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  1. - Top - End - #31
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    WolfInSheepsClothing

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    Default Re: What does the Crimson Mantle’s aging block do?

    I mean I think he’s grown and changed in various ways some good some not (does becoming more emotionally dysfunctional count as maturing)

    I didnt get the impression he was doing a ton of normal socializing in Gobbotopia though; he seemed to mostly be acting in his capacity as supreme leader, very busy trying to learn about the gates while setting up a new nation. Jirix was the only one he seemed friendly with.

  2. - Top - End - #32
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    Default Re: What does the Crimson Mantle’s aging block do?

    Quote Originally Posted by CriticalFailure View Post
    I mean I think he’s grown and changed in various ways some good some not (does becoming more emotionally dysfunctional count as maturing)
    It counts as having grown out of your teenage mindset, at the very least.
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  3. - Top - End - #33
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    Default Re: What does the Crimson Mantle’s aging block do?

    Personally I don't think Right-Eye was meant to be right in a 100% literal sense, just that he was speaking a deeper truth about Redcloak. But this is all very subjective.
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  4. - Top - End - #34
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    WolfInSheepsClothing

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    Default Re: What does the Crimson Mantle’s aging block do?

    Quote Originally Posted by hrožila View Post
    Personally I don't think Right-Eye was meant to be right in a 100% literal sense, just that he was speaking a deeper truth about Redcloak. But this is all very subjective.
    Like he’s matured in some ways but still shaped his entire life around The Plan?

  5. - Top - End - #35
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    Default Re: What does the Crimson Mantle’s aging block do?

    As long as he has the Cloak, he (believes) must carry out the Plan. And since he learned about the Plan on such a fateful day -- shaped by revenge and violence and whatnot - he thinks that type of vengeance is the most appropriate to carry out his scheme.

    In fact, he and
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    Right-eye go through the exact same events -- up until the day the latter went off and had a family, and he chose to stay with Xykon.


    I don't think I'd label him as a teenager either. The dude that raised Gobbotopia, flattened the Resistance, and still holds onto betraying Xykon eventually has definitely 'matured' from the day he
    Spoiler
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    disintegrated his brother
    . I'd say he "matured" in a more Lawful Evil sense.

    Also, I don't even know what I just typed.

  6. - Top - End - #36
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    Default Re: What does the Crimson Mantle’s aging block do?

    I agree with the sentiment that the Crimson Mantle isn't somehow stunting Redcloak's emotional growth, and would actually think it would hurt the character and make him much less interesting if that were the case.

    If that's what Peelee is saying, I'm with them. I think people might be taking Right-Eye calling him out much more literally than it was actually intended, people say generic "you're stuck as that same angry teenager" lines to people like Redcloak all the time.
    Last edited by Rrmcklin; 2019-04-02 at 07:53 PM.

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    Default Re: What does the Crimson Mantle’s aging block do?

    Quote Originally Posted by Rrmcklin View Post
    I agree with the sentiment that the Crimson Mantle isn't somehow stunting Redcloak's emotional growth, and would actually think it would hurt the character and make him much less interesting if that were the case.

    If that's what Peelee is saying, I'm with them.
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  8. - Top - End - #38
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    Default Re: What does the Crimson Mantle’s aging block do?

    I feel like slowed growth is better than halting. Like, if you are 20 and wear it, you may have hundreds of years before you so much as get a gray hair, and things like arthritis that aren't already present at the time of donning the mantle will probably never happen. However, if you wear it at 13, it may take a decade or two to have the natural growth finish bringing you to 20, at which point your natural growth will slow and become virtually dormant. Mentally that can have some crazy effects, but the mind develops differently from the body as events, not physical growth, cause development more than anything else. Mental development may be slowed or altered, but after a while I see little reason for it to be seriously affected.

    If Redcloak were to take off the mantle for a week, would the aging come back and affect him or something?
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  9. - Top - End - #39
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    Default Re: What does the Crimson Mantle’s aging block do?

    I mean...I'd argue that, in the OOTS verse, the immortal soul is something that verifiably exists, so the brain chemistry probably doesn't matter as much as you might think. And, yes, I know destroying the brian still kills you, and Elan suffered brain damage as a kid, but...OK, think of it this way: The soul is a CD, and the brain is the computer that scans and displays it. If you damage the computer, the disk may still be functional, but it's not going to display correctly because it's running on a damaged system.
    Last edited by woweedd; 2019-04-02 at 10:38 PM.

  10. - Top - End - #40
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    WolfInSheepsClothing

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    Default Re: What does the Crimson Mantle’s aging block do?

    I definitely agree the Mantle doesn’t make his choices any less his own or his responsibility. Even if there’s no physical effect on how he matured mentally I think it’s fair to say being physically frozen in time as a teen has deterred him from having to mature like RE said.

  11. - Top - End - #41
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    Default Re: What does the Crimson Mantle’s aging block do?

    Quote Originally Posted by Grey_Wolf_c View Post
    No, I think it is a combination of both. Or rather, that that is what SoD is about, partially, and it sort of matches what this book is also about: you can't live in your worst day forever, because, paradoxically, not moving on warps you. RC is stuck on the worst day of his life, because he can't grow out of it, in part because the cloak keeps him a teen, which isn't exactly the most stable of mental configurations.

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    Wait, the cloak made him a VAMPIRE!?
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    Default Re: What does the Crimson Mantle’s aging block do?

    Quote Originally Posted by Goblin_Priest View Post
    Wait, the cloak made him a VAMPIRE!?
    A monster who betrays and murders his friends and family in order to fulfill the needs of what is allowing him to live forever and hangs around with a bunch of undead?
    Whether loved or hated, all characters die. A minority opinion holds that the righteous ones are really just Put on a Bus until the head writer's son gets back from his coffee break.

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  13. - Top - End - #43
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    Default Re: What does the Crimson Mantle’s aging block do?

    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    Wouldn't that equally apply to Xykon, and say that he's also being stuck in teenager mode, despite getting to what looks like venerable age? If anything, that should go to show that such a mentality is completely decoupled from aging.
    Yes indeed, the way Xykon is written is, to me, in the voice of a power gamer / munchkin/ who wanted to get awesome powers and liched out. I was going to mention that in the other post but was trying to focus just on Red Cloak.
    FWIW, Belkar also comes across that way to me: teenager CE grief player (initially) who is ever so slowly growing up a bit.
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    Default Re: What does the Crimson Mantle’s aging block do?

    If he doesn't advance in age categories, he loses the bonuses to mental stats that simulate growing wiser, more beautiful and better eyed as you age.
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    RedWizardGuy

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    Default Re: What does the Crimson Mantle’s aging block do?

    Quote Originally Posted by Rrmcklin View Post
    I agree with the sentiment that the Crimson Mantle isn't somehow stunting Redcloak's emotional growth, and would actually think it would hurt the character and make him much less interesting if that were the case.

    If that's what Peelee is saying, I'm with them. I think people might be taking Right-Eye calling him out much more literally than it was actually intended, people say generic "you're stuck as that same angry teenager" lines to people like Redcloak all the time.
    Yeah, while I think Right-Eye is correct in the sense that he accurately describes Redcloak’s mindset, I don’t actually think it’s literally the cloak that’s responsible for it. I’m AFB, but I recall the way he phrased it makes it so it can be interpreted more as an analogy anyway?


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  16. - Top - End - #46
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    Default Re: What does the Crimson Mantle’s aging block do?

    Slightly extended transcription of the line in question, for those away from book:

    Spoiler: Start of Darkness
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    Redcloak: My Plan is for the betterment of the goblin people!

    Right-Eye: You don't even KNOW the goblin people. Do you think this is what they want? To be ruled by an insane lich? To be killed by poor planning, or mood swings?

    Redcloak: Look, I've spent my entire life—

    Right-Eye: Your life? Your LIFE?? Brother, you may have had a lifetime, but you haven't had a life since the day you put on that cloak. Life is about growing—growing older, growing wiser, growing closer to your loved ones. But you, you're frozen in time. You're the same angry kid who took that artifact off of your master's corpse that day.

    Redcloak: Oh, so now you've gained some great insight on the universe by letting your body and mind deteriorate?

    Right-Eye: YES! When you're faced with your own mortality, you have no choice but to consider what's best for the next generation. And this deal with Xykon is killing our spirit almost as fast as it's killing our bodies. You don't even know what it is you're trying to better, because you don't know what it's like not to serve an undead overlord, or a petty spiteful god.


    It's interesting that Right-Eye explicitly does link physical aging and decay with a concept of insight and growth. Mortality, and the awareness of it, is a fundamental aspect of life as Right-Eye has come to understand it, and Redcloak's eternal youth flies in the face of that.

  17. - Top - End - #47
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    Default Re: What does the Crimson Mantle’s aging block do?

    Quote Originally Posted by B. Dandelion View Post
    Slightly extended transcription of the line in question, for those away from book:

    Spoiler: Start of Darkness
    Show
    Redcloak: My Plan is for the betterment of the goblin people!

    Right-Eye: You don't even KNOW the goblin people. Do you think this is what they want? To be ruled by an insane lich? To be killed by poor planning, or mood swings?

    Redcloak: Look, I've spent my entire life—

    Right-Eye: Your life? Your LIFE?? Brother, you may have had a lifetime, but you haven't had a life since the day you put on that cloak. Life is about growing—growing older, growing wiser, growing closer to your loved ones. But you, you're frozen in time. You're the same angry kid who took that artifact off of your master's corpse that day.

    Redcloak: Oh, so now you've gained some great insight on the universe by letting your body and mind deteriorate?

    Right-Eye: YES! When you're faced with your own mortality, you have no choice but to consider what's best for the next generation. And this deal with Xykon is killing our spirit almost as fast as it's killing our bodies. You don't even know what it is you're trying to better, because you don't know what it's like not to serve an undead overlord, or a petty spiteful god.


    It's interesting that Right-Eye explicitly does link physical aging and decay with a concept of insight and growth. Mortality, and the awareness of it, is a fundamental aspect of life as Right-Eye has come to understand it, and Redcloak's eternal youth flies in the face of that.
    Ah, Redcloak's suffering "immortal immaturity" syndrome.

  18. - Top - End - #48
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    Default Re: What does the Crimson Mantle’s aging block do?

    You're the same angry kid who took that artifact off of your master's corpse that day.

    I think that support's Grey Wolf's take on this.
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    Default Re: What does the Crimson Mantle’s aging block do?

    Quote Originally Posted by KorvinStarmast View Post
    You're the same angry kid who took that artifact off of your master's corpse that day.

    I think that support's Grey Wolf's take on this.
    I'm pretty sure that's a metaphor. In that moment, an unknown goblin kid died, and Redcloak was born. I mean, I think his lack of aging has contributed to his immaturity, in the sense of...Right-Eye has a finite lifespan, and, even if he wasn't murdered, he'd only have so much time, and he ultimately decided that life was too short to waste on revenge. Redcloak? He has effectively infinite time. His plan to tear down humans rather then build up goblins is an inevitable consequence of his immortality not having forced him to move past his grief. It's mainly symbolic; He is, literally as well as figuratively, stuck in that one moment of watching Paladins slaughter his village, but the cloak isn't mind-controlling him: His lack of aging may have contributed to him not moving on from his grief, and him having the time to spend on elaborate revenge schemes, but his choices are still his own.

  20. - Top - End - #50
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    Default Re: What does the Crimson Mantle’s aging block do?

    Putting on the mantle and accepting the duties of head priest to execute the plan seems to have ensured he wouldn’t move on, because TDO basically gave him the llamas his goal in life at that point.

    As an aside, teenager has to be the worst age to be stuck at for decades. Poor Redcloak must wish he had at least gotten stuck at a less awkward age.

  21. - Top - End - #51
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    Default Re: What does the Crimson Mantle’s aging block do?

    Quote Originally Posted by KorvinStarmast View Post
    You're the same angry kid who took that artifact off of your master's corpse that day.

    I think that support's Grey Wolf's take on this.
    Indeed it does. Thanks, B. Dandelion.

    Quote Originally Posted by woweedd View Post
    I'm pretty sure that's a metaphor
    I don't see why you'd make that assumption. RE is quite clear that RC is being affected by how the clock stops aging. And if you consider it a metaphor, it doesn't make it any less true.

    Quote Originally Posted by woweedd View Post
    the cloak isn't mind-controlling him
    No-one is claiming otherwise, and I have already addressed this.

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    Default Re: What does the Crimson Mantle’s aging block do?

    Honestly, I think the mantle has seriously slowed Red Cloak's physical aging, but I think his mental aging is slowed in a more symbolic way. That is, the mantle is not the cause of his delayed maturity, but is there almost to give viewers a physical token of his immaturity. It's a cue, but they're not linked aside from that. This seriously aggravates me because I am very interested in how physical brain growth and change affects personality, which means that if RC's physical aging was slowed, so should the physical aging in his brain and thus his personality should be affected--but that's something most fantasy fiction seems to toss out the window anyway...

    Until we have word from Rich (unlikely), it's all speculation on something that could very easily be interpreted either way, so there's no right or canon answer. If I say "My brother Bob has been crazy since his wife left him", you could interpret it as, yes, he's been certifiable since his wife left him, but an equally valid interpretation would be that he's just been off in behavior (maybe more temperamental or more of a shut in) since his wife left him--and given that he's my brother, it's more likely that I would be speaking from a more personal point of view than a detached outsider (who wouldn't be speaking from a moment of emotion) making a psychological analysis.

  23. - Top - End - #53
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    Default Re: What does the Crimson Mantle’s aging block do?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mariele View Post
    Honestly, I think the mantle has seriously slowed Red Cloak's physical aging, but I think his mental aging is slowed in a more symbolic way. That is, the mantle is not the cause of his delayed maturity, but is there almost to give viewers a physical token of his immaturity. It's a cue, but they're not linked aside from that. This seriously aggravates me because I am very interested in how physical brain growth and change affects personality, which means that if RC's physical aging was slowed, so should the physical aging in his brain and thus his personality should be affected--but that's something most fantasy fiction seems to toss out the window anyway...

    Until we have word from Rich (unlikely), it's all speculation on something that could very easily be interpreted either way, so there's no right or canon answer. If I say "My brother Bob has been crazy since his wife left him", you could interpret it as, yes, he's been certifiable since his wife left him, but an equally valid interpretation would be that he's just been off in behavior (maybe more temperamental or more of a shut in) since his wife left him--and given that he's my brother, it's more likely that I would be speaking from a more personal point of view than a detached outsider (who wouldn't be speaking from a moment of emotion) making a psychological analysis.
    Again: this is a world where an immortal soul is a thing that exists. I doubt the physical brain matters as much as it does in our world.

  24. - Top - End - #54
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    Default Re: What does the Crimson Mantle’s aging block do?

    Quote Originally Posted by Vinyadan View Post
    If he doesn't advance in age categories, he loses the bonuses to mental stats that simulate growing wiser, more beautiful and better eyed as you age.
    I was looking for clarification in this in 3.5, but can't find it.

    But in earlier versions of the game they distinguished between physical age and actual age. So a change on one didn't automatically affect the other.

    EX: Monk's timeless body - The monk's physical stats would become immune to age changes at the point the ability was required. But they'd still get the mental bonuses.

    EX: A magical attack ages a character two age categories instantly. They suffer the physical penalties but don't get the mental bonuses.

    I assume it works the same way in later versions.
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    Default Re: What does the Crimson Mantle’s aging block do?

    Quote Originally Posted by woweedd View Post
    Again: this is a world where an immortal soul is a thing that exists. I doubt the physical brain matters as much as it does in our world.
    Which was my point...

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    Default Re: What does the Crimson Mantle’s aging block do?

    If that's the case is Redcloak getting aging bonuses to his mental stats though he is physically still a teenager?

    I got the impression he wasn't supposed to be growing older and wiser (and smarter and more charming) due to the Mantle.

    If not that would seem to indicate that the Mantle stops him from maturing to a certain extent. Not that he can't mature in some ways due to experience; he clearly changes as a character.

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    Default Re: What does the Crimson Mantle’s aging block do?

    Quote Originally Posted by CriticalFailure View Post
    If that's the case is Redcloak getting aging bonuses to his mental stats though he is physically still a teenager?

    I got the impression he wasn't supposed to be growing older and wiser (and smarter and more charming) due to the Mantle.

    If not that would seem to indicate that the Mantle stops him from maturing to a certain extent. Not that he can't mature in some ways due to experience; he clearly changes as a character.
    Why do you have that impression? If it's because of what Right-Eye said, it should be pointed out it's not like Right-Eye is an expert on how the Crimson Mantle actually functions.

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    Default Re: What does the Crimson Mantle’s aging block do?

    Quote Originally Posted by Grey_Wolf_c View Post
    Indeed it does. Thanks, B. Dandelion.
    While I am not B Dandelion, you are welcome.
    Quote Originally Posted by woweedd View Post
    Again: this is a world where an immortal soul is a thing that exists. I doubt the physical brain matters as much as it does in our world.
    Does that mean that everyone uses INT as a dump stat?
    Last edited by KorvinStarmast; 2019-04-03 at 04:03 PM.
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    Default Re: What does the Crimson Mantle’s aging block do?

    Quote Originally Posted by KorvinStarmast View Post
    While I am not B Dandelion, you are welcome.
    Does that mean that everyone uses INT as a dump stat?
    A. I don't know what you mean.
    B. No, Wisdom. I mean, have you MET the main cast?

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    Default Re: What does the Crimson Mantle’s aging block do?

    Quote Originally Posted by KorvinStarmast View Post
    While I am not B Dandelion, you are welcome.
    Thor damnit, I knew I should’ve clarified. I was agreeing with you, and at the same time thanking B. for finding the quote.

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