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    RedSorcererGirl

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    Default Elanīs happy ending

    Iīve saw in other forums people saying that the illusion was Elanīs happy ending, but I donīt think that fits the prophecy. The Oracle made it seem that only Elan would get a happy ending, but all party members got theirs through the illusion

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    Default Re: Elanīs happy ending

    It wasn't the prophecy's happy ending because it wasn't the end of the story, which is what Elan asked about. There's also an external argument against that interpretation, in that The Giant said the point of the prophecy was to assure the reader that the story would still have a mostly happy ending even if things got quite dark or bleak while getting there.

    Note however that the prophecy doesn't suggest that only Elan will get a happy ending, just that he would personally consider it a happy ending. It's hard to imagine an ending that is only happy for Elan and not for any of the people he cares about.
    Last edited by hroþila; 2019-04-05 at 10:25 AM.
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    Default Re: Elanīs happy ending

    Illusion is not a happy ending in anyway.
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    Default Re: Elanīs happy ending

    Quote Originally Posted by hroþila View Post
    It wasn't the prophecy's happy ending because it wasn't the end of the story, which is what Elan asked about. There's also an external argument against that interpretation, in that The Giant said the point of the prophecy was to assure the reader that the story would still have a mostly happy ending even if things got quite dark or bleak while getting there.

    Note however that the prophecy doesn't suggest that only Elan will get a happy ending, just that he would personally consider it a happy ending. It's hard to imagine an ending that is only happy for Elan and not for any of the people he cares about.
    Granted, i’d argue the prophecy does imply AT LEAST ONE Order member will not get a happy ending, but I get your point.

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    Default Re: Elanīs happy ending

    Quote Originally Posted by woweedd View Post
    Granted, i’d argue the prophecy does imply AT LEAST ONE Order member will not get a happy ending, but I get your point.
    That person is probably the one who has a "Will die before the end of the year" prophecy attached to them.

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    Default Re: Elanīs happy ending

    Quote Originally Posted by hroþila View Post
    It wasn't the prophecy's happy ending because it wasn't the end of the story, which is what Elan asked about. There's also an external argument against that interpretation, in that The Giant said the point of the prophecy was to assure the reader that the story would still have a mostly happy ending even if things got quite dark or bleak while getting there.

    Note however that the prophecy doesn't suggest that only Elan will get a happy ending, just that he would personally consider it a happy ending. It's hard to imagine an ending that is only happy for Elan and not for any of the people he cares about.
    Yes, this. The Oracle didn't say "you will have a happy moment and believe for that moment that the story is over," thus Girard's illusion had nothing to do with it. The Oracle didn't, despite what a number of people seem to have read, say, "Not telling for you, but I will say it'll be awful for the rest of the Order."

    Will this story have a happy ending?
    :oracle: Yes--for you, at least.

    The Oracle's answer was as positive an answer as he could have given without saying "I am eradicating all drama and tension from the rest of the story."

    The Oracle implied that not everyone would get a happy ending--but that's already been fulfilled; Kubota, Therkla, and Thanh, just off the top of my head, got sad endings. Pretty sure Xykon will as well, and while Redcloak's ending may be mixed, I will be very surprised if it's happy. Belkar and Vaarsuvius may also get unhappy endings, but if all the members of the Order get happy endings (somehow; Belkar's still gonna die and stay dead), that's perfectly compatible with what the Oracle said.

    The Oracle's answer is also not compatible with Elan being happy when he dies or Elan going to the Chaotic Good afterlife; neither of those would be happy endings to the story, and Elan is least likely of all the characters in the story to have meant a classically sad ending that Obi-Wan Kenobi could argue was somehow happy.
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    This, in a nutshell.
    Yes, exactly.

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    Default Re: Elanīs happy ending

    Quote Originally Posted by woweedd View Post
    Granted, i’d argue the prophecy does imply AT LEAST ONE Order member will not get a happy ending, but I get your point.
    I'd argue that the Oracle hates the guts of those filthy mammals from the Order and that from his perspective, a happy ending would have them all die horribly, thus the need for specification.
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    Default Re: Elanīs happy ending

    Quote Originally Posted by Cazero View Post
    I'd argue that the Oracle hates the guts of those filthy mammals from the Order and that from his perspective, a happy ending would have them all die horribly, thus the need for specification.
    The Oracle isn't racist, he's just curmudgeonly. You're thinking of Gannji. That guy really had a lot of... ah, why be generous?, he's a bigot.
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    Default Re: Elanīs happy ending

    The Oracle specifically hates Roy, Durkon and Belkar. I don't think he has any strong feelings toward the others.

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    Default Re: Elanīs happy ending

    People have this need to try and make it seem like there's some kind of twists to the Oracles prophecies even when there aren't.

    We've been shown that when he predicts something seriously (as opposed to doing something just to be a jerk because people are annoying him) the outcome is both true to the letter and the spirit of what was asked of him and his reply.

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    Default Re: Elanīs happy ending

    Elan, Haley, and Roy will make it through. For all of them to be happy, V and Durkon gets past the threshold.

    Belkar? I ditto.

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    d6 Re: Elanīs happy ending

    Quote Originally Posted by Aveline View Post
    The Oracle isn't racist, he's just curmudgeonly. You're thinking of Gannji. That guy really had a lot of... ah, why be generous?, he's a bigot.
    That is straight out savage. Made me laugh
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    Default Re: Elanīs happy ending

    Quote Originally Posted by understatement View Post
    Elan, Haley, and Roy will make it through. For all of them to be happy, V and Durkon gets past the threshold.

    Belkar? I ditto.
    You think Belkar surviving is necessary to Elan's happy ending? Why?
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    Default Re: Elanīs happy ending

    I suspect that we can be fairly sure Elan and probably Haley will survive the story. A classic story would have the two lovers survive and thrive, so would probably be a requirement for a happy ending for Elan.

    The illusion was probably more of a red herring than anything else. If it was revealed that that was the happy ending, a lot of loyal fans would be very upset. And I don't think Rich would do that to them.

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    ClericGirl

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    Default Re: Elanīs happy ending

    Quote Originally Posted by xroads View Post
    I suspect that we can be fairly sure Elan and probably Haley will survive the story.
    Haley is instrumental to Elan's happy ending.
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    Default Re: Elanīs happy ending

    Quote Originally Posted by Resileaf View Post
    That person is probably the one who has a "Will die before the end of the year" prophecy attached to them.
    Probably V too. Maybe Durkon or Roy, but I doubt it. I can't see anything permanently bad happening to Haley, and Elan still having a happy ending.

    Who else does Elan care about who's still on this side of the grass? He pitys and detests his father, and I don't think Geoff or Ian's death would be enough to ruin a happy ending for Elan.

    I see we already covered the above. Would V dying mean an unhappy ending for Elan? I don't think it would. And related to V dying, I'm curious how Belkar will be connected to it, per Belkar's question to the Oracle.
    Last edited by Ghosty; 2019-04-05 at 04:06 PM.

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    Default Re: Elanīs happy ending

    Quote Originally Posted by Ghosty View Post
    Probably V too. Maybe Durkon or Roy, but I doubt it. I can't see anything permanently bad happening to Haley, and Elan still having a happy ending.

    Who else does Elan care about who's still on this side of the grass? He pitys and detests his father, and I don't think Geoff or Ian's death would be enough to ruin a happy ending for Elan.
    If Roy and/or Durkon died heroically, I think Elan would still be fine.

    Currently I think V is going to survive and live a life of penance and redemption. And being an elf, maybe even live long enough to forgive himself.

    A somber ending for V, but would probably still qualify as a happy ending for Elan.

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    Default Re: Elanīs happy ending

    Elan's happy ending means that Haley also gets one, and Roy also has a high chance of getting a happy ending. Durkon and V are both on the list but much lower, while Belkar is probably half-irrelevant (it's nice if he lives, but not much of a problem if he dies).

    As for the rest of the people...
    Julio won't suddenly die, or if he does it will be heroically, and Tarquin may defeated but odds are not killed. The remnants of Azure City presumably will do fine.
    Even those are speculative though, and anything more will be progressively worse.
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    WolfInSheepsClothing

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    Default Re: Elanīs happy ending

    Elan's really attached to Roy so I think that he would consider him dying to be an unhappy ending. Looking at the shared illusion, it's pretty clear that Belkar dying is considered compatible with a happy ending. Both Durkon and V are alive. Durkon's more prominent but that's likely because Roy considers Durkon his best friend.

    Off topic but does anyone else kinda hope Haley and V's friendship gets more scenes at some point? that would be cool

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    ClericGirl

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    Default Re: Elanīs happy ending

    Quote Originally Posted by CriticalFailure View Post
    Off topic but does anyone else kinda hope Haley and V's friendship gets more scenes at some point? that would be cool
    Yes! I think it would be beneficial for V to talk to someone a bit more..pragmatic than Roy. I understand the distance though, ever since the events during the separation things have been tense.

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    AssassinGuy

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    Default Re: Elanīs happy ending

    Quote Originally Posted by Ghosty View Post
    Probably V too. Maybe Durkon or Roy, but I doubt it. I can't see anything permanently bad happening to Haley, and Elan still having a happy ending.

    Who else does Elan care about who's still on this side of the grass? He pitys and detests his father, and I don't think Geoff or Ian's death would be enough to ruin a happy ending for Elan.

    I see we already covered the above. Would V dying mean an unhappy ending for Elan? I don't think it would. And related to V dying, I'm curious how Belkar will be connected to it, per Belkar's question to the Oracle.
    V's death was one of the several that Belkar asked if he might possibly cause. Specifically, he asked if he would directly or indirectly cause the death of Roy, Miko or Windstriker, too. The Oracle's only reference to V was to say "And as for the elf..." before Belkar stabbed him. I think that was just to get Belkar so wound up that he would stab him and activate the Mark of Justice. The Oracle knew exactly what to say to push him over the edge. (He'd foreseen it, after all.)

    I don't think V will die after all. Then again, I could be wrong. It might be an heroic sacrifice.

    Quote Originally Posted by understatement View Post
    Elan, Haley, and Roy will make it through. For all of them to be happy, V and Durkon gets past the threshold.

    Belkar? I ditto.
    Quote Originally Posted by Fyraltari View Post
    You think Belkar surviving is necessary to Elan's happy ending? Why?
    I have this feeling that Understatement meant to say, "Belkar? I dunno."
    Quote Originally Posted by Grey_Wolf_c View Post
    Also, everything Darth Paul just said.
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    Default Re: Elanīs happy ending

    Quote Originally Posted by Darth Paul View Post
    V's death was one of the several that Belkar asked if he might possibly cause. Specifically, he asked if he would directly or indirectly cause the death of Roy, Miko or Windstriker, too. The Oracle's only reference to V was to say "And as for the elf..." before Belkar stabbed him. I think that was just to get Belkar so wound up that he would stab him and activate the Mark of Justice. The Oracle knew exactly what to say to push him over the edge. (He'd foreseen it, after all.)

    I don't think V will die after all. Then again, I could be wrong. It might be an heroic sacrifice....
    I kept interpreting "of any of the following" as 'all of the following.' Probably because the Oracle had a convoluted reason why Belkar was responsible for all of the ones he specifically talked about. Which doesn't though imply that V also gets killed by Belkar, despite being in the list of names Belkar was asking about. The prophecy already came true when he caused any of their deaths, like Roy's.

    (Yes, I know we've probably hashed this out ad nauseam already.)

    I like your suggestion that the Oracle worded it that way to incite Belkar to kill him.

    I too am curious what Haley would say about learning about Familicide, etc...

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    Default Re: Elanīs happy ending

    The Oracle did not frame his words to convince Belkar to kill him, seeing as his last words are "I wasn't really buying that myself". That was just him making a half-hearted attempt at preventing his death, because his death was the only one that the prophecy was really refering to. Roy and Miko's deaths were not caused by Belkar.
    Last edited by Resileaf; 2019-04-05 at 09:19 PM.

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    AssassinGuy

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    Default Re: Elanīs happy ending

    Well, he knew Belkar was going to stab him to death (his assistants were on standby and appeared almost immediately) and he knew the reason why; arguably, he figured he might as well yank Belkar's chain a little. He knew there was no way to prevent his own death. That's what being the Oracle is all about, after all- foreseeing the future.
    Quote Originally Posted by Grey_Wolf_c View Post
    Also, everything Darth Paul just said.
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    Default Re: Elanīs happy ending

    Yeah, Elan would not consider any world where his girlfriend or best friend are dead to be happy, so Roy and Haley's survival is pretty much guaranteed. Durkon, also pretty high odds. V and Belker...Not so much.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ghosty View Post
    I kept interpreting "of any of the following" as 'all of the following.' Probably because the Oracle had a convoluted reason why Belkar was responsible for all of the ones he specifically talked about. Which doesn't though imply that V also gets killed by Belkar, despite being in the list of names Belkar was asking about. The prophecy already came true when he caused any of their deaths, like Roy's.

    (Yes, I know we've probably hashed this out ad nauseam already.)

    I like your suggestion that the Oracle worded it that way to incite Belkar to kill him.

    I too am curious what Haley would say about learning about Familicide, etc...
    :oracle: Well, technically, if you define death as a prolonged stay in one of the Outer Planes...The elf will be spending some time there in the near-future, and it was partly Belkar's fault.
    Last edited by woweedd; 2019-04-05 at 10:18 PM.

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    Default Re: Elanīs happy ending

    Elan would be perfectly happy with an ending where he heroically sacrificed himself so that all his friends could live.

    That would be a happy ending...for him, at least.

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    Default Re: Elanīs happy ending

    Quote Originally Posted by Emmit Svenson View Post
    Elan would be perfectly happy with an ending where he heroically sacrificed himself so that all his friends could live.

    That would be a happy ending...for him, at least.
    Well, all his friend aren't going to live, so that's not going to happy. But, really, I don't see how Elan as the type who is happy about something like that, that's Durkon. Elan would do such a thing but he's not the person who is happy to do it, and as people have already mentioned, and ending in which Elan is not with Haley is not one that is happy for him.
    Last edited by Rrmcklin; 2019-04-06 at 12:33 AM.

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    Default Re: Elanīs happy ending

    Quote Originally Posted by Rrmcklin View Post
    Well, all his friend aren't going to live, so that's not going to happy. But, really, I don't see how Elan as the type who is happy about something like that, that's Durkon. Elan would do such a thing but he's not the person who is happy to do it, and as people have already mentioned, and ending in which Elan is not with Haley is not one that is happy for him.
    He wouldn’t be happy to DO it, but I think it’s fair to say he would be happy with the results. Especially since we known he is especially genre-savy and has a love for putting together a good story. This also works with the oracles phrasing since it would leave several of his friends heartbroken, especially Haley

    Do I think this is going to happen? Ŋ\_(ツ)_/Ŋ But I definitely think it can fit

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    RedWizardGuy

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    Default Re: Elanīs happy ending

    I would say a happy ending for Elan includes most of the OOTS living.

    It absolutely includes Haley...it highly probably includes Roy...and I would say one of Durkon or V needs to make it.

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    Default Re: Elanīs happy ending

    Quote Originally Posted by Emmit Svenson View Post
    Elan would be perfectly happy with an ending where he heroically sacrificed himself so that all his friends could live.

    That would be a happy ending...for him, at least.
    I disagree. Even if that resulted in every problem being solved and everybody else being allowed to live happy lives, such an ending wouldn't usually be considered a happy ending, it would be bittersweet.
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