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    Default Hearthstone 23: The Evil League of EVIL

    Welcome to twenty-third GitP thread for Hearthstone. For anyone who doesn't know, Hearthstone is a video card game from Blizzard, based on the Warcraft series. The game is free to play and available here, so if you're interested, give it a shot. You've got nothing to lose but your free time.

    For new players, something to be aware of is that there are a number of hidden "quests" you can complete which will give you free gold, dust, or even a pack. A complete list can be found here. Be aware that not quite all of those are ones you'll be able to complete quickly though.

    And here is a list of Playgrounders currently in the game, for both NA and EU servers:
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    Gandariel Ciabatta#2958
    Geno9999 Geno9999#1674
    Gluteus_Maximus RubiksCube#11427
    Hamste Theorules#1234
    Kish Grazzt#1417
    Lord Raziere Trizap#1729
    Nerocite JoeKage#1852
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    Zevox Zevox#1522

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    Gandariel Ciabatta#2958


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    aethernox ethernox#1948
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    Anxe GoCorral#1879
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    GAAD GAAD#1126
    Gaelbert SamHouston#1563
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    Gray Mage GrayMage#1723
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    Hamste Theorules#1234
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    Jaxzan Proditor Jaxzan#1878
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    Thanatos 51-50 Thanatos5150#1407
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    The Hellbug thehellbug#1216
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    Volthawk Volthawk#1214
    Weimann Weimann#2716
    Wraith Illusionist#2224
    Xiander Xiander#2814

    ------------------------------------------------
    So, final reveal of all the remaining Rise of Shadows cards happened today, and the full gallery is up. Thoughts on the many new cards:

    Spoiler: For space
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    Neutral
    Potion Vendor: Hey, a good healing card for those Druid healing synergies! And maybe for Priest Northshire nonsense. Much nicer to have this battlecry on a smaller minion than on the 3/3 for 3 it was previously on I think, especially for Priest Northshire shenanigans, might push this into seeing more play than that did.
    Toxfin: If Murlocs are good, this is too. As with every time they've printed more Murloc stuff, I'm just crossing my fingers that the resulting deck isn't good.
    Arcane Servant: River Crockolisk but an elemental. Even Elemental decks wouldn't run this. Filler.
    Dalaran Librarian: Neat, but the only deck I can imagine wanting it is Silence Priest, and I don't think that looks good enough at this point.
    Mana Resevoir: 2 mana, 0 attack, effect is just spell damage. Crap. Plus we saw this as a 3 mana demon with just +1 health before, and that saw no play, so yeah, definitely crap.
    Spellbook Binder: Eh, I doubt there's enough good spell damage cards or decks that want them to get this guy into constructed.
    Sunreaver Spy: Very strong secret synergy card, basically custom-made for Paladin, since they're the ones who can curve it out. Pretty good evidence that Secret Paladin will be a real thing.
    Arcane Watcher: Interesting that they let it attack if you have any spell damage, but spell damage cards generally aren't good enough to make that worth it, I think. Silence Priest might run it, if that works, but I'm inclined to think it won't.
    Faceless Rager: Might actually see play, honestly. A Handlock-like deck could get a lot of use out of something like this copying the high health of a Twilight Drake or Giant. Needs a specific deck like that which can get good, durable minions down early though, I think.
    Flight Master: Weird, probably bad.
    Hench-Clan Sneak: Mediocrity incarnate. Arena card, nothing more.
    Magic Carpet: Probably not good, but maybe somebody comes up with a deck that can abuse it somehow. I'd bet against it though.
    Portal Keeper: Probably not good, except that it does have great synergy with Plot Twist. If it sees play, I'd predict it's in exactly a Plot Twist-running Warlock deck.
    Proud Defender: Very nice taunt minion, the closest thing we got to a replacement for Tar Creeper. Probably not as good as that card, but I think there's every chance this guy sees a lot of play in Control decks.
    Soldier of Fortune: The drawback is probably too much for this to see play.
    Violet Spellsword: This might be playable, it becomes decent at 2 spells in your hand, above-average at 3+. You're probably really gunning to consistently have 4+ though to make it strong, and that seems iffy to me.
    Azerite Elemental: So its stats aren't good, and its effect is just spell damage, that doesn't even happen unless it survives a turn. Yeah, this looks pretty bad.
    Dalaran Crusader: Pack filler/arena card.
    Recurring Villain: Actually has potential, I'm just not sure what decks have enough buffs to justify running him. He does only need +1 attack to trigger though, so maybe Druid with their +1/+1 AoE effects? Seems a bit costly for Token Druid though.
    Sunreaver Warmage: Interesting. If Big Spell Mage were still a thing, this would have an obvious home there, but all of those cards are gone, so it's a theoretically good card in search of a deck that runs enough big spells for it to work. May or may not find it, I'm not sure right now.
    Eccentric Scribe: Not bad, but probably not constructed-worthy.
    Mad Summoner: Very strange card. Goes great with the new Warlock AoE/buff spell, but I think that may be too specific a combo to see play, and I struggle to think of what else you would do with it.
    Portal Overfiend: See Portal Keeper comments.
    Safeguard: Seemed to have potential at first glance, but upon reflection, it's basically worse Rotten Applebaum - +1 mana to turn the healing into a 0/5 taunt. Maybe Deathrattle Hunter sees enough value to having it around for Oblivitron that it runs it, but I'm skeptical even of that.
    Violet Warden: One of the better-statted spell damage minions we've ever seen, actually. Still probably falls short of seeing constructed play though.
    Underbelly Ooze: It's Grim Patron, but 2 health bigger and 2 mana more. Hard to completely discount it given that card's history, but the higher mana cost makes it harder to work with. We'll see if somebody finds a way to break it.
    Tunnel Blaster: That's not bad at all, actually. Reminds me of Primordial Drake, though the AoE being a deathrattle instead of a battlecry is definitely worse. Might still be playable though, especially if aggro is a concern.
    Heroic Innkeeper: Bigger Frostwolf Warlord is worse Frostwolf Warlord. Crap in constructed, but very good in that "all minions are 1/1 and cost 1" Brawl.
    Whirlwind Tempest: How many good windfury cards are there again? Oh, hardly any? And it's 8 mana, so you're not comboing it with anything ever? Yeah, this sucks.
    Burly Shovelfist: One of the better high-cost commons we've seen, may even verge on having a use in constructed (Rush Warrior?). I'd still lean against it, but there might be the off chance.

    Druid
    Blessing of the Ancients: On the one hand, this is +2 mana over Mark of the Lotus. On the other, Twinspell. May well enable Token Druid once again.

    Hunter
    Rapid Fire: Good card that probably goes in all Hunter decks. It's 4 "ping" cards for the price of 2, which is solid enough on its own, and could get scary with Vereesa Windrunner. A swing with her weapon sudden turns these into 4 mana deal 12 (plus the 2 from the weapon). One of the better Twinspell cards, I think.
    Ursatron: Solid card that almost surely goes into Deathrattle Hunter.
    Arcane Fletcher: Interesting. Very specific both in its trigger and what it draws you though - feels like it wants to be in a combo deck of some kind, but I don't know what that deck would be.
    Hunting Party: Probably too slow to see constructed play.

    Mage
    Magic Dart Frog: Flamewaker Lite is probably still good enough for Tempo Mage to run it. Would definitely be if it still shot twice per spell, once is definitely notably weaker than Flamewaker, but I'm still inclined to think it's enough to see play in that deck, if that deck works out at all.
    Kirin Tor Tricaster: I am not sure whether this sees play or not. It's mainly strong with Arcane Missiles and Shooting Star, but its drawback can be mitigated by Sorcerer's Apprentice. But it's also competing with the 4/3 spell damage +2 card, so unless you run both, that probably just beats it, I think.

    Paladin
    Mysterious Blade: I was actually watching the reveal stream, and let out an "F you" at the dev who remarked about how a 3/2 weapon would be too good to print without a conditional. Anyway though, yeah, Firey War Axe is back, but in Paladin for some godforsaken reason, and it needs secrets to work now. But secret on 1 into this on 2 is strong, so yeah, Secret Paladin will probably be a thing. I just hope it turns out more midrangey rather than aggro, so I might actually play it.

    Priest
    Hench-Clan Shadequill: For +2 health on Yeti you're getting Zombie Chow's drawback? Eh, much as Priest doesn't generally care about that, I'm still not sure that's worth it.
    Unsleeping Soul: We are back on pushing Silence Priest I see. Not particularly impressed by this one at the moment, I don't think it sees play, but if I'm underestimating that deck maybe it does.
    Convincing Infiltrator: Oh hey, a strong deathrattle for that 2-drop from earlier to copy! I don't think this alone will make that card playable, but this one just might be. Not totally sure, but the potential is there I think.

    Rogue
    Daring Escape: Eh, probably doesn't see play. Rogue has better ways to return minions to their hand already, is generally happy just returning one, and there's no extra upside here beyond returning multiple.
    Waggle Pick: One of the most solid weapon cards Rogue has ever been given. Likely to see play I think, it's just generally pretty good.

    Shaman
    Mutate: Eh, if Unstable Evolution wasn't seeing play outside of meme decks, I doubt this will either. Mostly exists for Hagatha's hero power to hand you.
    Soul of the Murloc: Half-cost Soul of the Forest is frightening. Probably strong enough to go into any more aggressive Shaman that comes into being for the next two years, definitely in any Murloc Shaman if that works out.
    Underbelly Angler: Frighteningly good, giving a Murloc deck much more staying power over the course of a game. This is the card that makes me worry Murloc Shaman will be a thing.
    Witch's Brew: Why isn't this echo? Is it limited to just repeating once, maybe? Odd if so. Probably a card that mostly exists for Hagatha, I think, unless Control Shaman really desperately needs healing.
    Scargill: Could be scary in the late-game, but since Murloc decks prefer not to get there, I'm not totally sure they'll want this guy, even if Murloc Shaman takes off.

    Warlock
    Impferno: Has potential in Demon Zoo, for sure. Not totally sure it makes the cut, or if Zoo wants to run enough demons for it, but will be tried.
    Darkest Hour: I guess the idea for this is that you run it to combo with Rafaam's Scheme? That's about the only potential I see to it, and that doesn't look strong enough for me to think it'll see play.
    Jumbo Imp: The "while this is in your hand" text kills it I think.

    Warrior
    Sweeping Strikes: Minions with this effect have never seen play, doubt this spell will either.
    Vicious Scraphound: My favorite card from this last batch of reveals, goes in Control Warrior no questions asked. Great little anti-aggro card, great synergy with Zilliax, good to get off Omega Assembly and Boom's hero power, just all-around solid for a control deck.
    Last edited by Zevox; 2019-09-23 at 08:36 PM.

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    Default Re: Hearthstone 23: The Evil League of EVIL

    I'm puzzled by "repeatable this turn." Have they decided to remove the Echo keyword after all?
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    "The really unforgivable acts are committed by calm men in beautiful green silk rooms, who deal death wholesale, by the shipload, without lust, or anger, or desire, or any redeeming emotion to excuse them but cold fear of some pretended future. But the crimes they hope to prevent in the future are imaginary. The ones they commit in the present--they are real." --Aral Vorkosigan

    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    This, in a nutshell.
    Yes, exactly.

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    Default Re: Hearthstone 23: The Evil League of EVIL

    Quote Originally Posted by Kish View Post
    I'm puzzled by "repeatable this turn." Have they decided to remove the Echo keyword after all?
    My only guess on that is that it can only be repeated once. Otherwise, yeah, should have just said Echo, doesn't make sense that they'd leave that off.
    Toph Pony avatar by Dirtytabs. Thanks!

    "When I was ten, I read fairy tales in secret and would have been ashamed if I had been found doing so. Now that I am fifty, I read them openly. When I became a man, I put away childish things, including the fear of childishness and the desire to be very grown up." -C.S. Lewis

    "We each decide our own sense of right and wrong. The rest, I leave to my sword." - Yuri Lowell, Tales of Vesperia

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    Default Re: Hearthstone 23: The Evil League of EVIL

    Quote Originally Posted by Zevox View Post
    My only guess on that is that it can only be repeated once. Otherwise, yeah, should have just said Echo, doesn't make sense that they'd leave that off.
    "Repeatable this turn." is what Unstable Evolution uses, so it shouldn't be limited to one repeat.

    Of course the only consistent bit of Hearthstone is the lack of consistency, so...
    Quote Originally Posted by Pickford View Post
    I don't understand your point. Why does it matter what I said?

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    Default Re: Hearthstone 23: The Evil League of EVIL

    Aww, I was too slow: I liked Geno's "EVIL: Every Villain Is Legendary"

    Anyone know why Witch's Brew doesn't just have Echo instead of the clunky repeatable this turn language?

    EDIT: Man, I'm really slow
    Last edited by Psyren; 2019-04-03 at 05:09 PM.

    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
    Quote Originally Posted by gogogome View Post
    Cheers to Psyren the MVP "naysayer".
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    Default Re: Hearthstone 23: The Evil League of EVIL

    This thread title has a PhD in horribleness.
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    Default Re: Hearthstone 23: The Evil League of EVIL

    I assume it's to not have any interactions with other cards that might have effects with 'echo' cards.

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    Default Re: Hearthstone 23: The Evil League of EVIL

    I am on mobile right now but I cannot wait to get home to properly Express my hype for silence priest coming back.
    If my text is blue, I'm being sarcastic.But you already knew that, right?


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    Default Re: Hearthstone 23: The Evil League of EVIL

    Quote Originally Posted by Resileaf View Post
    I assume it's to not have any interactions with other cards that might have effects with 'echo' cards.
    There's only one such card though: the Rogue 4 mana 3/5 that gets +1/+1 whenever an echo card is played. Which has never seen play, and isn't even in the same class as Witch's Brew, so I sincerely doubt they're concerned about that.
    Toph Pony avatar by Dirtytabs. Thanks!

    "When I was ten, I read fairy tales in secret and would have been ashamed if I had been found doing so. Now that I am fifty, I read them openly. When I became a man, I put away childish things, including the fear of childishness and the desire to be very grown up." -C.S. Lewis

    "We each decide our own sense of right and wrong. The rest, I leave to my sword." - Yuri Lowell, Tales of Vesperia

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    Default Re: Hearthstone 23: The Evil League of EVIL

    Quote Originally Posted by Zevox View Post
    There's only one such card though: the Rogue 4 mana 3/5 that gets +1/+1 whenever an echo card is played. Which has never seen play, and isn't even in the same class as Witch's Brew, so I sincerely doubt they're concerned about that.
    Also, it would truly be amazingly lame if they were deliberately doing, "This card has Echo, but we're not saying Echo because we don't want it to buff cards that get buffs from Echo cards."

    (Next set: "This card ties up two of your mana crystals the turn after you play it, but it's not Overload.")
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    "The really unforgivable acts are committed by calm men in beautiful green silk rooms, who deal death wholesale, by the shipload, without lust, or anger, or desire, or any redeeming emotion to excuse them but cold fear of some pretended future. But the crimes they hope to prevent in the future are imaginary. The ones they commit in the present--they are real." --Aral Vorkosigan

    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    This, in a nutshell.
    Yes, exactly.

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    Default Re: Hearthstone 23: The Evil League of EVIL

    I am home now! So before I gush and get into the new cards, the thing with Echo is it was a keyword exclusive to the Witchwood expansion. At the time they released that expansion they decided it was a one-set thing, which is why similar cards from the past (such as Unstable Evolution) did not get updated. As a result any new cards released after the set also will not have Echo.

    It's the same reason even though we've seen some revisiting of Joust-style mechanics, none of them have the Joust Keyword.

    The reasoning is a bit weird, but their logic is they don't want to have a bunch of keywords that only see use on a handful of cards and make that extra overhead a new player needs to learn to figure out what cards do. So it is far more common to see keywords left by the wayside than integrated into the game more fully (such as Rush and Lifesteal).
    If my text is blue, I'm being sarcastic.But you already knew that, right?


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    Default Re: Hearthstone 23: The Evil League of EVIL

    So gushing time! First, Silence Priest! I am fairly sure I've talked about this before, but this was my all time favorite deck of all time. It started out as "haha unicorn priest" back in Karazan trying to make the forums-proclaimed worst card ever work in a deck. Then in Ungoro it became actually viable. It is a huge part of the reason I've got around 700 wins on Priest. I love the game winning tempo aspect of it. I love the combo potential of it. I love the meme-ness of it. Everything about it is great.

    And I actually think I made a post an expansion or two back about what would be needed to make it make a comeback. My wish list was basically hugely overstatted minions with drawbacks other than "Can't Attack", so if you don't draw the silence, you can still make the decision to use the card. And we got that in spades with this reveal. Give your opponent a coin when you attack is fantastic. Can't attack without spell power is pretty great as well, since it gives an alternative way to proc (though I don't know that Priest has any good options for spellpower at the moment). In fact, let's look at all the new silence priest support:


    Dalaran Librarian - 2 Mana 2/3 Common Neutral Minion - Silence Adjacent Minions

    That is a solid body that can activate up to 2 of your minions. Play it early game for tempo if you don't have anything better, save it to enable something later otherwise. This is great.

    Arcane Watcher - 3 Mana 5/6 Rare Neutral Minion - Can't Attack unless you have spell damage

    This is the one I am least sure about from the bunch, because we don't really have a lot of spell damage in priest (though there is a lot of neutral spell damage support I saw in the dump)

    Hench-Clan Shadequill - 4 Mana 4/7 Common Priest Minion - Deathrattle: Restore 5 health to the enemy hero

    This one is honestly good enough to see play outside of silence priest. 5 health to your opponent isn't a huge draw back, and the stat line is very competitive for its mana.

    Unsleeping Soul - 4 Mana Common Priest Spell - Silence a Friendly Minion, then summon a copy of it

    This is the new purify of the set. But instead of drawing a card, you get a bonus minion! Turn 3 drop Watcher into turn 4 drop this for 10/12 of stats with no drawback on Turn 4. That is potentially game winning in the early game.

    Soldier of Fortune - 4 Mana 5/6 Common Neutral Minion - Whenever this minion attacks give your opponent a coin.

    This is another one I really love because the draw back is a decision. Every time you attack you choose if it is worth that attack to give your opponent a mana. In some matchups/situations it can be the same as "Can't Attack". But in other situations, if you didn't get one of your silences and need to make that trade to stay in the game, it's totally open to you. The design of this card is perfect in my opinion.





    For other cards I am excited about from the Reveal/Card dump, here's some highlights (I'm not going to transcribe all of the last 50, someone else can if they really want to)

    Impferno - 3 Mana Rare Warlock Spell - Give your Demons +1 Attack, deal 1 damage to enemy minions
    Mad Summoner - 6 Mana 4/4 Rare Neutral Minion - Fill each players board with 1/1 Imps

    These two together are pretty awesome. 9 mana flood the board with 2/1 imps... actually on second thought that's a 2 card build your own Onyxia with a slight buff to the whelps but a 4/4 instead of an 8/8. Not as great as I thought when I first saw Mad Summoner.

    Impferno is probably still pretty good though as a board buff and board clear in one card.


    Blessing of the Ancients - 3 Mana Common Druid Spell - Twinspell. Give your minions +1/+1

    So Remember I was saying Token Druid needed one more board buff to become viable but I didn't think we'd see it this set? Well here we are. With effectively 4 more to slot into each deck. Yeah. Token Druid is going to be a thing. 3 mana is expensive, but if you're hitting at least 4 minions it's worth it. And token druid is going to have -so- many ways to reload the board. This is going to be great.

    Magic Dart Frog - 3 Mana 1/3 Common Mage Minion - After you cast a spell, deal 1 damage to a random enemy minion

    I feel like this solidifies the tiny spell mage archetype we've seen strung along. It's nowhere near as good as Flamewaker, but Flamewaker was broken. This is absolutely good enough to see play and will be probably Mage's best anti-aggro tool for a while.

    Sweeping Strikes - 2 Mana Rare Warrior Spell - Give a minion "Also damages minions next to whomever this attacks"

    Okay so I know my main gush was over Silence Priest, but this card right here? Oh my gosh. If there was ANY doubt Tempo Warrior was going to be a thing, this eliminates it for me. This plus any rush minion is basically "Remove 3 minions from your opponent's board". Use it on Akali? Remove 3 minions from your opponents board, draw 3 rush minions and give them all +5/+5. Use it on Zilliax? Get to heal for 9, or more if you magnetize first. This effect is ridiculously powerful and has always been held back by being limited to weak minions without initiative. Getting it as a buff you can apply to whatever changes everything. This card by itself will define Tempo Warrior for the next 2 years. And sneaky blizzard tried to hide it in the card dump. Hah, not fooling me!
    If my text is blue, I'm being sarcastic.But you already knew that, right?


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    Default Re: Hearthstone 23: The Evil League of EVIL

    Quote Originally Posted by Kish View Post
    Also, it would truly be amazingly lame if they were deliberately doing, "This card has Echo, but we're not saying Echo because we don't want it to buff cards that get buffs from Echo cards."

    (Next set: "This card ties up two of your mana crystals the turn after you play it, but it's not Overload.")
    Agreed.

    Quote Originally Posted by Seerow View Post
    I am home now! So before I gush and get into the new cards, the thing with Echo is it was a keyword exclusive to the Witchwood expansion. At the time they released that expansion they decided it was a one-set thing, which is why similar cards from the past (such as Unstable Evolution) did not get updated. As a result any new cards released after the set also will not have Echo.
    [...]
    The reasoning is a bit weird, but their logic is they don't want to have a bunch of keywords that only see use on a handful of cards and make that extra overhead a new player needs to learn to figure out what cards do. So it is far more common to see keywords left by the wayside than integrated into the game more fully (such as Rush and Lifesteal).
    If true, I have to say I think that is a very dumb reason. It's easy to learn what keywords mean, just mouse over the card, and none are complicated, Echo included. And once you know what they are, just using them saves you time and makes understanding the cards that much easier. Plus in this set they seem to have made a point of bringing back a few previously one-expansion mechanics, with Omega Devastator and Unidentified Contract.

    The more confusing thing is surely referring to the same mechanic in two different ways on different cards.

    Quote Originally Posted by Seerow View Post
    It's the same reason even though we've seen some revisiting of Joust-style mechanics, none of them have the Joust Keyword.
    Fun fact: Joust was never a keyword. It was a fan shorthand for the mechanic, since the first cards revealed that used it had "Joust" in their names (Tuskarr Jouster and Master Jouster, IIRC), and it was explained as a card game way to mimic jousting. It could have been made a keyword, but for whatever reason they never assigned it one.
    Last edited by Zevox; 2019-04-03 at 08:24 PM.
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    "We each decide our own sense of right and wrong. The rest, I leave to my sword." - Yuri Lowell, Tales of Vesperia

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    Default Re: Hearthstone 23: The Evil League of EVIL

    And "Echo" is just such an intuitive keyword, too! Honestly one of their better ones. I'm also disappointed in the notion that they wouldn't try and continue to use it; it's a very strong mechanic. I feel like they really should have kept using it, the way they kept using Discover.
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    Unless everyone's been lying to me and the next bunch of episodes are The Great Divide II, The Great Divide III, Return to the Great Divide, and Bride of the Great Divide, in which case I hate you all and I'm never touching Avatar again.

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    Default Re: Hearthstone 23: The Evil League of EVIL

    Quote Originally Posted by Zevox View Post
    If true, I have to say I think that is a very dumb reason.
    Yes, that's incredibly stupid. Aside from the fact that we wouldn't be having this discussion if the Echo mechanic wasn't still on cards being introduced, if they didn't want it to carry forward, why ever make it a keyword at all instead of just sticking "repeatable this turn" on all the cards that, as it is, use the Echo keyword?
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    "The really unforgivable acts are committed by calm men in beautiful green silk rooms, who deal death wholesale, by the shipload, without lust, or anger, or desire, or any redeeming emotion to excuse them but cold fear of some pretended future. But the crimes they hope to prevent in the future are imaginary. The ones they commit in the present--they are real." --Aral Vorkosigan

    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    This, in a nutshell.
    Yes, exactly.

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    Default Re: Hearthstone 23: The Evil League of EVIL

    Quote Originally Posted by Seerow View Post
    Magic Dart Frog - 3 2 Mana 1/3 Common Mage Minion - After you cast a spell, deal 1 damage to a random enemy minion

    I feel like this solidifies the tiny spell mage archetype we've seen strung along. It's nowhere near as good as Flamewaker, but Flamewaker was broken. This is absolutely good enough to see play and will be probably Mage's best anti-aggro tool for a while.
    Dart Frog is 2 mana, not 3 mana. If it was 3 mana, I wouldn't consider it, and I tried to make a Vex Crow deck work back in Witchwood. I am going to make that deck again for this expansion, but still. At 2 mana, it brings to my mind Knife Juggler and Mana Wyrm. Differences being that Dart Frog can only target minions with its effect, which along with it's defensive body, yeah I agree, this is going to be Vex Crow/Tiny Spell Mage's best answer to an Aggro vs. Aggro matchup. Playable, but won't carry the deck on it's back.

    Soul of the Murloc:
    ...DEAR GOD, CRAFT THIS GOLDEN, because I for one welcome our new Murloc mrrglords! The fact that this is 1) cheaper than the comparable Primal Talismans and Soul of the Forest, and 2) spawns a Token Minion with a relevant tribe: Murloc. While we will be losing a lot of good murlocs with the rotation of Un'Goro, Warleaders and Coldlight Seers are Classic, and Shaman in particular can use their new Scargil and/or Underbelly Angler with Ghost Light Angler from Witchwood for late game boardfill. This also opens the door for Murloc Shaman to make use of Token spawning cards that normally wouldn't work with Murloc buffs, including Shaman's own Hero Power, Violet Teacher, and Lackeys. It's not a mistake that Shaman gets a Murloc minion that also adds a Lackey to your hand.
    Last edited by Geno9999; 2019-04-04 at 12:43 AM. Reason: added a space between numbers for clarity
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    Default Re: Hearthstone 23: The Evil League of EVIL

    Ah, the smell of a new thread.

    To answer on the Echo discussion: Blizzard has clearly said that they won't reuse keywords.
    Therefore, Echo won't be seen again as a keyword outside its native expansion. (Reasoning: one year from now, Witch brew might be the only card in standard with that keyword. It's useless to have people learn a keyword for just one card)

    Anyways, I'll just copy paste my previous message:

    So, a few days ago I was asking suggestions on which cards to include in our rating-guessing game, and someone suggested to simply put all class legendaries.

    Therefore, without further ado, here's the Rise of Shadows rating form!

    As always, everyone's welcome to join and try to predict how good the cards will be... especially you lurkers

    Ratings are "Trump ratings", as in, the final validation will be the "Trump reviews Trump reviews" of this expansion (and there's a description at the start of the form).

    Winner gets... well, bragging rights!

    The form will be open until the expansion is officially out!
    Last edited by Gandariel; 2019-04-04 at 12:48 AM.

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    Default Re: Hearthstone 23: The Evil League of EVIL

    Quote Originally Posted by Gandariel View Post
    To answer on the Echo discussion: Blizzard has clearly said that they won't reuse keywords.
    ...Really? Because I'm pretty sure plenty have been re-used. Lifesteal in particular springs to mind. Rush looks like it's going forward as well.

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    Default Re: Hearthstone 23: The Evil League of EVIL

    Those weren't expansion-specific keywords.

    They are keeping Rush, Lifesteal, etc because they want to keep printing cards with those abilities for the foreseeable future.

    They printed Echo cards in just one expansion, and they are printing one more right now, with no explicit intention on doing more.

    Thing is, if they keep the keyword they force people to memorize it, and you can't have too many. With the rotation, it's also pointless to keep only one Echo card in the game for a year and have the keyword just for that.

    It's also worth noting that "repeatable this turn" is super simple wording, whereas overkill or Twinspell for example would be too complex to write without the keyword.
    Quote Originally Posted by actual quote from this forum
    So yeah. your wrong.
    Check out Camp Archimedes, a (slightly homebrew) mercenary camp full of interesting units. A great addition to any campaign (in my very biased opinion)

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    Default Re: Hearthstone 23: The Evil League of EVIL

    The thing is, you don't need to memorize the keywords - you can hover over the card to get them explained to you.
    Quote Originally Posted by Pickford View Post
    I don't understand your point. Why does it matter what I said?

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    Default Re: Hearthstone 23: The Evil League of EVIL

    Yes, but it's still Blizzard's decision, they stated it more than once (and proved it by printing Witch's brew).

    In other news, I'm very conflicted about some of the legendaries up for discussion. I'll post detailed ratings when I can.
    Secret paladin looks sick.
    Quote Originally Posted by actual quote from this forum
    So yeah. your wrong.
    Check out Camp Archimedes, a (slightly homebrew) mercenary camp full of interesting units. A great addition to any campaign (in my very biased opinion)

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    Default Re: Hearthstone 23: The Evil League of EVIL

    Game devs famously have a very poor opinion of their players.

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    Default Re: Hearthstone 23: The Evil League of EVIL

    Quote Originally Posted by Zevox View Post
    Welcome to twenty-second GitP thread for Hearthstone.
    the twenty-second thread, Hearthstone 23. Hmmmm.
    Quote Originally Posted by Celestia View Post
    The British conquered the world in search of spices and then decided to use none of them.

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    Default Re: Hearthstone 23: The Evil League of EVIL

    I for one am ready for the rotation.

    I think my last ~12 games have been about 8 Odd Mages for some godforsaken reason. Please get rid of Baku sooner.

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    Default Re: Hearthstone 23: The Evil League of EVIL

    I had my first encounter with Mechathun druid recently, down at rank 24. Now i know why people hate it.
    Quote Originally Posted by Red Fel, on quest rewards View Post
    "Is a stack of ten pancakes too many pancakes to give to the party, even if most of them fell on the floor and one or two were stepped on? I wanted to give my party pancakes as a reward but I'm unsure if it's too much. The pancakes are also laced with blowfish poison so the party would have to get an antitoxin before they could eat the ones which weren't pulverized by shoes."

    I don't think anyone would want those pancakes even if you paid them to eat them.

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    Default Re: Hearthstone 23: The Evil League of EVIL

    Quote Originally Posted by Seerow View Post
    Sweeping Strikes - 2 Mana Rare Warrior Spell - Give a minion "Also damages minions next to whomever this attacks"

    Okay so I know my main gush was over Silence Priest, but this card right here? Oh my gosh. If there was ANY doubt Tempo Warrior was going to be a thing, this eliminates it for me. This plus any rush minion is basically "Remove 3 minions from your opponent's board". Use it on Akali? Remove 3 minions from your opponents board, draw 3 rush minions and give them all +5/+5. Use it on Zilliax? Get to heal for 9, or more if you magnetize first. This effect is ridiculously powerful and has always been held back by being limited to weak minions without initiative. Getting it as a buff you can apply to whatever changes everything. This card by itself will define Tempo Warrior for the next 2 years. And sneaky blizzard tried to hide it in the card dump. Hah, not fooling me!
    I think my favorite use of this is on Darius Crowley (which may be just because I opened a golden one at witch wood opening and I'd really like that deck to work). 7 mana 8/8 or 10/10 plus board clear, and able to threaten to gain +4/4 ish each turn. Or just swing face for 10. It could force the enemy to drop a board wipe just to get rid of it if they have no silence or hard removal because it's 'that' snowbally.

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    Default Re: Hearthstone 23: The Evil League of EVIL

    Quote Originally Posted by Gandariel View Post
    Yes, but it's still Blizzard's decision, they stated it more than once (and proved it by printing Witch's brew).
    While it's probably for simplicity, I wonder if "repeatable this turn" interacts differently than echo with cards that queue off of spells you've played this turn (like Krag'wa) so the difference might be meaningful in that regard.

    Quote Originally Posted by The Glyphstone View Post
    I had my first encounter with Mechathun druid recently, down at rank 24. Now i know why people hate it.
    It's floating around at various levels. What's annoying is that the Hakkar druid deck looks almost identical, but they play slightly differently and don't get countered quite the same way (with Hakkar you want to kill everything else they put out and flood their board, with mecha'thun, you sometimes don't want to give them ways to kill off their own cards).
    School Fox by Atlur

    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    Anarion's right on the money here.
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    Default Re: Hearthstone 23: The Evil League of EVIL

    Quote Originally Posted by Resileaf View Post
    Game devs famously have a very poor opinion of their players.
    one for which there is in fact a fair bit of justification. the player base is large, there's a lot of idiots out there, so there's bound to be some in the playerbase.. also, you want to make things easy for the more casual users (who're also far less likely to provide feedback). And it's not like this is a new topic that needs figuring out; how to address this exact issue in ccgs has been looked at extensively for a long time now.
    people who post on forums about a game are usually far from typical players.
    A neat custom class for 3.5 system
    http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=94616

    A good set of benchmarks for PF/3.5
    https://rpgwillikers.wordpress.com/2...y-the-numbers/

    An alternate craft point system I made for 3.5
    http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showt...t-Point-system

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    Default Re: Hearthstone 23: The Evil League of EVIL

    Quote Originally Posted by Gandariel View Post
    Those weren't expansion-specific keywords.
    They were introduced by expansions; Frozen Throne and Witchwood respectively.

    If you make a keyword and want to keep using a mechanic, you should keep using that keyword.

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    Default Re: Hearthstone 23: The Evil League of EVIL

    Quote Originally Posted by Requizen View Post
    I for one am ready for the rotation.

    I think my last ~12 games have been about 8 Odd Mages for some godforsaken reason. Please get rid of Baku sooner.
    The Even/Odd thing seems to have really gotten out of hand. I'm counting my blessings when I don't see that start of game effect, because it's rampant in ranked right now. Odd Mage. Odd Warrior. Odd Paladin. Odd Rogue. Even Paladin. Evenlock. Even Shaman.

    And when it's not any of those, it's midrange Hunter.

    Just...get me out of this meta. Please. While there's a couple of fast decks on the horizon, I don't think they're anywhere near as fast or lethal as the ones currently running around.

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