Elan´s happy ending

[Kish]

Haley got an answer to only the spirit of what she was asking; Nale wasn't a horse and her decision was never whether to try to examine his teeth.

[understatement]

It's to be ambiguous so it's also unclear to the audience, until the right time.

[Rrmcklin]

It's to be ambiguous so it's also unclear to the audience, until the right time.

Basically this. If you make it obvious to the characters exactly what's going to happen and why, you're basically spoiling some of the biggest moments of your story to the audience.

As long as you can look back after what has happened has happened and can go "Oh, yeah, that works" the prophecy has done its job.

Admittedly, I might not remember the exact wording of some of his predications (Haley's for one), but my main point was that people keep trying to argue that there's going to be some kind of twist that basically invalidates what we were actually told and, no, we have no real reason to think that based on what's actually happened with the prophecies.

[Goblin_Priest]

Maybe the Oracle was being a smartass again and was referring to him hooking up with Haley?

The thing about a happy ending is that... ...well... ...it's an ending.

Does Elan plan on going to any massage parlor...? Some of those offer happy endings...

[KorvinStarmast]

Does Elan plan on going to any massage parlor...? Some of those offer happy endings...

The joke about action on the back of the purple worm already covered this ground. Scroll up a bit.

[Rrmcklin]

Elan asked about the ending of this story, that's pretty unambiguous.

And I'm not sure how much it'll really matter, but I'd also like to point out that a happy ending doesn't mean that everything will remain perfect just that, by the end of the story, things will end in a way that Elan (and by extension the audience) will consider happy for the time.

Similarly, ideas that go "Elan and Haley die, but the world is saved so they consider that happy" are missing the point of why the proclamation was made in the first place. Because I believe that Mr. Burlew is on record of saying that what ultimately matters is the Order of the Stick, not the World. The World only matters in as much as that's where the Order of the Stick and the things and people they care about live.

So I find myself highly doubtful that Mr. Burlew would consider an ending in which they're all dead but the world is saved "happy" for his (and by extension Elan's) purposes.

[Wizard_Lizard]

Does Elan plan on going to any massage parlor...? Some of those offer happy endings...

what does a massage parlour have to do with it?

[Rrmcklin]

what does a massage parlour have to do with it?

They explained at the very end there. Or are you just not familiar with the term "happy ending" in that context?

[Goblin_Priest]

The joke about action on the back of the purple worm already covered this ground. Scroll up a bit.

I saw it, wasn't satisfied. The colloquial meaning of the expression might vary from place to place, but imo, that doesn't qualify for the terms used. A quick google lookup of the expression does seem to suggest my initial impression that is has a very specific meaning.

Elan asked about the ending of this story, that's pretty unambiguous.

And I'm not sure how much it'll really matter, but I'd also like to point out that a happy ending doesn't mean that everything will remain perfect just that, by the end of the story, things will end in a way that Elan (and by extension the audience) will consider happy for the time.

Similarly, ideas that go "Elan and Haley die, but the world is saved so they consider that happy" are missing the point of why the proclamation was made in the first place. Because I believe that Mr. Burlew is on record of saying that what ultimately matters is the Order of the Stick, not the World. The World only matters in as much as that's where the Order of the Stick and the things and people they care about live.

So I find myself highly doubtful that Mr. Burlew would consider an ending in which they're all dead but the world is saved "happy" for his (and by extension Elan's) purposes.

Well, when Durkon learned he'd return posthumously, he was overjoyed. That was basically "his happy ending". So... to some people, death is not an obstacle.

I highly doubt Elan or Haley will die, though. Elan isn't Durkon, after all, and he seems to enjoy living. I can see him being happy despite everyone else dying, however.

what does a massage parlour have to do with it?

They explained at the very end there. Or are you just not familiar with the term "happy ending" in that context?

Eh, yea. I'm not gonna actually explain it. If you really don't know what it is in the context, at most I'll offer this link: http://lmgtfy.com/?q=massage+happy+ending

[woweedd]

I saw it, wasn't satisfied. The colloquial meaning of the expression might vary from place to place, but imo, that doesn't qualify for the terms used. A quick google lookup of the expression does seem to suggest my initial impression that is has a very specific meaning.



Well, when Durkon learned he'd return posthumously, he was overjoyed. That was basically "his happy ending". So... to some people, death is not an obstacle.

I highly doubt Elan or Haley will die, though. Elan isn't Durkon, after all, and he seems to enjoy living. I can see him being happy despite everyone else dying, however.





Eh, yea. I'm not gonna actually explain it. If you really don't know what it is in the context, at most I'll offer this link: http://lmgtfy.com/?q=massage+happy+ending

What about Elan suggests he’d be happy with everyone else dead? He’s second only to Celia in the “All-Loving Hero” department.

[Goblin_Priest]

What about Elan suggests he’d be happy with everyone else dead? He’s second only to Celia in the “All-Loving Hero” department.

Because everyone dies eventually. If a happy ending can't exist with dead people, a happy ending can't exist at all.

"Ending" is rather undefined, though. How "long" does an ending last? When does it start? When does it end?

If everyone survives, and he lives happily for another 60 years, and then he dies of some agonizing disease. Is that a happy ending? Or not? Because, again, everyone dies eventually, including himself. There's nothing happy about an agonizing death. But if it lasts a week at most, and followed 60 years of exquisite delight? Does it average out as positive?

If Roy or any other dies, of course there'd be mourning. But if they saved the world, well Roy would have gotten to be the hero, save the day, and end up in paradise. His girlfriend is extraplanar... she could go visit him there. Roy'd have saved the world, broken the family curse, and accomplished everything he set out to do, earning himself the best retirement deal possible (paradise). Is that so sad? Elan could quite possibly just come to accept that, and move on, and live happily ever after with Haley.

Because that's just what every normal person does. Almost every living adult has lost a loved one. And almost all of them just end up learning to cope with it, as a natural and inevitable part of life. And they do so without having the certitude that the person is in literal paradise and access to high level magic to communicate or visit said person. If the average person can do it, Elan certainly can as well.

[Sir_Norbert]

Similarly, ideas that go "Elan and Haley die, but the world is saved so they consider that happy" are missing the point of why the proclamation was made in the first place. Because I believe that Mr. Burlew is on record of saying that what ultimately matters is the Order of the Stick, not the World. The World only matters in as much as that's where the Order of the Stick and the things and people they care about live.

Yes, I'm not going to dig the quote up right now, but I do remember him saying something along those lines.

One of Rich's less stellar moments, in my book. The author doesn't get to decide what aspects of the story I as the reader care about.

[Kish]

Elan asked if the story will have a happy ending, not if he would be happy at the story's end. In my opinion, that neither bends to "Elan is happy in the afterlife" nor requires "none of the Order dies." It means a classically happy, as opposed to tragic, ending, which allows for some main characters to die, but not Elan (because it's a happy ending for him, at least).

Haley won't die because she's alive now; less than one book is not enough time to get from "Elan's love interest dies" to a happy ending for him. Roy is very unlikely to die.

The massage parlor joke was at best mildly amusing the first time, and yet someone always drags it back up whenever anyone mentions Elan's prophecied happy ending. At least this time around no one's yet claimed that the whistle or the illusion somehow counts as the end of the story. Crap, I just jinxed myself, didn't I?

[Emanick]

Because everyone dies eventually. If a happy ending can't exist with dead people, a happy ending can't exist at all.

"Ending" is rather undefined, though. How "long" does an ending last? When does it start? When does it end?

If everyone survives, and he lives happily for another 60 years, and then he dies of some agonizing disease. Is that a happy ending? Or not? Because, again, everyone dies eventually, including himself. There's nothing happy about an agonizing death. But if it lasts a week at most, and followed 60 years of exquisite delight? Does it average out as positive?

I think this clip from Doctor Who is remarkably relevant here. (Spoilers.)

[woweedd]

Because everyone dies eventually. If a happy ending can't exist with dead people, a happy ending can't exist at all.

"Ending" is rather undefined, though. How "long" does an ending last? When does it start? When does it end?

If everyone survives, and he lives happily for another 60 years, and then he dies of some agonizing disease. Is that a happy ending? Or not? Because, again, everyone dies eventually, including himself. There's nothing happy about an agonizing death. But if it lasts a week at most, and followed 60 years of exquisite delight? Does it average out as positive?

If Roy or any other dies, of course there'd be mourning. But if they saved the world, well Roy would have gotten to be the hero, save the day, and end up in paradise. His girlfriend is extraplanar... she could go visit him there. Roy'd have saved the world, broken the family curse, and accomplished everything he set out to do, earning himself the best retirement deal possible (paradise). Is that so sad? Elan could quite possibly just come to accept that, and move on, and live happily ever after with Haley.

Because that's just what every normal person does. Almost every living adult has lost a loved one. And almost all of them just end up learning to cope with it, as a natural and inevitable part of life. And they do so without having the certitude that the person is in literal paradise and access to high level magic to communicate or visit said person. If the average person can do it, Elan certainly can as well.

It requires a happy ending to THIS STORY. Elan was asking about an ending to the story of The Order, and whether it will be happy, which it will, by his standards. That almost certainly means he, Roy, Haley, and probably Durkon, live and achieve most of what they wanted, within reason. Belkar and V aren't as certain, and i'd argue the phrasing suggests at least one Order member will NOT get a happy ending. Otherwise, there'd be no need to add the clause about "for you, at least".

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Otherwise, there'd be no need to add the clause about "for you, at least".

No, it just means that, e.g., Elan's dad and brother won't get happy endings. Which they have not. And the same will apply to many, many characters not on the Order's side.

Grey Wolf

[zimmerwald1915]

No, it just means that, e.g., Elan's dad and brother won't get happy endings. Which they have not. And the same will apply to many, many characters not on the Order's side.

Isn't that a given? That if Elan is happy the people who don't want him to be happy won't be happy? Under this interpretation, there's no need to add the caveat other than as a petulant dig. And while the Oracle is certainly not above those, he tends to keep them out of the prophecies themselves.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Isn't that a given? That if Elan is happy the people who don't want him to be happy won't be happy? Under this interpretation, there's no need to add the caveat other than as a petulant dig. And while the Oracle is certainly not above those, he tends to keep them out of the prophecies themselves.

I reject your assumption that Elan's dad doesn't want Elan to be happy. That he is completely wrong in his methods is obvious, but I have never doubted that he wanted his children to fulfill their narrative potential and be happy.

In a creepy "you will do as you are told to be happy or else". But happy.

Grey Wolf

[Jasdoif]

Yes, I'm not going to dig the quote up right now, but I do remember him saying something along those lines.

Pretty much.

The MacGuffin is not the antagonist. The MacGuffin is the object sought by the antagonist. Narratively speaking, it does not matter what it does—only that the antagonist is willing to kill the protagonist to get it. That is the source of the conflict. It does not matter what is in the rift, it matters who is willing to kill whom to get it, even if they are mistaken about its usefulness. What is in the rift is only important insofar as it may, at some point, change who is willing to kill whom and why. And that IS important, because those details will change the shape of what happens, but not as the source of conflict. The Snarl is not the threat; Xykon is the threat. The Snarl's powers have as much relevance to the quest to get the Snarl as the exact properties of the glowing briefcase have on the plot of Pulp Fiction, or the exact dollar value of the statue in The Maltese Falcon.

Likewise, the setting is not the protagonist. What happens to the world is only important because the protagonists are the sort of people who care about what happens to the world. If Team Evil or the Linear Guild kills the entire Order of the Stick and then takes the Gate only to find that it does not do what they thought it did...how does that help the Order of the Stick? They will still be dead, and the story is about them. The Linear Guild is not a threat because they will do something bad with the Gate; they are a threat because they will kill the Order of the Stick to do it. At the end of Star Wars, one does not care that the Death Star is about to blow up Yavin 4; one cares that the Death Star is about to kill the protagonists, some of whom happen to be on Yavin 4.

If one does not care about the protagonists or antagonists and is not emotionally invested in their struggles—whether those struggles are external or internal, relevant to the MacGuffin plot or not—and all one cares about is the resolution of the MacGuffin chase, then you will almost certainly be bored with a lot of the material I'm producing. And more importantly, I won't care. The Snarl plot is part of the armature upon which I hang the characters' conflicts; it is not the whole of the story. The strip is titled The Order of the Stick, not The Chase for the Snarl or even Saving the World. Ultimately, it seems like you want the story to be about things it is not going to be about, so it's unlikely you are ever going to enjoy it.

[woweedd]

I reject your assumption that Elan's dad doesn't want Elan to be happy. That he is completely wrong in his methods is obvious, but I have never doubted that he wanted his children to fulfill their narrative potential and be happy.

In a creepy "you will do as you are told to be happy or else". But happy.

Grey Wolf

Tarquin loves his kids, in as much as a sociopathic narcissist CAN love anyone or anything other then himself. Which is to say, he loves them, but only if they remain extensions of his own self. If they step too far out of line...

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Tarquin loves his kids, in as much as a sociopathic narcissist CAN love anyone or anything other then himself. Which is to say, he loves them, but only if they remain extensions of his own self. If they step too far out of line...

All of which I agree with. I just reject the idea that Tarquin's didn't want Elan to be happy. In his own twisted way, he thought only his way could make Elan happy, but I do not doubt that a big happy family under his thumb is indeed a primary objective of Tarquin.

Contradictory and thus likely impossible? Almost certainly. But Tarquin can easily believe six impossible things before breakfast, I'm sure.

Grey Wolf

[woweedd]

All of which I agree with. I just reject the idea that Tarquin's didn't want Elan to be happy. In his own twisted way, he thought only his way could make Elan happy, but I do not doubt that a big happy family under his thumb is indeed a primary objective of Tarquin.

Contradictory and thus likely impossible? Almost certainly. But Tarquin can easily believe six impossible things before breakfast, I'm sure.

Grey Wolf

Well, rather, Tarquin wanted TARQUIN to be happy. Since the only way he can love is by viewing people as extensions of himself, he assumes that what HE wants is what THEY want.

[Mightymosy]

Elan asked if the story will have a happy ending, not if he would be happy at the story's end. In my opinion, that neither bends to "Elan is happy in the afterlife" nor requires "none of the Order dies." It means a classically happy, as opposed to tragic, ending, which allows for some main characters to die, but not Elan (because it's a happy ending for him, at least).

Haley won't die because she's alive now; less than one book is not enough time to get from "Elan's love interest dies" to a happy ending for him. Roy is very unlikely to die.

The massage parlor joke was at best mildly amusing the first time, and yet someone always drags it back up whenever anyone mentions Elan's prophecied happy ending. At least this time around no one's yet claimed that the whistle or the illusion somehow counts as the end of the story. Crap, I just jinxed myself, didn't I?

Not jinxed. Mega-ninjaed by the thread's opening poster:

I´ve saw in other forums people saying that the illusion was Elan´s happy ending, but I don´t think that fits the prophecy. The Oracle made it seem that only Elan would get a happy ending, but all party members got theirs through the illusion

[Goblin_Priest]

It requires a happy ending to THIS STORY. Elan was asking about an ending to the story of The Order, and whether it will be happy, which it will, by his standards. That almost certainly means he, Roy, Haley, and probably Durkon, live and achieve most of what they wanted, within reason. Belkar and V aren't as certain, and i'd argue the phrasing suggests at least one Order member will NOT get a happy ending. Otherwise, there'd be no need to add the clause about "for you, at least".

No, it just means that, e.g., Elan's dad and brother won't get happy endings. Which they have not. And the same will apply to many, many characters not on the Order's side.

Grey Wolf

"for you, at least" as a way to exclude the villains seems completely redundant. Of course, there won't be a happy ending for everyone in the universe, that's just absurd, unless you consider "the world is saved" to be a "happy ending" for the entirety of living beings. But, again, some creatures want it destroyed.

If it meant a happy ending to the entire order, then adding "for you, at least" seems utterly pointless.

It think that last bit of "for you, at least", is both very important, and intentionally vague.

[Rrmcklin]

Yes, I'm not going to dig the quote up right now, but I do remember him saying something along those lines.

One of Rich's less stellar moments, in my book. The author doesn't get to decide what aspects of the story I as the reader care about.

Fair enough, but he does get to consider what he cares about, and it's not that hard to see why a writer would want to write something that also satisfies themselves.

The point being, in a different story "all the main characters die, but they succeed in their mission and are satisfied with that" is something that can be done well, but Rich Burlew is not the kind of person who considers such things satisfying (at least not for the kind of tone he wants his story to have).

I'd wager that the four unambiguously good members of the Order will be at least relatively happy at the end of the story. Belkar most certainly won't, which is important, because it goes with the running message of "evil characters can be loads of fun, but don't take that to mean they should be rewarded just for being entertaining" (or however you'd phrase it. Similarly, I'd say V will probably live, but I'm much less sure of them than I am for any of the Capital G good members.

Well, when Durkon learned he'd return posthumously, he was overjoyed. That was basically "his happy ending". So... to some people, death is not an obstacle.

I highly doubt Elan or Haley will die, though. Elan isn't Durkon, after all, and he seems to enjoy living. I can see him being happy despite everyone else dying, however.

I don't see what the point of this is? That some characters are different from one another? That doesn't matter because, as you also admitted, Durkon isn't Elan. And even Durkon had very specific reasons he was happy about that at the time, reasons that don't even apply anymore.

But as for Elan being happy at the end of the story as long as Haley's alive? Well, I'm sure he could still go on to live a happy life but I don't think he'd consider that a happy ending for this story. Which is something I specifically brought up earlier - you shouldn't equate the end of the story with the rest of the character's life, the two things are (very likely) not the same.

[Wizard_Lizard]

They explained at the very end there. Or are you just not familiar with the term "happy ending" in that context?

Probably.

Also Elan did get a happy ending! He got a whistle! Which to him was happy ending.

[Kish]

Probably.

Also Elan did get a happy ending! He got a whistle! Which to him was happy ending.

The thing about a happy ending is that... ...well... ...it's an ending.

. .

[Morgana]

I honestly don't think V should die, it would feel very cynic. Like, the only redemption thry could achieve is death, instead of self forgiveness and improval. There's probably a way to frame it that would work, but after all that happened it just feels kinda like a cop out you know?

[zimmerwald1915]

I honestly don't think V should die, it would feel very cynic. Like, the only redemption thry could achieve is death, instead of self forgiveness and improval. There's probably a way to frame it that would work, but after all that happened it just feels kinda like a cop out you know?

Not really. Viktor Klemper got a very satisfying death in the X-Files.

[Wizard_Lizard]

I honestly don't think V should die, it would feel very cynic. Like, the only redemption thry could achieve is death, instead of self forgiveness and improval. There's probably a way to frame it that would work, but after all that happened it just feels kinda like a cop out you know?

Plus V is my favourite character.