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    Default Re: MitD XIII: Learning is happening

    Quote Originally Posted by Aspheric View Post
    Does no one know what the Hagunemnon's immunities are, though? It's odd that they're not included in its own statblock... and I still want to know!
    Now we're truly back where we started, because it was reading over the stat block that made me notice that Intimidate skill. And the reason I was reading? Trying to find the list of immunities, and failing completely.

    The Pathfinder version online has immunity to acid and polymorph attacks, as well as resistance (10) to electricity and sonic attacks. It also has a 50% chance to avoid added damage from sneak attacks and critical hits due to the shifting nature and location of its vital organs. However, this protean is considerably different from the 3.5 protean. The Pathfinder Protean is a serpent-like Outsider. link
    Last edited by Darth Paul; 2019-04-10 at 12:24 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Grey_Wolf_c View Post
    Also, everything Darth Paul just said.
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    Default Re: MitD XIII: Learning is happening

    Quote Originally Posted by Darth Paul View Post
    Now we're truly back where we started, because it was reading over the stat block that made me notice that Intimidate skill. And the reason I was reading? Trying to find the list of immunities, and failing completely.

    The Pathfinder version online has immunity to acid and polymorph attacks, as well as resistance (10) to electricity and sonic attacks. It also has a 50% chance to avoid added damage from sneak attacks and critical hits due to the shifting nature and location of its vital organs. However, this protean is considerably different from the 3.5 protean. The Pathfinder Protean is a serpent-like Outsider. link
    My tactics of diversion have succeeded! I AM CHAOS!! *backflips into a river*

    ... but yeah, Pathfinder Proteans are the main Chaos-aligned beings in that world, or so I believe? Why they're specifically serpentine, as opposed to formless, shifting beings like the 3.5 Hagunemnon, I think is strange, since the latter version of the Protean seems more fitting for an embodiement of the forces of Chaos, and more interesting as well. Still wondering about those immunities though, if anyone finds the answer!
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    Default Re: MitD XIII: Learning is happening

    Quote Originally Posted by Aspheric View Post
    My tactics of diversion have succeeded! I AM CHAOS!! *backflips into a river*

    ... but yeah, Pathfinder Proteans are the main Chaos-aligned beings in that world, or so I believe? Why they're specifically serpentine, as opposed to formless, shifting beings like the 3.5 Hagunemnon, I think is strange, since the latter version of the Protean seems more fitting for an embodiement of the forces of Chaos, and more interesting as well. Still wondering about those immunities though, if anyone finds the answer!
    Probably because the original was designed based on one of the HP lovecraft horrors (the shoggot?) and they changed it to another one of the HP lovecraft horrors which are serpentine in form. since most of the creatures designed on D&D are adaptation of creatures of literature or similar (I recall a monster that is a flying shrimp based on a french cuisine plate) Oo

  4. - Top - End - #244
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    Default Re: MitD XIII: Learning is happening

    It was originally based on the Hagunemnons from The Hitch-Hiker's Guide to the Galaxy, the original radio series (they don't appear in the books).

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    Default Re: MitD XIII: Learning is happening

    Quote Originally Posted by Sir_Norbert View Post
    It was originally based on the Hagunemnons from The Hitch-Hiker's Guide to the Galaxy, the original radio series (they don't appear in the books).
    Hitchhiker's Wiki: Haggunenons

    Man, I really need to find the radio broadcasts (or their scripts).

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    Default Re: MitD XIII: Learning is happening

    Quote Originally Posted by Throknor View Post
    Hitchhiker's Wiki: Haggunenons

    Man, I really need to find the radio broadcasts (or their scripts).
    Mp3s do exist, as that's how I heard em back in the day, but don't ask me how to obtain them anymore. The old ways are lost.
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    Default Re: MitD XIII: Learning is happening

    Quote Originally Posted by Aspheric View Post
    Does no one know what the Hagunemnon's immunities are, though? It's odd that they're not included in its own statblock... and I still want to know!
    As far as I can tell, the Haguemnon's immunities were never listed. They're left out of the Epic Level Handbook, and neither the ELH errata nor the ELH 3.5 update booklet say anything about them.

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    Default Re: MitD XIII: Learning is happening

    Quote Originally Posted by InvisibleBison View Post
    As far as I can tell, the Haguemnon's immunities were never listed. They're left out of the Epic Level Handbook, and neither the ELH errata nor the ELH 3.5 update booklet say anything about them.
    Maybe, as a 3rd ed monster, it had the Shapechanger Type rather than subtype, and Shapechangers in 3rd ed had specific type-based immunities - perhaps to polymorphing?
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    Default Re: MitD XIII: Learning is happening

    Quote Originally Posted by Grey_Wolf_c View Post
    This is addressed in the protean's entry in 3a.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jineon View Post
    The problem I see with the Protean is that it can meet most requirements we can throw at it by default. The Escape scene was maybe the hardest for it to meet it and we have an explanation for that (which I can find fitting enough).

    So, the Protean is a winner by default, which I find a bit anti-climactic, so I like to ask myself the question, may there be another winner? I like the idea of White Slaad turning Black upon reveal but we've seen a Slaad (albeit a Red one) and the eyes don't match like, at all.

    The ANB can't pull a rope for it's life but maybe it can use some kind of psionic telekinesis to do so? Can Telekinetic Thrust be used for something else than a thrust?

    The Glabrezu could fit as far as I'm concerned, though it's a bit low on Strength for both the Tower and the Stomp scenes.

    The Hunting Horror lacks limbs and I don't see it handling the rope, though as is well stated in the opening posts (thanks for putting them so orderly!), it could very well have limbs.

    The Carbosilicate Amorph shares its situation with the Protean. Not being stated in DnD, it's easy to have him reach the requirements as long as the Escape scene matches. Plus, I don't buy the Teraport explanation (but that's just me, though, of course, all this speech is just me - I'm not trying to invalidate any proposal here).

    And the Uvuudaum... no, just no. I really can't see Rich going for a creature with no eyes when deciding what the MitD would be, especially since he could still choose what abilities he'd want it to display at the time (so wasn't bound by the Big Scenes).

    I'm still looking through the other proposals so I may still pick a winner in there. I still have to go through all the Monsters for any Season too, in order to maybe pick a winner based on physical apearance and gut feeling.

    EDIT: Regarding the umbrella: I've been trying to think what kind of shadows could take the shape they do under it, specifically assessing if they could graphically be emited by the MitD. I've come to the conclusion that they're probably magical shadows, which could very well be cast by the umbrella itself, which would then be magical and, hey, if it's magical, why not also enchant it to magically follow the beast it's meant to hide while we (Xykon or Redcloak) are at it?

    I mean, the MitD does drop it from time to time, but that's when there's shadows around so that may be part of the enchantment of the umbrella.

    I've checked, by the way. The umbrella has the exact same length when covering the MitD and when lying on the ground so it's not holding it in its mouth.
    See, that's what I find highly problematic with the Protean as described..


    Quote Originally Posted by Sir_Norbert View Post
    It was originally based on the Hagunemnons from The Hitch-Hiker's Guide to the Galaxy, the original radio series (they don't appear in the books).
    Oh, THAT is interesting! I only know the books. And it's also sooooo close! Apperantly, it even has an ESCAPE scene, helping the protagonists escape. Unfortunately, thr mechanics don't match up.


    But being from a radio series would fit the "Have I ever been drawn?" VEEEERY well, which I think is a huge clue anyways.
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    Default Re: MitD XIII: Learning is happening

    Quote Originally Posted by Mightymosy View Post
    See, that's what I find highly problematic with the Protean as described..
    I'm puzzled by the sudden spate of "the Protean is problematic because it fits too well" posts.

    I'm about to come up with a proposal for a templated half-goblin red-dragon; that should avoid that issue, at least.
    Quote Originally Posted by Grey_Wolf_c View Post
    Also, everything Darth Paul just said.
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    Default Re: MitD XIII: Learning is happening

    The Protean is described as ever-shifting eyes. That fits almost as bad as no eyes.
    So no, that's not a problem with the Protean fitting too well.
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    Default Re: MitD XIII: Learning is happening

    Quote Originally Posted by hamishspence View Post
    Maybe, as a 3rd ed monster, it had the Shapechanger Type rather than subtype, and Shapechangers in 3rd ed had specific type-based immunities - perhaps to polymorphing?
    I thought about that, so I looked at a 3e SRD site. The Shapechanger type doesn't grant any immunities.

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    Default Re: MitD XIII: Learning is happening

    It's not as though "fits too well" is completely inane. It could feel against the spirit of the game if the answer is the creature that automatically has pretty much every* ability.

    It's a purely meta argument that has no apparent use, but it is there.

    *I'm sure not every every ability is represented among the ability types the Protean can replicate, but as far as I can tell, replicating Wish or Greater Teleport is what makes it such a strong contender by explaining the escape scene. So, at least a great many powerful abilities are replicable, clearly.
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    Default Re: MitD XIII: Learning is happening

    Quote Originally Posted by Aveline View Post
    It's not as though "fits too well" is completely inane. It could feel against the spirit of the game if the answer is the creature that automatically has pretty much every* ability.

    It's a purely meta argument that has no apparent use, but it is there.

    *I'm sure not every every ability is represented among the ability types the Protean can replicate, but as far as I can tell, replicating Wish or Greater Teleport is what makes it such a strong contender by explaining the escape scene. So, at least a great many powerful abilities are replicable, clearly.
    We have never found a wish Ex ability. Protean thus cannot access it

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    Last edited by Grey_Wolf_c; 2019-04-10 at 11:51 AM.
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    I would say that's the dumbest theory Grey Wolf's heard, but, let's be honest: It's Grey Wolf. They've probably heard dumber theories today. Point is, neat idea, but it's a real stretch.
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    Default Re: MitD XIII: Learning is happening

    Quote Originally Posted by Mightymosy View Post
    The Protean is described as ever-shifting eyes.
    [citation required]
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    Default Re: MitD XIII: Learning is happening

    Quote Originally Posted by Darth Paul View Post
    I'm puzzled by the sudden spate of "the Protean is problematic because it fits too well" posts.

    I'm about to come up with a proposal for a templated half-goblin red-dragon; that should avoid that issue, at least.
    I suspect part of the problem is an assumption that the Protean can do whatever it wants, whenever it wants, when it actually takes a conscious effort to partially shift into a specific species. I actually don't think "and then the MitD shifted into whatever was necessary to do the thing in the big scene" comes up nearly as often as has been suggested by the arguments; it's really only in the Escape scene.

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    Default Re: MitD XIII: Learning is happening

    Quote Originally Posted by Grey_Wolf_c View Post
    We have never found a wish Ex ability. Protean thus cannot access it

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    Alright, I misremembered that. My point though is that the Protean can, almost by default, solve most problems by finding a sufficient combination of extraordinary abilities among all statted 3.5 monsters ever*. Some - not me - may think of this as cheating in some way.

    I think the meta argument might actually help the Protean's case though, since MitD isn't supposed to know about all his powers.

    *Not ever ever. You know what I mean

    Edit: Okay, "almost by default" is a bit overstated.
    Last edited by Aveline; 2019-04-10 at 12:04 PM.

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    Default Re: MitD XIII: Learning is happening

    Quote Originally Posted by Ruck View Post
    I suspect part of the problem is an assumption that the Protean can do whatever it wants, whenever it wants, when it actually takes a conscious effort to partially shift into a specific species. I actually don't think "and then the MitD shifted into whatever was necessary to do the thing in the big scene" comes up nearly as often as has been suggested by the arguments; it's really only in the Escape scene.
    And the fact that he couldn't replicate it suggests that he got really lucky and picked the right creature out of several he may have accessed through having read Redcloak's mind over who knows how long. Or the creature he chose had a limited use ability which he... used. Hard to say how that would work on a mimic-type ability; if I mimic a creature that can use an ability once a month, I'm not the creature itself, so do I have the same limitation? Could I mimic the same creature again tomorrow and use that ability again?
    Last edited by Darth Paul; 2019-04-10 at 12:05 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Grey_Wolf_c View Post
    Also, everything Darth Paul just said.
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    Default Re: MitD XIII: Learning is happening

    Quote Originally Posted by Darth Paul View Post
    Now we're truly back where we started, because it was reading over the stat block that made me notice that Intimidate skill. And the reason I was reading? Trying to find the list of immunities, and failing completely.

    The Pathfinder version online has immunity to acid and polymorph attacks, as well as resistance (10) to electricity and sonic attacks. It also has a 50% chance to avoid added damage from sneak attacks and critical hits due to the shifting nature and location of its vital organs. However, this protean is considerably different from the 3.5 protean. The Pathfinder Protean is a serpent-like Outsider. link
    The Alter Shape ability notes that the Protean can take on the traits from the Incorporeal subtype, which counts as a single Extraordinary ability. This confers them with immunities to all non-magical attacks. But yeah, its innate immunities are not listed.

    Interestingly, the Incorporeal traits also confers the ability to pass through water, which is another explanation for the lack of footprints in the snow (I know there are a number of other explanations including hovering/flying or water-walk, but have these been identified as Ex abilities for any other creature?).

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    Default Re: MitD XIII: Learning is happening

    Quote Originally Posted by monomer View Post
    The Alter Shape ability notes that the Protean can take on the traits from the Incorporeal subtype, which counts as a single Extraordinary ability. This confers them with immunities to all non-magical attacks.
    Note that this only means immunity to the attacks of Miko, Haley, and Belkar if they were using nonmagical weapons. Otherwise, there's a 50% miss chance per attack. So explaining the creature's ability to ignore attacks which seemed to hit it as "the attackers were really unlucky and couldn't tell the difference between hitting nothing and hitting something they couldn't hurt"...wouldn't be satisfying to me, anyway.

    (It's pretty much got to be high damage reduction not ignored by magic, or really high AC, or outright immunity to their weapons, for my part. Or at least none of the alternatives people have proposed has ever looked at all viable to me.)
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    Default Re: MitD XIII: Learning is happening

    Quote Originally Posted by Darth Paul View Post
    And the fact that he couldn't replicate it suggests that he got really lucky and picked the right creature out of several he may have accessed through having read Redcloak's mind over who knows how long. Or the creature he chose had a limited use ability which he... used. Hard to say how that would work on a mimic-type ability; if I mimic a creature that can use an ability once a month, I'm not the creature itself, so do I have the same limitation? Could I mimic the same creature again tomorrow and use that ability again?
    Or, alternately, he didn't even entirely realize what he did in the Escape scene, and as the hobgoblin tells him, "You're just shouting synonyms at me," rather than actually shifting into a creature with a power.

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    Default Re: MitD XIII: Learning is happening

    Quote Originally Posted by Kish View Post
    Note that this only means immunity to the attacks of Miko, Haley, and Belkar if they were using nonmagical weapons. Otherwise, there's a 50% miss chance per attack. So explaining the creature's ability to ignore attacks which seemed to hit it as "the attackers were really unlucky and couldn't tell the difference between hitting nothing and hitting something they couldn't hurt"...wouldn't be satisfying to me, anyway.

    (It's pretty much got to be high damage reduction not ignored by magic, or really high AC, or outright immunity to their weapons, for my part. Or at least none of the alternatives people have proposed has ever looked at all viable to me.)
    I was mostly just trying to parse what the "Immunities" listed under its special abilities could be referring to, since the rest of the text doesn't go on to explain them. It is possible the Hagunemnon has no inherent immunities, except those he gets through Ex abilities / incorporeal traits. I didn't even consider that the Miko attack scene could be explained by the Incorporeal trait, since the Hagunemnon's DR is enough to satisfy me, though of course it doesn't hurt (i.e. half the attacks that would normally have been a hit missed and those that did land barely caused a sensation).

    The incorporeal trait also gives it a deflection bonus equal to its Charisma bonus (+12 for 34 Charisma). Now, what is unclear is if that would add on to its natural AC, or if its natural AC would be removed while the incorporeal traits are applied, though again, with such a high DR it probably doesn't matter.

    Additionally, incorporeal creatures have no weight (or mass presumably), which would tie back to the lack of tracks in the snow, but would also help explain why Redcloack can lift the MitD in addition to the (already too light) cage.

    On the other hand, incorporeal creatures can't move or manipulate an opponent or its equipment, and it would have no Strength bonus, so a standard incorporeal creature would not work for the tower scene, but a Hagunemnon borrowing the trait does (either by dropping the trait when getting ready to hit lightly, or by assuming that the trait does not apply to the whole Hagunemnon, and instead just the portion that is incorporeal).

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    Default Re: MitD XIII: Learning is happening

    Because I didn't get around to this last thread....
    Quote Originally Posted by Grey_Wolf_c View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Jasdoif View Post
    Grey_Wolf_c's posts have really clarified things for me: The vote targets the operational level of making the updates to the initial posts, rather than the tactical level of what updates should be made (as I had assumed).
    ...

    ...

    Great, now I'm not sure I know what I'm doing. Glad it makes sense to you when you put it that way, though.
    Well, consciously or not....The voting procedure resolving "what should we do next?" makes a great deal more sense than resolving "what all changes should we make?"; as a number of details that would be nonsense for the latter are logical for the former:

    • It is entirely reasonable for "What should we do next?" to be answered with a single choice.
    • "Nothing" is a perfectly valid response to "What should we do next?"
      • Similarly, rating a choice below "nothing" is a natural way to express "I think this would be an improvement, but not worth the overhead of doing".
    • A combination of options being treated as distinct from its component options acknowledges that options may be codependent (e.g. changing size requirements to allow a new explanation for a big scene with size bonuses) or conflicting (e.g. increasing a Strength requirement to raise a break DC and increasing a size requirement to raise a break DC, resulting in overshooting the target break DC by raising it twice).
      • Admittedly this looks a little awkward if primary support gets broken up between a combination and its component options, resembling a vote split. However, a noticable split in the votes would in fact reflect an actual split in opinion; between those thinking the changes should go together and those who think they should be separate.
        • Further, this is only likely to affect the outcome if there isn't an actual correlation between voter opinion on the options, and if there's another option that has better support than any of them. The ability to choose a broadly acceptable option over highly-polarized-and-conflicting popular options is usually a feature (and if I'm not mistaken, why you chose IRV over FPTP in the first place).
    • The selection of a single change (other than "nothing") doesn't mean all the other options have been voted down; the opportunity exists to push for them again, perhaps after seeing if the results of the selected change and/or new comic information affects their viability.



    All that said...Section 4b describing the voting process could benefit from stating some of these things.

    • That "A, B, C" represents a vote for the combination of A & B & C, and only the combination of A & B & C, should be called out. While it certainly makes sense, it isn't intuitive; my assumptions would have been that it represented giving equal weight to A/B/C individually, or that all the subsets (ABC/AB/AC/BC/A/B/C) are equally weighted.
    • Assuming only considering options appearing on a majority of ballots (should any exist) is in fact standard for votes, it should definitely be mentioned as it's not standard for IRV.
    • Mentioning that votes decide which single change is done next certainly wouldn't hurt, to mitigate confusion over votes attempting to reflect all the changes together.

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    Default Re: MitD XIII: Learning is happening

    I want to refine my guess.

    MiTD is a Li Lung with Wilder levels.

    Not really sure how allowable that is or whatever in terms of the rules, but then again to paraphrase the Dark One in SoD, the rules for monster PCs are crap anyways.
    "For you see, I theorize that the halfling does not possess a true sentient brain, like you or I, but rather a simple lump of nerve tissue that serves as a primitive "proto-brain" that can only process two emotional reactions to people: Hate or Lust."

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    Default Re: MitD XIII: Learning is happening

    Quote Originally Posted by Lombard View Post
    I want to refine my guess.

    MiTD is a Li Lung with Wilder levels.

    Not really sure how allowable that is or whatever in terms of the rules, but then again to paraphrase the Dark One in SoD, the rules for monster PCs are crap anyways.
    Anything is allowable in the voting! People might argue against you guessing the MitD is a Centaur with the elite array and a ring of 3-wishes, but they can't say you were wrong.
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    Default Re: MitD XIII: Learning is happening

    Quote Originally Posted by Mightymosy View Post
    But being from a radio series would fit the "Have I ever been drawn?" VEEEERY well, which I think is a huge clue anyways.
    It makes for a nifty inside joke, but odds are MitD is referring to himself being drawn as opposed to his species (i.e. Rich has drawn non-stick figure goblins, but has he drawn non-stick figure REDCLOAK?)
    An explanation of why MitD being any larger than Huge is implausible.

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    Default Re: MitD XIII: Learning is happening

    Quote Originally Posted by Throknor View Post
    Hitchhiker's Wiki: Haggunenons

    Man, I really need to find the radio broadcasts (or their scripts).
    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    Mp3s do exist, as that's how I heard em back in the day, but don't ask me how to obtain them anymore. The old ways are lost.
    The scripts were published in book form (I've had a copy since the 1990s, but a brief look on Amazon indicates that it's still pretty available and not particularly expensive), and it looks like the radio series might be on Amazon Audible (I have also had a copy of that since the 1990s) as well as CDs and such (it was once available on cassette tapes and LPs as well).

    FWIW, I'm not sold on Haggunenon being a good fit at all based on the presentation in the radio show, but I'm not particularly familiar with the D&D version or what lore/fluff it may have accumulated in the hearts and minds of D&D players as it got further away from the original source material. If anyone wants me to check the episode or script for some specific piece of information, I could certainly do that and report back.

  28. - Top - End - #268
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    Default Re: MitD XIII: Learning is happening

    Quote Originally Posted by Algeh View Post
    The scripts were published in book form (I've had a copy since the 1990s, but a brief look on Amazon indicates that it's still pretty available and not particularly expensive), and it looks like the radio series might be on Amazon Audible (I have also had a copy of that since the 1990s) as well as CDs and such (it was once available on cassette tapes and LPs as well).

    FWIW, I'm not sold on Haggunenon being a good fit at all based on the presentation in the radio show, but I'm not particularly familiar with the D&D version or what lore/fluff it may have accumulated in the hearts and minds of D&D players as it got further away from the original source material. If anyone wants me to check the episode or script for some specific piece of information, I could certainly do that and report back.
    Yes, please! That'd be great. Some of us a pretty well versed in the D&D Hagunnemon (which is one of a few different kinds of Proteans) and comparing the D&D version to the radio version might shed an insight or two.
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    Default Re: MitD XIII: Learning is happening

    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    [citation required]
    Bullhonkey!
    Also:
    https://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Protea...al_Description
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    Default Re: MitD XIII: Learning is happening

    I think Peelee meant an official 3.xed citation. Not a homebrew 5ed citation.
    Last edited by Kish; 2019-04-14 at 01:38 PM.
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    "The really unforgivable acts are committed by calm men in beautiful green silk rooms, who deal death wholesale, by the shipload, without lust, or anger, or desire, or any redeeming emotion to excuse them but cold fear of some pretended future. But the crimes they hope to prevent in the future are imaginary. The ones they commit in the present--they are real." --Aral Vorkosigan

    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    This, in a nutshell.
    Yes, exactly.

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