Hearthstone 23: The Evil League of EVIL

[The Glyphstone]

Brann honestly feels more like a Rogue than a Hunter, he's all about sneaking and skulking around poking at stuff.

[Requizen]

https://playhearthstone.com/en-us/bl...ching-august-6

Next expansion early August! Quests are back!

[heronbpv]

Quick link to the release video!

Spoiler

Show

Also, it seems that the class distribution is as follows, to me at least:

1. Paladin - Sir Finley
2. Mage - Reno
3. Druid - Elise
4. Hunter - Brann

[Rodin]

Also, it seems that the class distribution is as follows, to me at least:

1. Paladin - Sir Finley
2. Mage - Reno
3. Druid - Elise
4. Hunter - Brann

Someone in the comments made the observation that Paladin from Boomsday was very crystal focused, and Reno in the video has a crystal gun. That would make him Paladin, which would fit given his previous healing ability. Sir Finley winds up as Mage by default.

Torn on the quests coming back. The really powerful ones from Ungoro felt really oppressive, but apart from Quest Rogue they weren't anywhere near as bad as the DKs were. The couple that they've previewed also don't seem that overwhelming.

Oh, and I'm laughing hysterically at Blizzard removing Control Priest's win condition and then turning around and giving them a 9-mana control spell. Not playing my favorite class looks like it will be coming to a middle.

[Geno9999]

There's also a patch today, most important of it is the new Basic and Classic cards have been added, but they're also changed the art for some cards (removing some blood/gore (Eviscerate, Headcrack, Deadly Shot, Bite), or making them less pinup (namely Secretkeeper, Queen of Pain, Windfury Harpy, and Succubus (now a Felstalker. Went from metaphorical man eater to a literal man eater.))

Pilfer also now gives you a random card from another class, instead of from your Opponent's class... and that just might actually be a buff because now Thief Rogue has another off-class generator for class mirror matches.

Sounds like Multi-target cards can be played now, even if there's only one viable target, and will also like-wise function if cast randomly such as from Yogg-Saron... or his Puzzle Box.

And Tavern Brawls will also only have 1 hour of downtime in between Brawls, instead of what, 3 days?

[Zevox]

Hearthstone expansion? Come on you guys, that is clearly the intro to an obscure 80s cartoon that I am going to need track down and binge-watch this weekend .

Seriously though, that is one of the best trailers for an expansion we've ever had, right up there with One Night in Kharazan. I approve.

Thoughts on what we've seen so far:
- So, Elise is Druid, huh? I mean, I guess it makes as much sense as any of them would, but she really seems like she should be the Mage. I mean, even the trailer has her holding a spellbook and shooting some magic bolt near the opening. Really not sure who ends up as the Mage, then.
- Speaking of Elise, damn I like that new hero art for her. Don't suppose there's any chance they'll include her in a cheaper bundle? I'd really like to have her, would totally retire Lunara for her, but $50 is way too high of a price tag for just some packs for an expansion set as far as I'm concerned.
- Nice to see new quests getting printed, as long as we don't see another that ends up as obnoxious as the old Rogue one. I am a bit worried that them changing hero powers might mean they're skipping printing a new hero card again though, since that's a big part of what those do. It's been a whole year since the last hero card I cared about (since Zul'jin doesn't count), so that would be very annoying.
- Specific card thoughts:
-- Restless Mummy: So it's basically Multishot most of the time, but more controlled, and substantially more flexible since it can be used as a minion. Could actually be good, though I doubt it fits into current Control or Bomb Warriors, so it might just be waiting for the rotation to find a place.
-- Plague of Death: Twisting Nether plus silence is some potent as hell board wipe, but that mana cost man. Still, could see play if Control priest is ever viable again, but Priest needs some serious help to make that happen.
-- Untapped Potential (Druid Quest): Very interesting. That's a potent passive, as we know from Fandral, and without a hero card like Malfurion I think that Druid's hero power is weak enough that you're happy trading it in for a passive like that. The condition's not too hard to fulfill either - though it may be hard to fulfill early enough, since not spending mana early tends to get you killed by more aggressive decks. Still, if you can pull it off, you could have this active by turn 6, at which point Nourish becomes insane, and it's the kind of effect that could even make more mediocre cards like Starfall playable. I also wonder, will other Druid cards be printed that reward them for having unspent mana at the end of their turn? That could be the make or break question for this quest.
-- Supreme Archeology (Warlock Quest): At first, this seemed terrible - after all, by the time you draw 20 cards not counting those you have on turn 1, your deck's almost gone, so you'd need some way to add cards to your deck in order to make this matter. Then I remember Plot Twist, which makes this much more playable. A big Plot Twist plus natural draws and a couple of taps could get this active by turn 10 realistically - and you can even run Elekk to give you a way to add cards to your deck with those Plot Twists. But then you have the problem that you're playing a Control Warlock, which currently isn't good. Need to see what, if any, support that archetype is going to get to know how this may pan out.
-- Questing Explorer: Very good card. If any of the quests are viable, she'll be in those decks, no question.
-- Puzzle Box of Yogg-Saron: Worse Yogg, probably not playable. Not that that means people won't try.
-- EVIL Totem: Interesting, but my gut says it's probably not good enough. It needs to survive to hand you 2 Lackeys to be better than EVIL Cable Rat, and that's only played sometimes in Rogue. And as a 0/2, I don't think it'll do that often enough to warrant use.
-- Jar Dealer: Solid 1-mana minion. Token Druid probably wants this guy, actually, and other decks that just want decent 1-drops might consider him.

There's also a patch today, most important of it is the new Basic and Classic cards have been added, but they're also changed the art for some cards (removing some blood/gore (Eviscerate, Headcrack, Deadly Shot, Bite), or making them less pinup (namely Secretkeeper, Queen of Pain, Windfury Harpy, and Succubus (now a Felstalker. Went from metaphorical man eater to a literal man eater.))

Pilfer also now gives you a random card from another class, instead of from your Opponent's class... and that just might actually be a buff because now Thief Rogue has another off-class generator for class mirror matches.

Sounds like Multi-target cards can be played now, even if there's only one viable target, and will also like-wise function if cast randomly such as from Yogg-Saron... or his Puzzle Box.

And Tavern Brawls will also only have 1 hour of downtime in between Brawls, instead of what, 3 days?

Weird choice to change all of that art after so many years - and especially to change the Succubus to something else entirely. I'll say that I actually like the new Secretkeeper art better, and most of the rest is little different to me. I don't actually remember there being any blood on any of those except Eviscerate though, and it looks a bit weird without it.

Pilfer is definitely a buff, might make it more usable for Thief Rogue. If they'd do that for Blink Fox too, they might just get somewhere in pushing that archetype.

And the Brawl timing change is a surprise, but might be nice, sometimes. There's a lot of Brawls I play once and then ignore, but being able to play the ones that I do like more sounds good.

[The Glyphstone]

I almost exclusively play Brawl these days except for my mandatory 5 wins/month, so more Brawl means more play time for me. Assuming its not one of the dumb Constructed+ like Brawlesium or Heroic Brawl.

[Rodin]

-- EVIL Totem: Interesting, but my gut says it's probably not good enough. It needs to survive to hand you 2 Lackeys to be better than EVIL Cable Rat, and that's only played sometimes in Rogue. And as a 0/2, I don't think it'll do that often enough to warrant use.

I dunno, I would have said the same thing about Primalfin Totem prior to seeing it in action. With that in mind, I think it's quite a bit better than Cable Rat in most scenarios. If you play it on turn 1 or 2 you will often be guaranteed to get a second Lackey. If the opponent does have an answer, it will often be a spell or weapon strike that they have to spend where they would have ignored the 1/1 body of the Cable Rat. Playing it late game also forces that conundrum - do you put the attack of one of your minions into a 0/2 when you really need to spend it elsewhere? Or do you let the opponent get another Lackey? The effect is strong enough to demand an answer quickly.

The flip side of all this is obviously that you don't get the first Lackey immediately, which can be big trouble if you are behind. It will probably depend on how the meta shakes out, as well as whether a Shaman deck that actually wants Lackeys is a thing.

[Joran]

-- Puzzle Box of Yogg-Saron: Worse Yogg, probably not playable. Not that that means people won't try.

Given the prevalence of Mana Cyclone Mage, this is the Glacial Mysteries spell to clog up the hand and dilute the random mage spell pool.

Also, it's hilarious and fun.

[CarpeGuitarrem]

I dunno, 10 spells seems like a pretty respectable Yogg, it was pretty common not to have Yogg survive, and it's guaranteed to keep casting until you hit 10 spells. Waaaaaaaaay better than Glacial Mysteries.

[Rodin]

I dunno, 10 spells seems like a pretty respectable Yogg, it was pretty common not to have Yogg survive, and it's guaranteed to keep casting until you hit 10 spells. Waaaaaaaaay better than Glacial Mysteries.

On the other hand, you can get what I got with the Dalaran Heist treasure that casts double Deck of Wonders. On turn 1 it recruited 3 minions out of my deck, drew the rest of my deck by hitting Ultimate Infestation on my own face as well as other various card draw effects, and then finished up with the 10th spell being Twisting Nether. Casting Glacial Mysteries would have been preferable by far.

It's not a card I expect to see people put into their decks, but it could have some hilarious effects when Discovered. Of special note, this spell existing means that every Kalecgos is a potential Yogg-Saron.

[Geno9999]

I dunno, 10 spells seems like a pretty respectable Yogg, it was pretty common not to have Yogg survive, and it's guaranteed to keep casting until you hit 10 spells. Waaaaaaaaay better than Glacial Mysteries.

It's also a spell. So it's entirely within the realm of possibility of it casting itself as one of the 10 random spells. I expect at least one (1) Trolden clip where a streamer gets 10 Puzzle Boxes of Yogg as part of their spell sequence.

[CarpeGuitarrem]

On the other hand, you can get what I got with the Dalaran Heist treasure that casts double Deck of Wonders. On turn 1 it recruited 3 minions out of my deck, drew the rest of my deck by hitting Ultimate Infestation on my own face as well as other various card draw effects, and then finished up with the 10th spell being Twisting Nether. Casting Glacial Mysteries would have been preferable by far.

It's not a card I expect to see people put into their decks, but it could have some hilarious effects when Discovered. Of special note, this spell existing means that every Kalecgos is a potential Yogg-Saron.

I mean, Yogg saw competitive play because when pumped with spells, he achieved a similar effect to this. This isn't exactly pre-nerf Yogg, but it has a whole lot of the same utility. I think it's very possible this winds up being maindecked in the right Mage deck.

[Resileaf]

I mean, Yogg saw competitive play because when pumped with spells, he achieved a similar effect to this. This isn't exactly pre-nerf Yogg, but it has a whole lot of the same utility. I think it's very possible this winds up being maindecked in the right Mage deck.

And if not, it will definitely be a last resort for the lulz spell for people to take.

[Zevox]

I dunno, I would have said the same thing about Primalfin Totem prior to seeing it in action. With that in mind, I think it's quite a bit better than Cable Rat in most scenarios. If you play it on turn 1 or 2 you will often be guaranteed to get a second Lackey. If the opponent does have an answer, it will often be a spell or weapon strike that they have to spend where they would have ignored the 1/1 body of the Cable Rat. Playing it late game also forces that conundrum - do you put the attack of one of your minions into a 0/2 when you really need to spend it elsewhere? Or do you let the opponent get another Lackey? The effect is strong enough to demand an answer quickly.

The flip side of all this is obviously that you don't get the first Lackey immediately, which can be big trouble if you are behind. It will probably depend on how the meta shakes out, as well as whether a Shaman deck that actually wants Lackeys is a thing.

You say that as if Primalfin Totem was some stand-out card that saw a ton of play, rather than one that just happened to get some play in a deck that was usually fairly niche. I'll grant that if you drop it on turn 1 via the coin it has a decent chance of giving you a second Lackey, but outside of that, I remain unconvinced. Nobody's going to mind throwing a Frostbolt or Backstab at it if they have to, or Warrior using a Weapons Project to take it out. And once the opponent has minions on the board, it gets a lot worse.

Given the prevalence of Mana Cyclone Mage, this is the Glacial Mysteries spell to clog up the hand and dilute the random mage spell pool.

Also, it's hilarious and fun.

Well, I agree with the first part of that. Though I'll at least give it that it is significantly better than Glacial Mysteries in most circumstances, because damn was that an awful card to get off a random spell generator. 8 mana do nothing a lot of the time...

It's also a spell. So it's entirely within the realm of possibility of it casting itself as one of the 10 random spells. I expect at least one (1) Trolden clip where a streamer gets 10 Puzzle Boxes of Yogg as part of their spell sequence.

I won't be too surprised if they've specifically excluded it from the pool of spells it can cast to avoid that sort of thing. Otherwise they actually run the risk, however unlikely, of it going truly infinite and never ending. Either by just continuously casting Puzzle Boxes in the least likely scenario, or in a slightly more probable one by casting a bunch of spells that don't hit face while consistently hitting more Puzzle Boxes as well.

[Rodin]

You say that as if Primalfin Totem was some stand-out card that saw a ton of play, rather than one that just happened to get some play in a deck that was usually fairly niche. I'll grant that if you drop it on turn 1 via the coin it has a decent chance of giving you a second Lackey, but outside of that, I remain unconvinced. Nobody's going to mind throwing a Frostbolt or Backstab at it if they have to, or Warrior using a Weapons Project to take it out. And once the opponent has minions on the board, it gets a lot worse.

My memory said it was a major card in Token Evolve Shaman, which saw a ton of tournament play. I went and checked the Trump Reviews Trump Reviews for Un'goro, and he upgraded his initial rating of 4 stars up to 5 stars after the fact, despite his original 4 star prediction of Quest Shaman falling on its face. So...yeah. It was a good card that made top-level tournament decks, and I stand by my position.

On the card under discussion, if your opponent throws a Frostbolt or a Backstab at it...good! I want them to, because it just made the totem better than Cable Rat by forcing my opponent to spend a card to answer it.

[Zevox]

My memory said it was a major card in Token Evolve Shaman, which saw a ton of tournament play. I went and checked the Trump Reviews Trump Reviews for Un'goro, and he upgraded his initial rating of 4 stars up to 5 stars after the fact, despite his original 4 star prediction of Quest Shaman falling on its face. So...yeah. It was a good card that made top-level tournament decks, and I stand by my position.

On the card under discussion, if your opponent throws a Frostbolt or a Backstab at it...good! I want them to, because it just made the totem better than Cable Rat by forcing my opponent to spend a card to answer it.

Hm, okay, fair, I did not play much during the Un'goro meta (it launched right around the same time Persona 5 came out, so that was probably the period of time where I played the least Hearthstone I ever have) and don't remember that deck or how good it was at the time well. I'm pretty confident it didn't stay particularly good for long after that though, I don't recall Shaman seeing too much play pretty much from Frozen Throne all the way through the rotation this year. There was Even Shaman, but that was the more niche use of it that I was referring to earlier, it wasn't often a major force in the meta to my recollection.

[Geno9999]

My memory said it was a major card in Token Evolve Shaman, which saw a ton of tournament play. I went and checked the Trump Reviews Trump Reviews for Un'goro, and he upgraded his initial rating of 4 stars up to 5 stars after the fact, despite his original 4 star prediction of Quest Shaman falling on its face. So...yeah. It was a good card that made top-level tournament decks, and I stand by my position.

On the card under discussion, if your opponent throws a Frostbolt or a Backstab at it...good! I want them to, because it just made the totem better than Cable Rat by forcing my opponent to spend a card to answer it.

Ehh, I think what matters to EVIL Totem being good or not will be less because of the board presence like Primalfin Totem brings, and more on what/if we get new Lackeys. I think a better comparison would instead be between this and Mana Tide Totem, since it has been established that a Lackey is worth a card from your deck (compare EVIL Cable Rat and Novice Engineer, and between EVIL Miscreant and Elven Minstrel.) The Pros being that EVIL Totem is 1 Mana cheaper for the comparative cost of being 1 less health, but because of it, it doesn't concede as much early tempo/mana to get it out. Further, it doesn't run the risk of milling yourself to fatigue against long Control games.

That being said, the stat line does make it more attractive than EVIL Cable Rat, because of your reason that a Rogue, Druid, and Mage can't hero power it away and have to spend a card or a minion attack to get rid of it instead.

[Joran]

Quick link to the release video!

Spoiler

Show

Also, it seems that the class distribution is as follows, to me at least:

1. Paladin - Sir Finley
2. Mage - Reno
3. Druid - Elise
4. Hunter - Brann

This is correct. Rodin was close; Reno's class was determined by his gun, but it's apparently a gun made out of magic wands, hence he's a Mage.

[Zevox]

So this week's Brawl is the "build your deck as you go" one. Pretty good one to start off our full-week Brawl cycle with IMO, it's one of the best outside of the "play as a boss" and co-op vs a boss ones to me personally.

Though there's really little reason to play a class other than Rogue. Their hero power is great for dealing with chickens in the early game, and they can high-roll into getting Edwin Van Cleef and just win off him.

[ranagrande]

So this week's Brawl is the "build your deck as you go" one. Pretty good one to start off our full-week Brawl cycle with IMO, it's one of the best outside of the "play as a boss" and co-op vs a boss ones to me personally.

Though there's really little reason to play a class other than Rogue. Their hero power is great for dealing with chickens in the early game, and they can high-roll into getting Edwin Van Cleef and just win off him.

Personally, I think Mage is the clear winner in this one.

In other news, I finally beat Khadgar in the Heroic Heist in the easiest, stupidest run I've had so far. It turns out that having 38 copies of Ragnaros that only cost 2 mana is pretty good.

[The Glyphstone]

Priest getting Grave Golem can be an amazing high roll too.

[Zevox]

Personally, I think Mage is the clear winner in this one.

How so? I can't think of anything particularly impressive about them for this one. I guess there's the potential synergy of Magic Dart Frog with all the coins/spare parts, but if you don't get that in the first couple of turns, its usefulness drops dramatically. I know I saw one of my opponents go for that once already, and it didn't help them nearly as much as I would've expected.

Priest getting Grave Golem can be an amazing high roll too.

You mean Grave Horror? Yeah, I guess that would be a good one, though it partially depends on how many coins and spare parts you get, to determine how early you get it cheap enough to be playable.

[Seerow]

This is probably my favorite brawl. Like enough that I wish it was it's own game mode with ladder.

That being said, sometimes it's super frustrating. Like when you queue into a warrior who gets magic carpet early. Then gets doctor boom. And brawl. And shield slam. And warpath. And Omega assembly.

Yeah I basically wound up playing against a control warrior with a great tempo early game and no chance of ever running out of steam.

[Zevox]

This is probably my favorite brawl. Like enough that I wish it was it's own game mode with ladder.

You know, this is probably the only Brawl where I could actually see that being possible. I'd even play it sometimes.

[ranagrande]

How so? I can't think of anything particularly impressive about them for this one. I guess there's the potential synergy of Magic Dart Frog with all the coins/spare parts, but if you don't get that in the first couple of turns, its usefulness drops dramatically. I know I saw one of my opponents go for that once already, and it didn't help them nearly as much as I would've expected.

Mages have the best board clears, which is very useful in this brawl. They also have a lot of powerful options at every stage of the game. Conjurer's Calling and Kalecgos can both win games, and I've been able to discover them fairly often.

[CarpeGuitarrem]

Hunter can go incredibly fast and hard with Houndmaster, Hyena, or Tracking.

[Zevox]

So, apparently the Shaman quest got revealed at some point.

Corrrupt the Waters: Play 6 battlecry cards. Reward: Heart of Vir'naal - Hero power, 2 mana, Your battlecries trigger twice this turn.

Eh, this may be the weakest one we've seen so far. If it were a passive like the Druid one I'd think that maybe someone would find a way to break it with a Shudderwock deck, but being 2 mana to get the effect for a turn means no Shudderwock combos with it. And I don't think there's any other battlecries that become broken enough when doubled in standard right now - maybe if Jades were still around, but they're long gone. Plus it competes with Hagatha for Shamans that want to play the long game, and almost surely comes up short there without having some crazy combo it can be part of.

Mages have the best board clears, which is very useful in this brawl. They also have a lot of powerful options at every stage of the game. Conjurer's Calling and Kalecgos can both win games, and I've been able to discover them fairly often.

My experience is that the game often doesn't go long enough for something like Conjurer's Calling (which needs a decent cost target to be good) or Kalecgos to come into play. And I actually don't think Mage does have the best board clears, that would go to either Warrior or Warlock - and for all of them it's quite the crapshoot whether you're ever offered them, since there's so many cards in the discover pool. I've played against a few of each of those classes and never seen a single AoE thrown at me. The only one I have been hit by was a Druid dropping a Starfall.

[CarpeGuitarrem]

I feel like the Shaman quest doesn't necessarily clash with Hagatha, it's similar to playing Zul'jin into Rexxar. Kind of like a new boss battle stage, and you're almost always going to finish the quest before you have a chance to play Hagatha.

At that point, it's a matter of which battlecries are worth 2 mana to you. Hagatha giving a second horror, the Horror getting double spells, a 6 damage board wipe with the hero Hagatha, okay so with the current card pool I can't think of much more that Shaman runs, although those three are incredible value for 2 mana. Maybe double Fire Elemental for an 8 mana 6/5 deal 6, sort of a spendier Crowd Roaster. And there's a problem with that.

Right now, the best use is to get a few swing turns with double battlecries and then play Hagatha to wipe the board, so you're getting a narrow benefit.

[Geno9999]

I for one am scared of Shaman Quest, because it's ridiculously easy to complete, and it affects ALL of your battlecries for the rest of your turn. I'm not putting in Hagatha (okay, maybe Swampqueen because 2 Dustvar Horrors sounds really good), I'm not putting in Flame Elementals: I'm putting in Sludge Slurper, I'm putting in EVIL Cable Rat, Menacing Nimbus, Lifedrinkers. I'm not thinking about playing one thing with double battlecries, I'm playing like I'm capped at 8 mana with a hand full of Lackeys that have an permanent Spirit of the Shark in play.