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  1. - Top - End - #181
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    SwashbucklerGuy

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    Default Re: What does the Crimson Mantle’s aging block do?

    Still, Redcloak has an analityc mind. He knows that Xykon will become a liability once the Ritual is completed. Not just a liability, but an enemy. He knows that he will need him destroyed as soon as he no longer needs him for the Plan. And he knows that he needs to destroy the Philactery in order to get rid of Xykon for good. Therefore, Redcloak has a pretty good reason to keep hold of the item.

    Of course, I doubt that Xykon isn't seeing it coming, and I doubt he will happily fulfill the Plan. That would make the OOTS irrelevant for the story, if the villiain is going to get himself destroyed by fulfilling his plan anyway. This comic doesn't looks like an Indiana Jones movie to me (even though the Heroes did indeed survive a nuke by hiding inside a fridge).
    Last edited by The Pilgrim; 2019-04-17 at 01:08 PM.

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    Default Re: What does the Crimson Mantle’s aging block do?

    Quote Originally Posted by The Pilgrim View Post
    Still, Redcloak has an analityc mind. He knows that Xykon will become a liability once the Ritual is completed. Not just a liability, but an enemy. He knows that he will need him destroyed as soon as he no longer needs him for the Plan. And he knows that he needs to destroy the Philactery in order to get rid of Xykon for good. Therefore, Redcloak has a pretty good reason to keep hold of the item.

    Of course, I doubt that Xykon isn't seeing it coming, and I doubt he will happily fulfill the Plan. That would make the OOTS irrelevant for the story, if the villiain is going to get himself destroyed by fulfilling his plan anyway. This comic doesn't looks like an Indiana Jones movie to me (even though the Heroes did indeed survive a nuke by hiding inside a fridge).
    In theory, surviving a nuke by hiding in a fridge is perfectly reasonable. A fridge is insulated, sealed, and older ones were large enough to hold someone and fairly heavy in construction. A blast that destroys the house will not necessarily destroy every item of the contents, fridge hiding is a pretty good way to maximize your odds of living.

    Now, being thrown around the way the fridge was in the movie would be blatantly fatal due to concussion; and this all ignores the difficulty of GETTING OUT once the blast is over given that it's a fifties refrigerator (see: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Refrigerator_death).

  3. - Top - End - #183
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    SwashbucklerGuy

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    Default Re: What does the Crimson Mantle’s aging block do?

    Looks like a job for the MythBusters.

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    Default Re: What does the Crimson Mantle’s aging block do?

    Quote Originally Posted by The Pilgrim View Post
    Looks like a job for the MythBusters.
    Or preferably a group that actually follows the scientific method.
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  5. - Top - End - #185
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    Default Re: What does the Crimson Mantle’s aging block do?

    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    Or preferably a group that actually follows the scientific method.


    Link

    Also, they did do repeated experiments, where feasible. They usually didn't show it because editing, but they did do it.

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    I would say that's the dumbest theory Grey Wolf's heard, but, let's be honest: It's Grey Wolf. They've probably heard dumber theories today. Point is, neat idea, but it's a real stretch.
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    Default Re: What does the Crimson Mantle’s aging block do?

    Quote Originally Posted by Grey_Wolf_c View Post


    Link

    Also, they did do repeated experiments, where feasible. They usually didn't show it because editing, but they did do it.

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    Experiments that seek to primarily achieve truth, not primarily achieve entertainment. It's fun to watch and all, but if you glue a bunch of mirrors to some wood and don't bother doing much math, you'll never be able to see if Archimedes could have been able to torch a fleet.

    I have nothing against Mythbusters getting people interested in science. It's a laudable goal, and they're right up there with Bill Nye and Beakman. But the first panel is accurate. After all, ideas tested by experiment was also the core of alchemy. Sorry, Randall, I ain't buying that.
    Last edited by Peelee; 2019-04-17 at 07:23 PM.
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  7. - Top - End - #187
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    Default Re: What does the Crimson Mantle’s aging block do?

    What would happen if RC already destroyed the phylactery? That way, he could be permanently reassured that Xykon is dead forever if the Plan succeeds.

    I don't think Xykon has any spells (yet) that'll make him 'reveal' the truth.

  8. - Top - End - #188
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    Default Re: What does the Crimson Mantle’s aging block do?

    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    Experiments that seek to primarily achieve truth, not primarily achieve entertainment. It's fun to watch and all, but if you glue a bunch of mirrors to some wood and don't bother doing much math, you'll never be able to see if Archimedes could have been able to torch a fleet.

    I have nothing against Mythbusters getting people interested in science. It's a laudable goal, and they're right up there with Bill Nye and Beakman. But the first panel is accurate. After all, ideas tested by experiment was also the core of alchemy. Sorry, Randall, I ain't buying that.
    I mean, if it required more precision than they could muster out of a group of volunteers, i'd say that definitively disproves the myth regardless of whether its technically possible to light a fire on something with polished... it was bronze, right?
    “Evil is evil. Lesser, greater, middling, it's all the same. Proportions are negotiated, boundaries blurred. I'm not a pious hermit, I haven't done only good in my life. But if I'm to choose between one evil and another, then I prefer not to choose at all.”

  9. - Top - End - #189
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    Default Re: What does the Crimson Mantle’s aging block do?

    Quote Originally Posted by Keltest View Post
    I mean, if it required more precision than they could muster out of a group of volunteers, i'd say that definitively disproves the myth regardless of whether its technically possible to light a fire on something with polished... it was bronze, right?
    Oh, I'm fairly sure he never did that, but slapping a few mirrors around isn't mythbusting. It's hardly even quality presentation.

    ETA: Also, Archimedes' mirror is not a hill I'm going to die on, it was just an example. They can be very accurate and in-depth, but they can also be fast and sloppy. The primary goal was entertainment, not accuracy.
    Last edited by Peelee; 2019-04-17 at 08:55 PM.
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  10. - Top - End - #190
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    Default Re: What does the Crimson Mantle’s aging block do?

    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    Oh, I'm fairly sure he never did that, but slapping a few mirrors around isn't mythbusting. It's hardly even quality presentation.
    Some myths simply have a very high bar to clear. Does it matter if the quality of mirrors needed could have existed if they could never have been focused to the degree needed in the first place? It only takes one impossibility to bust a myth.
    “Evil is evil. Lesser, greater, middling, it's all the same. Proportions are negotiated, boundaries blurred. I'm not a pious hermit, I haven't done only good in my life. But if I'm to choose between one evil and another, then I prefer not to choose at all.”

  11. - Top - End - #191
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    Default Re: What does the Crimson Mantle’s aging block do?

    Quote Originally Posted by Keltest View Post
    Some myths simply have a very high bar to clear. Does it matter if the quality of mirrors needed could have existed if they could never have been focused to the degree needed in the first place? It only takes one impossibility to bust a myth.
    Agreed, see edit.
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    Default Re: What does the Crimson Mantle’s aging block do?

    Quote Originally Posted by understatement View Post
    What would happen if RC already destroyed the phylactery? That way, he could be permanently reassured that Xykon is dead forever if the Plan succeeds.

    I don't think Xykon has any spells (yet) that'll make him 'reveal' the truth.
    I mean, the plan succeeding and Xykon being permanently gone aren't particularly interwoven. Xykon being gone is connected very much to Redcloak living in this hypothetical situation of it working, but it's totally possible that the Plan could work, and then Xykon immediately murders Redcloak for lying to him all these years. Doing so won't reverse the Dark One getting control over the Gate if it's already happened.

    Anyway, the point is basically moot, since I'm sure we'd actually see Redcloak destroying it. But as has already been discussed, destroying the phylactery doesn't help destroy Xykon in the present.
    I'd just like to point out that saying that something unsupported is the case unless someone else can prove that it is not is an utter failure of logic. - Kish

  13. - Top - End - #193
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    Default Re: What does the Crimson Mantle’s aging block do?

    Hm, okay, I'm just thinking of the impression that Xykon will only realize RC is lying when the ritual is complete, because instead of wielding a Snarl he'll be coming face-to-face with the TDO, who should be powerful enough to intervene. If not Redcloak can also reveal he has the phylactery, which will make X believe he can still retrieve it, but if RC already destroyed it then for himself at least it's a 100% of ensuring Xykon will be dead (somewhat like the shell game) but still allowing himself to remain potentially alive because Xykon needs to use him to find the phylactery, unbeknownst to him that it's already been destroyed. And in that time span the TDO probably could take care of Xykon easily enough.

    Not sure where the OOTS fits into this.

    I, uh, will check my brain cells later.

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    Default Re: What does the Crimson Mantle’s aging block do?

    Destroying the phylactery without Xykon's knowledge might be a sticking point if Xykon is able to "feel" the phylactery's destruction.

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    Default Re: What does the Crimson Mantle’s aging block do?

    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    Oh, I'm fairly sure he never did that, but slapping a few mirrors around isn't mythbusting. It's hardly even quality presentation.

    ETA: Also, Archimedes' mirror is not a hill I'm going to die on, it was just an example. They can be very accurate and in-depth, but they can also be fast and sloppy. The primary goal was entertainment, not accuracy.
    Haha, I liked Mythbusters, though I haven't watched it in a very long that. I do remember that episode, though, and I do remember it being very unsatisfying. I'll agree with you that the quality was rather variable, between episodes. It's also possible that some things were done but were just cut out at montage.

    I'd add, though, that a cheap and sloppy trial is not particularly entertaining. Doing a lousy job and failing to yield any result from it... not entertaining whatsoever.

    Quote Originally Posted by Keltest View Post
    I mean, if it required more precision than they could muster out of a group of volunteers, i'd say that definitively disproves the myth regardless of whether its technically possible to light a fire on something with polished... it was bronze, right?
    I don't agree at all. If the technique requires skill and/or training, there's absolutely no reason to believe that the story the myth hinges upon was not based on people with said skill and/or training.

    You need to find a way to make it work to prove that it's do-able, not find a way that doesn't work and then use that as an excuse to claim it isn't doable.

    Also, the original used glass-coated mirrors, I think? I /think/ the glass actually lessens the efficiency at infra-reds (and ultra-violets). Polished bronze could potentially be even more deadly, but I can't find any data on that.

    Quote Originally Posted by ijuinkun View Post
    Destroying the phylactery without Xykon's knowledge might be a sticking point if Xykon is able to "feel" the phylactery's destruction.
    Also runs the risk of Xykon dying in an epic trap in the Tomb, and then being stuck without the required arcane caster. Edit: Mind you, Xykon resurrecting anywhere else than his fortress would be bad news.
    Last edited by Goblin_Priest; 2019-04-18 at 07:43 AM.
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  16. - Top - End - #196
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    Default Re: What does the Crimson Mantle’s aging block do?

    Quote Originally Posted by Goblin_Priest View Post
    I don't agree at all. If the technique requires skill and/or training, there's absolutely no reason to believe that the story the myth hinges upon was not based on people with said skill and/or training.

    You need to find a way to make it work to prove that it's do-able, not find a way that doesn't work and then use that as an excuse to claim it isn't doable.

    Also, the original used glass-coated mirrors, I think? I /think/ the glass actually lessens the efficiency at infra-reds (and ultra-violets). Polished bronze could potentially be even more deadly, but I can't find any data on that.
    Admittedly its been a few years, but my recall is that it was found to be basically impossible to actually aim that many mirrors on a single point. There were so many reflections showing up on the ship that nobody could tell which one was theirs, compounded by the sun being in their eyes. It wasn't a question of training so much as logistics and circumstance. Could a group of professionals done better? Maybe a little, but a lot of the problems were of the "you cant just get better at it to make them go away" variety.

    Plus, and I think they mention this in the episode itself, what do you do on a cloudy day? Or if its morning and the enemy is sailing in from the west?
    “Evil is evil. Lesser, greater, middling, it's all the same. Proportions are negotiated, boundaries blurred. I'm not a pious hermit, I haven't done only good in my life. But if I'm to choose between one evil and another, then I prefer not to choose at all.”

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    Default Re: What does the Crimson Mantle’s aging block do?

    Quote Originally Posted by Keltest View Post
    Plus, and I think they mention this in the episode itself, what do you do on a cloudy day? Or if its morning and the enemy is sailing in from the west?
    What do you do if your gun is out of ammo? "people used to use guns" myth busted, I say!
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  18. - Top - End - #198
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    What do you do if your gun is out of ammo? "people used to use guns" myth busted, I say!
    Put more ammo in? I recognize that youre being tongue in cheek here, but theres a rather large difference between having to reload and the sun not being out, in that one is something a person could reasonably control.
    “Evil is evil. Lesser, greater, middling, it's all the same. Proportions are negotiated, boundaries blurred. I'm not a pious hermit, I haven't done only good in my life. But if I'm to choose between one evil and another, then I prefer not to choose at all.”

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    Default Re: What does the Crimson Mantle’s aging block do?

    Quote Originally Posted by Keltest View Post
    Put more ammo in? I recognize that youre being tongue in cheek here, but theres a rather large difference between having to reload and the sun not being out, in that one is something a person could reasonably control.
    Assume mirror weapon actually existed. Unless that was their only defense, the clouds and west bits are ridiculous, because the simple answer is "dont use it, go with a different tactic" for this battle." Also, the spirit was clearly "you have no more ammo," not "there's more lying right beside you."

    It's about as stupid as "if we use solar power, what about when the sun goes down or it gets cloudy?"
    Last edited by Peelee; 2019-04-18 at 08:44 AM.
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  20. - Top - End - #200
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    Default Re: What does the Crimson Mantle’s aging block do?

    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    Assume mirror weapon actually existed. Unless that was their only defense, the clouds and west bits are ridiculous, because the simple answer is "dont use it, go with a different tactic" for this battle." Also, the spirit was clearly "you have no more ammo," not "there's more lying right beside you."

    It's about as stupid as "if we use solar power, what about when the sun goes down or it gets cloudy?"
    I mean you say that, but from my understanding that's one of the major logistical hurdles in actually getting solar power to be effective. And if a weapon can be defeated by the extremely simple tactic of... just waiting until the afternoon before invading, its a terrible weapon.
    “Evil is evil. Lesser, greater, middling, it's all the same. Proportions are negotiated, boundaries blurred. I'm not a pious hermit, I haven't done only good in my life. But if I'm to choose between one evil and another, then I prefer not to choose at all.”

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    Default Re: What does the Crimson Mantle’s aging block do?

    Quote Originally Posted by Keltest View Post
    I mean you say that, but from my understanding that's one of the major logistical hurdles in actually getting solar power to be effective. And if a weapon can be defeated by the extremely simple tactic of... just waiting until the afternoon before invading, its a terrible weapon.
    A.) Energy storage, along with alternative power sources (wind, hydroelectric, etc), right off the top of my head.
    2.) That assumes the enemy knows about the weapon, and have exact control over their plans. Weather prediction was notoriously difficult back then, storms wiped out entire fleets on multiple occasions, etc.
    iii.) Even if they wait until circumstances are in their favor, if the city only has the one weapon, then they pretty much deserve to be conquered. If it ever existed at all, it would clearly be relegated to "if we ever get the chance, totally use it. But firm all strategies under the assumption we won't have that," because it's pretty easy to assume that military commanders wouldn't have the mentality of a pre-teen and think one weapon solves everything.

    Again, it's a patently ridiculous complaint that falls apart at the slightest inspection. But it was entertaining to hear.
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  22. - Top - End - #202
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    Default Re: What does the Crimson Mantle’s aging block do?

    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    A.) Energy storage, along with alternative power sources (wind, hydroelectric, etc), right off the top of my head.
    2.) That assumes the enemy knows about the weapon, and have exact control over their plans. Weather prediction was notoriously difficult back then, storms wiped out entire fleets on multiple occasions, etc.
    iii.) Even if they wait until circumstances are in their favor, if the city only has the one weapon, then they pretty much deserve to be conquered. If it ever existed at all, it would clearly be relegated to "if we ever get the chance, totally use it. But firm all strategies under the assumption we won't have that," because it's pretty easy to assume that military commanders wouldn't have the mentality of a pre-teen and think one weapon solves everything.

    Again, it's a patently ridiculous complaint that falls apart at the slightest inspection. But it was entertaining to hear.
    I feel the need to point out, again, that if there were so many problems and potential problems with deploying such a weapon, doesn't that make it, you know, a bad weapon that doesn't work well, or not work at all? Thus disproving the myth?
    “Evil is evil. Lesser, greater, middling, it's all the same. Proportions are negotiated, boundaries blurred. I'm not a pious hermit, I haven't done only good in my life. But if I'm to choose between one evil and another, then I prefer not to choose at all.”

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    Default Re: What does the Crimson Mantle’s aging block do?

    Quote Originally Posted by Keltest View Post
    Plus, and I think they mention this in the episode itself, what do you do on a cloudy day? Or if its morning and the enemy is sailing in from the west?
    You sacrifice twenty oxen and one hundred sheep to Helios, of course. And Syracuse has no water on its western side, as it is on the East coast of Sicily.
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    Default Re: What does the Crimson Mantle’s aging block do?

    Quote Originally Posted by Keltest View Post
    Admittedly its been a few years, but my recall is that it was found to be basically impossible to actually aim that many mirrors on a single point. There were so many reflections showing up on the ship that nobody could tell which one was theirs, compounded by the sun being in their eyes. It wasn't a question of training so much as logistics and circumstance. Could a group of professionals done better? Maybe a little, but a lot of the problems were of the "you cant just get better at it to make them go away" variety.

    Plus, and I think they mention this in the episode itself, what do you do on a cloudy day? Or if its morning and the enemy is sailing in from the west?
    I was curious, I re-watched the "return" episode.

    To be clear, I didn't mean to say that I thought it was absolutely possible, but merely that the original episode on it left me wanting, and it did not feel like they had done it well enough to positively bust it.

    Given that the story about mirrors only come up hundreds of years after the battle, there's very good reason to be skeptic about it every happening. You'd think it'd have been worth mention in earlier accounts.

    There's also a large gap between "they never used reflective surfaces as weapons" and "they made a death ray capable of setting dozens of ships ablaze from afar". For example, it is quite possible that they both weaponized reflection, AND set the ships ablaze, WITHOUT setting the ships ablaze from reflection. I remember as a kid that we'd like to take reflective surfaces, and aim for our class-mates' faces, basically blinding them. Now imagine dozens, or hundreds (or more?) people doing that, reflecting the sun's light at enemy ships. It might not be precise enough to set it on fire, but it will most probably make their aiming extremely difficult. The increased heat, without being deadly, could also tire and exhaust them. But, more importantly, the light in the face is both painful and makes aiming very hard.

    So with that in mind, and considering every soldier is probably going to have shields anyways, using the sun as a weapon in order to be able to attack them with flaming weapons with very limited retaliation... could be a very cheap and devastating technique.

    And it could easily explain how the myth came to be, hundreds of years later.
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    Default Re: What does the Crimson Mantle’s aging block do?

    Quote Originally Posted by Keltest View Post
    I feel the need to point out, again, that if there were so many problems and potential problems with deploying such a weapon, doesn't that make it, you know, a bad weapon that doesn't work well, or not work at all? Thus disproving the myth?
    A.) pointing out deficiencies does nothing to disprove that it existed.
    2.) "it won't work in most scenarios, but whenever it does its an instant win button" sounds like something worth investing in. Especially if he built the proof of concept independently of the military.

    The best way to disprove the myth? Actually try to recreate it as closely as possible. If they can't do that under the budget and within the time constraints required for the show, we'll, it's not scientific and more entertainment, isn't it? That's certainly convenient for me, since that's my entire argument to begin with.
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    Default Re: What does the Crimson Mantle’s aging block do?

    Quote Originally Posted by Goblin_Priest View Post
    I was curious, I re-watched the "return" episode.

    To be clear, I didn't mean to say that I thought it was absolutely possible, but merely that the original episode on it left me wanting, and it did not feel like they had done it well enough to positively bust it.

    Given that the story about mirrors only come up hundreds of years after the battle, there's very good reason to be skeptic about it every happening. You'd think it'd have been worth mention in earlier accounts.

    There's also a large gap between "they never used reflective surfaces as weapons" and "they made a death ray capable of setting dozens of ships ablaze from afar". For example, it is quite possible that they both weaponized reflection, AND set the ships ablaze, WITHOUT setting the ships ablaze from reflection. I remember as a kid that we'd like to take reflective surfaces, and aim for our class-mates' faces, basically blinding them. Now imagine dozens, or hundreds (or more?) people doing that, reflecting the sun's light at enemy ships. It might not be precise enough to set it on fire, but it will most probably make their aiming extremely difficult. The increased heat, without being deadly, could also tire and exhaust them. But, more importantly, the light in the face is both painful and makes aiming very hard.

    So with that in mind, and considering every soldier is probably going to have shields anyways, using the sun as a weapon in order to be able to attack them with flaming weapons with very limited retaliation... could be a very cheap and devastating technique.

    And it could easily explain how the myth came to be, hundreds of years later.
    Sure, although theres still the rather large problem of having the sun in the faces of your soldiers while the fighting is going on. Im not sure that blinding both armies is especially worth it unless you have, like, rocks or something the enemy will crash their ships on.

    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    A.) pointing out deficiencies does nothing to disprove that it existed.
    2.) "it won't work in most scenarios, but whenever it does its an instant win button" sounds like something worth investing in. Especially if he built the proof of concept independently of the military.

    The best way to disprove the myth? Actually try to recreate it as closely as possible. If they can't do that under the budget and within the time constraints required for the show, we'll, it's not scientific and more entertainment, isn't it? That's certainly convenient for me, since that's my entire argument to begin with.
    The whole point is that the myth is already logically tenuous and logistically unsound even before actually trying to recreate it. It didn't have anything to do with budget or time constraints because it just didn't work the way the myth needed it to. Theres no amount of money and time you can throw at a problem like people not being able to see where theyre aiming to make it go away.
    “Evil is evil. Lesser, greater, middling, it's all the same. Proportions are negotiated, boundaries blurred. I'm not a pious hermit, I haven't done only good in my life. But if I'm to choose between one evil and another, then I prefer not to choose at all.”

  27. - Top - End - #207
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    Default Re: What does the Crimson Mantle’s aging block do?

    Quote Originally Posted by Fyraltari View Post
    You sacrifice twenty oxen and one hundred sheep to Helios, of course.
    No, no, no. You consult the sacred chickens. And when they don't eat of the grain (indicating it is a bad day), you wonder if they are thirsty instead and throw them overboard.

    Not a word of that is made up (by me, at least).

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    Last edited by Grey_Wolf_c; 2019-04-18 at 09:29 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by woweedd View Post
    I would say that's the dumbest theory Grey Wolf's heard, but, let's be honest: It's Grey Wolf. They've probably heard dumber theories today. Point is, neat idea, but it's a real stretch.
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  28. - Top - End - #208
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    Default Re: What does the Crimson Mantle’s aging block do?

    Joking aside, and unless, I am mistaken, the story takes place during a siege, so once Archimedes was done they could just wait for the right meteorological conditions. Not that I think it actually happened though. Then again, if you managed to blind the ships’ pilotes you could easily create enough chaos that some ships will ram each other.
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  29. - Top - End - #209
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    Default Re: What does the Crimson Mantle’s aging block do?

    Quote Originally Posted by Fyraltari View Post
    Joking aside, and unless, I am mistaken, the story takes place during a siege, so once Archimedes was done they could just wait for the right meteorological conditions. Not that I think it actually happened though. Then again, if you managed to blind the ships’ pilotes you could easily create enough chaos that some ships will ram each other.
    Sure, but that isn't the myth. The myth is that he could set ships on fire with those things. Which I agree with Keltest was sufficiently disproved by the Mythbusters. And even if it was, I think you are seriously underestimating the ability of people to shield their eyes from directed beams of light.

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    There is a world of imagination
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    And myth and legend thrive
    Quote Originally Posted by woweedd View Post
    I would say that's the dumbest theory Grey Wolf's heard, but, let's be honest: It's Grey Wolf. They've probably heard dumber theories today. Point is, neat idea, but it's a real stretch.
    Ceterum autem censeo Hilgya malefica est

  30. - Top - End - #210
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    Default Re: What does the Crimson Mantle’s aging block do?

    Quote Originally Posted by Grey_Wolf_c View Post
    Sure, but that isn't the myth. The myth is that he could set ships on fire with those things. Which I agree with Keltest was sufficiently disproved by the Mythbusters.

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    Mythbusters gave reason to doubt it. Given that the myth arise a suvnificant amount of time after the supposed event, with no firsthand accounts or mentions in any of the writings at the time, I'd say the myth was sufficiently disproven well before the Mythbusters, if you want to put the threshold for "proving" at the level of what they did.
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