Hearthstone 23: The Evil League of EVIL

[Zevox]

@Zevox:
I see, so the core idea for a control deck is simply out value and outlast the opponent, isn't it? And, the moment they got a more defined plan to finish the game off (e.g. machine gunning, C'Thuns, Mill), then they are better understood as combo decks?
The way I'm seeing it, this line is very thin! But I defer to the expertise of the more experienced players in the thread, since my only experience with card games is with Hearthstone (and that one gameboy pokemon trading card game, but that doesn't count, since no human players!).

They're a combo deck if they're trying to assemble a specific set of cards to kill the opponent with sudden burst damage from hand (or an alternate but guaranteed win condition like Mecha'thun), especially if it's a one-turn KO (like old Quest Mage going infinite off Antonidas), but even if it takes place over multiple turns (i.e. Shirvalla/Holy Wrath Paladin is often a two-turn kill, since it's hard to play both Holy Wraths and Baleful Bankers on the same turn without getting lucky Prismatic Lens discounts on the Holy Wraths).

Original C'thun would not be a combo deck, but a Control one (or maybe slower midrange, depending on how you built it). C'thun might kill your opponent, but didn't generally get so big that you won just by playing him and dealing enough damage to end the game right away, he was instead just an extremely strong play when you got to him, often providing a lot of value through killing enemy minions as well as dishing out some face damage, plus just being a very big body after that.

Basically, if there's a specific combination of cards you want to kill someone with quickly from your hand, it's a combo - hence the name "combo." You probably go to the late-game with such decks, but only because it usually takes until then to assemble your combo and have the mana to use it - getting to the late-game in and of itself isn't your goal. If you're deliberately playing for the late game and trying to simply outlast an opponent in the long run, you're a Control deck. Raza Priest was a combo deck because it revolved around playing exactly Velen + Mind Blast(s) + repeated hero power for a big burst of damage to finish off an opponent. Older Dragon Priests, by contrast, were either Midrange or Control, depending on how they were built - they didn't have a burst damage win condition from specific cards like that, but just put Dragons onto the board and eventually won through value (Drakonid Operative and Netherspite Historian provided a lot of that) or just stronger board presence than the opponent could handle.

[Neon Knight]

I've always felt a decent way to separate Control from Combo is the rate of cycling the deck. Control decks want to cycle some to fix awkward hands and find their answers to specific threats, but they sometimes hold off on draw due to concerns of fatigue. A Combo deck always wants to be cycling and drawing towards assembling the combo, only stopping when overdrawing threatens to burn a combo piece or when they have to control the board to prevent their untimely deaths.

Control decks want to run removal and value cards with just enough cycle to make sure they find the right cards at the right time. Combo decks want to run their combo, as much draw as possible, and the minimum amount of removal and stall necessary to keep themselves alive.

[Tvtyrant]

Another way to parse it is consistency. Control and combo decks can even use the same chassis but control will be more consistent due to not being required to assemble a combo.

[heronbpv]

@All:
I like the points being brought so far, thanks all for the clarifications! :D (where's the like button?)

[Seerow]

Last game I just had to cross into rank 5.

Be me, combo priest.

Be not me, control warrior.

Turn 1 Me: Play northshire cleric
Turn 1 Not me: Pass
Turn 2 Me: Play Wild Pyro, attack face with cleric
Turn 2 Not me: Armor up and pass
Turn 3 me: Play Lightwarden, second Northshire Cleric, Power Word: Shield, Circle of Healing. Draw 8 cards and buff Lightwarden to a 9/1.
Turn 3 Not Me: I choose death!

[Thomas Cardew]

Another way to parse it is consistency. Control and combo decks can even use the same chassis but control will be more consistent due to not being required to assemble a combo.

I'm not sure that's quite true. It makes it sound as though control will generally beat combo. The whole point of a combo deck is to be consistently able to pull off the combo, combo decks can consistently win against control decks if control decks can't apply enough pressure to stop the combo deck from gathering its pieces. Deck Power/ Win rates reflect which is more consistent, not the underlying deck strategy.

[AmberVael]

Despite Hearthstone seriously bullying me and giving me horrific luck a number of times (Dr. Boom as my very last card in a control warrior mirror? Really?) I've hit legend.

I've concluded that priest is currently a nightmare and I hate everything about it. If you can't answer everything they'll draw a thousand cards and then combo you to death.
And mage is complete nonsense. Who the crap thought pocket galaxy was a good idea.

[CarpeGuitarrem]

@CarpeGuitarrem:
But they tried last nerf round, right? At least, as a justification. Not that they've been consistent or anything, and also the lack of a thorough review of the classic and basic sets doesn't help long term.

Yeah, they gave a bunch of clusters of justifications, but they were largely random clusters of mechanics and nothing that actually felt cohesive or indicative of particular playstyles. Not to beat on old topics, but IMO the problem is that they're trying to emulate Magic's color system, but you can't do that with nine colors, that's just too many slices of the pie. Especially when mixing colors isn't possible. (Though maybe you could do a thing where colors don't mix, technically, but each class is actually a mix of a couple of the colors. Given that there's technically 20 possible color combinations, you pick the ones you like.)

What I'd love to see, or rather what I would have loved to see, was an approach more like character select in a fighting game. Every class has access to most of the universal tools of the game (whether in neutral cards or as class cards with unique spins on the tool in question), but some classes have additional access to signature tools. A lot more clearly-defined at that point, and more in keeping with a CCG philosophy anyhow. Creating significant strengths and weaknesses doesn't benefit game balance much, because that creates deliberately imbalanced matchups.

[Stevesciguy]

I'm just getting back into the game after not playing for ages. I had two quests that were "win a game with shaman", so I threw together a crappy wild Evolve deck.

My first opponent was a mage who played primordial glyph on two into Luna's pocket galaxy on three.

I also had the worst run of evolves I've ever had. Despite using my Evolve mechanics consistently and getting the hero card off every game, I think I could count on one hand the number of time I evolved into minions with even average stats.

At one point I managed to evolve an entire board of grubs from Violet Wurm with the hero card. I got 4 2/2s, a 1/1, a 2/4, and a 3/3.

Hearthstone is out to get me

Or maybe I'm just bad... I somehow managed to lose against a paladin who was afk for the first four turns...

[Zevox]

So, this week's Brawl is "all minions are amalgams." Every Brawl deck really needs to start with two Hungry Crabs, Golakka Crawlers, Dragonslayers, and EMP Operatives, because those are just nuts under those conditions. Probably should auto-include two Mechwarpers, Snip-Snap, and Zilliax, too. Oh, and Patches.

(I only have one Hungry Crab . And no Patches, but eh, that one I still don't regret.)

[Anarion]

So, this week's Brawl is "all minions are amalgams." Every Brawl deck really needs to start with two Hungry Crabs, Golakka Crawlers, Dragonslayers, and EMP Operatives, because those are just nuts under those conditions. Probably should auto-include two Mechwarpers, Snip-Snap, and Zilliax, too. Oh, and Patches.

(I only have one Hungry Crab . And no Patches, but eh, that one I still don't regret.)

Too defensive. Hungry crab is excellent since it's so cheap, but I wouldn't bother with most of the others. Try running super fast murloc/mech hunter or shaman with the 0 cost "your totems get +2 attack" and all the cards that let you fill up your board asap. Free permanent savage roar wins games very quickly.

[Zevox]

Too defensive. Hungry crab is excellent since it's so cheap, but I wouldn't bother with most of the others. Try running super fast murloc/mech hunter or shaman with the 0 cost "your totems get +2 attack" and all the cards that let you fill up your board asap. Free permanent savage roar wins games very quickly.

Not a chance. I still want to have fun if I'm playing, and such aggro nonsense is not fun to me.

[Rynjin]

I think it's time for Cannon Barrage to shine.

[Hamste]

I like warlock for this brawl. Lots of AoE but most importantly, they have sac pacts. I didn't play emp tech but I played all the other anti-tribe cards along with most of Warlocks AoE even felfire potion but not twisting nether or shadowflame.

[Rynjin]

I think it's time for Cannon Barrage to shine.

This did, in fact, end up as a very satisfying win. 24 burst damage face with a board full of Frost Nova'd minions.

[heronbpv]

Just pointing out, since it hasn't been brought yet, but a round of nerfsbalance changes is going to be confirmed sometime this week.
Source.

Although I like the current state of the meta (albeit I'm not playing all that much, and also I play Warrior mostly), and I think it's still to premature to call in the hammer, I do see reason to at least revert the buff to Pocket Galaxy back to 7 mana (or maybe 6), as some data is indicating it's just as degenerate as Barnes was in his prime (which is a card that still plagues Wild, or so I heard).

What are your thoughts, thread?

[Stevesciguy]

Just pointing out, since it hasn't been brought yet, but a round of nerfsbalance changes is going to be confirmed sometime this week.
Source.

Although I like the current state of the meta (albeit I'm not playing all that much, and also I play Warrior mostly), and I think it's still to premature to call in the hammer, I do see reason to at least revert the buff to Pocket Galaxy back to 7 mana (or maybe 6), as some data is indicating it's just as degenerate as Barnes was in his prime (which is a card that still plagues Wild, or so I heard).

What are your thoughts, thread?

I agree that it needs a nerf. It's a high variance card that's totally dependent on where it is in your deck. High variance cards like that aren't good for the game, as seen with previous high variance cards like Barnes.

From a more subjective point, it just feels sucky to have it played against you on turn 4(or turn 3, in my most recent experience)

[Zevox]

Just pointing out, since it hasn't been brought yet, but a round of nerfsbalance changes is going to be confirmed sometime this week.
Source.

Although I like the current state of the meta (albeit I'm not playing all that much, and also I play Warrior mostly), and I think it's still to premature to call in the hammer, I do see reason to at least revert the buff to Pocket Galaxy back to 7 mana (or maybe 6), as some data is indicating it's just as degenerate as Barnes was in his prime (which is a card that still plagues Wild, or so I heard).

What are your thoughts, thread?

I honestly don't care what they do with Pocket Galaxy, personally, I've seen very little of it personally. I just hope that they don't take the advice of all the youtubers I've seen advocating a nerf to or Hall of Faming of Doctor Boom, Mad Genius. If they do, I will be pretty incensed, and will definitely need to make some change to how I play the game, because I've grown pretty sick of just bearing with these now-regular balance changes that I inevitably mostly hate.

[Seerow]

I honestly don't care what they do with Pocket Galaxy, personally, I've seen very little of it personally. I just hope that they don't take the advice of all the youtubers I've seen advocating a nerf to or Hall of Faming of Doctor Boom, Mad Genius. If they do, I will be pretty incensed, and will definitely need to make some change to how I play the game, because I've grown pretty sick of just bearing with these now-regular balance changes that I inevitably mostly hate.

I'm predicting instead of touching Boom, we'll get a nerf to Omega Assembly (probably up the mana cost), then probably to some classic control tools. My money is on Brawl and Shield Slam.

I suspect this will make you even angrier than if they had just nerfed/HoFed Dr. Boom.



For Mage I can see it go either way, but I think I saw Donais mentioned on stream that Pocket Galaxy was on the hit list. Even if that information was incorrect, after the last tournament of mostly mage mirrors culminating in the tournament champion at the end saying "I really concentrated on drawing Pocket Galaxy" when asked what kind of prep he did for the tournament... it is an easy thing to look at and go "yep they probably want to address that".


There's been rumor going around about Priest being on the chopping block, either renerfing Extra Arms or HOFing/nerfing Divine Spirit... really hoping that neither of those happen, because I really want Priest to be useful for more than a couple of weeks. Yes Divine Spirit/Inner Fire is old, but until they print some other feasible wincon, I don't want it gone.

[Zevox]

I'm predicting instead of touching Boom, we'll get a nerf to Omega Assembly (probably up the mana cost), then probably to some classic control tools. My money is on Brawl and Shield Slam.

I suspect this will make you even angrier than if they had just nerfed/HoFed Dr. Boom.

Omega Assembly would not, unless it were a truly ridiculous nerf that left it unplayable. The classic control tools though, yes, you're very correct about the effect that would have. The only thing worse than nerfing my favorite card in current standard would be nerfing my favorite archetype for all of time. Again, since they already did that with the Firey War Axe nerf so long ago now (and yes, I still hate that).

[heronbpv]

I like Kibler's suggestion to reduce the armor gained by playing Boom to 5, and to remove the gain 7 armor hero power. It would take the survivability away, giving pressure decks their chance to dispatch the Control Warrior in the mid game, but would also increase the chance of getting delivery drone, increasing the value gain over time for the Warrior.
It feels better than HoFing it, but in truth I don't see a need to nerf him as much as Pocket Galaxy (aside from community perception), because people have to remember what really was a bad hero card (Frost Lich Jaina, anyone? Deathstalker Rexxar maybe?), and him going away will only shift the focus on the next on the list, Hagatha, and the blaming cycle will never end... :(
Conjurer's Calling and Mountain Giant, and possibly Divine Spirit as pointed by Seerow, may be on the radar as well. Maybe that Priest taunt giant thing, as an alternative to a nerf to Mountain Giant's mana cost (e.g. leave him alone at his mana cost, to avoid the game winning taunts against aggro decks; I hate when this happens). I like the role Mountain Giant is playing in the new Handbuff Paladin by Jambre, it's pretty good. Here's some footage, courtesy of Firebat.

[Gandariel]

From what I understand, (haven't been playing lately):

- Boom: some say nerf, some say HoF to preserve it for Wild, some say need something else.

Personally I'd slightly nerf Boom (probably retouching the hero power), and nerf some other card (Omega Assembly mana cost, removing the mech tag from Omega Devastator, or maybe Dynomatic nerf)

-Pocket Galaxy: I guess mana cost goes up. It's not a card meant for a t1 deck. It's a gimmicky but fun card and it should stay so.

- Priest: I don't think they'll nerf the inner fire combo, or at least I hope they won't. I like that Priest has a valid fast deck, and this zoo thing reliant on buff spells is unique enough.
If they want it to be weaker they can tone down other cards.

- Prismatic Lens: it's very high rolly, allowing for super early Tip the Scales 2/3 of the times. I can't think of a way to nerf it other than mana cost.

[CarpeGuitarrem]

I think they HoF Inner Fire, if for no other reason than having an evergreen staple combo is bad for their bottom line. Hearthstone subsists on pushing players to buy new cards, and if you have a staple combo that you can use every expansion, that doesn't push you to buy new cards. Divine Spirit is more outright utility, and they'll just print cards that work sorta like Inner Fire, and have them rotate out.

[Seerow]

I think they HoF Inner Fire, if for no other reason than having an evergreen staple combo is bad for their bottom line. Hearthstone subsists on pushing players to buy new cards, and if you have a staple combo that you can use every expansion, that doesn't push you to buy new cards. Divine Spirit is more outright utility, and they'll just print cards that work sorta like Inner Fire, and have them rotate out.

The problem with going after IF rather than DS right now is that if you HoF Inner Fire, people just use Topsy Turvy instead, and it makes 0 impact on the meta now (the primary purpose of cards that get impacted between rotations) while still weakening the Priest classic set in the long run. I agree if we were about to do a new year rotation, IF would be a more likely target, but given where we are now I'd be really surprised if IF got hit.



Also I did totally forget about the Giants. I can see them going after Giants, either through a mechanic change (ie the change Kripp and others have been requesting of having a card keep the mana cost that was used to play it once it hits the field. So your 3 mana giant conjurer's callings into 2 3-mana minions), or through HoFing one or both. Another option is I could see them buffing the mana cost of Grave Horror. Bump it up to 10 mana, it's now much more playable for Priests where it was intended, and Mages using Conjurer's Calling on a Mountain Giant only get more Mountain Giants. Giving up their ability to spontaneously generate taunts is a pretty serious indirect nerf to the combo. I can't even count how many times I was a turn off lethal against a mage who proceeded to summon 2-4 grave horrors on me.

[Stevesciguy]

At first I thought that Frost Lich Jaina would break this brawl over her knee, but now I'm not sure if a game can last long enough to be able to play her

[Geno9999]

Well wonder what gets hit with the nerfs no more, because they just announced them:


Conjurer's Calling to 4 Mana.

Luna's Pocket Galaxy reverted to 7 Mana.

Dr. Boom, Mad Genius to 9 Mana.

Extra Arms reverted to 3 Mana.

And Barnes to 5 Mana.

Spoiler: Nerfed Thoughts

Show

Conjurer's should still see play, though a bit harder for the Mage to pull a Giant -> Khadgar -> Conjurer's Calling turn, or even just Giant into Conjurer's. Still decent value at 4 mana.

Not so sure about Luna's Pocket Galaxy though, I had figured that 6 Mana would have been a sweet spot, though then again it might have been still too powerful especially with number of high-cost minions in Highlander Mage.

OW MY FLAVOR! NOOO!!! Ah well, Dr. Boom is still a rather powerful Hero card, I'd suspect that Control Warrior's WR will dip by ~1% overall, but will still be in Tier 1.

Because Extra Arms got nerfed, so Priest won't be taking early wins with Turn 1 Cleric Turn 2 Extra Arms. Though that does mean that Priest will no longer have a Tier 2 deck.

Barnes is still strong, though a lot more removal options open up at 5 Mana, which makes Barnes into pulling out a 1/1 Y'Saarj that pulls out the 10/10 Y'Saarj a little more manageable.

[Rodin]

Support for my theory that the buffs and Snip-Snap were pushed out in a hurry for the event continues to accrue at an alarming rate.

[Resileaf]

The biggest change that Mad Genius mana cost change brings (to me anyway) is that it's no longer economical to start the game with him in your hand. I used to prefer keeping him there, even if he was taking room in my hand for a while, because I knew that I absolutely wanted to play him on turn 7 and didn't want to risk drawing him dead last in my deck.

[Thomas Cardew]

I forgot how it works with nerfs. Is it worth rushing to craft them? Or no net gain.

[Resileaf]

I forgot how it works with nerfs. Is it worth rushing to craft them? Or no net gain.

You won't gain anything from crafting them, dusting them when the nerf comes gives the same dust as it takes to craft them in the first place.