Elan´s happy ending

[Crusher]

A Song of Ice and Fire does not have a high death rate. It just has a lot of characters (so a lot of deaths) and killed characters the readers assumed had plot armor* but the actual death/character ratio is about average.


*And even that has been toned down later on.

Indeed. There are a metric-f**kton of characters engaged in a wide range of really dangerous things (like going to war with each other). For the kind of "gritty realist" genre it occupies, I agree that its death rate among both major and minor characters is roughly average-ish overall and has probably been below average for the last few seasons (and books).

IMO, it really comes down to Ned. When everything starts, its gritty but not unduly so, and Martin seems to be doing a pretty traditional job of setting up Ned to be the central hero in an ensemble story. And then, with relatively little warning, he kills Ned in remarkably cold-blooded fashion. Everyone was like OMFG! This story is NUTS!

And everyone has viewed the story that way ever since, even though it really hasn't deserved it. Periodically it revisits those rarefied airs (the Red Wedding!), but those times happened less often than people seem to think. And there was a long stretch where it didn't really deserve it at all.

Ah, Ned. Seldom has a role been so well cast.

[zimmerwald1915]

Red Wedding

And now for something completely different: am I the only one who can't help but look at this phrase and think first of the Berlin neighborhood?

[Wizard_Lizard]

Yes. The universe beginned in 1977, everything before (memory included) is but illusions created by George Lucas.

HE'S IN LEAGUE WITH THE TREES!
AND THE LIZARDS!
AND THE TRIANGLES!
AND THE DOORS!*

*seriously everything is a conspiracy

[Goblin_Priest]

If you only watched Star Wars, why are you calling it "A New Hope"?

Because I'm full of baloney. ;)

[Wizard_Lizard]

Because I'm full of baloney. ;)

mmmm......
baloney......

[Darth Paul]

Whaaaaaaaaaaaat!?

Rogue One is among my favorite Star Wars movies. Character death can be a good thing, it makes for a more heroic sacrifice, and is refreshing over the default "and all the good guys lived happily ever after" ending.

If you want underdeveloped characters dying left and right, look at The Last Jedi.

Now THAT was a pile of garbage.

As for "inevitable death because we don't see them again in other movies", I guess you hate all prequels, because by default you assume every new character is going to die, and that somehow makes it less interesting?

You must have watched a very different The Last Jedi from the one I did. In the one I saw,

Spoiler

Show

a character who we've known since the very first Star Wars film sacrificed himself to save the Rebellion

I don't mind character deaths that mean something. But I have to know and care about the character at least enough to care whether they live or die.

And a prequel can be done well or poorly. I for one enjoyed Revenge of the Sith (making me probably unique among the nominally tasteful folk here); not for the love story part which was horribly acted, but because Ian McDiarmid was so delicious to watch in his machinations, and it was fulfilling to see the backstory play out, watching Obi-Wan and Anakin go from comrades in arms to deadly enemies. Plus, the lightsaber duels were pure fanservice for me. And watching Order 66 go down was gut-wrenching.

If R1 had been less unremittingly dark and gritty, I might have cared a little more. As it was, the only characters I liked much were Chirrut (because he was, in fact, the token idealist) and the snarky droid whose name I can't even remember (come on, voice of Alan Tudyk, you can't not like him). In other words, the comic relief. I realize fully that it was meant to be a dark and gritty "Dirty Dozen meets Star Wars" episode, but even the Dozen had some humor.

Solo is another example. Although it's grown on me slightly now that I can watch it at home and go get a coffee or something during the parts that bore me, it seemed like a determined attempt to cram every backstory reference possible into the movie. Here's the Kessel run, here's how he met Chewie, here's how he won the Falcon, here's the "fair and square" line. I liked it better when things weren't spelled out completely. (And I don't care what they say, you can't do the Kessel run in less than 12 parsecs any more than you can run a mile in under 100 yards. I consider the whole movie apocryphal, especially that guy in the hologram.)

[Wizard_Lizard]

And a prequel can be done well or poorly. I for one enjoyed Revenge of the Sith (making me probably unique among the nominally tasteful folk here); not for the love story part which was horribly acted, but because Ian McDiarmid was so delicious to watch in his machinations, and it was fulfilling to see the backstory play out, watching Obi-Wan and Anakin go from comrades in arms to deadly enemies. Plus, the lightsaber duels were pure fanservice for me. And watching Order 66 go down was gut-wrenching.

I didn't like revenge of the sith at all. But hey, different people with different opinions.

[Goblin_Priest]

You must have watched a very different The Last Jedi from the one I did. In the one I saw, a character who we've known since the very first Star Wars film sacrificed himself to save the Rebellion

(spoiler tag, really? I saw TLJ ages ago, and by then the movie had already been out for ages)

Uh huh, and how much screen time did Luke get in the sequels? 1 minute in TFA. 21 in TLJ, I think, which is sizable in itself (only Rey gets more), but lots of that is just garbage scenes (milking the aliens, best one), and that's also largely just because the rest of the movie is a scattered mess of pointless side arcs, such as the utterly useless bombing run, the utterly useless code breaker quest, the utterly useless anti-ram charge, etc.

Luke's death was terrible, too. "He's not there... GOTCHA, he's kinda there! But he died... GOTCHA, he didn't really die! But... GOTCHA, he did really die in the end anyways!"

Why did he even die, anyways? Did he just Padmé'd himself? If his projection funk got him killed, why'd he get all that time after the lethal damage before actually finally dying?

I /much/ preferred the deaths in Rogue One, or Qui Gon's death, or Han Solo's death. Luke's death was vomit-inducing. As for Holdo's death, it'd be cause for cheer if it wasn't utterly ruined by the implications of turning hyperspace drives into weapons. I guess kamikazes are only alright when you first sent all of your underlings to pointless deaths and when it somehow is supposed to make you look like a brave and caring leader. After all, the bombers all sent to their deaths in the beginning of the movie had hyperspace drives, too. A pity they had to be sent to die for no gain whatsoever, when Holdo could have just strapped herself up in one of these and ram her way to glory before everyone under her got slaughtered.

[Wizard_Lizard]

(spoiler tag, really? I saw TLJ ages ago, and by then the movie had already been out for ages)

Uh huh, and how much screen time did Luke get in the sequels? 1 minute in TFA. 21 in TLJ, I think, which is sizable in itself (only Rey gets more), but lots of that is just garbage scenes (milking the aliens, best one), and that's also largely just because the rest of the movie is a scattered mess of pointless side arcs, such as the utterly useless bombing run, the utterly useless code breaker quest, the utterly useless anti-ram charge, etc.

Luke's death was terrible, too. "He's not there... GOTCHA, he's kinda there! But he died... GOTCHA, he didn't really die! But... GOTCHA, he did really die in the end anyways!"

Why did he even die, anyways? Did he just Padmé'd himself? If his projection funk got him killed, why'd he get all that time after the lethal damage before actually finally dying?

I /much/ preferred the deaths in Rogue One, or Qui Gon's death, or Han Solo's death. Luke's death was vomit-inducing. As for Holdo's death, it'd be cause for cheer if it wasn't utterly ruined by the implications of turning hyperspace drives into weapons. I guess kamikazes are only alright when you first sent all of your underlings to pointless deaths and when it somehow is supposed to make you look like a brave and caring leader. After all, the bombers all sent to their deaths in the beginning of the movie had hyperspace drives, too. A pity they had to be sent to die for no gain whatsoever, when Holdo could have just strapped herself up in one of these and ram her way to glory before everyone under her got slaughtered.

And couldn't she have just turned on autopilot.

[snowblizz]

ROFL.

Nowadays I amuse myself guessing how threads start on topic page 1 but are a Star Wars thread on page 4.

It must have seemed natural for everyone involved. But if one looks at page1 and decies to see where discussion is at page4, it's just wtf?

[Wizard_Lizard]

ROFL.

Nowadays I amuse myself guessing how threads start on topic page 1 but are a Star Wars thread on page 4.

It must have seemed natural for everyone involved. But if one looks at page1 and decies to see where discussion is at page4, it's just wtf?

Star Wars or Miko are the two inevitable topics of almost all tgreads I have partaken in.

[martianmister]

I really like Solo, it's like the reverse version of Guardians of the Galaxy, where everyone is, other than the big guy, ended up broken or dead.

[Darth Paul]

(spoiler tag, really? I saw TLJ ages ago, and by then the movie had already been out for ages)

Spoiler tag as a courtesy to people who may not have seen it but may be planning to some day. But, since you've just discussed the entire plot, that made it kind of pointless.

The amount of screen time is irrelevant. Ricardo Montalban nearly turned down appearing in The Wrath of Khan because he appeared in only 15 or 20 minutes on screen; until his agent pointed out, "Yes, but the rest of the film, all the other characters are talking about you!!" Luke is one of the main characters in an ensemble piece; any more time dilutes the potency of his final appearance. (It was set up earlier, by the way, that nobody can do that kind of projection without the effort killing them. The fact that he held it for so long makes him kind of the most powerful Jedi in existence... not only by default.)

TLJ is a film about loss and sacrifice. Pointing out all the ways the heroes could have done things differently and escaped their fate or even won, is beside the dramatic point. And it's Monday morning quarterbacking. "She could have set the autopilot"; is there an autopilot? If there is, during the delay in running for the escape pod, is there a chance the ship get destroyed? Is it more important to her to make certain that she rams the First Order's capital ship and saves the rest of her side, even at the cost of her life? That's what heroic sacrifice is about.

[Wizard_Lizard]

Spoiler tag as a courtesy to people who may not have seen it but may be planning to some day. But, since you've just discussed the entire plot, that made it kind of pointless.

The amount of screen time is irrelevant. Ricardo Montalban nearly turned down appearing in The Wrath of Khan because he appeared in only 15 or 20 minutes on screen; until his agent pointed out, "Yes, but the rest of the film, all the other characters are talking about you!!" Luke is one of the main characters in an ensemble piece; any more time dilutes the potency of his final appearance. (It was set up earlier, by the way, that nobody can do that kind of projection without the effort killing them. The fact that he held it for so long makes him kind of the most powerful Jedi in existence... not only by default.)

TLJ is a film about loss and sacrifice. Pointing out all the ways the heroes could have done things differently and escaped their fate or even won, is beside the dramatic point. And it's Monday morning quarterbacking. "She could have set the autopilot"; is there an autopilot? If there is, during the delay in running for the escape pod, is there a chance the ship get destroyed? Is it more important to her to make certain that she rams the First Order's capital ship and saves the rest of her side, even at the cost of her life? That's what heroic sacrifice is about.

I only mentioned autopilot for layghs

[zimmerwald1915]

That's what heroic sacrifice is about.

Isn't heroic sacrifice called out as stupid and pointless ten minutes later?

[Kish]

Isn't heroic sacrifice called out as stupid and pointless ten minutes later?

This has been a demonstration of why passive voice should generally be avoided. (Irony.)

[D.One]

This has been a demonstration of why passive voice should generally be avoided. (Irony.)

And yet, it is actively chosen and used.

[Darth Paul]

Isn't heroic sacrifice called out as stupid and pointless ten minutes later?

Different scene.

[Wizard_Lizard]

different scene.

two heroic sacrifices!?!?!

[martianmister]

two heroic sacrifices!?!?!

By my estimation, more than two.

[Wizard_Lizard]

By my estimation, more than two.

surely any more than three would lessen the impact?

[Squire Doodad]

surely any more than three would lessen the impact?

Not if they all get dropped from space and become meteors.

[Wizard_Lizard]

Not if they all get dropped from space and become meteors.

true.... or they were travelling at lightspeed...

[Squire Doodad]

true.... or they were travelling at lightspeed...

Maybe Quickened Bugsby's Cataclysmic Toss?

[Wizard_Lizard]

Maybe Quickened Bugsby's Cataclysmic Toss?

hmm.. I haven't hear oftht spell…

[KorvinStarmast]

hmm.. I haven't hear oftht spell…

Spoof on all of V's cat-hand spells, as I read it.

[martianmister]

surely any more than three would lessen the impact?

That depends on the situation, I think.

[snowblizz]

Spoof on all of V's cat-hand spells, as I read it.

Well Bugsby's Improbably Handy Hands spells in general. There's an Bugby's Expressive Digit e.g. so they aren't all cat-handling spells.

(the larger joke, if I may be so bold, is that there's a Bugsby's Something or Other for almost every occasion where a wizard could use a hand, at least in OOTS)

[Ruck]

HE'S IN LEAGUE WITH THE TREES!
AND THE LIZARDS!
AND THE TRIANGLES!
AND THE DOORS!*

*seriously everything is a conspiracy

That's not what I expected the lesson of Oliver Stone's The Doors to be, but in hindsight it probably should have been.

[Squire Doodad]

That's not what I expected the lesson of Oliver Stone's The Doors to be, but in hindsight it probably should have been.

After The Birds, I always carry around a small case of bird repellent with me whenever I go to the beach.

Well Bugsby's Improbably Handy Hands spells in general. There's an Bugby's Expressive Digit e.g. so they aren't all cat-handling spells.

(the larger joke, if I may be so bold, is that there's a Bugsby's Something or Other for almost every occasion where a wizard could use a hand, at least in OOTS)

"Bugsby's Cataclysmic Toss" would basically amount to making things go fall down very fast. I would define it as "a toss with sufficient force and speed to allow an object to be thrown from sea level to the mid-Troposphere (approximately 15 km up without any detrimental conditions or boosts)" In theory, it could even be used as a "makeshift meteor swarm" if you have a Mass version (grab a pile of rocks, throw them at your target; with D&D physics speed will make them into mini-comets). If combined with Feather Fall and a couple abjurations (protection from fire, protection from sharp pointy spikes that happen to appear, protection from annoyed DM), could be used as a way to circumvent a "no-Teleport" scenario.