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  1. - Top - End - #1
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    Default D&D Games: Enhanced Editions Master Playthrough?

    I've decided to try and figure out and make plans for a master playthrough of Baldur's Gate: Enhanced Edition, Siege of Dragonspear, Baldur's Gate II: Enhanced Edition, Icewind Dale: Enhanced Edition, and Neverwinter Nights: Enhanced Edition. Basically an attempt to set up a "master headcanon," if you will. And naturally such a grand project is overwhelming to think of, and I was wondering if I can get some help sorting this out.

    As I've stated in threads like these, I got into D&D primarily during the days of 3.0 and 3.5, only now sampling 2e IRL and kind of struggling to get it (the DM made everyone's character sheet and I heavily rely on his prompting in combat scenarios). So I'm looking for advice on how to build my characters for these games so I can not only survive the challenges, but also DO ALL THE QUESTS. I understand some quests are barred to you or play out differently due to things but alignment, and (at least the Baldur's Gate games) provide a massive number of companions, more than can fit in an individual party, many of whom interact with each other or are mutually exclusive, so I'm unsure how to unpack all that, doing everyone's sidequests and deciding which character for my PC may start a romantic relationship with. It's not like Neverwinter Nights 2's Storm of Zehir campaign where you can recruit the NPC companion, have them in your party for a minute, and then dismiss them so you can get their slide in the epilogue.

    I also don't want to basically make the same character for each game, the same person wearing different masks. So I'm trying to figure out how to make characters who feel different enough that it feels more like Faerun is a big world with many different heroes rather than just one powerful character type who is optimized for any situation.

    And where exactly do the Black Pits DLCs fit into the stories? Should I play those before or after the main stories?

    Thank you all, in advance, for helping me figure out what the heck I'm doing so I can finally experience these classic games (with the exception of NN:EE, as I've played the Diamond Edition of that back in college)!
    Last edited by Archpaladin Zousha; 2019-04-02 at 07:29 PM.
    "Reach down into your heart and you'll find many reasons to fight. Survival. Honor. Glory. But what about those who feel it's their duty to protect the innocent? There you'll find a warrior savage enough to match any dragon, and in the end, they'll retain what the others won't. Their humanity."

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    Default Re: D&D Games: Enhanced Editions Master Playthrough?

    I'm really struggling to diversify my character builds, since I feel like I'm instinctively drawn to Paladin/Sorceror types (or Fighter/Mage types in the 2e games), but I feel like if I play that for each game, I'm basically the same person with different hats...

    Also, should I look into picking up Icewind Dale 2: Complete and Neverwinter Nights 2: Complete from GOG.com to complete the timeline, so to speak? I understand that it's unlikely that Icewind Dale 2 won't get an Enhanced Edition from Beamdog because the source code is missing or something, and Neverwinter Nights 2 is kind of bound up in copyright things with Atari or something, but at the same time, I can't predict the future, so they MIGHT get Enhanced, especially NWN 2, and in the present, I'm hesitant to split my game library.
    "Reach down into your heart and you'll find many reasons to fight. Survival. Honor. Glory. But what about those who feel it's their duty to protect the innocent? There you'll find a warrior savage enough to match any dragon, and in the end, they'll retain what the others won't. Their humanity."

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    Default Re: D&D Games: Enhanced Editions Master Playthrough?

    If you can find it and stand the old interface, add Planescape: Torment to your list.

    Icewind Dale, BG1/2, and Neverwinter Nights all follow different plotlines at different times in different parts of the Forgotten Realms.

    You can beat NWN and the expansions with just about anything. I think last time I touched the game I found an old save that was a scythe-wielding Paladin/Sorcerer/Red Dragon Disciple. Technically everything should work together, but you end up with a 2nd-rate melee character with 3rd-rate spellcasting, so it's really underpowered.

    For Baldur's Gate I & II, if you want a single character to run through both games, a dual-classed Cleric/Ranger is pretty good. You can dual wield or use a shield, and there are good warhammer options (BG1) and excellent mace & warhammer options (BGII). Thanks to the way the spell lists are designed, you end up being able to cast high level druid spells (notably Iron Skins and Insect Plague) from your cleric slots.
    For BG2, a Paladin is also a good option, as what is unarguably the single most powerful sword in the game is Paladin only (or thief with Use Any Item at the epic 3M XP breakpoint), and there's only one Paladin NPC. Inquisitor is strong against casters but lacks healing; Cavalier is useful against many enemies, but not super powerful; Undead Hunter is very handy early on, but you can pick up the immunities later with items.

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    Default Re: D&D Games: Enhanced Editions Master Playthrough?

    For the Baldur's Gate EE Trilogy (BG1EE, Siege of Dragonspear, BG2EE), there are a lot of ways to play it that I've found fun.

    1) Swashbuckler is probably my favorite single-class option as it paint the picture of effectively an anti-Bhaalspawn as it foregoes the ruthless quick kill (backstab) in favor of a more well-rounded competence. None of the games require that much from a thief, but they do generally require one and Imoen isn't always around to save your sorry butt. SoD in particular has limited rogues to choose from, Safana and Glint, with Safana being unplayably unpleasant to me. Glint is great, and a cleric to boot so he ticks two requirements with one charismatic recruit, but he's SoD only with no connection to the greater narrative, so sometimes I prefer to use a thief of my own instead.

    2) Sorceror has a new kit in EE, the Dragon Disciple, which is pretty good. You don't get as many spells per day (-1 per spell level), but you get a boatload of passive bonuses such as increased hit die (d6 rather than d4), increased CON (you can easily get 20 CON, and thus innate regeneration), fire resistance, and a natural armor bonus that stacks with armor - well, robes. When you factor in how many magic item slots and spell slots that frees up and the fact that all of the items/spells that can do that stuff stack with the innate bonuses, it's a fairly good trade in my book. When I play a DD, I usually headcanon it as divine influence rather than draconic, that even in their normal form my sorcerer is half Slayer.

    3) Monk absolutely owns BG2, particularly ToB. It's tricky early on, but good grief they kick butt in the end. The EE series does include a monk in Rasaad, who isn't bad. Unfortunately his stats are lackluster to be kind, making him very gear-reliant in order to even try to be competitive (which is a problem given their limited access to gear). In ToB, however, he's still the demigod of destruction any monk is. Playing a monk, I like to envision Gorion trying to instill in the character the kind of discipline needed to overcome their base nature as a Bhaalspawn.

    4) Cleric/Ranger was at one point awesome beyond imagining, as the divine spells were pooled and gave you access to all cleric and druid spells, combined with a slightly broader skillset (in martial prowess and the addition of stealth). The druid specific spells include some major doozies, such as an AoE 24 Hour invisibility, a stoneskin alternative, and the ultimate mage disruptor. End result is an obscenely powerful melee Swiss army knife that can act as a main healer. Doesn't work so well anymore, as Beamdog decided to fix this problem in a patch: the ranger class only unlocks spell levels as they gain access to them, so you will never get access to the fun stuff. You can modify the config file to restore this functionality, but I don't know if you'd count that as legit.

    5) Shaman is an odd new class. It acts like a druidic sorceror, getting access to only a few spells but getting to cast whatever they want more often than others would. They also get as "free" spells a list of shaman-only spells that are actually pretty decent if used properly. They get a rather odd set of weapon proficiencies, including axes and shortbows. They also get a rather odd class feature in Dancing: you can't do anything with the character (moving or performing any action breaks the effect), but while dancing you summon a near continuous stream of spirit animals and elementals who fight your enemies. The quality of the summons, the number you can maintain at a time, and the likelihood of spawning something in a given round improve as you gain levels. Unfortunately, the summons aren't particularly powerful and the inability to move or directly control the summons means that it's a long buildup to raise a spirit army and it will rarely be relevant for more than one fight, if that. But it's an unlimited resource and it's just a nice bonus. Siege of Dragonspear includes a recruitable shaman in M'khiin, my favorite character in the game, though she doesn't appear in BG2EE. Speaking of BG2EE, there is no shaman stronghold, so shamans miss out on some combination of bonus XP, gold, magical items, and story. Some of the strongholds aren't that great, though, so how much that hurts is up to you. I like the class, flavor-wise, as a sort of "death-positive" class (using spirits as allies rather than slaves or victims) to counter the influence of Bhaal. Also, I've always had a soft spot for the "gypsy dancer heroine" archetype, which this class plays to, so there's that.

    6) Cleric/Thief or Fighter/Cleric/Thief is a good one-stop shop for taking out all of your required roles in one go, freeing you up to have pretty much any party makeup you'd like. The game doesn't make very harsh demands of a thief and any form of cleric is a valuable asset. If you don't want to waste party space on these prerequisite roles, this isn't a bad idea. Narrative-wise it makes sense, too, as your primary influences growing up were the order of Oghma and Imoen, which could easily split a person between religion and mischief.

    7) Skald is my "official" main character. Skald isn't that powerful on its own, but combine it with a powerful party and you've got a supremely powerful party. Access to magic of limited spell level but advanced caster level (great for variable dependent spells like Magic Missile and Chromatic Orb) is pretty useful, and access to wands makes it even better. As a fighter, you're reasonably okay (if you complete Dorn's personal questline you can get a suit of elven chain as soon as you can reach Baldur's Gate, which really helps), but your song can really turn the tide of a tough fight. Personally, I adore the idea of the most feared character in the story being less than imposing personally but an effective leader who could turn a pack of wolves into a pack of dire wolves.

    The Black Pits modes for BG1EE and BG2EE are mainly an excuse to build your own party and participate in fights with them. They're based in a single location (an arena, but different arenas in each). There's some narrative in the first game, but it's primarily regarding the primary antagonist: a drow sorceror named Baeloth the Entertainer, who happens to run the arena in the first game. In the second game, you're in an arena in Thay. Baeloth is a recruitable character in BG1EE and Siege of Dragonspear, though he's a tricky recruit in BG1EE. Essentially, you need a party that's level 5 or higher before visiting the south-west corner of one of the forest zones (Peldvale, I think). As you walk past a tower, he just appears out of nowhere (having just been beaten in the Black Pits) and graciously allows you to benefit from his company. He's a drow, so you have the -2 to rep for recruiting him, but he's a powerhouse sorceror whose showman persona and quite possibly subconsicous tendency for alliteration can be quite entertaining, especially in a party with EE exclusives like Neera and Rasaad. In SoD, he's just in the forest free for you to recruit, but you'll generally want to choose between him and M'khiin, as the two do not get along. M'khiin is awesome enough that I've never had a problem with that decision.

    Other games:

    Icewind Dale 1 & 2 are not directly related to Baldur's Gate (though you can buy some IWD themed gear in BG2). They aren't even thematically similar - rather than being a narrative-driven dive into the life of a person forced into a tug of war between mortality and divinity, IWD is a loot-focused dungeon crawler where your party is player-generated and lack roles in the narrative beyond "these are the people killing you today". If you play BG for the gameplay, IWD is right up your alley. If you play BG for the story, it's not a very satisfying experience.

    If you are a more story-focused player, I'd recommend Planescape: Torment. The combat isn't the best part of the game (honestly it's mostly a distraction from the story), but the story is powerful - quite possibly better than Baldur's Gate itself, in fact. Your character, an amnesiac so covered in scars that he resembles a zombie, wakes up on a mortuary slab in the extraplanar city of Sigil. He quickly learns he's effectively immortal, but that's about it. Trying to figure out why you're immortal and who you are and what you can do about any of it is the focus of the game. You gather a crew of exotic and conflicted characters, ranging from a wise-cracking floating skull to a chaste succubus to what is effectively a malfunctioning robot, and in this case it's a plot point that they're like that (by your nature you attract broken people to your side). Really good stuff, but saddled with a combat system that doesn't do it any real favors.

    Neverwinter Nights 1 & 2 are D&D 3/3.5 games and not directly related to Baldur's Gate. NWN1 is effectively an excuse to create a multiplayer, player-content-focused platform and is a pretty weak story. The expansion packs for it tell a much better story, though, following the students of a veteran adventurer forced to deal with the aftermath when their mentor's past adventures come back to haunt him. Still not the best told story, but it's light years better than the original campaign and pretty good. Also includes Deekin, the timid kobold bard, who is a personal favorite of mine. NWN2 is far more cinematic and narrative based, based around a village kid forced to reassemble the shards of a broken legendary sword. Companions are quite cliche (such as the fast-talking tiefling rogue and the dwarven fighter), but still charismatic enough to enjoy. The expansions are very different from one another. Mask of the Betrayer is an epic-level conclusion to the original story, while Storm of Zehir is almost a completely different style of game altogether, sculpted to feel more like a real tabletop game than a computer game to a surprising degree of success. The companions in Zehir are fairly compelling, but saddled with horrifically sub-optimal builds.

    I hope this long-winded monologue is of some help. I adore these games and love any opportunity to talk about them.
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    Default Re: D&D Games: Enhanced Editions Master Playthrough?

    Quote Originally Posted by J-H View Post
    For BG2, a Paladin is also a good option, as what is unarguably the single most powerful sword in the game
    Very arguably considering the practical applications and utility cost of items such as Foebane, Celestial Fury or Scarlet Ninja-To, and also considering that dual-wielding is a superior fighting style. Carsomyr is often not as strong as dual-wielding a Foebane+Purifier combo on a Paladin, although it's still a worthy weapon to keep around. It's just that it's often not necessarily the strongest choice for pure damage dealing.
    Quote Originally Posted by J-H View Post
    Inquisitor is strong against casters but lacks healing
    More importantly, it lacks Armor of Faith, one of the very few ways you can receive %-based damage reduction (with Hardiness and an off-hand Defender of Easthaven, it amounts to a lot). Still, without nerfs appointed by Sword Coast Stratagems mod (very popular difficulty enhancer that doesn't rely on cheese), Inquisitor is very strong because the 2x dispel he casts trivializes fights that would otherwise require knowing the Mage Chess dynamic.
    Quote Originally Posted by J-H View Post
    Cavalier is useful against many enemies, but not super powerful
    Cavalier is mostly just a Paladin+ with an ultimately irrelevant drawback that can be sidestepped because thrown axes and daggers do not care for the kit's flaw. It's just a plain better Paladin for everything except late BG1 where the best items in the game are the various magical arrows, and even there you can live with it.
    Quote Originally Posted by Calemyr View Post
    3) Monk absolutely owns BG2, particularly ToB.
    It does not. It's a garbage class that takes forever to reach any sort of power level, and its restrictions make it painful to play through BG1 (no ranged options worth shaking a stick at). A well-played, optimized pure Berserker can bring about all of the Monk goodies to the table and more, and he doesn't have to suffer through an atrocious early game (instead farming Sirines effortlessly) and lackluster mid-game to get to that point. There's hardly anything a Monk has that you can't replicate through martial HLAs or keeping a good assortment of off-hand items or consumables. The saving throws and magic resistance aren't worth it, and their damage dealing abilities aren't as great as a dual-wielding warrior with Improved Haste (especially considering the utility available on weapons). They also aren't great tanks because Baldur's Gate is designed accidentally in such a way that tanking itemization is garbage for warriors (Avoidance, as in Armor Class, does not scale well at all into ToB and there's very little % damage reduction) and the best tanks are arcane spellcasters, and Monks can't even wear a helmet so they die.

    Here are my ideas for solid Baldur's Gate characters for each flavor of character:
    Single-classes
    Warriors:
    Cavalier Paladin. As mentioned before, the class is just a Paladin++, and Paladins are very satisfying to play. Very high Charisma that they are stuck with, as well as the amount of rep you get, means you will inevitably have good shop prices. High Charisma even allows you to sidestep inter-party conflicts allowing you to keep a few NPCs that would otherwise not be good neighbors. The spellcasting abilities of the Paladin will add some bonus flavor. I could also recommend the Archer Ranger for the sheer amount of power and utility the class brings (even in ToB, where they are generally surmised as a "poor late game choice" (something that stems from various bits of misinformation scattered through old online discussions and guides, I find), they still hit like a truck with their constant damage scaling through levels, massive APR, Called Shot and possibility to apply Warrior HLAs at range - most entertainingly, Smite and Greater Deathblow), but the Archer Ranger is also a freaking turret that you might find monotonous even if it does crush everything in its path; you might miss the nuance from positioning yourself properly and stuff.
    For a more pure martial I'd also recommend a Barbarian due to ease of use, various minor goodies (immunity to backstab, massive health pool, slight movement speed increase) and the fact that Barbarians get the Fighter stronghold, which is a strong contender for one of the best ones in the game. They're among the better purely martial tanks.
    Rogues:
    The Blade Bard. Although the Skald nomination given by Calemyr is excellent (the Bard kits are all overall great), your tenure as a F/M fan will make you love the Blade. You get the gish flavor from the start with the distinctive Offensive and Defensive spins and the Bardic spellcasting makes this class quite potent on the frontline. You don't really sing much, but that's okay because only the Skald and the end-game High Level Ability Enhanced Bard Song is worth anything in BG; this isn't IWD. (Incidentally, I'd keep a "singing" type of Bard around for IWD1, where the game really, really, REALLY wants you to have a support Bard on the backline due to the various songs the game introduces).
    Otherwise, the Bounty Hunter Thief. The Assassin was nerfed in BGEE due to the fact that it shares the Poison weapon skill with the Blackguard towards whom the nerf to the skill was aimed at (because apparently a 1 Attack Per Round class that can use poison at middling THAC0 should also suffer because a martial class can apply said poison at 5 Attacks Per Round with Warrior THAC0. Amazing.). The Bounty Hunter is very entertaining to play and the traps scale well into late game. The only problem you might have is that traps can be considered a cheesy playstyle. Otherwise I like the Swashbuckler mentioned by Calemyr for all the reasons, but for the almost exact same flavor I would almost always pick a Fighter/Thief multiclass, either Elf or Halfling. Single-classed Thieves can be great fun to play, but they're also micro-intensive.
    Wizards:
    Sorcerer. They're obnoxiously good in BG, as arcanists generally rule BG2 and Sorcerers have excellent level scaling, plus the game throws a ton of solid spellcaster NPCs that can help you make up for any shortcomings you do while levelling.
    Priests:
    Totemic Druid. Druids are bonkers in BG2 to make up for how bad they were in BG1, and now BGEE brings you a more proper Druid spell scaling in BG1, so you can live through the awful spell level 2. In BG2, Druids have three ridiculously broken spells that cement them as a good choice for any party - Insect Plague, Ironskins, and Nature's Beauty. They boast plenty of utility outside of it, but those are the big three. Insect Plague in particular is so good that I would consider Druids a decent pick even if they only had this ability. It's so good that multiple mods nerf the spell and the Druid with it.

    Munchkin multis and duals
    You said you don't want to be a one-trick gish pony, so maybe try something like Cleric/Mage, Mage/Thief or similar; although BG2 in particular is absolute heaven for gishes, with Human Berserker (9) -> Mage being one of the most potent combos in the game in terms of survivability, power and utility. I also think Thieves are best enjoyed as a multi- or dual-class simply because pure Thieves tend to rely on hoarding consumables, abusing utility and setting up the battlefield and having them hybridized with another class that can do some heavy lifting allows you to sometimes just let loose with a more direct approach. Coran and Jan Jansen are generally considered powerhouses for a reason.

    Otherwise play whatever you want because these games aren't that hard and everything is doable and entertaining.

    As for Icewind Dale, I think that game is very specifically best enjoyed in full party play and in order to help you with a master playthrough of that we'd have to design a full 6-man party for you. That might prove daunting... or you might just take a hodgepodge of all the suggestions in the thread. Icewind Dale 2 is a whole different bag of worms, too, and optimizing a 3rd edition party would take a huge page to do so.

    As for NWN1, my favourite build for a clean and casual playthrough is the humble Fighter/Rogue/Weapon Master as it allows you to hack'n'slash through the game while getting a ton of skill dumps to put into the speech skills which I enjoy having maxed out in every game since the original Fallout. It's more of a clever, guile-based Fighter with an uberweapon fishing for crits than a proper Fighter/Rogue mix; the Rogue part is mostly there for Persuade and Tumble dumps for me. That said, NWN1 is also heaven for Clerics and Druids in particular. Clerics and Paladins should have a great run through the original content of NWN1 because there's a lot of stuff to smite and plenty of undead to deal with.
    Last edited by Winthur; 2019-04-04 at 10:53 PM.
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    Default Re: D&D Games: Enhanced Editions Master Playthrough?

    Icewind Dale; EE is pretty much the bad times. I very much prefer the Complete Edition from GOG.

    One of the most important things about IWD is that the XP cap is Level 30 in any class - including multi-classes. It's possible to be a 30/30/30 Fighter/Mage/Thief. However, the main thing you have to concern yourself with is that in IWD, single-classed PCs are basically pointless because your PCs get basically unlimited XP. However, there isn't necessarily unlimited XP in the game.

    Paladins and Bards may be single-classed PCs, but there's enough stuff in the game that keeps them relevant. Specifically, one of the best weapons in the game for Paladins, and Bards getting a song that gives basically permanent 2HP/round Regeneration on your entire party. However, it should be noted that Kits, from EE, cannot use basically the best ability in the entire game, 'cause turns out, Baldur's Gate 2 wasn't made for Icewind Dale 1. Who knew?

    The other thing in Icewind Dale, is the random item generation, and the restrictions on several random items in the game.
    Your alignment, matters.
    Your race, matters.
    The best helmet in the game can only be worn by Halflings and Gnomes. So, not only do you have to be a Multi-Class (because if you're not a Paladin or Bard you should be Multi-ing or Dual-ing), but one of your Classes has to be able to wear a helmet. That is, a Gnome Thief/Mage is bad. But a Halfling Fighter/Thief is awesome.

    You can't even pre-build your characters because, fact is, you don't know what items you're gonna get on any given run. You can save-scum to get the item you want, however it does require doing the entire area from scratch. All random items on a map are generated when you enter the area for the first time - not when you open the chest/kill the boss. That said, every time your level-up would grant you a proficiency point...Maybe don't level up until you've cleared an area and know what items you have.

    That said, there are a few fixed items in the game that you can build around; Pale Justice is a Long Sword +4 (+7 vs. Evil [so, basically everything], immunity to Fear and Charm) that is only usable by Paladins and it has a fixed location in the game. Which means at some point in the game - not necessarily during character generation - your Paladin is going to want to put 2-stars into Long Sword, and walk around sword-and-board. But, in the EE, certain Paladin kits are already immune to Fear and Charm so...Lame.
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    Default Re: D&D Games: Enhanced Editions Master Playthrough?

    Quote Originally Posted by Cheesegear View Post
    But, in the EE, certain Paladin kits are already immune to Fear and Charm so...Lame.
    There's also that under IWD-with-BG2-mechanics you will want to eventually dual-wield on every possible martial because that's the best weapon style in BG2 by far and the math behind APR (and its interaction with Improved Haste) ensures that you always want to wield two weapons if possible.

    Incidentally, with the addition of kits and dual-wielding IWDEE is decidedly a much easier game than vanilla.
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    Default Re: D&D Games: Enhanced Editions Master Playthrough?

    I'll own up to the monk. I am not a hardcore player (I'll never go beyond standard difficulty, much less Legacy of Bhaal), so I'm never really that pressed for sheer optimization. In my experience, monks combine speed, attack rate, and raw damage in solid proportion in the end-game, such that often I found it easier to just let the monk wipe out armies while the rest of the party watched from the sidelines. I found them to be scarily effective, but I didn't play on a high enough difficulty level that I needed every scrap of power in order to dominate. Of course, they are such feeble creatures in BG1 and early BG2 that it's probably my weakest suggestion even with my opinion on their end-game effectiveness.

    Swashbuckler vs Fighter/Thief: I'll be honest. I tend to cheat when I play a thief myself - start as a human berserker, dual class into thief at level 2, then use Shadowkeeper to swap the the kit to swashbuckler. The increased ability to specialize is welcome, the extra HP is vital early on, and the ability to throw on more armor options pays off at times. Plus, there are times when a berserker rage is the solution to all of life's problems, such as mages that like maze and imprisonment. Given the choice between a standard swashbuckler and a standard multi-class, I favor the swashbuckler. You can still specialize in melee weapons (multi-class warriors can't do better than that, anyway), the defensive and offensive buffs are really handy, and there's no such thing as too many skill points. Fighter/Thief, however, *can* take Use Any Item and effectively wield paladin-exclusive weapons, which is always fun - particularly backstabbing something with the Purifier.

    For NWN, what kind of weapon do you favor for your weapon master? Kukri? Rapier? Scythe? I always got a kick out of playing a scythe weapon master as a farmer-turned-adventurer. Why else would a fighter use a field scythe in combat rather than a war scythe? Okay, other than edge lords...
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    Default Re: D&D Games: Enhanced Editions Master Playthrough?

    Quote Originally Posted by Winthur View Post
    There's also that under IWD-with-BG2-mechanics you will want to eventually dual-wield on every possible martial...
    Yeah. I forgot about that.
    Ranger/Cleric, or Ranger >> Cleric is already one of the best PCs in the game. Giving them double damage output only makes them even stronger. There's ****-loads of magical blunt weapons in the game, even with IWD's random loot.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Calemyr View Post
    I'll own up to the monk. I am not a hardcore player (I'll never go beyond standard difficulty, much less Legacy of Bhaal)
    Oh, I don't play Legacy of Bhaal myself, as it's a busted difficulty which has its own sleuth of problems (here, the most successful approach doesn't involve melee whatsoever; you kite everything at range and abuse the fact that your summons also are afflicted by the LoB difficulty modifiers) - I add challenge to the game through mods (I recommend Sword Coast Stratagems, even with just the AI fixes, to everyone) and play on Core or Insane depending on the mood and desired masochism level.
    Quote Originally Posted by Calemyr View Post
    In my experience, monks combine speed, attack rate, and raw damage in solid proportion in the end-game, such that often I found it easier to just let the monk wipe out armies while the rest of the party watched from the sidelines.
    See, this does work, except one of the issues that is overlooked in the equation is that Fighters of all shapes are capable of doing it in Vanilla Core Difficulty all on their own because BG2 throws tons of powerful artifacts at you, and a Fighter doesn't have to suffer through an atrocious early game or a Human-only race restriction to get anywhere. I like the concept of Monks and have played them in many games, but BG2 doesn't even deliver on the "Magikarp Power" potential, in my opinion, because all of the good stuff they get in the late game is achievable - and even surpassable - by regular martials, except with less prep. Add on the possibility of Fighters being duals or multis, too. For all the work you have to put into levelling one, the payoff is fairly miniscule.


    Quote Originally Posted by Calemyr View Post
    Swashbuckler vs Fighter/Thief: I'll be honest. I tend to cheat when I play a thief myself - start as a human berserker, dual class into thief at level 2, then use Shadowkeeper to swap the the kit to swashbuckler. The increased ability to specialize is welcome, the extra HP is vital early on, and the ability to throw on more armor options pays off at times. Plus, there are times when a berserker rage is the solution to all of life's problems, such as mages that like maze and imprisonment. Given the choice between a standard swashbuckler and a standard multi-class, I favor the swashbuckler. You can still specialize in melee weapons (multi-class warriors can't do better than that, anyway), the defensive and offensive buffs are really handy, and there's no such thing as too many skill points. Fighter/Thief, however, *can* take Use Any Item and effectively wield paladin-exclusive weapons, which is always fun - particularly backstabbing something with the Purifier.
    On that note, have you tried dualing out of Swashbuckler? Dualled out at level 10, you get a solid chunk of Rogue utility and the scaling THAC0/damage bonuses and can go on to become a solid Mage or even Swash->Fighter. One nice thing you can do regardless of whatever Thief you go for is be your own homing True Seeing beacon due to Detect Illusions being quite a strong effect. Assassin->Mage also holds the distinction of allowing you to hurl poisoned Melf's Minute Meteors (5 APR weapon with a high enchantment value), for example.



    Quote Originally Posted by Calemyr View Post
    For NWN, what kind of weapon do you favor for your weapon master? Kukri? Rapier? Scythe? I always got a kick out of playing a scythe weapon master as a farmer-turned-adventurer. Why else would a fighter use a field scythe in combat rather than a war scythe? Okay, other than edge lords...
    There are a couple of choices here that stem from sheer power (Scimitar for regular sword-and-board critfisher, Scythe for maximized critical modifier, Rapier or Kukri in more Rogue-leaning builds that focus on amassing Sneak Attacks; I'm not a fan of that in the OC, though, because original game loves putting Sneak Attack immune enemies everywhere.) and some that are just plain fun (Double [Weapon] to "cheat" dual-wielding a bit or whatever weapon you want as long as it looks cool and has good representatives in a given module; Greataxe or Heavy Flail might give a nice "look" to a brutish character, the latter is quite a decent choice in the OC actually). F/R/WM is generally flexible enough in that department and the main point is that it's also clever and charismatic enough to experience most content due to the skilldumps in Rogue. You can also substitute Rogue with Monk to make yourself a Kama Weapon Master and abuse Flurry of Blows, although this one might run into Attack Bonus issues. Generally, though, the most cookie-cutter variants rely on the Weapon Master's critfishing.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Winthur View Post
    On that note, have you tried dualing out of Swashbuckler? Dualled out at level 10, you get a solid chunk of Rogue utility and the scaling THAC0/damage bonuses and can go on to become a solid Mage or even Swash->Fighter. One nice thing you can do regardless of whatever Thief you go for is be your own homing True Seeing beacon due to Detect Illusions being quite a strong effect. Assassin->Mage also holds the distinction of allowing you to hurl poisoned Melf's Minute Meteors (5 APR weapon with a high enchantment value), for example.
    Swash/Mage is one of my go-to mage builds, being more robust than a Kensai and more useful than a berserker. Good defenses on a mage is handy and, as with the Skald, the bonuses to attack and damage are wonderful for Minute Meteors (or Energy Blades, if you can swing that 9th level spells).

    For my part, the part more important than the main character, however, is the party. That's the part that really leaves me in choice paralysis, as once I know my party I can decide my main character fairly easily. Do you have a party in mind for the Baldur's Gate games?

    I usually use one of three narratives for my party (unless I have something particular in mind already).

    The EE Crew: Rasaad, Neera, and Dorn in all three games. Baeloth, Imoen, Glint, Yoshimo, and Hexxat/Wilson when available. Best played with a healer MC. BG1's companions are pretty lackluster, for the most part, and Enhanced Edition does little to fix that. The EE members, on the other hand, have a lot of banter and interactions with each other, making the party feel like a team instead of a squad of automatons. Since most EE characters are available in every game, it's easy enough to build a largely consistent party across the the trilogy. Wilson is an oddly effective fighter (kinda like a monk or a kensei, but a bear), but doesn't have much dialogue. Hexxat has several unique dungeons to crawl, some interesting mechanics to her name, and a lot of dialogue, but she's yet another evil character and sometimes you can only take so much evil. The EE crew has a lot of writing going for them, but there are diverse opinions as to the quality of that writing, as I'm sure Winthur can attest.

    The Canon Crew: Minsc and Jaheira in all three games. Imoen, Dynaheir, Khalid, and Sarevok when available, with a free slot or two to balance the party. This is the original canon crew, after all, and for good reason as they are a fairly well balanced party mechanically and conversationally. Sometimes I leave Jaheira and Khalid out of BG1 and SoD (after completing the first Mine, just to send them off) and take other characters - particularly Viconia, as she's one of characters to show up in all three games and is both available early in each and useful to boot. This is partly because Jaheira only technically shows up in SoD, as they couldn't get her voice actress back for the role nor find a reasonable facsimile, resulting in her having a lot less presence in SoD than other games. Khalid, however, is oddly awesome in SoD and the two aren't joined at the hip there, so you can have one and not the other.

    Ronin Warriors: (Named after an old anime where the party routinely got separated and forced to regroup in different combinations.) The only rule here is that, other than Imoen, nobody joins the party for more than one game, possibly even including the break between SoA and ToB. Besides allowing me to use practically anyone, particularly one-shot wonders like M'Khiin, Corwin, and Glint from SoD, I find that it evokes a strange sense of isolation where the main character builds comradery with a party only to lose it all again and again. It also leads helps me envision the main character being inordinately reliant on Imoen (the one constant in their chaotic life), to the point where their focus (if not obsession) towards saving/avenging her in SoD and SoA makes a lot of sense.

    Does anyone else use strategies like that for discerning the party they'll use in a given run?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Calemyr View Post
    The EE Crew:
    I dislike this idea vehemently because the EE NPCs are, in my opinion, written in a way that ranges in various ways from "obnoxious and intrusive" (they initiate dialogue a lot and their fairly grandiose narratives feel like they clash with the more open design of BG1; particularly the hulking half-orc with his own illegal class and special artifact sword feels jarring in BG1, and so are things like adding a Monk companion into BG1, realizing halfway through the design that he's horrible, and giving him a lot of personal items to compensate his weakness). EE companions want you to use them even though there's nothing particularly entertaining about having them (they're not mechanically amazing either). If the concern exists about the BG1 NPCs being fairly lackluster and barebones, the writing in the BG1 NPC Project mod is just about as good as it gets for adding banter, character interaction, and bonus characterization. I wouldn't say one should attempt to make a full EE party - they're not necessarily all that cohesive together, especially Dorn and his supremely evil tendencies.

    On a personal note, I also believe Rasaad to be the most absolutely worthless character ever written in a cRPG, all the way down to his bad specialization (Monks, for all of their supposed payoff, demand excessive amounts of micromanagement to be considered even close to a contributor to a party, and Rasaad gets welfare gear to help him compensate!), lackluster plot tied to him and a massive letdown of a romance ending.
    Quote Originally Posted by Calemyr View Post
    recommended to use a healer MC
    I wouldn't say a "healer MC" is ever really "necessary" because, as is the case often in D&D, having a healer is one of the less important requirements in any party. There's plenty of good NPCs capable of filling this role in either game (although clerics/druids are best off as buffing, debuffing, utility, summons and damage soaks; healing issues are best solved with Rods of Resurrection and potions in BG2); another reason why I wouldn't really bother with an "EE crew only" run. They're not even particularly synergistic with one another.
    Quote Originally Posted by Calemyr View Post
    Does anyone else use strategies like that for discerning the party they'll use in a given run?
    There's also the Classic Evil Party wherein Korgan (and in BG1, Kagain), Edwin and Viconia are joined in a triumvirate, each filling a good niche, and with some good neutral party members to spice it up. I'm not a big fan of Dorn (again, I find his presence overbearing and his overall ability overrated) or Hexxat, but they can be considered (I'd prefer Jan over Hexxat and keep the 6th spot for a wild card of any sort, including Imoen, Cernd or Haer'dalis). I do like Baeloth in BG1 somewhat.
    Honestly, though, I've played the game in multiple different setups and I think all of them have interesting things to offer - there are interesting insights to be offered between characters on completely different places on the alignment spectrum (Korgan / Mazzy, Korgan / Keldorn), so often I just throw the spaghetti at a wall and see what sticks.
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    BG1NPC is a wonderful mod and one I will not play BG1 without. On the PC. Can't do that one on a phone/tablet, however, which is what I usually use these days for these games. So I tend to favor the poor writing of the EE crew over the near-absent writing of everyone else. And then, because I like largely consistent parties, I am stuck with them. I mean, I don't hate them the way you do, and I like the additional content built around them, but they're fairly average at best, and downright cringe-inducing at times.

    The closest I can get to the Evil party is a redemption party with Viconia and Sarevok. I know, I'm a sap, but while an evil character can be entertaining I don't find much entertainment in an evil party. In Baldur's Gate, that is. There are games where playing against the angels is wonderful entertainment for the money, but this trilogy isn't.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Calemyr View Post
    The closest I can get to the Evil party is a redemption party with Viconia and Sarevok. I know, I'm a sap, but while an evil character can be entertaining I don't find much entertainment in an evil party. In Baldur's Gate, that is. There are games where playing against the angels is wonderful entertainment for the money, but this trilogy isn't.
    Well, I'd say that a game about being a spawn of Lord of Murder is a good enough opportunity for some evil, especially since you can interpret the means towards it somewhat loosely. My first Druid was a lynchpin in an Evil/Neutral party who saw his group as highly efficient mercenaries and means to an end. It helps that quite a few conversations humanize those characters, particularly little bits like Korgan saying he'd never harm a child and, of course, the entire Viconia romance. That said, I do think BG was never particularly good at giving you an "evil" way to go, as most evil quest resolutions tend to be about eating kittens for no reason. I enjoy my evil parties or evil party members as powerful assets that can use some disciplining in order to not run amok. (It helps that sufficiently high Charisma neuters inter-party conflicts...)
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    Whoa! This has given me a lot to chew on! Thank you!

    I do have Planescape: Torment - Enhanced Edition as well, I just hadn't included it as I initially thought of it outside of Forgotten Realms' continuity. Then I remember Zhaeve references Da'akon in Neverwinter Nights 2, so I'm re-including it now.

    The first thing I'm trying to straighten out is the general "timeline." I mean, some things are obvious, Baldur's Gate followed by Siege of Dragonspear followed by Baldur's Gate II, for example. But how do these other games relate to one another in terms of Forgotten Realms chronology? My understanding is...

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    ...the villain of Siege of Dragonspear is also the bad guy of one of the Icewind Dale games.


    So I'm wondering if I need to play Baldur's Gate first, then Icewind Dale, and then Siege of Dragonspear. And then there's where in the timeline the Black Pits stuff fits in, since defeating the villain there is what results in him appearing in Baldur's Gate's campaign. And where do these stories fit chronologically in Faerun's overall timeline too? I know Storm of Zehir takes place right before the Spellplague hits, and Baldur's Gate takes place after the Time of Troubles, but that's the extent of my knowledge...and throwing Planescape: Torment in there is a whole other can of worms!

    Second, I've got some basics in mind for the PCs I'll eventually play.

    Bhaalspawn: I've honestly been leaning mostly towards Bard, and wasn't sure between Skald or Blade, since as many of you have demonstrated, both are good. It also does fit with the background that was described, since Oghma has a lot of bard fans from my understanding. My main issue with this one is trying to figure out who to date...my instinct has been leaning most towards Aerie or maybe Anomen (my character's gender being determined by which one I pick), as Jaheira's is kind of...awkward, considering that Gorion asked her and Khalid to adopt the Bhaalspawn should something happen to him, so while she ISN'T the Bhaalspawn's step-mom, she COULD have been, and Viconia and Rasaad's are both tragic. And Minsc (and Boo!) are mandatory.

    Icewind Dale: I shall probably get to this later, as it requires creating a whole party, though I DO know I'll be including a Paladin because of Pale Justice.

    Black Pits: Same goes for this, creating a whole party.

    Neverwinter Nights OC: This is one that may be tricky, as in order to do all the quests you can in the Original Campaign, you not only have to have at least one level in an arcane spellcasting class (since one quest in the first chapter is barred from you if you don't), but also enough levels of Druid to complete the Druid Circle quest in the second chapter. Plus, naturally, I want to be able to persuade people, since only the main character can DO that.

    Neverwinter Nights SoU+HotU: I'm unsure of this one, but my understanding is that, at least in SoU, paladins get some extra stuff, so I'm leaning to at least having SOME levels of that. Like with the Bhaalspawn, though, I'm also trying to decide who my character may eventually date: Vhalen? Nathyrra? Aribeth? All I know is that Deekin will be by my side the whole time! He's my favorite character in the series!
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    Obviously the One True Canon for Baldur's Gate is to play a Dwarf and not let anyone taller than you into the party.

    It's reasonably practical too. You can get Montaron, Kagain, and Quayle basically as soon as you like. Kagain's a solid frontliner, Monty's really versatile with decent Dex, Str, and Con, and Quayle can cover your casting until you pick up Yeslick and Tiax later on.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Archpaladin Zousha View Post
    The first thing I'm trying to straighten out is the general "timeline."
    Ignore the impact of the EE content on the "timeline" because the ties between EE content are too flimsy to care and it's not like your Bhaalspawn is in any way related to your IWD party.
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    while she ISN'T the Bhaalspawn's step-mom, she COULD have been
    That's kind of hot to be honest.
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    I played an evil Swashbuckler once, with Korgan, Viconia, Edwin, Jaheira and Yoshimo, who was replaced by Sarevok later. So I played with a five-person party for a while. Jaheira sticking around with this bunch never did make sense to me. Her Neutral alignment is really just a requirement of the rules, since otherwise she'd be an abrasive Neutral Good. It was an unmodded game, so the swashbuckler wasn't really very good at anything, but I had fun anyway.

    And I wasn't aware the games had any real place in the Forgotten Realms chronology, such as it even is. Trying to tie Baldur's Gate and Icewind Dale together strikes me as a rather pointless endeavor as well.
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    Well, according to the wiki, Neverwinter Nights 2 takes place in the year 1374 DR, approximately 11 years before the Spellplague, and from what I'm seeing, Baldur's Gate takes place in the years 1368 and 1369...I assume Shadows and Hordes takes place approximately between 1372 and 1374...I'm not sure where Icewind Dale fits in this line...
    "Reach down into your heart and you'll find many reasons to fight. Survival. Honor. Glory. But what about those who feel it's their duty to protect the innocent? There you'll find a warrior savage enough to match any dragon, and in the end, they'll retain what the others won't. Their humanity."

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    Quote Originally Posted by Archpaladin Zousha View Post
    Icewind Dale: I shall probably get to this later, as it requires creating a whole party, though I DO know I'll be including a Paladin because of Pale Justice.
    If you're playing with Kits, Pale Justice is kind of redundant before you even leave the prologue area.

    Quote Originally Posted by Archpaladin Zousha View Post
    Well, according to the wiki, Neverwinter Nights 2 takes place in the year 1374 DR, approximately 11 years before the Spellplague, and from what I'm seeing, Baldur's Gate takes place in the years 1368 and 1369...I assume Shadows and Hordes takes place approximately between 1372 and 1374...I'm not sure where Icewind Dale fits in this line...
    Icewind Dale takes place approximately 90 years before Baldur's Gate.
    Icewind Dale 2 takes place 30 years after the first.
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    How do you mean? From what it looks like Pale Justice doesn't grant immunities like the kits do, it just does extra damage...or does one of the kits do extra damage or something?

    Either way, this changes things. Icewind Dale is where I'll start, then, and i think what I'll do is use Planescape Torment as a break before securing Icewind Dale 2...
    "Reach down into your heart and you'll find many reasons to fight. Survival. Honor. Glory. But what about those who feel it's their duty to protect the innocent? There you'll find a warrior savage enough to match any dragon, and in the end, they'll retain what the others won't. Their humanity."

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    Quote Originally Posted by Archpaladin Zousha View Post
    How do you mean? From what it looks like Pale Justice doesn't grant immunities like the kits do, it just does extra damage...
    Pale Justice grants immunity to Fear and Charm.
    Cavaliers are immune to both...Not to mention the bonus damage vs. some of the later bosses which was definitely not intended.

    That makes PJ just a +7 Long Sword. Aihonen is a Long Sword +5 (location is fixed, as long as you do a certain quest in the Prologue ). With Cavalier's damage resistance, you'll now have 50%+ resistance to, again, the later bosses' damage. Not to mention Bastard Swords. Sure, PJ might be the only +7 weapon in the game. Aihonen is supposed to make the final boss(es) easier, and represents a minor thing you did all the way back in the Prologue. Aihonen isn't for letting you win the game with a single character - which is exactly what it does do, on a Cavalier.

    But, by the time you're at the point in the game required to get it, the +3 to hit and damage over your other +4 weapons is fairly meaningless. The real bonus on PJ is the immunities. But, if you have access to Cavalier, Pale Justice just...Isn't that special. Which steers you directly into Aihonen for the final fights.

    Point is, if you're playing Icewind Dale, don't use Kits - for any class. And don't use Two-Weapon Fighting. Two-Weapon Fighting in the original IWD was only for Rangers, and if you had nothing in your off-hand (including shields), you only got 1 extra APR with your main hand weapon. That was it, and yet Cleric/Rangers were still among the best Classes anyway.


    Why is EE boring? Because it was never designed to be that easy.
    You may as well import Kits and TWF to BG1...Oh wait.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cheesegear View Post
    Point is, if you're playing Icewind Dale, don't use Kits - for any class. And don't use Two-Weapon Fighting. Two-Weapon Fighting in the original IWD was only for Rangers, and if you had nothing in your off-hand (including shields), you only got 1 extra APR with your main hand weapon. That was it, and yet Cleric/Rangers were still among the best Classes anyway.


    Why is EE boring? Because it was never designed to be that easy.
    You may as well import Kits and TWF to BG1...Oh wait.
    Alternatively play with a kit if thats what makes it interesting for you. The games are already easy enough to be beaten with a bad party composition anyway. There are already class combos that are broken in IWD and BG1, adding kits to that just adds variety to the broken combinations already in the game and can spice things up because they add a nice touch of class fantasy to the whole thing which can be more important to some people.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Inarius View Post
    Alternatively play with a kit if thats what makes it interesting for you.
    If your version of 'interesting' is 'super easy', then yes.
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    That's more reassuring to me than anything else. It means I can craft a party more for story than optimized to survive. The story is what I'm here for.

    Also, I've read that by the time MotB takes place Kelemvor has only been a god for 6 years?! Is that accurate?! If so, then things have been in SERIOUS turmoil in Faerun considering the Spellplague hits a little over a decade later! And what does that mean if your Kalach-Cha is a follower of Kelemvor, considering this is a short tenure as deity even by human standards!

    So I know I need to create a 6-person party for Icewind Dale. At the moment, I only know two what I really want:

    Human Paladin (mainly for Pale Justice, and only humans CAN be paladins so this is pretty much a lock)
    Halfling Fighter-Thief (Given what Cheesegear has said about that helmet and how they are awesome, I'm thinking that'd be fun to include. I'm just not sure how that gets built, and what weaponry such a character should go for?)

    Thank you all again for the advice!
    Last edited by Archpaladin Zousha; 2019-04-07 at 07:06 PM.
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    BlueKnightGuy

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    Quote Originally Posted by Archpaladin Zousha View Post
    That's more reassuring to me than anything else. It means I can craft a party more for story than optimized to survive. The story is what I'm here for.

    Also, I've read that by the time MotB takes place Kelemvor has only been a god for 6 years?! Is that accurate?! If so, then things have been in SERIOUS turmoil in Faerun considering the Spellplague hits a little over a decade later! And what does that mean if your Kalach-Cha is a follower of Kelemvor, considering this is a short tenure as deity even by human standards!

    So I know I need to create a 6-person party for Icewind Dale. At the moment, I only know two what I really want:

    Human Paladin (mainly for Pale Justice, and only humans CAN be paladins so this is pretty much a lock)
    Halfling Fighter-Thief (Given what Cheesegear has said about that helmet and how they are awesome, I'm thinking that'd be fun to include. I'm just not sure how that gets built, and what weaponry such a character should go for?)

    Thank you all again for the advice!
    While I cannot honestly say IWD is without a story, your party is not particularly involved in it beyond killing the bad guys as the plot dictates. The game is pretty much like Diablo 2 if it were made in the Infinity Engine - the game is intended so you can play the same party through the game repeatedly, finding different loot each time and gradually increasing your level to the cap. There is a plot happening, but it's set up so that it can be readily ignored if you aren't interested or already seen it. Your ranger will not scold you for taking a quest that involves killing animals. You won't find your fighter and thief trading friendly insults over beers in the local tavern (one would hope, at least, given that they're probably going to be the same person in your game). The paladin will not decide that one more bad pun from the evil sorcerer will be moral justification for murder. The yuan-ti priestess did not kill your bard's second niece thrice removed. Well, they can do all of that, but it'll be headcanon and not what's shown on the screen.

    NWN2 Storm of Zehir is a little like this, as well, as it focuses on the party and not the individuals, but each individual in that game gets a role to play. Faced with a trollish Ogre Mage, your bard with diplomacy can talk your way out of it, your wizard can dispel the illusions he's surrounded you in, or the NPC druid can talk logic circles around the ogre while casually suggesting that his dinosaur animal companion might fancy a snack right about now. IWD doesn't have this dimension. You usually have a reason to want every creature in this cave or temple extinct, but your choice is mostly just whether your ranger shoots it, your mage fries it, or the barbarian clobbers it.

    I'm not saying this to disparage IWD, mind. It's just not the same kind of game as the rest of the list and you should be aware of that walking in. Play the party you want, the game isn't particularly hard however you want to do it and the BG2 aspects do tilt the game to even easier, just keep in mind that the narrative is outward facing (why the villain needs to die) rather than inward facing (why your character in particular would want to kill them). Hope that makes sense.

    Planescape, which is IWD's mirror opposite, is definitely part of the same multiverse. BG2 has a few references, but largely just a beholder mentioning the spelljammer setting, and Haer'dalis as a planar traveler who casually refers to everyone on this plane as "primes", because that's typical plane-walker lingo. You'll never see Faerun in Planescape, though. That said, if you want an inward facing narrative, Planescape has no equal.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Archpaladin Zousha View Post
    So I know I need to create a 6-person party for Icewind Dale.
    As previously mentioned, you'll want a (Human) Paladin and (Half-Elf) Bard. Paladin Kits ruin the game, and Bard kits don't get the best ability in the game. So...No kits!

    Every other Character is going to want to be a Multi- or Dual-Class. Every Character. Because of the phenomenally high XP cap, there's almost no downside to Dual-Classing.
    So, let's go down the list...For the purposes of this list, I'm not going to differentiate between Dual-Classing and Multi-Classing. However, know that it's definitely advisable to run an all-Human party. However, that can be boring, especially if playing 'for fun'...

    Everything I say will be for the Complete Edition. If you want to deviate from this, just run any Kit you want, specialise in Two-Weapon Fighting.

    Fighter/Anything is a good PC, except for Cleric, because...
    Ranger/Cleric is perhaps the best class in the (CE) game. Which will solve your Cleric problem. So pick up a Druid?
    Thief/Mage is very good.

    So, at this point you should have...
    Human Paladin
    Human or Half-Elf Ranger/Cleric
    Halfling Fighter/Thief
    Half-Elf Bard (+10% Pickpocket!)

    The party is light on Mages and Clerics.
    Fighter/Druid is nice, as is (Elf) Fighter/Mage or Mage/Thief.

    Unfortunately, due to how massively useful Multi- and Dual-Classing is, races in IWD that aren't Humans or Half-Elves don't offer a whole lot. However, you could get lucky on your gear rolls, which means an Elf Fighter/Mage with Long Swords and Bows would be nice...F/M/T would also work.

    I think last I checked, the optimal party was...

    Human Paladin
    Human Fighter/Druid
    Human Ranger/Cleric
    Elf Fighter/Thief
    Human Thief/Mage
    Half-Elf Bard
    ...With alignments all over the place.

    ...But, I don't think you're looking to optimise. So just go with whatever you like. If you want to play with one of each race, that's cool. If you've got the four main roles (+ Bard) covered, your sixth slot can be anything you want. However, you can even not play with a sixth and level up even faster.

    At the end of the day, IWD isn't hard (but also, it shouldn't be too easy, either). As long as every character who can, is Dual'd or Multi'd, you're on the right path.
    Last edited by Cheesegear; 2019-04-08 at 11:59 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cheesegear View Post
    I think last I checked, the optimal party was...

    Human Paladin
    Human Fighter/Druid
    Human Ranger/Cleric
    Elf Fighter/Thief
    Human Thief/Mage
    Half-Elf Bard
    ...With alignments all over the place.

    ...But, I don't think you're looking to optimise. So just go with whatever you like. If you want to play with one of each race, that's cool. If you've got the four main roles (+ Bard) covered, your sixth slot can be anything you want. However, you can even not play with a sixth and level up even faster.

    At the end of the day, IWD isn't hard (but also, it shouldn't be too easy, either). As long as every character who can, is Dual'd or Multi'd, you're on the right path.
    I must be missing something. I thought multi-class was awesome because of the level cap allowing you to be 30/30/30 if you played it enough and enjoying the full benefit of all the classes, whereas dual-class was awesome in BG because it made more efficient use of the XP cap, allowing you to get the best balance of benefit and XP cost from a second class. A human Fighter/Druid or Ranger/Cleric would max out much faster with much less advantage from their martial class, unless you dual-classed at 20 or something. That said, I guess a human Fighter/Druid would just be a full druid with much broader access to weapons and gear while a human Ranger/Cleric would be a supreme divine caster. In Complete Addition, anyways, as I've said, Ranger Cleric requires an INI tweak to function like that in the enhanced edition. Thief/Mage works pretty darn well if you're allowing the Swashbuckler kit, but otherwise I don't see it bringing anything to the table that a fighter/mage wouldn't, especially given you've got a multiclass thief. I also don't see any shorties for the helm and I don't think you get HLAs even in the EE version...

    But, again, it really doesn't matter. The Order of the Stick could pull off this campaign*, so you don't really need to worry too much about optimization.
    *Who hasn't tried this? I'm actually curious.
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    Can I replace any of these with a dwarf? If only for equal Realms-folk representation?

    I am aware that the story in IWD is much less subtle/much more straightforward than other D&D games, and I have played Storm of Zehir, so I do know a bit of what to expect, but I really want to make a good headcanon.

    Also, am I right in my assesment that this takes place BEFORE the Time of Troubles, so some deities aren't there yet or stuff?
    Last edited by Archpaladin Zousha; 2019-04-08 at 07:30 PM.
    "Reach down into your heart and you'll find many reasons to fight. Survival. Honor. Glory. But what about those who feel it's their duty to protect the innocent? There you'll find a warrior savage enough to match any dragon, and in the end, they'll retain what the others won't. Their humanity."

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    Default Re: D&D Games: Enhanced Editions Master Playthrough?

    Quote Originally Posted by Archpaladin Zousha View Post
    Can I replace any of these with a dwarf? If only for equal Realms-folk representation?

    I am aware that the story in IWD is much less subtle/much more straightforward than other D&D games, and I have played Storm of Zehir, so I do know a bit of what to expect, but I really want to make a good headcanon.

    Also, am I right in my assesment that this takes place BEFORE the Time of Troubles, so some deities aren't there yet or stuff?
    Yeah you can replace several of them with a dwarf, that's just sort of the recommended best way to go. You could make it your fighter/thief, replace your fighter/druid with a fighter/cleric, or drop down from ranger/cleric to go fighter/cleric. Or just swap out your fighter/thief for any other class really since 2 thieves aren't super necessary.

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