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  1. - Top - End - #211
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    Default Re: What does the Crimson Mantle’s aging block do?

    Quote Originally Posted by Grey_Wolf_c View Post
    Sure, but that isn't the myth. The myth is that he could set ships on fire with those things. Which I agree with Keltest was sufficiently disproved by the Mythbusters. And even if it was, I think you are seriously underestimating the ability of people to shield their eyes from directed beams of light.

    Grey Wolf
    The objection I was adressing was ‘‘but that wouldn’t work on rainy days or at the wrong time of day’’ which, as I said isn’t relevant to the story, as it is supposed to be a weapon made for a specific set of circumstances. I don’t know enough about mirrors and wood’s temperature of spontaneous combustion to know wether that is a feasible reason thing (but my guess is no) and, since all I know about Mythbusters is the basic premise of the show, I have no ground to judge its scientific merits on and do not care to.

    As to your own point, you need both hands to pilot a ship and can’t move from your spot.
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    Default Re: What does the Crimson Mantle’s aging block do?

    Quote Originally Posted by Fyraltari View Post
    The objection I was adressing was ‘‘but that wouldn’t work on rainy days or at the wrong time of day’’ which, as I said isn’t relevant to the story, as it is supposed to be a weapon made for a specific set of circumstances. I don’t know enough about mirrors and wood’s temperature of spontaneous combustion to know wether that is a feasible reason thing (but my guess is no)
    Devils advocate: Or whatever cloth they used for the sails. Fire likes to go up, but it also likes fuel, I'd assume.
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  3. - Top - End - #213
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    Default Re: What does the Crimson Mantle’s aging block do?

    Quote Originally Posted by Fyraltari View Post
    As to your own point, you need both hands to pilot a ship and can’t move from your spot.
    Not during a siege on a sunny day, you don't. The ships aren't going to be in rough waters and going at max sail. Besides, Roman ships used, as far as I know, a rudder - ship wheels came much later. The guy giving the orders only had a stick to point out where to go. The guys pushing and pulling on the rudder can do that with their eyes closed.

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    Quote Originally Posted by woweedd View Post
    I would say that's the dumbest theory Grey Wolf's heard, but, let's be honest: It's Grey Wolf. They've probably heard dumber theories today. Point is, neat idea, but it's a real stretch.
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    Default Re: What does the Crimson Mantle’s aging block do?

    Quote Originally Posted by Grey_Wolf_c View Post
    Not during a siege on a sunny day, you don't. The ships aren't going to be in rough waters and going at max sail. Besides, Roman ships used, as far as I know, a rudder - ship wheels came much later. The guy giving the orders only had a stick to point out where to go. The guys pushing and pulling on the rudder can do that with their eyes closed.

    Grey Wolf
    Which is why the Romans never invaded the Alpine states with their naval forces; the natives would have just built great alphorns to drown out commands, and the ships would steer into each other!

    If you object to taking landlocked states with naval forces for any other reason, then you are clearly not a naval commander.
    Last edited by Peelee; 2019-04-18 at 09:53 AM.
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    Default Re: What does the Crimson Mantle’s aging block do?

    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    Which is why the Romans never invaded the Alpine states with their naval forces; the natives would have just built great alphorns to drown out commands, and the ships would steer into each other!
    You kid, but according to Roman mythology, that's exactly what happened to the Sybarites, sort of.

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    Quote Originally Posted by woweedd View Post
    I would say that's the dumbest theory Grey Wolf's heard, but, let's be honest: It's Grey Wolf. They've probably heard dumber theories today. Point is, neat idea, but it's a real stretch.
    Ceterum autem censeo Hilgya malefica est

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    Default Re: What does the Crimson Mantle’s aging block do?

    Quote Originally Posted by Grey_Wolf_c View Post
    You kid, but according to Roman mythology, that's exactly what happened to the Sybarites, sort of.

    Grey Wolf
    So you're saying I'm not a modern American idiot, but rather an ancient Roman genius?

    ...ill take it!
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    Default Re: What does the Crimson Mantle’s aging block do?

    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    So you're saying I'm not a modern American idiot, but rather an ancient Roman genius?

    ...ill take it!
    An ancient Krotonite genius taking advantage of the idiocy of others. Rome wasn't involved (although the first time I heard of this, it was supposed to have been the Roman army playing loud brass music to drown out the flutes. Can't find a reference to that version, though. Given it's likely neither actually happened, I think I like the Roman version better, so it's a bit of a pity it doesn't get referenced as an alternative bit of myth).

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    Quote Originally Posted by woweedd View Post
    I would say that's the dumbest theory Grey Wolf's heard, but, let's be honest: It's Grey Wolf. They've probably heard dumber theories today. Point is, neat idea, but it's a real stretch.
    Ceterum autem censeo Hilgya malefica est

  8. - Top - End - #218
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    Default Re: What does the Crimson Mantle’s aging block do?

    Quote Originally Posted by Grey_Wolf_c View Post
    Not during a siege on a sunny day, you don't. The ships aren't going to be in rough waters and going at max sail. Besides, Roman ships used, as far as I know, a rudder - ship wheels came much later. The guy giving the orders only had a stick to point out where to go. The guys pushing and pulling on the rudder can do that with their eyes closed.

    Grey Wolf
    I stand corrected.
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  9. - Top - End - #219
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    Default Re: What does the Crimson Mantle’s aging block do?

    Quote Originally Posted by Keltest View Post
    Sure, although theres still the rather large problem of having the sun in the faces of your soldiers while the fighting is going on. Im not sure that blinding both armies is especially worth it unless you have, like, rocks or something the enemy will crash their ships on.



    The whole point is that the myth is already logically tenuous and logistically unsound even before actually trying to recreate it. It didn't have anything to do with budget or time constraints because it just didn't work the way the myth needed it to. Theres no amount of money and time you can throw at a problem like people not being able to see where theyre aiming to make it go away.
    Well, no, there's no symmetry in the sun's effect. If the sun is used late enough in the morning, far enough from the horizon, you can easily shield your eyes from it while aiming at an enemy on the horizon line (i.e. anybody at the same height you are, or below). However, if people at ground level redirect sunlight towards other people at ground level... the blinding effect is one-sided. You can shield your eyes from the sun, when it is high, to aim at a target at ground level. But if the light coming to your face is reflected from ground level, than you cannot both avert your eyes from the ground-level reflection and target it. So the defenders could have half their men blinding the attacking ships, and the other half manning various weapons and siege engines to destroy the incoming fleet. If the captains can't see well, ships that are ablaze could accidentally ram into friendly ships, spreading the fire.

    Also, in Mythbusters, they successfully used mirrors to light ablaze a ship in the bay. Then they went on and said "yea, we did it, but, uhm, busted anyways". While I'll agree with them that it likely hadn't been done, it's another thing to go claim it couldn't have been done.

    And while their setup wasn't incredibly efficient, it did prove it was possible, and thus could probably be optimized. And thus, potentially, weaponized. It's also possible that the ships contained some highly-flammable materials that could be targeted. Again, the historical sources on this myth are terrible, and that alone is reason enough to dismiss the myth, but if you are going to take the trouble of actually testing it out in the field, then you are trying to verify if it is technically possible. And their experiment did just that, they proved that they could use reflection to set a ship on fire.
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    Default Re: What does the Crimson Mantle’s aging block do?

    About the plausability of that Archimedes' stunt...

    1) Syracuse is on the East coast of Sicily. So any invading fleet will come sailing from the East.

    2) No one would sail on a rainy day in ancient times. Moreso, a place with a mediterranian climate has very few cloudy or rainy days at all during the year. It tends to be either sunny or rainy. Just overcast with no rain, doesn't happens much.

    3) Anyone going to start a battle, begins the attack in the morning, right at dawn. And in the particular case of the enemy being to your west, you have even more incentive to start your attack right at dawn, as they will have the sun on their eyes.

    So, the chances that Archimedes got the right time and enemy positioning to pull off the stunt with the mirrors are... pretty high, actually.

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    Default Re: What does the Crimson Mantle’s aging block do?

    Quote Originally Posted by understatement View Post
    Hm, okay, I'm just thinking of the impression that Xykon will only realize RC is lying when the ritual is complete, because instead of wielding a Snarl he'll be coming face-to-face with the TDO, who should be powerful enough to intervene. If not Redcloak can also reveal he has the phylactery, which will make X believe he can still retrieve it, but if RC already destroyed it then for himself at least it's a 100% of ensuring Xykon will be dead (somewhat like the shell game) but still allowing himself to remain potentially alive because Xykon needs to use him to find the phylactery, unbeknownst to him that it's already been destroyed. And in that time span the TDO probably could take care of Xykon easily enough.

    Not sure where the OOTS fits into this.

    I, uh, will check my brain cells later.
    I don't get the impression that Redcloak really knows what will happen when the ritual is complete, but he knows that Xykon won't have control of the snarl. He seems to believe the two possibilities are be permanently destroyed, including his soul, or else have an angry epic lich sorcerer on his hands.

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    Default Re: What does the Crimson Mantle’s aging block do?

    Quote Originally Posted by CriticalFailure View Post
    I don't get the impression that Redcloak really knows what will happen when the ritual is complete
    I do.
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    Default Re: What does the Crimson Mantle’s aging block do?

    Quote Originally Posted by CriticalFailure View Post
    He seems to believe the two possibilities are be permanently destroyed, including his soul, or else have an angry epic lich sorcerer on his hands.
    Aside from what Peelee said, I don't know where you're getting this.

    In the conscious parts of his brain, that insist he'll still finish the Plan and prove it all worth it, I'm sure he's thinking of something more along the lines of "and the Dark One will deal with Xykon, and I can True Resurrect my brother and graciously accept his apology..."
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    "The really unforgivable acts are committed by calm men in beautiful green silk rooms, who deal death wholesale, by the shipload, without lust, or anger, or desire, or any redeeming emotion to excuse them but cold fear of some pretended future. But the crimes they hope to prevent in the future are imaginary. The ones they commit in the present--they are real." --Aral Vorkosigan

    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    This, in a nutshell.
    Yes, exactly.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kish View Post
    Aside from what Peelee said, I don't know where you're getting this.

    In the conscious parts of his brain, that insist he'll still finish the Plan and prove it all worth it, I'm sure he's thinking of something more along the lines of "and the Dark One will deal with Xykon, and I can True Resurrect my brother and graciously accept his apology..."
    I'm honestly not sure Redcloak is considering his survival after the ritual is complete. Unless he accepts that he is in fact the self-centered monster he doesn't want to see himself as, and moves forward to change that....Actually completing the Gate ritual is the only thing that will make all the sacrifices he's made (with other goblins' lives) "worth it"; surviving the aftermath is optional. Failing that, or perhaps even with that, having his soul expunged by the Snarl saves him from an eternity of guilt.

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    Default Re: What does the Crimson Mantle’s aging block do?

    Redcloak has to preemptively finish off Xykon so that even if he's killed, X doesn't have his big safety net anymore. There's no advantage in still preserving the phylactery.

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    Default Re: What does the Crimson Mantle’s aging block do?

    Quote Originally Posted by understatement View Post
    Redcloak has to preemptively finish off Xykon so that even if he's killed, X doesn't have his big safety net anymore. There's no advantage in still preserving the phylactery.
    And yet he still didn't immediately destroy the real one, even after getting the fake one and making sure that Xykon wouldn't be able to tell the difference.

    So clearly Redcloak sees some value in keeping it around for now, even if he does probably ultimately plan on destroying it.
    Last edited by Rrmcklin; 2019-04-18 at 08:48 PM.
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    Default Re: What does the Crimson Mantle’s aging block do?

    Quote Originally Posted by Rrmcklin View Post
    And yet he still didn't immediately destroy the real one, even after getting the fake one and making sure that Xykon wouldn't be able to tell the difference.

    So clearly Redcloak sees some value in keeping it around for now, even if he does probably ultimately plan on destroying it.
    I don't believe that the Monster Manual says anything about whether a lich knows when their phylactery is destroyed, so presumably Redcloak doesn't know either. He may not be willing to risk it until they actually commence the ritual.
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    Default Re: What does the Crimson Mantle’s aging block do?

    It's possible he wasn't able to destroy the phylactery right away, depending on what protection spells are on it. I assume most of them he cast himself, but if Xykon cast a few, it might take a while to dispel them all. Whether his actual intent is to destroy it is another matter.

    If Redcloak believes the Dark One can simply smite Xykon after the ritual is done, he hasn't specifically mentioned it. He said Xykon wouldn't be able to challenge the Dark One or undo what had been done, but didn't mention anything about the Dark One killing him afterward.

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    Right-Eye: Anyway, what will Xykon do when he discovers that it doesn't work the way he thinks it does?

    Redcloak: It won't matter. Once the rituals are completed, the Dark One himself will control the ability to shift the Snarl's rift. Xykon is strong, but not strong enough to challenge our god. Besides, we can give him a cushy retirement in the new goblin nation.
    So Xykon explicitly lived in the version Redcloak first told, and his initial plan was to buy off his discontent with a "cushy retirement" -- not just have the Dark One clean up the mess.
    Last edited by B. Dandelion; 2019-04-18 at 09:52 PM.

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    Default Re: What does the Crimson Mantle’s aging block do?

    Quote Originally Posted by B. Dandelion View Post
    It's possible he wasn't able to destroy the phylactery right away, depending on what protection spells are on it. I assume most of them he cast himself, but if Xykon cast a few, it might take a while to dispel them all. Whether his actual intent is to destroy it is another matter.

    If Redcloak believes the Dark One can simply smite Xykon after the ritual is done, he hasn't specifically mentioned it. He said Xykon wouldn't be able to challenge the Dark One or undo what had been done, but didn't mention anything about the Dark One killing him afterward.

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    So Xykon explicitly lived in the version Redcloak first told, and his initial plan was to buy off his discontent with a "cushy retirement" -- not just have the Dark One clean up the mess.
    I was going to say that the gods can't just smite mortals they don't like because of all of their agreements, but then I realized that the Dark One specifically isn't party to most (all?) of the things that bind all the other gods into their tense "harmony".
    I'd just like to point out that saying that something unsupported is the case unless someone else can prove that it is not is an utter failure of logic. - Kish

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    Default Re: What does the Crimson Mantle’s aging block do?

    Quote Originally Posted by Rrmcklin View Post
    I was going to say that the gods can't just smite mortals they don't like because of all of their agreements, but then I realized that the Dark One specifically isn't party to most (all?) of the things that bind all the other gods into their tense "harmony".
    True. The Plan also is to give the Dark One greater leverage over the others, so it's not like him winding up with the sole discretion to smite whomever he likes on the prime material plane is out of the question even if he actually were a party to their agreements before. So it's not implausible for Redcloak to believe that the Dark One could get rid Xykon afterward. Just that he hasn't said anything specific.

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    Default Re: What does the Crimson Mantle’s aging block do?

    Quote Originally Posted by B. Dandelion View Post
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    So Xykon explicitly lived in the version Redcloak first told, and his initial plan was to buy off his discontent with a "cushy retirement" -- not just have the Dark One clean up the mess.
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    That was when proto-Redcloak and his brother both thought of Xykon as an ally, and his brother was pissed off that proto-Redcloak had lied at all to the entity Redcloak's brother would one day sacrifice his life trying to destroy. I think we can take as a given that Redcloak does not now want Xykon to have a cushy retirement--though it never spells out what Redcloak's vision of the ideal ending is for himself or Xykon now.
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    "The really unforgivable acts are committed by calm men in beautiful green silk rooms, who deal death wholesale, by the shipload, without lust, or anger, or desire, or any redeeming emotion to excuse them but cold fear of some pretended future. But the crimes they hope to prevent in the future are imaginary. The ones they commit in the present--they are real." --Aral Vorkosigan

    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    This, in a nutshell.
    Yes, exactly.

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    Default Re: What does the Crimson Mantle’s aging block do?

    I mean, hiding the real phylactery is clearly a hostile move meant to set him up for dealing with Xykon down the road, and SOD implies

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    That Redcloak believes that he and Xykon may be destroyed during the ritual.


    So I think it's fair to say we know that he considers both those a possibility. I'm sure he'd like it if they didn't get snarled and TDO smote Xykon before he had time to get really mad about the betrayal.

    I keep accidentally trying to use LaTex syntax for formatting in comments rip

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    Default Re: What does the Crimson Mantle’s aging block do?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kish View Post
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    That was when proto-Redcloak and his brother both thought of Xykon as an ally, and his brother was pissed off that proto-Redcloak had lied at all to the entity Redcloak's brother would one day sacrifice his life trying to destroy. I think we can take as a given that Redcloak does not now want Xykon to have a cushy retirement--though it never spells out what Redcloak's vision of the ideal ending is for himself or Xykon now.
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    Was Right-Eye pissed off on Xykon's behalf, or worried on their own? He'd conceded that Xykon didn't seem the type to risk his own life on the behalf of goblinkind. It would be reasonable for him to worry whether Xykon wouldn't actually retaliate against them, and nothing that Redcloak says about the Dark One specifies anything about protection for them personally. "It won't matter" because the Dark One retains control over the rifts no matter what Xykon does, and because Redcloak makes it plain he considers the Dark One's victory priority #1, with the lives of all other goblins coming in a very distant second at best. The cushy retirement angle may have been his obviously very naďve idea of what could appease Xykon. He might have cared to see his ally actually rewarded as well.

    He knows better now, and doesn't wish Xykon well, but that might just mean he was expecting to get killed afterward. Still a win for him because it's a win for the Dark One.
    Last edited by B. Dandelion; 2019-04-19 at 02:52 AM.

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    Default Re: What does the Crimson Mantle’s aging block do?

    Quote Originally Posted by understatement View Post
    Redcloak has to preemptively finish off Xykon so that even if he's killed, X doesn't have his big safety net anymore. There's no advantage in still preserving the phylactery.
    There is. Redcloak doesn't wants Xykon destroyed before the Plan comes to fruition. An in the event that Xykon is destroyed before the completion of the Plan, the Phylactery allows the Lich to be rebuilt.
    Last edited by The Pilgrim; 2019-04-19 at 07:09 AM.

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    Default Re: What does the Crimson Mantle’s aging block do?

    Quote Originally Posted by The Pilgrim View Post
    My rationalization of the Rules is that if the Phylactery is destroyed, the soul/life force/life essence (all three terms are used in different versions of the Rules) returns to the Lich. But that is just my rationalization, the rules never state what happens with whatever the phylactery holds according to the rules, if the item is destroyed.

    But, all in all, I think we can agree on something:
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    Redcloak's plan on keeping control over Xykon by holding the Phylactery never made much sense.
    Not sure if you're actually saying that the rules don't say what happens to a lich whose phylactery is destroyed, but to those (possibly including you) who do think so...

    A lich whose phylactery is destroyed suffers no harm, but cannot construct a new one.
    Libris Mortis p.151.
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    Default Re: What does the Crimson Mantle’s aging block do?

    Quote Originally Posted by magic9mushroom View Post
    Not sure if you're actually saying that the rules don't say what happens to a lich whose phylactery is destroyed, but to those (possibly including you) who do think so...



    Libris Mortis p.151.
    Which, while useful, unfortunately doesn't answer the question of, "Would Xykon know if his phylactery were destroyed?" Not suffering harm from its destruction doesn't mean he won't know if its destroyed.

    Otherwise, sure, drop it into Mt. Doom or whatever. (I wonder if the Gnomes' Municipal Waste Disposal firepit could do it, if a bunch of the protective aberrations were dispelled off the phylactery beforehand?)

    Have we ever determined just how powerful the arcane caster has to be to cast The Ritual? I know RedCloak tried to get Xykon/Jirix to think that RedCloak was thinking Tsukiko might have tried it, but could she? Could V do it?

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    Default Re: What does the Crimson Mantle’s aging block do?

    Quote Originally Posted by magic9mushroom View Post
    Not sure if you're actually saying that the rules don't say what happens to a lich whose phylactery is destroyed, but to those (possibly including you) who do think so...



    Libris Mortis p.151.
    "Would Xykon know if his phylactery is destroyed"? The rules don't say so. But... would Redcloak know all the rules? That sounds like it'd be a pretty high knowledge DC. It's sensible to simply not want to take the risk.
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    The scouring of the Shire never happened. That's right. After reading books I, II, and III, I stopped reading when the One Ring was thrown into Mount Doom. The story ends there. Nothing worthwhile happened afterwards. Middle-Earth was saved.

  28. - Top - End - #238
    Orc in the Playground
     
    GreataxeFighterGirl

    Join Date
    Jan 2019
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    Female

    Default Re: What does the Crimson Mantle’s aging block do?

    Quote Originally Posted by The Pilgrim View Post
    There is. Redcloak doesn't wants Xykon destroyed before the Plan comes to fruition. An in the event that Xykon is destroyed before the completion of the Plan, the Phylactery allows the Lich to be rebuilt.
    If Xykon is destroyed before the Plan is completed, he's not going to respawn in the Astral Fortress -- and he'll instantly know that Redcloak has betrayed him. Once Xykon realizes that, Redcloak has to get rid of him ASAP.

    Xykon's not going to get destroyed by whatever's in the Tomb so easily. That's why Redcloak is right next to him; he can just spam Inflict Wounds to keep him alive.

  29. - Top - End - #239
    Orc in the Playground
     
    WolfInSheepsClothing

    Join Date
    Dec 2018

    Default Re: What does the Crimson Mantle’s aging block do?

    Yeah the thing I was most curious about is what Redcloak plans to do if Xykon is destroyed before they cast the ritual. They did almost get taken out by the defenses at Soon's gate.

  30. - Top - End - #240
    Titan in the Playground
     
    Peelee's Avatar

    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Location
    Birmingham, AL
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    Default Re: What does the Crimson Mantle’s aging block do?

    Quote Originally Posted by CriticalFailure View Post
    Yeah the thing I was most curious about is what Redcloak plans to do if Xykon is destroyed before they cast the ritual.
    Spoiler: A rich, detailed, exhaustive exploration of what Redloak's plans if Xykon is destroyed before the ritual.
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    Find another wizard.
    Cuthalion's avatars rock. Like this very fine dragon he made me.

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