The Order of the Stick: Utterly Dwarfed
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  1. - Top - End - #1201
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    Default Re: Hearthstone 23: The Evil League of EVIL

    Quote Originally Posted by DaedalusMkV View Post
    From what I've seen:

    Demons are trash. They can be solid in the midgame with the juggler guy, but they just don't have the scaling potential and unit spawning of the other tribes to make up for it. Imp Gang Boss is no Security Rover, and Mal'Ganis comes in at tier 5 and really doesn't do enough to get you into the game unless he's golden. You might win with Demons if everyone else is fighting over the other tribes and you get to go nuts with them, but overall they just can't keep up with the rest. The best Demon in the game is Amalgam, IMO.
    Demons I've noticed seem to be really good in the early game, as both Voidwalkers and Vulgar Hommunculus are better statted over other Tier 1 minions, other than Wrath Weaver and Micro Machine but those two need to wind up. I do agree that Imp Gang Boss is pretty lackluster, seems to get one-shot too often, and there's only Nathrezim Overseers and Crystalweavers that can buff them.

    Now that I'm looking at the minion list, wow, no wonder Mechs are dominating, they have a handful of minions at every tier up to 4 so there's plenty of options if you take Millicent, and they obviously have their own unique buff keyword. Mechs do have a somewhat weak tier 5-6: Mechano-Egg summoning an 8/8 sounds scary until you see everyone in the top 4 tossing 30/30 minions around. Sneed's has a pretty broad deathrattle so it's bad for pure Mech drafts. Only Foereaper would be a 100% pickup, but even then it's not a capstone minion like Junkbot or Mama Bear. On paper, this would be a weakness, but the reality is that Mech Builders can just camp at Tavern Tier 4 for the majority of the game to find Junkbot and the cards to support it such as Menacing Menace or Security Rover.
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    Default Re: Hearthstone 23: The Evil League of EVIL

    Demons don't seem so suited for a tribal build; they're more of a whatever happens to come your way build where you pick a few good ones, and maybe you happen to end up kinda tribal by accident.

    Lightfang's are awesome, being able to pick one up is a great power accumulator if you have enough diversity.

    Lately I've been trending toward tavern upgrading earlier at the expense of some health. The sooner I get started on a high end set of guys the better for long-term wins. Of course, even with higher tier taverns you can end up doing a lot of rerolling trying to find something useful, at least once your board is full.

    I've been binging playing; done maybe 15 games of battleground so far. it's been fun exploring the mode and trying different things.

    oh, it's also been nice listening to the music they used; haven't heard some of those in a loooong time.
    Last edited by zlefin; 2019-11-14 at 08:28 PM.
    A neat custom class for 3.5 system
    http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=94616

    A good set of benchmarks for PF/3.5
    https://rpgwillikers.wordpress.com/2...y-the-numbers/

    An alternate craft point system I made for 3.5
    http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showt...t-Point-system

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    Default Re: Hearthstone 23: The Evil League of EVIL

    Battlegrounds is pretty fun!

    My only complaint so far is that the strategy is kinda simple: pick a tribe and get the OP cards for it. (Or the one build with multiple tribes)

    Like, beasts that keep summoning and buffing, Demons with the guy that shoots every time one dies plus Voidlord, Mechs with Junkbot, and so on. Murlocs are also strong but they feel like they become bad in the late game, where everyone gets their stupid OP stuff.

    Also, Shudderwock Pogo hopper is pretty fun: I lost the first few rounds, then just trampled everyone with 30/30 up to 70/70 minions.
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    Default Re: Hearthstone 23: The Evil League of EVIL

    If I get hold of a divine shield, poison, taunt amalgam (or two) with a cave hydra or the mech reaper to take away divine shield then that seems to be winning more often than not. In fact a lot send to rest on an early amalgam for me.
    I've tried single tribe build and not gotten very far, can't quite get the beasts to spawn in the right order, outpace other mech decks or get the demons to work at all.

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    Default Re: Hearthstone 23: The Evil League of EVIL

    Quote Originally Posted by Gandariel View Post
    Battlegrounds is pretty fun!

    My only complaint so far is that the strategy is kinda simple: pick a tribe and get the OP cards for it. (Or the one build with multiple tribes)
    Basically, yeah. Being the first person in the match to pick up a Lightfang Enforcer or Mama Bear is huge, or getting 2-3 Junkbots with the right combination of mechs. And of course Amalgams, which everyone is looking for every time. It feels like winning frequently just comes down to whether you get offered one of those powerful build-around cards early enough or not. You can increase your odds of it by trying to aggressively tavern up, so that you get to the tavern tiers with those minions before anyone else can try to claim them, but then you're also risking taking a lot of damage in the process, so if it doesn't get very quick payoff you might just die for trying.

    It would be nice to see a few more viable strategies too. Right now it feels like the big three are Mechs, Beasts, and Menagerie, with Demons and Murlocs needing a small miracle to come together right (Demons need a lot of high-end minions plus Soul Juggler, Murlocs need to get Divine Shield + Poisonous, and ideally Windfury and a bunch of health, from Gentle Megasaurs), and other options being quite hard to make work as well as the more straightforward tribal ones (i.e. Pogo Hopper with Shudderwock, or Deathrattle with Baron Rivendare).

    Hopefully when the new set releases they'll add a bunch of Dragons and synergy cards for those to the mode at the very least - Zoobot and Menagerie Magician currently can only hit Nightmare Amalgam with their third buff due to the absence of other Dragons.

    Also, hope they keep tweaking some of the heroes. The change to Mukla was a good move I think, but Toki feels perhaps over-nerfed, and Jaraxxus is still weak (though maybe just adding better Demons or lowering the tavern tier needed for the current good ones could fix him); meanwhile basically every lobby has someone playing Millificent, Nefarian, and The Curator, and often has AF Kay and the Rat King, because those ones are just obviously strong. I don't even necessarily think those five should be nerfed, but it would be nice to see more buffed up to their level. Maybe make Lich Bai'zen's hero power do only 2 damage to her instead of 3, or make Jaraxxus' hero power a passive like Millificent's. Maybe Shudderwock's hero power could cost 1, or Pyramad's hero power could target who it buffs rather than being random.
    Last edited by Zevox; 2019-11-16 at 12:10 PM.
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    Default Re: Hearthstone 23: The Evil League of EVIL

    For replacement Tavern Brawl, had a bit of fun stomping around with a Hunter deck of Springpaw, Crackling Razormaw, and Scavenging Hyena. Honestly built it because I had the Play 12 Beasts quest, but it just snowballs from turn 1. The hardest match I had was a Mill Druid with Coldlight Oracle, Naturalize, and Innervate, because they kept Naturalizing the Hyena, but even then once I got Can't Be Targeted Adaptation from the Crackling Razormaw it was over.
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    Default Re: Hearthstone 23: The Evil League of EVIL

    Pogo-Hopper + Shadow Step + Daring Escape is hilariously broken. The games are fast enough that I hit the 10g/3 wins cap for the first time today, most people are either dead or have conceded by turn 3, 4 if I drew really badly. Worst matchup is also Druid mill, but you can still win if they don't have a Naturalize for every Pogo. Mirror is basically determined by whoever had the better starting hand, with some favor towards whoever went second.

    Does anyone know any resources for getting better at arena? I want to get better at it since the high-win rewards are so good for a mostly f2p player like myself. Every time I try it though, I tend to get stomped pretty hard, went 0-3 earlier today. The best I've ever done is 5 wins.
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  8. - Top - End - #1208
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    Default Re: Hearthstone 23: The Evil League of EVIL

    Quote Originally Posted by Stevesciguy View Post
    Pogo-Hopper + Shadow Step + Daring Escape is hilariously broken. The games are fast enough that I hit the 10g/3 wins cap for the first time today, most people are either dead or have conceded by turn 3, 4 if I drew really badly. Worst matchup is also Druid mill, but you can still win if they don't have a Naturalize for every Pogo. Mirror is basically determined by whoever had the better starting hand, with some favor towards whoever went second.

    Does anyone know any resources for getting better at arena? I want to get better at it since the high-win rewards are so good for a mostly f2p player like myself. Every time I try it though, I tend to get stomped pretty hard, went 0-3 earlier today. The best I've ever done is 5 wins.
    I listen to the Lightforged Podcast, which is pretty good, and ranges between talking about fundamentals, new card tier ratings, and the current meta, depending on what's going on that week.

    That being said the current arena meta is pretty bad, and might not be the best time to try learning. If you want to keep trying anyway, try to pick Paladin first if it's available, if not Warlock. You can use either the Lightforged tier list or the Heartharena companion to help decide what to draft, since they got rid of buckets drafting is generally as simple as "see a good card, pick a good card" with only a handful of picks per draft having meaningful choice involved.
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    Default Re: Hearthstone 23: The Evil League of EVIL

    There are programs that scores card choices in arena using statistics and suggests good draft picks (I think heartharena is the most common though I don't use any of these types of programs). Also a deck tracker is really useful as you most likely won't know all the outs in your deck off by heart.

    Also watch arena players (particularly Kripp) if you aren't already. They can give good tips for arena and the game in general.
    Last edited by Hamste; 2019-11-17 at 08:13 PM.
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    Default Re: Hearthstone 23: The Evil League of EVIL

    Quote Originally Posted by Seerow View Post
    I listen to the Lightforged Podcast, which is pretty good, and ranges between talking about fundamentals, new card tier ratings, and the current meta, depending on what's going on that week.

    That being said the current arena meta is pretty bad, and might not be the best time to try learning. If you want to keep trying anyway, try to pick Paladin first if it's available, if not Warlock. You can use either the Lightforged tier list or the Heartharena companion to help decide what to draft, since they got rid of buckets drafting is generally as simple as "see a good card, pick a good card" with only a handful of picks per draft having meaningful choice involved.
    Alright, thank you, I'll check out lightforge. Out of curiosity, what makes an arena meta good or bad?

    Quote Originally Posted by Hamste View Post
    There are programs that scores card choices in arena using statistics and suggests good draft picks (I think heartharena is the most common though I don't use any of these types of programs). Also a deck tracker is really useful as you most likely won't know all the outs in your deck off by heart.
    Unfortunately, I'm mobile-bound right now, and it doesn't seem that there are any apps that function like Heartharena does. I tried using the Heartharena website, but it doesn't seem to function on a mobile browser. I do use arcane tracker, though.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hamste View Post
    Also watch arena players (particularly Kripp) if you aren't already. They can give good tips for arena and the game in general.
    Yeah, that's part of the problem. I've been watching Kripp for years, and apparently have picked nothing up
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    Default Re: Hearthstone 23: The Evil League of EVIL

    Quote Originally Posted by Stevesciguy View Post
    Alright, thank you, I'll check out lightforge. Out of curiosity, what makes an arena meta good or bad?
    The current meta is bad because the classes are unbalanced and the picks are more random than before, so some runs are just completely hopeless and others are OP.

    But if you want to do competently in arena in like, a few bullet points
    -pick cards that are close to good stats when in doubt. Good vanilla stats are hp and attack equal to more than twice the mana cost (like a 4/5 for 4 mana). Balanced stats with health slightly above attack are better. 1 attack is too low except on specialty cards like stonehill defender.
    -pick cards that draw you good cards and create value. Loot hoarder, Stonehill Defender, stuff like that.
    -if you get it in the class you’re drafting, multi target damage is great and most buff spells are at least average or better (blessing of kings and Spikeridged steed are super strong).
    -draft some semblance of a curve. This is challenging, but err on the side of good 2 and 3 cost cards when you do have a choice. You need to do something in the first three turns besides hero power or you’ll lose.
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    Anarion's right on the money here.
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    Default Re: Hearthstone 23: The Evil League of EVIL

    I'm bad at hearthstone arena as well, my best runs are always warrior (which I don't play constructed with.) I had a taunt warrior deck that beat the first 7 matches smoothly because I had both of the cards that mass buff taunters, the legendary pig that buffs taunters each turn, two copies of shaggy and two copies of stonehill.

    I ended at 9 wins which is 2 more then any other deck has gotten me.

    Edit: Just lost a run where I had a 63/59 Pogo Hopper. Poison is so OP in that format.
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    Default Re: Hearthstone 23: The Evil League of EVIL

    They updated battlegrounds mode a bit; added a few heroes and removed a few as part of a rotation, tweaked the star level of a few minions, and fixed a few bugs.

    Also I managed to reach 5000 rating, or whatever it's called; been playing a lot of the mode.
    A neat custom class for 3.5 system
    http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=94616

    A good set of benchmarks for PF/3.5
    https://rpgwillikers.wordpress.com/2...y-the-numbers/

    An alternate craft point system I made for 3.5
    http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showt...t-Point-system

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    Default Re: Hearthstone 23: The Evil League of EVIL

    Anybody else find themselves wishing that they'd change quests in some way to make them work with Battlegrounds? I find I don't really want to play normal Hearthstone right now, just Battlegrounds. Standard is a dumpster fire of Evolve Shaman, aggro Priest, and combo nonsense, all things I neither want to play as nor against; and Wild I've concluded is basically a game of Rock-Paper-Scissors once you're out of the low ranks (ridiculous aggro decks that only lose to specialized anti-aggro control, which in turn auto-lose to the ridiculous combo decks), and thus no fun. Makes taking the time to complete quests feel like a chore that's mandatory just because I want to have gold for the next expansion...

    Quote Originally Posted by zlefin View Post
    They updated battlegrounds mode a bit; added a few heroes and removed a few as part of a rotation, tweaked the star level of a few minions, and fixed a few bugs.

    Also I managed to reach 5000 rating, or whatever it's called; been playing a lot of the mode.
    Now why would you say that without specifying what those changes were, or linking to the announcement?

    Anyway, I'm baffled by the decision to remove heroes in order to add the new ones. Why not just add the new ones? Just because then not all of them would get offered in a given game? I mean, in reality they already don't, since a lot of people are locked to picking from only two options instead of 3 until the new set launches, and even if that weren't the case, I don't see the point.

    On the specific changes:
    - Mukla, Giantfin, Millificent, and Lich Baz'hial removed. Millificent was a very strong one, but the other three were relatively rarely seen, Mukla probably being the most popular of them. So 3/4 will likely not be missed by many, and while Millificent will, it's not the worst thing in the world to lose one of the top-tiers. Kind of wish they'd taken away Jaraxxus instead of Mukla though, it felt like they'd made a good call with Mukla's buff, while Jaraxxus still feels pretty bad.
    - New heroes: Elise looks like the strongest of the bunch at first glance. Finley has potential, seems a bit reminiscent of Dancing Derryl. Brann might be good, most teams do want to keep buying some battlecry buff minions as the game goes on after all. Sindragosa is interesting, but I suspect not that good. ...and where the hell is Reno?
    - Minion changes: Junkbot moved to tier 5 is probably a decent Mech nerf, and should give them a good reason to go to tier 5 now as the developer comments said. Probably won't stop Mechs from being one the best strategies overall though. The Murlocs dropping tiers might help that strategy out, particularly the Seer, since durability is their biggest problem until they get to Megasaur. Voidlord probably doesn't make a huge difference to demon teams though - they still don't really come together until tier 5, since that's where both that and Mal'ganis are, and really want a gold Soul Juggler, which seems hard to assemble in my experience.

    Also, they're looking to add Floating Watcher to the mode in the next update? Uh, how would that one work? You only take self-damage from Vulgar Homunculus and Lich Baz'hial's hero power, and the latter of the two just went away. And if it just activates when you take damage in general, well, +2/+2 for losing a round doesn't seem like it'll be any good in this mode to me.
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    "We each decide our own sense of right and wrong. The rest, I leave to my sword." - Yuri Lowell, Tales of Vesperia

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    Default Re: Hearthstone 23: The Evil League of EVIL

    There is that guy that gains +2/+2 and deals 1 damage to your hero every time you play a demon. It's probably an ok demon card put in for more demon options which are kind of needed.
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    Default Re: Hearthstone 23: The Evil League of EVIL

    Quote Originally Posted by Hamste View Post
    There is that guy that gains +2/+2 and deals 1 damage to your hero every time you play a demon. It's probably an ok demon card put in for more demon options which are kind of needed.
    Oh, true, I forgot about that one since most of my attempts to use it have not gone well. Hm, in that case, maybe if they make a low enough tier demon (2-3, I think) it could help fill in a gap that strategy has in the early game right now, while providing them with another card that can actually get big in the end (and is a demon itself this time).
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    "We each decide our own sense of right and wrong. The rest, I leave to my sword." - Yuri Lowell, Tales of Vesperia

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    Default Re: Hearthstone 23: The Evil League of EVIL

    Glad to see that I'm not the only one enjoying the diversion for the current state of standard ladder! :D
    I really thought the changes would go away after the event, but having evolve in the format until the next expansion is waaaay to much, and I'm a aggro shaman player myself (ever since the glorious days of midrange shaman)!

    Meanwhile, I'm at 5107 at the moment, with 9 first places and 36 top 4. I really wish they deliver a well made stats table for us once the mode leaves the beta, as a rich information source is a good tool to improving my gameplay. Am also liking the speed of changes once issues are made evident, particularly the minion changes, although I think it's a matter of the beta status of the mode (hopefully it doesn't remain in beta forever, as per the recent trend in the game's industry) then a staple of it.
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    Default Re: Hearthstone 23: The Evil League of EVIL

    They said up front that the Wild cards were returning until the next expansion, so I'm not sure why you thought they were going away after the Halloween event.

    As far as Battlegrounds goes, I'm at 5448 atm, with 14 first and 28 top 4. Been hovering in the 5.1k-5.5k rank range since a few days into it, it feels like.
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    "We each decide our own sense of right and wrong. The rest, I leave to my sword." - Yuri Lowell, Tales of Vesperia

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    Default Re: Hearthstone 23: The Evil League of EVIL

    It's a shame too, because a lot of the decks created are genuinely fun. I was having an absolute blast with Malygos Hunter until EVERYBODY started playing hyper-turbo aggro because Evolve Shaman is such an oppressively unfun deck to play against.

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    Default Re: Hearthstone 23: The Evil League of EVIL

    Quote Originally Posted by Rynjin View Post
    It's a shame too, because a lot of the decks created are genuinely fun. I was having an absolute blast with Malygos Hunter until EVERYBODY started playing hyper-turbo aggro because Evolve Shaman is such an oppressively unfun deck to play against.
    Malygos Hunter is just as much of an unfun deck, IMO. About the only good to come from reintroducing the Wild cards for me was N'Zoth Priest and Highlander decks getting fun one-offs like Ragnaros and Sylvanas.
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    "We each decide our own sense of right and wrong. The rest, I leave to my sword." - Yuri Lowell, Tales of Vesperia

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    Default Re: Hearthstone 23: The Evil League of EVIL

    Quote Originally Posted by Zevox View Post
    They said up front that the Wild cards were returning until the next expansion, so I'm not sure why you thought they were going away after the Halloween event.

    As far as Battlegrounds goes, I'm at 5448 atm, with 14 first and 28 top 4. Been hovering in the 5.1k-5.5k rank range since a few days into it, it feels like.
    Wait, they did? I misread, then! xD
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    Default Re: Hearthstone 23: The Evil League of EVIL

    Quote Originally Posted by Zevox View Post
    Malygos Hunter is just as much of an unfun deck, IMO. About the only good to come from reintroducing the Wild cards for me was N'Zoth Priest and Highlander decks getting fun one-offs like Ragnaros and Sylvanas.
    Malygos Hunter is overall a "fair" deck. It has some severe weaknesses (you have pretty much no early game and a pretty weak midgame, it doesn't get the ridiculous sustain from armor and healing that Malygos Druid had back in its heyday) and isn't even a true OTK; most of the time you're bursting for 16-22 damage, not 30 or over, so it relies on you chipping the opponent over time and maintaining a bit of pressure (which is difficult. It's a deck that your opponent can play around and has interactive ways to keep the Hunter from doing the combo (providing enough pressure you can't ever play Jepetto).

    Evolve Shaman on the other hand is completely and utterly non-interactive. The only way to "play around" them getting a board full of 4/4s and a pair of 8/8s on turn 3-4 is to NOT PLAY CARDS, which just cements their early win and deletes most midrange and other aggro decks from the game, except ones that use mostly "charge damage" (actual Charge and weapons or spells), exacerbating the problem by creating more decks that are non-interactive.

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    Default Re: Hearthstone 23: The Evil League of EVIL

    Quote Originally Posted by Rynjin View Post
    Malygos Hunter is overall a "fair" deck. It has some severe weaknesses (you have pretty much no early game and a pretty weak midgame, it doesn't get the ridiculous sustain from armor and healing that Malygos Druid had back in its heyday) and isn't even a true OTK; most of the time you're bursting for 16-22 damage, not 30 or over, so it relies on you chipping the opponent over time and maintaining a bit of pressure (which is difficult. It's a deck that your opponent can play around and has interactive ways to keep the Hunter from doing the combo (providing enough pressure you can't ever play Jepetto).
    It's still a combo deck the answer to which basically boils down to "be aggressive." Therefore, I personally hate it and never want to play against it.
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    Default Re: Hearthstone 23: The Evil League of EVIL

    Quote Originally Posted by Zevox View Post
    It's still a combo deck the answer to which basically boils down to "be aggressive." Therefore, I personally hate it and never want to play against it.
    "Be minimally aggressive".

    IMHO any deck that does not provide any kind of pressure kind of deserves to be pushed out of the game. Control Warrior and other Control decks are at their most interesting when they HAVE to care about the board.

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    Default Re: Hearthstone 23: The Evil League of EVIL

    Quote Originally Posted by Zevox View Post
    It's still a combo deck the answer to which basically boils down to "be aggressive." Therefore, I personally hate it and never want to play against it.
    "Paper is fine, please nerf rock."
    ~scissors.
    Last edited by Tvtyrant; 2019-11-19 at 10:34 PM.

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    Default Re: Hearthstone 23: The Evil League of EVIL

    Quote Originally Posted by Rynjin View Post
    "Be minimally aggressive".

    IMHO any deck that does not provide any kind of pressure kind of deserves to be pushed out of the game. Control Warrior and other Control decks are at their most interesting when they HAVE to care about the board.
    Which carries about as much weight as me wishing that any deck that always aims to end the game with a big burst of damage from hand that can finish of people from full health should be pushed out of the game. Both such decks are going to exist, evidently. I'm inherently not going to be happy when those Combo decks are prominent. Perhaps the same is true of you when Control decks that don't put on pressure are prominent. If so, at least we have one thing in common I suppose.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tvtyrant View Post
    "Paper is fine, please nerf rock."
    ~scissors.
    Considering I just made a rock-paper-scissors analogy as an explanation for why I didn't want to play Wild, the problem with such a comparison should be obvious. But I'll spell it out anyway: a matchup that is too lopsided is not fun. If I'm going into a match knowing that my odds of winning are near nonexistent just because of what the other player's deck is, I start to question why I should bother to play at all.
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    Default Re: Hearthstone 23: The Evil League of EVIL

    Quote Originally Posted by Zevox View Post
    Which carries about as much weight as me wishing that any deck that always aims to end the game with a big burst of damage from hand that can finish of people from full health should be pushed out of the game.
    Except the current combo decks do not do that; they are forced to maintain a minimal board presence and pressure as well to succeed. It is less binary. Malygos Hunter can whittle passive Control decks down just by playing cards like Unleash the Beast, because they have no proactive defenses.

    It's a big reason why the passive Control Warrior decks have been pushed out for a while now in favor of versions that actually have to do something besides play 30 removal cards in a game.

    The game is better when there are a variety of interactive decks. I think the main source of our constant disagreement is that you seem to approach the game's balance by assuming you should be able to do nothing all game and win because you can force the other player to do nothing too, and resent anything that threatens that playstyle.

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    Default Re: Hearthstone 23: The Evil League of EVIL

    Quote Originally Posted by Rynjin View Post
    Except the current combo decks do not do that; they are forced to maintain a minimal board presence and pressure as well to succeed. It is less binary. Malygos Hunter can whittle passive Control decks down just by playing cards like Unleash the Beast, because they have no proactive defenses.
    If that were so it wouldn't be a Malygos deck, but a midrange one. Malygos decks inherently focus on getting to a big burst of damage to finish the game.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rynjin View Post
    The game is better when there are a variety of interactive decks. I think the main source of our constant disagreement is that you seem to approach the game's balance by assuming you should be able to do nothing all game and win because you can force the other player to do nothing too, and resent anything that threatens that playstyle.
    Hardly. Control decks' entire goal is to keep the opponent from killing them, and ultimately either exhaust the enemy of resources or chip them down once they're weakened enough that they can't handle what minions the decks do run. That's not doing nothing, that's playing defensively, and is very much an interactive playstyle.

    What I resent about combo decks is that just instantly win with a massive burst of damage from hand. They don't care about resources beyond those specific cards, which they just don't play until they have their Exodia assembled, and in the worst cases they don't even have to care how much health you have once they get it. They don't care at all about how the game has gone up until that moment - if they get there, they just kill you. So the only way not lose to them (barring getting lucky with combo disruption cards like Hecklebot) is to play aggressively, and if you play defensively, you are all but guaranteed to lose.

    (Granted, I also resent aggressive strategies that force you to have exactly the right answers at exactly the right times to even have a chance, but less so. As aggravating as they can be, it's mostly because it makes the game feel like it comes down to luck of the draw, which is regrettably inherent to the genre. Combo decks don't even do that.)
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    "We each decide our own sense of right and wrong. The rest, I leave to my sword." - Yuri Lowell, Tales of Vesperia

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    Default Re: Hearthstone 23: The Evil League of EVIL

    Quote Originally Posted by Zevox View Post
    If that were so it wouldn't be a Malygos deck, but a midrange one. Malygos decks inherently focus on getting to a big burst of damage to finish the game.
    I take it you haven't played or played against the deck in question?


    Quote Originally Posted by Zevox View Post
    Hardly. Control decks' entire goal is to keep the opponent from killing them, and ultimately either exhaust the enemy of resources or chip them down once they're weakened enough that they can't handle what minions the decks do run. That's not doing nothing, that's playing defensively, and is very much an interactive playstyle.

    What I resent about combo decks is that just instantly win with a massive burst of damage from hand. They don't care about resources beyond those specific cards, which they just don't play until they have their Exodia assembled, and in the worst cases they don't even have to care how much health you have once they get it. They don't care at all about how the game has gone up until that moment - if they get there, they just kill you. So the only way not lose to them (barring getting lucky with combo disruption cards like Hecklebot) is to play aggressively, and if you play defensively, you are all but guaranteed to lose.

    (Granted, I also resent aggressive strategies that force you to have exactly the right answers at exactly the right times to even have a chance, but less so. As aggravating as they can be, it's mostly because it makes the game feel like it comes down to luck of the draw, which is regrettably inherent to the genre. Combo decks don't even do that.)
    This is what I mean though, you don't need to "play aggressively" you need to play "not passively". You need like a third of your deck to be kind of proactive, tops. If you find yourself burning cards because your opponent can play fairly passively too and give you nothing to do, that's a deck building problem with your deck.

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    Default Re: Hearthstone 23: The Evil League of EVIL

    Quote Originally Posted by Rynjin View Post
    I take it you haven't played or played against the deck in question?
    I certainly haven't played it - I wouldn't want to, nor could I if I did, since it's a Hunter deck, and I disenchant all Hunter cards that I open. As for playing against it, I think I have, but only once. I recall one instance of facing someone who got Malygos off a Jepetto, had the weapon that gives spell damage from that one legendary already equipped, and suddenly killed me with a series of Rapid Fires and some other burst card (maybe Kill Command? Can't recall at this point).

    Shaman, Priest, and Druid have been the majority of my experience of standard on the rare occasions that I've played this month, with the Druids usually being the combo decks (4 mana Malygos via Floop + Swipe + a lot of Moonfires, copied a bunch of times with Elise).

    Quote Originally Posted by Rynjin View Post
    This is what I mean though, you don't need to "play aggressively" you need to play "not passively". You need like a third of your deck to be kind of proactive, tops. If you find yourself burning cards because your opponent can play fairly passively too and give you nothing to do, that's a deck building problem with your deck.
    If I find myself burning cards because my opponent isn't giving me targets for removal, it means we're in a Control mirror and have both drawn mostly or entirely our removal cards. Which is slightly annoying RNG for such a match, but far preferable to playing against a combo deck. At least then we're actually playing a resource management game, even if an odd one.
    Last edited by Zevox; 2019-11-19 at 11:48 PM.
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    "We each decide our own sense of right and wrong. The rest, I leave to my sword." - Yuri Lowell, Tales of Vesperia

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