same, or at least similarly explicit, to how it manifests in the Escape.
    Yeah, it seems unlikely that MitD has been using magic at any other point.

    Quote Originally Posted by Aspheric View Post
    It's true that MitD hasn't been aware of the extent of his abilities, but I'm not convinced by this interpretation. If it was specifically the MitD's magical prowess that motivated Redcloak to rescue him, why didn't Redcloak state anything to that effect? Why would no one in this thread think of that, if it was actually in the text of the comic itself? Granted I haven't read SoD, so I can't really comment on anything with specifity here, but I would think that a creature that depends upon spellcasting for their power wouldn't hide it.
    I mean it is possible that the MitD's species's most powerful abilities are magical, but they can't be anything that is a result of having Cleric levels and probably not anything from a spell list that has Animate Undead as RC would ask him why he doesn't level up as a [Class] to learn Animate Dead. It is possible that RC went with Cleric instead of anything else because he was more certain of it, but that's still unlikely. Anything that inherently knows or can easily know Animate Dead without leveling up in a class should be out of the picture, or at least have a serious Con.

    Quote Originally Posted by Aspheric View Post
    Out of curiosity, how do MitD's actions indicate he is stunted or unhealthy? His appetite itself could speak to any number of things, and I could be wrong, but I don't see anywhere in the comic where people wonder if he's ill, or unwell, or malnourished. Oona says in #1037 that he "will grow in time," though, so I might be wrong about there not being people who refer to him as a kid and such in the comic.
    Aside from it being plausible that MitD wasn't fed much in the circus because he would devour anything they gave him, there's nothing to suggest he is stunted as opposed to a voracious eater. It is possible that he is stunted, but there is very little evidence to suggest as such that isn't far more easily seen as "he eats a lot".

    Quote Originally Posted by Joerg View Post
    The teraport is somewhat like a science fiction teleport. It needs a device. I also don't know how the carbosilicate amorph should know where to send V and O-Chul.
    Ah okay, thanks for clearing that up. I guess if it was teleporting them to "where the Paladins are", that would work.

    Quote Originally Posted by locksmith of lo View Post
    -snippity-
    i know it's a stretch, but why not?
    I mean that sounds interesting, but you are having enough ideas flung around that MitD would either be seen as unguessable or a homebrew.
    Last edited by Squire Doodad; 2019-03-31 at 10:11 AM.
    An explanation of why MitD being any larger than Huge is implausible.

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  22. - Top - End - #82
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    Default Re: MitD XIII: Learning is happening

    Quote Originally Posted by Aspheric View Post
    So I've been lurking around this thread for a while, and there's something I've been wondering about.

    (snip)The only time where it seems like he explicitly uses magic is in the Escape scene, which admittedly does break with OotS' spellcasting rules; but it's the only time in the comic that this is the case, possibly to further complicate the mystery of who MitD "really is." So much of the MitD's capacities are described as physical actions (i.e. "swallow him whole," "stomp the ground," "pull on this rope," etc.) that I don't think it makes much sense to say that it's the product of Telekinesis, Earthquake, and so on.

    There's another thing that bugs me about this that involves Redcloak's plan regarding the ritual. We know for certain that Redcloak needs Xykon for the ritual because it demands a powerful arcane spellcaster as well as a divine one. Most monsters with spellcasting, as I understand it, are arcane spellcasters, and the ones powerful enough to explain the Escape seem powerful enough to complete the arcane component of the ritual. This creates the following plot-related predicament: why would Redcloak betray his own brother for Xykon, if the MitD has the capacity to handle the arcane spellcasting himself? I don't think that the answer to that can be Redcloak turning around and saying, "oh whoops, MitD is powerful monster and a sorcerer, I was wrong about him after all!" I personally think this disqualifies candidates with extensive spellcasting more than anything, since it forms a real plot hole, but maybe that's just me.
    These are both good points, to me. And spellcasting is different from SLA or psionics, which Redcloak was still not even sure existed in the world, so those are both possibilities for the Escape scene.
    Quote Originally Posted by Grey_Wolf_c View Post
    Also, everything Darth Paul just said.
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    Default Re: MitD XIII: Learning is happening

    I think an upper limit to size shouldn't be a consideration for FBS. Reason being that we know that MITD is smaller than he should be. There are animals in real life that start off tiny and end up large, like an aligator or croc. There is at least one case where an aligator was confined in a small area for most of it's life and stayed a small size and shows juvinille colourations despite it's age. I think it's possible MitD may have had a similar issue, being confined in a box and not able to grow any larger.

    (If interested it's Rex the aligator from Snake discovery)

  24. - Top - End - #84
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    Default Re: MitD XIII: Learning is happening

    Quote Originally Posted by DeathChallenged View Post
    I think an upper limit to size shouldn't be a consideration for FBS. Reason being that we know that MITD is smaller than he should be. There are animals in real life that start off tiny and end up large, like an aligator or croc. There is at least one case where an aligator was confined in a small area for most of it's life and stayed a small size and shows juvinille colourations despite it's age. I think it's possible MitD may have had a similar issue, being confined in a box and not able to grow any larger.

    (If interested it's Rex the aligator from Snake discovery)
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    It's 8 or so posts from the top of this page, very large text with a couple of bold numbers. Read that.
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    Last edited by Squire Doodad; 2019-03-31 at 10:18 AM.
    An explanation of why MitD being any larger than Huge is implausible.

    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
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    Green is the color of serious conversation about theoretical ideas, if transitioning from other stuff
    Blue is the color of irony and sarcasm


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  25. - Top - End - #85
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    Default Re: MitD XIII: Learning is happening

    A vote call within the first two pages??? "... and the votes don't matter" was meant as snarkiness, not a suggestion.

    If I had the energy, I'd go through all of the old threads to catalogue all votes and their results. I'd then propose a "No votes on issues decided within two threads without new comic-based information" rule.

    Maybe I should have gone with "...and the FBS doesn't matter" so people would stop getting hung up on it so much.
    Last edited by Throknor; 2019-03-31 at 10:27 AM. Reason: typos

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    Default Re: MitD XIII: Learning is happening

    Quote Originally Posted by CriticalFailure View Post
    I mean, I agree that MiTD probably won't grow into a colossal creature but it's also not reasonable to apply the growth time line of real life humans to the situation either. I don't see why "humans don't grow that much from pre-teen to adult" is supposed to rule out MiTD being a member of a Huge species here.

    Also, what age range equivalent is the MiTD pinned down as? I don't really know what range "young enough to play with transformers and have tea parties, old enough to be interested in dwarf sex" translates to.
    I think it's been assumed (and therefore established as an informal standard) that MitD's mental age is equivalent to a human that is somewhere from 11-14, being either somewhat mature or extremely childish depending on which end of that spectrum, but childish nonetheless.

    While it sounds easy to project a child going from one age group to the next being like one size category to the next, you would only see a change in any size category at all from newborn to adult (assuming a species is not specifically on the cusp of a certain size). Most animals have significant changes in growth, but going from near maturity (say, a preteen) to an adult would not usually mean a size category change unless they are already on the border.
    Think of it in human terms: while humans go through significant growth spurts around puberty, the growth spurts aren't nearly as big as a size category difference. We might grow over 20% of the original height (from a preteen to a fully grown person), but the change from one size category to the next is double the size. A shift in size that significant is like instead of your 11 year old cousin going from 5'3'' to 6'2'' by the time he is 18, he inexplicably goes from 5'3'' to 9'8''. This just gets worse as you go higher, with going from Large to Colossal being tantamount to that 5'3'' kid growing to 40 feet. (For reference, from Large to Gargantuan would be 20 feet. Still implausible.)
    So if MitD is a very big Large now, and the adult size is unknown, he could plausibly turn out to be a moderate Huge with some margin of error. But if MitD is a very small Huge now (or even anything that is not a very big Huge), he cannot turn out to be a Gargantuan when he is an adult based on "normal" animal growth.
    Last edited by Squire Doodad; 2019-03-31 at 10:41 AM.
    An explanation of why MitD being any larger than Huge is implausible.

    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
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  27. - Top - End - #87
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    WolfInSheepsClothing

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    Default Re: MitD XIII: Learning is happening

    I still doubt the MiTD’s species growth as depicted in the comic will be based on how much and when humans grow. It’s most likely a mythological creature/d&d monster and it’s in a fantasy webcomic that takes liberties with creature size as it is; given the context Oona’s statement about MiTD being so small and the statement about his father being very large are both more significant pieces of info than “well humans don’t grow like that”

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    Default Re: MitD XIII: Learning is happening

    Quote Originally Posted by CriticalFailure View Post
    I still doubt the MiTD’s species growth as depicted in the comic will be based on how much and when humans grow. It’s most likely a mythological creature/d&d monster and it’s in a fantasy webcomic that takes liberties with creature size as it is; given the context Oona’s statement about MiTD being so small and the statement about his father being very large are both more significant pieces of info than “well humans don’t grow like that”
    The point is that few animals that aren't incredibly small do most of their growth on the way to maturity as opposed to shortly after birth. If MitD was a newborn at the beginning of the comic, then he could become something quite big by the end! But still, I don't see him growing more than a fraction of his current size and as I have said a change in category requires the size to double.
    Also, if Oona doesn't actually know what he is (possibly because she misinterpreted it, or saw him shapeshifted instead of what he is if MitD is a Protean), then for all we know he is going to grow a small amount more then stop. If you are going with the "mindwiped Outsider" idea, then he could be fully grown and just a dwarf of his species. And if he was raised by a gargantuan monster that is a different species, then while that would undermine the validity of some clues it would mean that he could just not grow that big.

    Also, the vast majority of mythological creatures were loosely based on or were misinterpretations of real animals, meaning they would have growth rates reminiscent of real animals. It would probably be far greater, but still a far cry from doubling in size unless it is a creature specifically known for doing that (like a little innocent red dog that grows and grows and becomes a humongous monster in a few weeks).
    Last edited by Squire Doodad; 2019-03-31 at 11:02 AM.
    An explanation of why MitD being any larger than Huge is implausible.

    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
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    Purple is the color of humorous descriptions made up on the fly
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    Blue is the color of irony and sarcasm


    In the end, its all in the cards...

  29. - Top - End - #89
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    Default Re: MitD XIII: Learning is happening

    The MiTD is more likely to grow at the speed of the plot/artistic convenience than at the speed of real life human species.

    And what would be the point of Oona saying he’ll grow a lot and that how father was much larger if they just meant a 10% size increase?

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    Default Re: MitD XIII: Learning is happening

    Quote Originally Posted by CriticalFailure View Post
    And what would be the point of Oona saying he’ll grow a lot and that how father was much larger if they just meant a 10% size increase?
    That's my issue with the idea that MitD was raised by a different creature. Incidentally it's more likely that he doesn't actually know how big his species is and saw his father as being vastly larger because he was young at the time.

    ...I should probably learn to not bring up secondary arguments I don't agree with to point out that I know they are there.
    An explanation of why MitD being any larger than Huge is implausible.

    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    It shall be swift and ruthless. Unless any Ruths intend to join, in which case it shall be ruthful.
    Purple is the color of humorous descriptions made up on the fly
    Green is the color of serious conversation about theoretical ideas, if transitioning from other stuff
    Blue is the color of irony and sarcasm


    In the end, its all in the cards...

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