MitD XIII: Learning is happening

[Riftwolf]

A quick thought the last comic bought up: has MitD ever been tricked by invisibility? It's just we had a Nightcrawler establishing some creatures can see invisibility innately, and we've now had attackers using Greater Invisibility/innate invisibility. I'm wondering if MitD knows the identity of the new characters. I know this sounds facetious but it's a genuine question!

[Quebbster]

A quick thought the last comic bought up: has MitD ever been tricked by invisibility? It's just we had a Nightcrawler establishing some creatures can see invisibility innately, and we've now had attackers using Greater Invisibility/innate invisibility. I'm wondering if MitD knows the identity of the new characters. I know this sounds facetious but it's a genuine question!

He saw the Three Xykon decoys, but not the Greater Invisibility-using real deal. That's an indication at least that he cannot see the invisible just like that.

[Crusher]

You guys have been thinking of the MitD for 13 threads, so I assume you thought of it before, but I can't see anything about it in Section 2 of the thread. What is your consensus about the fact that MitD understands what the demon roaches say (for instance in #477)? I don't remember any other member of Team Evil showing that they hear and understand the roaches, and I don't know enough about D&D to know what would be required for such an ability.

It turned out Team Evil can see the roaches (as can Jirix, since he stomps one right after Team Evil heads out), but this was an excellent observation I can't remember having been made before (or at least, certainly not in a very long time).

A quick thought the last comic bought up: has MitD ever been tricked by invisibility? It's just we had a Nightcrawler establishing some creatures can see invisibility innately, and we've now had attackers using Greater Invisibility/innate invisibility. I'm wondering if MitD knows the identity of the new characters. I know this sounds facetious but it's a genuine question!

Also a really good suggestion. A LOT of epic and near epic monsters have See Invisibility or True Sight, MitD potentially not having it is significant.

Honestly, stuff like this is really nice to see. Even if you haven't read all of this thread (yikes) or the prior 12 (double yikes), you can absolutely chime in with a thoughtful question about an observation you've had. To be clear, 90+% of those observations will be things that have been discussed at great length at some point in the past, but that's totally fine, because its ok not to have an encyclopedic knowledge of the prior discussion (as long as you aren't difficult about it).

And, wading through the 90% of already considered points is a small price to pay for the 5-10% of the time the observation is something genuinely new or perhaps an new spin on an old point. Again, it might not end up changing anything, but its still a significant value-add.

Also, on another point, look at all those new votes and vote changes! I'll add them in, and thanks to GW_c for answering Darth Paul's question.

[The Aboleth]

Honestly, stuff like this is really nice to see. Even if you haven't read all of this thread (also yikes) or the prior 12 (double yikes), you can absolutely chime in with a thoughtful question about an observation you've had. To be clear, 90+% of those observations will be things that have been discussed at great length at some point in the past, but that's totally fine, because its ok not to have an encyclopedic knowledge of the prior discussion (as long as you aren't difficult about it).

And, wading through the 90% of already considered points is a small price to pay for the 5-10% of the time the observation is something genuinely new or perhaps an new spin on an old point.

Not only that, but having any excuse to go back and look through the old comics to back up or refute a claim is incredibly fun and satisfying (at least to me). I went back to look for the strip in which Jirix stomps the demon roach and ended up re-reading the entire sequence of Redcloak destroying the Resistance and switching out the phylacteries, something I hadn't done in years!

[Asmodeus1389]

It turned out Team Evil can see the roaches (as can Jirix, since he stomps one right after Team Evil heads out), but this was an excellent observation I can't remember having been made before (or at least, certainly not in a very long time).

That is an interesting observation, but I just happened to be reading this comic today - Belkar sees, hears, and speaks to a demon roach in #476. (I apparently don't have enough posts to include a link to it, sorry.)

[Peelee]

That is an interesting observation, but I just happened to be reading this comic today - Belkar sees, hears, and speaks to a demon roach in #476. (I apparently don't have enough posts to include a link to it, sorry.)

That's ok, I got your back!

[b_jonas]

A LOT of epic and near epic monsters have See Invisibility or True Sight, MitD potentially not having it is significant.

In #76, Durkon has to explicitly turn on his darkvision, and he says he almost forgot that he could do that. Since the MitD lived in the circus for a long time, then with Xykon and Redcloak, he could similarly forget that he can turn on his see ivnisible ability.

[Crusher]

That is an interesting observation, but I just happened to be reading this comic today - Belkar sees, hears, and speaks to a demon roach in #476. (I apparently don't have enough posts to include a link to it, sorry.)

I forgot about that. Good comic.

Also, it’s probably not significant, but I also forgot one of the demon roaches eats some of the stew.

[Quebbster]

He saw the Three Xykon decoys, but not the Greater Invisibility-using real deal. That's an indication at least that he cannot see the invisible just like that.

Looking at the last strip again... Have we condidered that the MitD seems to be able to see Xykon and the dragon without aid, while Redcloak seems to need a looking glass?
It's nothing that can be quantified, but at the very least poor perception should be a strike against any prospective candidates.

[CriticalFailure]

I wonder if Redcloak doesn't bother with MiTD's species name because he knows it's too long for Xykon to put up with.

[Quartz]

He saw the Three Xykon decoys, but not the Greater Invisibility-using real deal. That's an indication at least that he cannot see the invisible just like that.

I'm not sure that's a clue. Xykon might just be out of sight.

[Quebbster]

I'm not sure that's a clue. Xykon might just be out of sight.

MitD could see three Xykons while the invisibility was in effect and four after it was dispelled. I wouldn't call it a clue either, but it's something to take into consideration at least.

[Quartz]

No, it does not. It is light reflecting on its head spike, not an eye, just as Squire Doodad and Aveline said when you last claimed this.

I disagreed with them then and I disagree with you now.

No picture I've seen has eyes, including the one you posted:

Spoiler: Pictures

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That's a clear eye to me in the first picture. As for the others, are they official WOTC pics? Do they post-date the ELH or strip 100? I only have the one in the ELH.

No, that is not true, anymore than Xykon needs vocal chords to speak.

But Xykon has a mouth. ICBW but I think the only things that we've seen speak without mouths are the lantern archons. Even the elementals had mouths. And I'm using seen deliberately because there have been invisible creatures, like in the current strip, 1189.

[Joerg]

So, we'll not get any new information on the MitD for a few months. Before this thread is full (or gets filled with thread title suggestions), and before everyone goes away into holidays, I'd like to formally suggest that when the next thread is set up, species size is regarded differently in the pro/con information of the FBS creatures. Specifically, I propose that:

A) Large species size is not mentioned as a con due to "doesn't fit under the umbrella"
B) Huge species size is not mentioned as a con
C) Medium species size is not mentioned as a pro due to "does fit under the umbrella"
D) Medium species size is mentioned as a con due to "MitD would not be described as 'so small' by Oona"

The reason is that we have multiple clues that the MitD is very small for his species. In particular Oona's "so small" and MitDs description of his father as "BIG". In my opinion, these are lampshades which shall tell us that the species is at least one category larger than what the MitD is; so it is at least listed as Large, maybe even as Huge (note that a small specimen of a 'huge' species may be the same size as a big specimen of a 'large' species; so an 8ft-MitD may be just one size category smaller than Huge).

Note: I don't suggest using the size as a criterion for the FBS category, so this would not change which creatures are listed in that category. I just want the pros / cons to be updated.

I realize that having four separate suggestions is a bit problematic with the usual voting system, but I want it open for a result where e.g. A and C are implemented, but B and D are not, if the people vote that way. If possible, I would tweak the voting in a way that B is not allowed without A and D is not allowed without C since both of these don't make much sense. I can also count the votes if GW has too much on their plate at the moment.

For the record, here is what is currently listed about the size for the FBS creatures:

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Spoiler: Athasian Nightmare Beast

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Nothing. It is actually a huge creature.

Spoiler: Glabrezu

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"Huge would not really fit under the umbrella"

Spoiler: Protean

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"adequate size". It is a large creature.

Spoiler: Hunting Horror

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"Too big to fit under either umbrella or box." (is it huge?)

Spoiler: Carbosilicate Amorph

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"Fits under the umbrella easily, but his dad could have been bigger if he had eaten recently". It is normally a medium-sized creature.

Spoiler: Slaad

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"White one fits in the box/umbrella. Black only in the box." I assume the white one is medium and the black one is large.

Spoiler: Uvuudaum

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"Large size, so fits in the box (not so much under the umbrella)"

[Grey_Wolf_c]

I disagreed with them then and I disagree with you now.

And in the absence of anything other than your heartfelt opinion, it is not a nitpick.

But Xykon has a mouth.

No he doesn't.. And even when he does have a lower jaw, he's not using it to speak. The assertion that every creature in OotS requires a mouth to speak is plainly not true.

Grey Wolf

[Quartz]

Can we learn anything about the Monster from Xykon's statement way back that even he earned some XP when exploring the tunnels?

What if we set a range of levels 21 to 29 (CR 23-31) for Xykon? (That's based on his casting of Superb Dispelling discussed elsewhere.) Oona and Redcloak are level 17-20 so will not add to the party CR.

To earn XP from a lower-level encounter the challenge must be within 7 (q.v. Belkar outside the walls of Azure City). That gives us CR 16 to 24. And he's bringing along the Monster, so the Monster must be able to survive a CR 16 - 24 challenge. That is, the juvenile monster must be able to survive that. My favourite option, the Athasian Nightmare Beast seems a little wimpy, with the adult only CR 18.

[CriticalFailure]

I agree about size there seem to be lots of hints the MiTD is much smaller than adults of his species.

[Ruck]

The reason is that we have multiple clues that the MitD is very small for his species. In particular Oona's "so small" and MitDs description of his father as "BIG". In my opinion, these are lampshades which shall tell us that the species is at least one category larger than what the MitD is; so it is at least listed as Large, maybe even as Huge (note that a small specimen of a 'huge' species may be the same size as a big specimen of a 'large' species; so an 8ft-MitD may be just one size category smaller than Huge).

Isn't this exactly the logic that led to the conclusions for size requirements that already exist in this thread?

[Peelee]

That's a clear eye to me in the first picture.

What is? The streaky part? The part to the right of the streaky part? Is that even a head, or just some wonky appendage? Given that there is a streaky part and a round part, and they look like each other (the round part being non-streaky and the streaky part being non-round as the only differences), so as to look like reflected lighting. In any event, I don't think it's a "clear" eye, even if I did think it was an eye.

ICBW but I think the only things that we've seen speak without mouths are the lantern archons.

I beg your pardon?

[Joerg]

Isn't this exactly the logic that led to the conclusions for size requirements that already exist in this thread?

Maybe, though the only requirement as far as I am aware is that the size for a FBS creature must not be larger than huge.

But I don't want to change requirements anyway, I want to adapt the pro / con descriptions.

[Crusher]

Can we learn anything about the Monster from Xykon's statement way back that even he earned some XP when exploring the tunnels?

What if we set a range of levels 21 to 29 (CR 23-31) for Xykon? (That's based on his casting of Superb Dispelling discussed elsewhere.) Oona and Redcloak are level 17-20 so will not add to the party CR.

To earn XP from a lower-level encounter the challenge must be within 7 (q.v. Belkar outside the walls of Azure City). That gives us CR 16 to 24. And he's bringing along the Monster, so the Monster must be able to survive a CR 16 - 24 challenge. That is, the juvenile monster must be able to survive that. My favourite option, the Athasian Nightmare Beast seems a little wimpy, with the adult only CR 18.

How do we know Oona is 17-20? Also, even if that’s the case, she and RC being 17-20 isn’t an argument against MitD being in that same range. Against being, say, CR12 sure. But there’s no evidence MitD is clearly more powerful than RC.

[CriticalFailure]

I assumed Oona was probably lower level than Redcloak? Is there evidence otherwise, I didn't think we knew much about her level.

[Darth Paul]

It's in the first page. Just ctrl-F your name:


Grey Wolf

Thanks. I haven't been through the thread in so long, I forgot we even had that list. Doy.

I beg your pardon?

I never promised you a rose garden.....

[ThriKreenLich]

I have something that may not have been considered before. In comic #887, when The Order is under the "phantasmagoria" spell the MitD is seen shaking "hands" with or somehow touching O-Chul. This may be a clue, or it may be inane babbling on my part.

[CriticalFailure]

The Order have no idea what it is.

[Riftwolf]

I have something that may not have been considered before. In comic #887, when The Order is under the "phantasmagoria" spell the MitD is seen shaking "hands" with or somehow touching O-Chul. This may be a clue, or it may be inane babbling on my part.

MitD: a Puzzle of Flesh?

[Quebbster]

I assumed Oona was probably lower level than Redcloak? Is there evidence otherwise, I didn't think we knew much about her level.

According to the C&LG thread, she is at least level 15. She needs 9 levels in the Beast Heart Adept prestige class to have an yrthak companion, and she needs at least 6 levels in another class before she can get BHA class levels.

[b_jonas]

The comic has a fruit pie sorcerer and movie snacks who have a mouth. Even if the MitD were of a species that does not normally have a mouth, he could still have a mouth in the OotS.

Oh, while we're at mouths. Do flumphs have a mouth?

Update: if movie snacks are not enough, consider the Chlorine elemental that says "kill all humans" has no mouth. We don't know if the gold elemental in #1028 has a mouth, and it speaks. So the lantern archons aren't alone.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Thanks. I haven't been through the thread in so long, I forgot we even had that list. Doy.

No problem; anytime. Remembering what is and is not in the first page is in my job description, after all.

Grey Wolf

[DLcygnet]

Section 3: Proposed Ideas

Section 3a: Suggestions that Fit the Big Scenes (FBS)

Spoiler

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This category groups ideas that fit the clues in the major scenes of MitD, with the following characteristics (as per thread consensus):
1) Has a plausible explanation for the Escape
2) Has a plausible explanation for the Tower (both his attack and his defence)
3) Has a plausible explanation for the Circus (both his act, and the reactions)
4) Isn't one of the impossible categories (unless it is an exception)
5) Existed before strip #100 in a form accessible to Rich.
6) Size no bigger than Huge ("fits in the box")
7) Is vulnerable to mind-affecting effects (SoD)

The proposals may still have other objections (such as that the above explanations require stretching the rules of D&D).


Hagunemnon (Protean) (SRD or ELH 196)

Spoiler

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Pros:

• Great strength (53)
• Access to Planar Travel through convenient partial shapeshift into e.g. Umbral Blot, which includes greater teleport
• As a psionic creature, it may have been converted by the means described in the Expanded Psionics handbook, which would give him psionic teleport
• adequate size
• his shapeshifting sounds disturbing, but has 34 CHA.
• Normally speak only ever-evolving language impossible for any non-protean to understand, thus being surprising it talks in common.
• Its psionic ability to detect thoughts would explain his knowledge of the ritual, probably having heard RC's thoughts on the subject.
• Fluff implies there are protean newborns, so presumably they have some form of parentage ("Even newborns are tides of flesh, ever changing")

Cons:

• Plane shift doesn't fit well with the escape as shown (see 1b: The Escape), and while greater teleport fits slightly better, it requires a timely shapeshift into the exact appropriate creature. There is no evidence that psionic-class creatures have been converted as per EP handbook.
• Its constant shapeshifting has not been reflected in a change of MitD (mouth and eyes stay roughly the same)

I think I'll throw my hat in with the other 20.5 people voting for this option. Pardon if I'm repeating something. I know this hasn't been updated since March, but if all I have to go on is these few sections from an online SRD, then there are plenty of options for making the escape scene work. Dimension door is great for sending off two medium subjects desperate to get away from Xykon, plus they were incapacitated/distracted/resigned to death, so I don't think they would have resisted any spell. MitD might even have picked up the new Azure city fleet location from V's mind since that's the only person who would have known the EXACT location anyway. Range/touch requirements? Personally, I think rule of cool is in effect. But, Extraordinary Abilities (basically an in-rules physics breaker) could cover both of these. Ditto for fudging ethereal jaunt and plane shift. Sounds exhausting. I'd go to sleep too. As for not showing the constant shape shifting... seems like a narrative dead giveaway. Something to add: Amazing Diplomacy stats to explain his nuanced political analysis (Hobgoblins, Bugbears). Knock explains how O'chul kept breaking out (Seriously, snapping the bar on a steel cage? He can't out-paladin the rules THAT much.) Suggestion explains how team Evil does what he wants them to (Skip staying to kill Roy again, Ignore extra doors getting painted) - serious "These aren't the droids you're looking for" moments (High bluff/diplomacy helps too, I guess). What I don't really understand is how a creature with such high stats could be so... innocent? oblivious? dense? I guess anybody can roll a 3 on initial stat rolls, but still.