The Order of the Stick: Utterly Dwarfed
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  1. - Top - End - #811
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    Default Re: Hearthstone 23: The Evil League of EVIL

    Quote Originally Posted by Geno9999 View Post
    Well wonder what gets hit with the nerfs no more, because they just announced them:


    Conjurer's Calling to 4 Mana.

    Luna's Pocket Galaxy reverted to 7 Mana.

    Dr. Boom, Mad Genius to 9 Mana.

    Extra Arms reverted to 3 Mana.

    And Barnes to 5 Mana.
    As long as they are unable to balance their cards on release, they will not see any money from me for packs again.

  2. - Top - End - #812
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    Default Re: Hearthstone 23: The Evil League of EVIL

    Quote Originally Posted by Sporeegg View Post
    As long as they are unable to balance their cards on release, they will not see any money from me for packs again.
    I mean, literally no card game has every card be balanced on release. But if a ****ty OP Magic card gets printed the players are stuck with it forever.

    I don't get why people are so harsh on Blizzard actually making use of one of the unique advantages of the completely digital format.

    It means they can experiment with card balance and change it later if need be. That's a GOOD thing, because it gives data for future effects with potential similar impacts.
    Last edited by Rynjin; 2019-08-22 at 03:54 PM.

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    Default Re: Hearthstone 23: The Evil League of EVIL

    Quote Originally Posted by Rynjin View Post
    I mean, literally no card game has every card be balanced on release. But if a ****ty OP Magic card gets printed the players are stuck with it forever.

    I don't get why people are so harsh on Blizzard actually making use of one of the unique advantages of the completely digital format.

    It means they can experiment with card balance and change it later if need be. That's a GOOD thing, because it gives data for future effects with potential similar impacts.
    Only in Legacy/Modern formats. In Most other formats you only have to endure a ****ty card for a few months to the year. And that's before you factor in bans if a certain happy cat falls into the perfect slot for an infinite combo.

    It's good that Blizzard can balance cards, but they need to take a good hard look at the basic set and see if having those constants around forever is limiting design.
    Last edited by LaZodiac; 2019-08-22 at 04:07 PM.


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    Default Re: Hearthstone 23: The Evil League of EVIL

    Quote Originally Posted by Sporeegg View Post
    As long as they are unable to balance their cards on release, they will not see any money from me for packs again.
    That is wee bit harsh. WotC has been making MtG for over 25 years, yet they still had to make day 1 (or rather pre-release) errata in Ixalan, since Hostage Taker could cause an endless loop. That seems like a worse mistake than anything Blizz has done so far ;)
    Quote Originally Posted by Pickford View Post
    I don't understand your point. Why does it matter what I said?

  5. - Top - End - #815
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    Default Re: Hearthstone 23: The Evil League of EVIL

    Quote Originally Posted by LaZodiac View Post
    Only in Legacy/Modern formats. In Most other formats you only have to endure a ****ty card for a few months to the year. And that's before you factor in bans if a certain happy cat falls into the perfect slot for an infinite combo.

    It's good that Blizzard can balance cards, but they need to take a good hard look at the basic set and see if having those constants around forever is limiting design.
    Eh, you got my point.

    But yes, I definitely think they should start rotating the Classic set, and maybe even the Basic set.

    It would be interesting, as I've said before, for them to do something similar to what Arena is doing and rotate in cards from Wild to be the new Basic and Classic cards for every set rotation. Cards that both thematically and mechanically complement the year's new sets. They're not making any money off those sets anyway.

    Rename the Classic set to the "Legacy" set or some such and be done with it.

    This doesn't just cut down on degenerate "feels bad" strategies like Malygos Druid/Priest and Inner Fire Priest being the scourge of the meta every couple of years, but also cuts down on "orphan synergies" like the Handbuff decks they keep trying to reprint with less and less support each time. If cards like Lynessa Sunsorrow became part of Paladin's Legacy set one year, along with some key cards from Mean Streets of Gadgetzan, etc. certain handbuff cards wouldn't feel so out of place.

  6. - Top - End - #816
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    Default Re: Hearthstone 23: The Evil League of EVIL

    Quote Originally Posted by Geno9999 View Post
    Well wonder what gets hit with the nerfs no more, because they just announced them:


    Conjurer's Calling to 4 Mana.

    Luna's Pocket Galaxy reverted to 7 Mana.

    Dr. Boom, Mad Genius to 9 Mana.

    Extra Arms reverted to 3 Mana.

    And Barnes to 5 Mana.
    Luna's Pocket Galaxy - No comment, I haven't seen much of it, and don't have it, so I really have no idea how warranted this is.

    Extra Arms - Very disappointing. Priest apparently is not allowed to have good cards.

    Conjurer's Calling - Might be fine, I guess? Never have been much into those decks though, so I'm not the best judge.

    Barnes - *shrug*

    Doctor Boom - Goddamn it. Part of me thinks that "just" a mana nerf like this might not kill him or Control Warrior, since high-cost Hero cards have worked elsewhere (although Boom is not as potent as a Jaina or Gul'dan, and at cost 9 you can't even really do anything to the board on the turn you play him, so there's some worry there for sure). Another part of me doesn't even care at this point, because even if Control Warrior survives this, I'm pretty fed up with Blizzard's approach to balance.

    At this point, I'm seriously considering, after this month is over (still need to get to rank 5 for that 400 dust reward, hopefully), being just done with Standard and switching entirely to Wild. Because then these sorts of balance changes will affect me less, since Blizzard aims them at Standard, and they aren't being pressured to do something to change the meta every damned month or two in Wild the way they are in Standard. And then Hall of Faming won't affect me at all, ever again, which is an extremely appealing thought in and of itself. Plus there's a lot more decks that I like that exist in Wild and aren't in danger of being nerfed - I still go back there whenever I get a Druid quest to play Jade Druid, for instance, and I can things like classic Handlock, or Control Mage with Jaina, or N'Zoth Paladin, or Odd Warrior (which thankfully Doctor Boom can still be put in post-nerf, even). And just in general, a format that changes less because Blizzard pays less attention to it sounds like an improvement, even if there are probably some more OP things to deal with running around.
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    Default Re: Hearthstone 23: The Evil League of EVIL

    Quote Originally Posted by Zevox View Post
    Luna's Pocket Galaxy - No comment, I haven't seen much of it, and don't have it, so I really have no idea how warranted this is.
    Very. It's crazy tempo, and reducing all minions to 1 mana lets you do some stupid stuff.
    I'm getting tired of 1 mana Alexstraza suddenly dropping me from full health into lethal range. Or 1 mana Kalecgos discovering Pyroblast, meaning your opponent just played a 1 mana 4/12 that deals 10 to your face. Or both at the same time, along with their good ol buddy 1 mana Antonidas.
    Or in short, stupid stuff.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zevox View Post
    Doctor Boom - Goddamn it. Part of me thinks that "just" a mana nerf like this might not kill him or Control Warrior, since high-cost Hero cards have worked elsewhere (although Boom is not as potent as a Jaina or Gul'dan, and at cost 9 you can't even really do anything to the board on the turn you play him, so there's some worry there for sure). Another part of me doesn't even care at this point, because even if Control Warrior survives this, I'm pretty fed up with Blizzard's approach to balance.
    As another control warrior player, I don't find myself particularly worried about this change. It *is* a nerf, but we rarely had the ability to substantially affect the board on the same turn to begin with - there aren't many 2-3 mana options in Control Warrior that have substantial board impact (Snip Snap or your Boom hero power were about it). At 9 mana it can still be combo'd with shield slam, which is the big one. The big impact is on when you can get Boom out, but I don't think that'll kill him.

  8. - Top - End - #818
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    Default Re: Hearthstone 23: The Evil League of EVIL

    Quote Originally Posted by Rynjin View Post
    But yes, I definitely think they should start rotating the Classic set, and maybe even the Basic set.
    And then new players are left with not a single usable card in standard. >_>

  9. - Top - End - #819
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    Default Re: Hearthstone 23: The Evil League of EVIL

    Quote Originally Posted by Resileaf View Post
    And then new players are left with not a single usable card in standard. >_>
    Read literally the next line.

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    Default Re: Hearthstone 23: The Evil League of EVIL

    Quote Originally Posted by Rynjin View Post
    Read literally the next line.
    It seemed like to be part of a different idea and concept, so I didn't think it was a follow-up.
    Not that it changes much, if the classic/basic cards are not in the current rotation, new players have nothing.
    Last edited by Resileaf; 2019-08-22 at 09:05 PM.

  11. - Top - End - #821
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    Default Re: Hearthstone 23: The Evil League of EVIL

    Quote Originally Posted by Resileaf View Post
    It seemed like to be part of a different idea and concept, so I didn't think it was a follow-up.
    Not that it changes much, if the classic/basic cards are not in the current rotation, new players have nothing.
    The idea I lay out in that post is that the Classic/Basic set changes, not that there IS no Classic/Basic set.

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    Default Re: Hearthstone 23: The Evil League of EVIL

    I have succumbed to the dark side and made an armor druid deck in wild. I managed to get the combo off in my first game after getting super lucky with my draws. My opponent sat silently for about a minute before conceding. I am enjoying this far too much.
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    Default Re: Hearthstone 23: The Evil League of EVIL

    Quote Originally Posted by Stevesciguy View Post
    I have succumbed to the dark side and made an armor druid deck in wild. I managed to get the combo off in my first game after getting super lucky with my draws. My opponent sat silently for about a minute before conceding. I am enjoying this far too much.
    What's an "armor Druid?"
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    Default Re: Hearthstone 23: The Evil League of EVIL

    Quote Originally Posted by Zevox View Post
    What's an "armor Druid?"
    Using Linecracker + BEEES 2 + Earthen Scales 2(with discounts), you can get a bit over 2500 armor. Which makes it rather difficult to lose unless your opponent is playing a deck with an instant win condition like mechathun or the paladin death knight
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  15. - Top - End - #825
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    Default Re: Hearthstone 23: The Evil League of EVIL

    Quote Originally Posted by Rynjin View Post
    The idea I lay out in that post is that the Classic/Basic set changes, not that there IS no Classic/Basic set.
    The problem there is that you're forcing players who weren't around for those Wild sets (or have simply dusted those cards) to re-buy them, as each expansion would open up holes in your Classic collection as half of it rotates out and cards you don't own rotate in.

    I suppose the solution would be to treat it like Hall of Faming. They rotate out based on rarity - so X Commons, Y Rares, Z Epics, etc. You get the dust for them, then you have the exact amount of dust required to craft the cards that are rotating in. If you don't want those cards, you can spend them on something else. Everybody wins.

  16. - Top - End - #826
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    I was wondering if this would work but the way it is programmed you won't ever get a legendary you already have right? So if you have every legendary from the doomsday set except for Dr. Boom you will always get Dr. Boom which you can disenchant for full dust once the nerf occurs. That way if you happen to have a full legendary set you can basically get any legendary or 4 epics from a boomsday pack as long as you already have all of that sets legendaries.
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  17. - Top - End - #827
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    Default Re: Hearthstone 23: The Evil League of EVIL

    Quote Originally Posted by Rodin View Post
    The problem there is that you're forcing players who weren't around for those Wild sets (or have simply dusted those cards) to re-buy them, as each expansion would open up holes in your Classic collection as half of it rotates out and cards you don't own rotate in.

    I suppose the solution would be to treat it like Hall of Faming. They rotate out based on rarity - so X Commons, Y Rares, Z Epics, etc. You get the dust for them, then you have the exact amount of dust required to craft the cards that are rotating in. If you don't want those cards, you can spend them on something else. Everybody wins.
    The solution is to rotate the entire classic set and keep it as "Classic" and then create a new standard, baseline set of cards every Year Of The X that everyone just gets.

    Also, this is a crazy idea they'd never do for obvious (money) reasons, but... reprint cards. Sometimes a set needs Faerie Dragon in it, so you put Faerie Dragon in the set.
    Last edited by LaZodiac; 2019-08-23 at 09:45 AM.


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    Default Re: Hearthstone 23: The Evil League of EVIL

    On the one hand, I know when I was starting out I put almost all of my gold into classic packs because of the promise they wouldn't rotate ever. I'm sure others are in the same boat, and not wanting to break that promise is likely a large part of what is keeping Blizzard from doing something more dramatic. Like if you rotate the basic/classic set, to compensate you either need to give a ridiculous amount of dust (similar to hall of fame, but for -all- the cards), which is unsustainable especially if stuff will be rotating out and back in... or give everyone the entire basic/classic set for free, which then not only means new players aren't spending money on those packs, but also makes tavern brawl and quest rewards that grant packs that much less appealing, so likely need to switch those to provide current standard set packs, which in turn costs blizzard more money (in theory).



    Though honestly, as someone who has spent too much money on this game, I really wish they would make getting a standard collection much more manageable, and find a better way to milk the whales. Like legitimately, why are we not getting a new 10 dollar hero every month? We've got golden animated cards, why not platinum full-card art cards? Alternate portraits for existing heroes? Unique emotes? Entrance animations? Death Animations? Mana Crystal Shapes? Game Boards? Widgets/customizations to add to your end of the game board?

    What about game modes that encourage players to buy more packs between expansions? Sealed Draft format where you have to buy a big card bundle, and play using decks you build from whatever you pull from that bundle for a week/month/whatever. Always available brawliseum or *gasp* a tournament mode for risk/reward gameplay.


    Hearthstone makes money hand over fist selling 3 expansions a year, but is slowly turning off its player base because not everyone can afford to keep a steady stream of 150+ dollars into a game every 3 months (or even if they can afford it, may want to spend some of that money elsewhere). It should honestly be possible to maintain a 90%+ regular collection with a fraction of that (40-50 dollars an expansion). I feel like if they could nail that price point, they'd get a larger audience of players actually paying for the game, and could make up any revenue shortfall by giving players who want to spend more more options for cool cosmetic things.
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    Default Re: Hearthstone 23: The Evil League of EVIL

    Hey here's an idea: classic pack cards are so outclassed that classic pack as reward isn't incentive to anything anymore. Make it a pack from the most recent set.


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  20. - Top - End - #830
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    Default Re: Hearthstone 23: The Evil League of EVIL

    Control warrior nerfs didn't go nearly far enough imho; but at least they put in a partial nerf.
    Otherwise generally satisfied with the changes.

    I'm still concerned about the power creep I'm feeling from this latest expansion.
    A neat custom class for 3.5 system
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    An alternate craft point system I made for 3.5
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    Default Re: Hearthstone 23: The Evil League of EVIL

    Quote Originally Posted by Stevesciguy View Post
    Using Linecracker + BEEES 2 + Earthen Scales 2(with discounts), you can get a bit over 2500 armor. Which makes it rather difficult to lose unless your opponent is playing a deck with an instant win condition like mechathun or the paladin death knight
    This is hilarious. Cheesy, probably frustrating to play against, but hilarious.

    I found myself up against it today while completing a 'play warlock cards' quest. As it happened, I had Rin in my deck because she's a fun card to play. Turns out, not easy for the druid to get the combo off when being pressured enough that they can't keep their deck from exploding.

    What is the preferred method for discounting? Thaurissan? Dreampetal Florist? Maybe some innervates?

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    Default Re: Hearthstone 23: The Evil League of EVIL

    Quote Originally Posted by AmberVael View Post
    This is hilarious. Cheesy, probably frustrating to play against, but hilarious.

    I found myself up against it today while completing a 'play warlock cards' quest. As it happened, I had Rin in my deck because she's a fun card to play. Turns out, not easy for the druid to get the combo off when being pressured enough that they can't keep their deck from exploding.

    What is the preferred method for discounting? Thaurissan? Dreampetal Florist? Maybe some innervates?
    Personally, I'm using Dreampetal Florist, but any of them work. Floop's Glorious Goop is also an option.

    Dreampetal is nice since you can play it as soon as you have Linecracker alone in your hand. Thaurissan isn't quite as good, because you'll either need all the cards in hand, or keep it alive long enough for it to trigger multiple times. Goop has the issue that you need an innervate/coin or discount in order to get it going, since Linecracker + BEEES + Goop is 11 mana.

    I imagine that if you have multiple of those, the consistency goes up nicely. Multiples also makes the deck less fragile against combo ruiners.

    I've had to make a budget variant, but at low ranks, it's doing pretty well so far, against a variety of deck types. Only game I've lost was against a dragon priest.

    Edit: and now also a resurrect priest. I'm not sure whether this deck doesn't perform well against value priests, or whether it just doesn't perform well when two pieces of the combo are in the bottom 3 cards of the deck

    Edit 2: yeah, this deck really doesn't perform well when Linecracker is THE LAST CARD IN YOUR DECK

    Ugh, 2 games in a row...
    Last edited by Stevesciguy; 2019-08-23 at 02:21 PM.
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    Default Re: Hearthstone 23: The Evil League of EVIL

    Quote Originally Posted by Seerow View Post
    It should honestly be possible to maintain a 90%+ regular collection with a fraction of that (40-50 dollars an expansion). I feel like if they could nail that price point, they'd get a larger audience of players actually paying for the game, and could make up any revenue shortfall by giving players who want to spend more more options for cool cosmetic things.
    It is. If you only dust the duplicate and golden cards and only craft missing common/rares/epics at the season end to avoid opening a duplicate of something you crafted you can have 90% of the playable cards in a set with ~110 packs above and beyond the tavern/ladder/login pack/card rewards. That's easy with the $50 preorder, and plausible for an obsessive F2P.

    Now a 90% complete by dust value collection is a more expensive story.
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    Default Re: Hearthstone 23: The Evil League of EVIL

    Quote Originally Posted by Psionic Dog View Post
    It is. If you only dust the duplicate and golden cards and only craft missing common/rares/epics at the season end to avoid opening a duplicate of something you crafted you can have 90% of the playable cards in a set with ~110 packs above and beyond the tavern/ladder/login pack/card rewards. That's easy with the $50 preorder, and plausible for an obsessive F2P.

    Now a 90% complete by dust value collection is a more expensive story.
    Yeah should have been more specific. When I say 90%, I mean being able to make most decks, so 90% of legendaries and epics. Honestly 100% of Commons and rares should be a gimme for anyone actively playing the game.
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    Default Re: Hearthstone 23: The Evil League of EVIL

    Quote Originally Posted by Stevesciguy View Post
    Using Linecracker + BEEES 2 + Earthen Scales 2(with discounts), you can get a bit over 2500 armor. Which makes it rather difficult to lose unless your opponent is playing a deck with an instant win condition like mechathun or the paladin death knight
    Huh. Well, I guess they'll have to address the Linecracker + Bees! interaction after all then, even though it hasn't taken off in standard.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hamste View Post
    I was wondering if this would work but the way it is programmed you won't ever get a legendary you already have right? So if you have every legendary from the doomsday set except for Dr. Boom you will always get Dr. Boom which you can disenchant for full dust once the nerf occurs. That way if you happen to have a full legendary set you can basically get any legendary or 4 epics from a boomsday pack as long as you already have all of that sets legendaries.
    If you somehow had a full set of legendaries from Boomsday and were near the legendary pity timer on Boomsday packs, sure, I guess you could do that. Sounds like it would be pretty hard to pull off though, unless you spent a lot of money, which kind of negates the point I'd think.

    Quote Originally Posted by Seerow View Post
    Like legitimately, why are we not getting a new 10 dollar hero every month?
    Because that did not sell well enough for them to keep doing it at all, obviously. Otherwise that first batch wouldn't have been the only ones they ever did that way. Which doesn't surprise me frankly, 10 dollars for something that minor seems ridiculous to me. If they were 1 or 2 dollars I'd probably buy them, maybe as much as 5 for one that I thought was especially good (don't think any of those first three would hit that for me, but if Elise were available that way I may go for that), but not 10.
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    Default Re: Hearthstone 23: The Evil League of EVIL

    Quote Originally Posted by Zevox View Post
    Huh. Well, I guess they'll have to address the Linecracker + Bees! interaction after all then, even though it hasn't taken off in standard.
    I can't really think of any ways you could abuse it in standard. I don't think you could give it charge, and earthen scales is wild only, so I doubt you'll see it much in standard.

    That said, I wouldn't blame them if they patched it. I highly doubt that they intended overkill to function that way. I really hope they don't patch it, though. I'm having a lot of fun playing it, and it doesn't really feel broken. Or at least, not anymore broken than any other combo deck.
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    Default Re: Hearthstone 23: The Evil League of EVIL

    Quote Originally Posted by Stevesciguy View Post
    I can't really think of any ways you could abuse it in standard. I don't think you could give it charge, and earthen scales is wild only, so I doubt you'll see it much in standard.

    That said, I wouldn't blame them if they patched it. I highly doubt that they intended overkill to function that way. I really hope they don't patch it, though. I'm having a lot of fun playing it, and it doesn't really feel broken. Or at least, not anymore broken than any other combo deck.
    In standard it would basically have to be "play Linecracker, if the opponent doesn't kill it or put a taunt in the way immediately they risk just auto-losing to Bees!" Definitely something that could come up if they print anything in the next year and a half that could give it charge or grant Druid an effect based on the attack score of a minion, too.
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    Default Re: Hearthstone 23: The Evil League of EVIL

    I feel like there probably won't be anything that grants it Charge, they've gotten really skittish about that, and now that Rush exists, it covers most of what Team 5 likes about Charge.
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    Default Re: Hearthstone 23: The Evil League of EVIL

    Quote Originally Posted by Zevox View Post
    In standard it would basically have to be "play Linecracker, if the opponent doesn't kill it or put a taunt in the way immediately they risk just auto-losing to Bees!" Definitely something that could come up if they print anything in the next year and a half that could give it charge or grant Druid an effect based on the attack score of a minion, too.
    Seems doubtful then; by developer's own admissions, Charge is a very limiting design space, mentioning even Stonetusk Boar can cause problems every once in a while. Hence why we're seeing so many new cards having Rush instead.

    Not certain about giving a minion an effect based on it's attack value, usually with cards like Savagery it's based off of the Druid's Attack power. I can see a Druid spell that reads "Give a Minion Attack equal to your Hero's Attack", but not the other way around.
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    Default Re: Hearthstone 23: The Evil League of EVIL

    Quote Originally Posted by Stevesciguy View Post
    Personally, I'm using Dreampetal Florist, but any of them work. Floop's Glorious Goop is also an option.

    Dreampetal is nice since you can play it as soon as you have Linecracker alone in your hand. Thaurissan isn't quite as good, because you'll either need all the cards in hand, or keep it alive long enough for it to trigger multiple times. Goop has the issue that you need an innervate/coin or discount in order to get it going, since Linecracker + BEEES + Goop is 11 mana.

    I imagine that if you have multiple of those, the consistency goes up nicely. Multiples also makes the deck less fragile against combo ruiners.

    I've had to make a budget variant, but at low ranks, it's doing pretty well so far, against a variety of deck types. Only game I've lost was against a dragon priest.

    Edit: and now also a resurrect priest. I'm not sure whether this deck doesn't perform well against value priests, or whether it just doesn't perform well when two pieces of the combo are in the bottom 3 cards of the deck

    Edit 2: yeah, this deck really doesn't perform well when Linecracker is THE LAST CARD IN YOUR DECK

    Ugh, 2 games in a row...
    Could you post your list? I never really liked druid, this seems worth a try.

    Edit: I have been playing a mirror match for the last fifty minutes or so. Oh boy.
    Last edited by Tvtyrant; 2019-08-24 at 12:11 AM.
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