Page 3 of 6 FirstFirst 123456 LastLast
Results 61 to 90 of 162
  1. - Top - End - #61
    Titan in the Playground
     
    Traab's Avatar

    Join Date
    Dec 2010
    Location
    right behind you

    Default Re: LOTR What if: Boromir's plan

    Quote Originally Posted by Devonix View Post
    The Ring also shows you what you could do if you master it. For Sam it shows the entire world turned into a garden, beautiful and orderly with him as the ruler.

    The ring is Power pure and simple, it can do basically anything.
    I dunno if thats the case. I mean, it was tempting him with the form of power that sam would be most vulnerable to, there is no promise that if he claimed the ring it would have actually done that for him.
    "Interdum feror cupidine partium magnarum Europae vincendarum"
    Translation: "Sometimes I get this urge to conquer large parts of Europe."

    Quote Originally Posted by Nerd-o-rama View Post
    Traab is yelling everything that I'm thinking already.
    "If you don't get those cameras out of my face, I'm gonna go 8.6 on the Richter scale with gastric emissions that'll clear this room."

  2. - Top - End - #62
    Troll in the Playground
     
    Vinyadan's Avatar

    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: LOTR What if: Boromir's plan

    I think that the Ring simply found itself having to deal with the worst person to turn into a claimant -- a Hobbit whose highest aspiration was to be a loyal underling to someone else, and didn't have any hidden grudge. So it desperately tried to create an image that could fit his forma mentis (or to just turn him insane), but it was so surreal, that Sam didn't bite.

    I wonder if Sam actually wished for Mordor to generally become something beautiful, rather than a kingdom-sized garden.
    Spoiler: Temptation of Sam
    Show

    "His thought turned to the Ring, but there was no comfort there, only dread and danger. No sooner had he come in sight of Mount Doom, burning far away, than he was aware of a change in his burden. As it drew near the great furnaces where, in the deeps of time, it had been shaped and forged, the Ring’s power grew, and it became more fell, untameable save by some mighty will. As Sam stood there, even though the Ring was not on him but hanging by its chain about his neck, he felt himself enlarged, as if he were robed in a huge distorted shadow of himself, a vast and ominous threat halted upon the walls of Mordor. He felt that he had from now on only two choices: to forbear the Ring, though it would torment him; or to claim it, and challenge the Power that sat in its dark hold beyond the valley of shadows. Already the Ring tempted him, gnawing at his will and reason. Wild fantasies arose in his mind; and he saw Samwise the Strong, Hero of the Age, striding with a flaming sword across the darkened land, and armies flocking to his call as he marched to the overthrow of Barad-dûr. And then all the clouds rolled away, and the white sun shone, and at his command the vale of Gorgoroth became a garden of flowers and trees and brought forth fruit. He had only to put on the Ring and claim it for his own, and all this could be.

    In that hour of trial it was the love of his master that helped most to hold him firm; but also deep down in him lived still unconquered his plain hobbit-sense: he knew in the core of his heart that he was not large enough to bear such a burden, even if such visions were not a mere cheat to betray him. The one small garden of a free gardener was all his need and due, not a garden swollen to a realm; his own hands to use, not the hands of others to command.

    ‘And anyway all these notions are only a trick,’ he said to himself. ‘He’d spot me and cow me, before I could so much as shout out. He’d spot me, pretty quick, if I put the Ring on now, in Mordor. Well, all I can say is: things look as hopeless as a frost in spring. Just when being invisible would be really useful, I can’t use the Ring! And if ever I get any further, it’s going to be nothing but a drag and a burden every step. So what’s to be done?’"


    Galadriel understood Sam a little better. She actually offered him to go back home and live his ordinary life.

    Spoiler: Galadriel silently tests the Fellowship
    Show
    `What did you blush for, Sam? ' said Pippin. `You soon broke down. Anyone would have thought you had a guilty conscience. I hope it was nothing worse than a wicked plot to steal one of my blankets.'

    `I never thought no such thing,' answered Sam, in no mood for jest. 'If you want to know, I felt as if I hadn't got nothing on, and I didn't like it. She seemed to be looking inside me and asking me what I would do if she gave me the chance of flying back home to the Shire to a nice little hole with-with a bit of garden of my own.'

    `That's funny,' said Merry. 'Almost exactly what I felt myself; only, only well, I don't think I'll say any more,' he ended lamely.

    All of them, it seemed, had fared alike: each had felt that he was offered a choice between a shadow full of fear that lay ahead, and something that he greatly desired: clear before his mind it lay, and to get it he had only to turn aside from the road and leave the Quest and the war against Sauron to others.

    `And it seemed to me, too,' said Gimli, `that my choice would remain secret and known only to myself.'

    'To me it seemed exceedingly strange,' said Boromir. `Maybe it was only a test, and she thought to read our thoughts for her own good purpose; but almost I should have said that she was tempting us, and offering what she pretended to have the power to give. It need not be said that I refused to listen. The Men of Minas Tirith are true to their word.' But what he thought that the Lady had offered him Boromir did not tell.

    Quote Originally Posted by J.R.R. Tolkien, 1955
    I thought Tom Bombadil dreadful — but worse still was the announcer's preliminary remarks that Goldberry was his daughter (!), and that Willowman was an ally of Mordor (!!).

  3. - Top - End - #63
    Firbolg in the Playground
     
    Aedilred's Avatar

    Join Date
    Apr 2006
    Location
    Bristol
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: LOTR What if: Boromir's plan

    Quote Originally Posted by deuterio12 View Post

    Doesn't that raise the problem that once you take out the big bad, the next strongest in line should become the new big bad? How long until Gandalf or Galadriel become corrupt after Sauron isn't there anymore?
    This is presumably one of the reasons why Gandalf and the remaining Elves leave Middle-Earth not that long (in the grand scheme of things) after Sauron is defeated. For them, and particularly the three who hold Rings, staying in a Middle-Earth absent a big bad for pretty much the first time ever is creating a liability, in the form of temptation if nothing else.
    Empire! A community world-building game, always recruiting

    GITP Blood Bowl Manager Cup
    Red Sabres - Season I Cup Champions, two-time Cup Semifinalists
    Anlec Razors - Two-time Cup Semifinalists
    Bad Badenhof Bats - Season VII Cup Champions
    League Wiki

    Spoiler: Previous Avatars
    Show
    (by Strawberries)
    (by Rain Dragon)

  4. - Top - End - #64
    Bugbear in the Playground
    Join Date
    Oct 2013

    Default Re: LOTR What if: Boromir's plan

    Boromir wasn't on board the fellowship hoping to seize his chance, he just lost out in a moment of weakness. Galadriel would have picked up on it if he was insincere.

    Denethor isn't a monster either, Aragorn accidentally broke him by not removing the Corsair flags from his commandeered ships, so Denethor saw Sauron's apparent reinforcements and gave in to despair.

    Re Sam's temptation, I think that just the ring going 'crap, this dude doesn't want anything, what can I do with that in a hurry?'

    Interestingly, it makes Isildur invisible too, instead of something more flashy.

  5. - Top - End - #65
    Ettin in the Playground
    Join Date
    Jan 2015
    Location
    On the tip of my tongue
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: LOTR What if: Boromir's plan

    Quote Originally Posted by Sapphire Guard View Post
    Denethor isn't a monster either, Aragorn accidentally broke him by not removing the Corsair flags from his commandeered ships, so Denethor saw Sauron's apparent reinforcements and gave in to despair.
    There's lots of ways to tie Middle-Earth to Greek mythology if one is so inclined, but in my opinion this moment is peak Greece in LOTR.

  6. - Top - End - #66
    Troll in the Playground
     
    Vinyadan's Avatar

    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: LOTR What if: Boromir's plan

    Quote Originally Posted by Sapphire Guard View Post
    Boromir wasn't on board the fellowship hoping to seize his chance, he just lost out in a moment of weakness. Galadriel would have picked up on it if he was insincere.

    Denethor isn't a monster either, Aragorn accidentally broke him by not removing the Corsair flags from his commandeered ships, so Denethor saw Sauron's apparent reinforcements and gave in to despair.

    Re Sam's temptation, I think that just the ring going 'crap, this dude doesn't want anything, what can I do with that in a hurry?'

    Interestingly, it makes Isildur invisible too, instead of something more flashy.
    It made every mortal invisible (Gollum, Bilbo, Frodo, Sam, Isildur), but I think it's possible that, if the wearer had really applied himself to it, he would have been able to stay visible while wearing it. Or make the ring itself invisible. That's how the Three worked, and they were made through the knowledge given by Sauron, although without his direct participation. EDIT: The Three simply didn't make you invisible, it's in a letter; invisibility is a power derived from Sauron. Anyway, in the case of Isildur, the Ring double-screwed him: it fell off his finger, but it also called the Orc host and made them more ferocious. And Isildur, by then, was aware of not being strong enough to master it.

    Denethor isn't a monster, but Tolkien describes how he wrote him as a ruler who doesn't really see the conflict as good cause vs evil cause, but as a fight between polities.

    Spoiler: Letters
    Show
    Denethor was tainted with mere politics: hence his failure, and his mistrust of Faramir. It had become for him a prime motive to preserve the polity of Gondor, as it was, against another potentate, who had made himself stronger and was to be feared and opposed for that reason rather than because he was ruthless and wicked. Denethor despised lesser men, and one may be sure did not distinguish between orcs and the allies of Mordor. If he had survived as victor, even without use of the Ring, he would have taken a long stride towards becoming himself a tyrant, and the terms and treatment he accorded to the deluded peoples of east and south would have been cruel and vengeful. He had become a 'political' leader: sc. Gondor against the rest.


    Tolkien also observes how different this is compared to the Elves, who knowingly did the opposite: destroy their polities to destroy Sauron, since the Three would have been lost.

    About Boromir, he clearly isn't a black-and-white character. But he has his own desires for the Ring, and this is described constantly, from his words when leaving Lorien, to him nervously biting his fingers and talking to himself on the boat, while glancing at Frodo. One of the reasons is that he doesn't seem to believe the plan to destroy the Ring to be possible; he sees sending the Ring to Mordor as a good way to waste it without gaining anything in return. He holds his desire at bay, as long as he can -- which means, until the Fellowship has to choose between going to Mordor or Gondor. Frodo chooses against going to Minas Tirith, and, at this point, it becomes clear to Boromir that he never will be able to use the Ring to gain the power of Command. He first asks Frodo to lend him the Ring (which doesn't make the least bit of sense, since this would mean that Frodo would go to Mordor... without the Ring!), and then tries to take it by force, while justifying himself with legalistic reasoning ("unlike the Hobbits, the people of Gondor have a right to owning the Ring") that reminds me of Isildur's weregild talk. Oddly enough, Frodo is the opinion that Aragorn could claim the Ring, as he says to Aragorn (who denies it) in Rivendell and to Faramir.

    Had Frodo not been alone, this probably wouldn't have happened... probably. It depends on whether he could really have let go when he left the Fellowship.
    Last edited by Vinyadan; 2019-04-15 at 03:48 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by J.R.R. Tolkien, 1955
    I thought Tom Bombadil dreadful — but worse still was the announcer's preliminary remarks that Goldberry was his daughter (!), and that Willowman was an ally of Mordor (!!).

  7. - Top - End - #67
    Titan in the Playground
     
    Traab's Avatar

    Join Date
    Dec 2010
    Location
    right behind you

    Default Re: LOTR What if: Boromir's plan

    Denethor was also fooled by false visions sauron was sending through the palantir over the years, and yes that includes the vision of the corsair ships coming up the coast. Its been a long time but iirc they talked about how at first he was able to wrest control of it and use it as it was meant but after losing his wife and feeling despair and grief and all that, it weakened his will, allowing sauron to show him nothing but loss and misery and failure.
    "Interdum feror cupidine partium magnarum Europae vincendarum"
    Translation: "Sometimes I get this urge to conquer large parts of Europe."

    Quote Originally Posted by Nerd-o-rama View Post
    Traab is yelling everything that I'm thinking already.
    "If you don't get those cameras out of my face, I'm gonna go 8.6 on the Richter scale with gastric emissions that'll clear this room."

  8. - Top - End - #68
    Ogre in the Playground
    Join Date
    Aug 2012
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: LOTR What if: Boromir's plan

    Quote Originally Posted by deuterio12 View Post
    (Gandalf in particular goes to great lenths to avoid even touching it)
    Not exactly. Gandalf asks Frodo for the Ring for a moment, holds it for a while before throwing it in the fire, then handles it again giving it back to Frodo. The movies are all lies.

  9. - Top - End - #69
    Troll in the Playground
     
    OldWizardGuy

    Join Date
    Aug 2017
    Location
    France
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: LOTR What if: Boromir's plan

    Quote Originally Posted by Aedilred View Post
    This is presumably one of the reasons why Gandalf and the remaining Elves leave Middle-Earth not that long (in the grand scheme of things) after Sauron is defeated. For them, and particularly the three who hold Rings, staying in a Middle-Earth absent a big bad for pretty much the first time ever is creating a liability, in the form of temptation if nothing else.
    No, with the destruction of the Master-Ring all Rings of Power lost their power (such is sympathetic magic) however Galadriel and Elrond were using theirs to alter the flow of time on their domains (hence why the Fellowship loses track of the passing of time in both) in order to stall the fading of the Elves. With the Rings gone, the Elves had to leave soon too, a fact that Saruman took delight in rubbing in their faces just before stealing Merry's pipe.
    Quote Originally Posted by Sapphire Guard View Post
    Boromir wasn't on board the fellowship hoping to seize his chance, he just lost out in a moment of weakness. Galadriel would have picked up on it if he was insincere.

    Denethor isn't a monster either, Aragorn accidentally broke him by not removing the Corsair flags from his commandeered ships, so Denethor saw Sauron's apparent reinforcements and gave in to despair.
    What really broke him is Faramir's seeming death and witnessing Frodo's capture by the Orcs. Since he couldn't see Sam who was invisible and the Palantiri do not have sound with them he assumed the One Ring would be back on Sauron's finger in a matter of days.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sapphire Guard View Post
    Re Sam's temptation, I think that just the ring going 'crap, this dude doesn't want anything, what can I do with that in a hurry?'

    Interestingly, it makes Isildur invisible too, instead of something more flashy.
    That's probably because both Isildur and the Ring were interested in getting sneaky at the moment.
    Quote Originally Posted by Traab View Post
    Denethor was also fooled by false visions sauron was sending through the palantir over the years, and yes that includes the vision of the corsair ships coming up the coast.
    Nope, not even Sauron can show false things with a palantir. But context is key.
    Last edited by Fyraltari; 2019-04-17 at 01:22 PM.

  10. - Top - End - #70
    Titan in the Playground
     
    Traab's Avatar

    Join Date
    Dec 2010
    Location
    right behind you

    Default Re: LOTR What if: Boromir's plan

    Quote Originally Posted by Fyraltari View Post
    No, with the destruction of the Master-Ring all Rings of Power lost their power (such is sympathetic magic) however Galadriel and Elrond were using theirs to alter the flow of time on their domain (hence why the Fellowship loses track of the passing of time in both) in order to stall the fading of the Elves. With the Rings gone, the Elves had to leave soon too, a fact that Saruman took delight in rubbing in their faces just before stealing Merry's pipe.

    What really broke him is Faramir's seeming death and witnessing Frodo's capture by the Orcs. Since he couldn't see Sam who was invisible and the Palantiri do not have sound with them he assumed the One Ring would be back on Sauron's finger in a matter of days.


    That's probably because both Isildur and th eRing were interested in getting sneaky at the moment.

    Nope, not even Sauron can show false things with a palantir. But context is key.
    Ok false is the wrong word, but he would lie with the truth. As an example, I walk up to a married couple, and I say to the woman, "Your husband will NEVER love you the way you love him." This is purest truth, its impossible for two people to have exactly identical emotions considering how different they are. She may love him for his strength while he loves her for her kindness. Its still love, but its not the same. However, it would be so easy to make her take that as "he doesnt love you and its hopeless to try." All denethor was allowed to see was the truth, sauron was growing stronger, the side of good was weakening in places, the tree of gondor was not flowering. All these negative things without being able to see the positive, of course he would give in to despair.
    "Interdum feror cupidine partium magnarum Europae vincendarum"
    Translation: "Sometimes I get this urge to conquer large parts of Europe."

    Quote Originally Posted by Nerd-o-rama View Post
    Traab is yelling everything that I'm thinking already.
    "If you don't get those cameras out of my face, I'm gonna go 8.6 on the Richter scale with gastric emissions that'll clear this room."

  11. - Top - End - #71
    Bugbear in the Playground
    Join Date
    Oct 2013

    Default Re: LOTR What if: Boromir's plan

    What really broke him is Faramir's seeming death and witnessing Frodo's capture by the Orcs. Since he couldn't see Sam who was invisible and the Palantiri do not have sound with them he assumed the One Ring would be back on Sauron's finger in a matter of days.
    Wow, those are some excellent reasons to crack. And people complain Tolkien is too black and white.

    Ok false is the wrong word, but he would lie with the truth.
    IIRC this is pretty much what happened. Denethor kept being shown how strong Sauron's forces were.

    Notable here is that Denethor was not broken by Sauron's will directly the way Pippin was, which is impressive in itself, although it did age him prematurely.

  12. - Top - End - #72
    Troll in the Playground
     
    OldWizardGuy

    Join Date
    Aug 2017
    Location
    France
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: LOTR What if: Boromir's plan

    Quote Originally Posted by Sapphire Guard View Post
    Wow, those are some excellent reasons to crack. And people complain Tolkien is too black and white.



    IIRC this is pretty much what happened. Denethor kept being shown how strong Sauron's forces were.

    Notable here is that Denethor was not broken by Sauron's will directly the way Pippin was, which is impressive in itself, although it did age him prematurely.
    Scratch that, Denethor showed more mental fortitude than Saruman the White. And unlike Saruman, his fears of his supposed allies plotting against him are actually justified*.

    Then again unlike Pippin or Saruman**, Denethor had the legal authority as Reigning Steward to use the Seeing-Stone, which probably helped.

    *The Appendices implies he suspected Gandalf was planning to replace him with ‘‘Thorngil’’ (actually Aragorn) since Theoden was a child. And also that his father liked Aragorn better than him, which explains his treatment of Faramir all too well.

    **Who initially had it as he was given the Keys of Orthanc by the Reigning Steward, as Steward of Isengard in service to Gondor but it seems the Stone realized his disloyalty at some point. Probably when he used it to talk to Sauron.
    "Any technology distinguishable from magic is insufficiently advanced."
    Gehm's corollary to Clarke's Third Law



    Forum Wisdom

  13. - Top - End - #73
    Bugbear in the Playground
    Join Date
    Oct 2013

    Default Re: LOTR What if: Boromir's plan

    I was going to say some of that, but I wasn't sure of my lore.

  14. - Top - End - #74
    Titan in the Playground
     
    Grey_Wolf_c's Avatar

    Join Date
    Aug 2007

    Default Re: LOTR What if: Boromir's plan

    Quote Originally Posted by Traab View Post
    Denethor was also fooled by false visions sauron was sending through the palantir over the years, and yes that includes the vision of the corsair ships coming up the coast. Its been a long time but iirc they talked about how at first he was able to wrest control of it and use it as it was meant but after losing his wife and feeling despair and grief and all that, it weakened his will, allowing sauron to show him nothing but loss and misery and failure.
    ...

    Oh gods, it's like reading twitter. Tolkien predicted Twitter.

    Grey Wolf
    Interested in MitD? Join us in MitD's thread.
    There is a world of imagination
    Deep in the corners of your mind
    Where reality is an intruder
    And myth and legend thrive
    Quote Originally Posted by woweedd View Post
    I would say that's the dumbest theory Grey Wolf's heard, but, let's be honest: It's Grey Wolf. They've probably heard dumber theories today. Point is, neat idea, but it's a real stretch.
    Ceterum autem censeo Hilgya malefica est

  15. - Top - End - #75
    Troll in the Playground
     
    OldWizardGuy

    Join Date
    Aug 2017
    Location
    France
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: LOTR What if: Boromir's plan

    Quote Originally Posted by Lethologica View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Sapphire Guard View Post
    Denethor isn't a monster either, Aragorn accidentally broke him by not removing the Corsair flags from his commandeered ships, so Denethor saw Sauron's apparent reinforcements and gave in to despair.
    There's lots of ways to tie Middle-Earth to Greek mythology if one is so inclined, but in my opinion this moment is peak Greece in LOTR.
    At least Aragorn had a good reason unlike Theseus who, in some version flat-out forgot about the sail color code.
    Quote Originally Posted by Grey_Wolf_c View Post
    ...

    Oh gods, it's like reading twitter. Tolkien predicted Twitter.

    Grey Wolf
    Aaaaand, I'm going to sig that, if you don't mind.
    "Any technology distinguishable from magic is insufficiently advanced."
    Gehm's corollary to Clarke's Third Law



    Forum Wisdom

  16. - Top - End - #76
    Titan in the Playground
     
    Grey_Wolf_c's Avatar

    Join Date
    Aug 2007

    Default Re: LOTR What if: Boromir's plan

    Quote Originally Posted by Fyraltari View Post
    Aaaaand, I'm going to sig that, if you don't mind.
    Go ahead, but you may need to add some kind of context for it to make sense.

    Grey Wolf
    Interested in MitD? Join us in MitD's thread.
    There is a world of imagination
    Deep in the corners of your mind
    Where reality is an intruder
    And myth and legend thrive
    Quote Originally Posted by woweedd View Post
    I would say that's the dumbest theory Grey Wolf's heard, but, let's be honest: It's Grey Wolf. They've probably heard dumber theories today. Point is, neat idea, but it's a real stretch.
    Ceterum autem censeo Hilgya malefica est

  17. - Top - End - #77
    Troll in the Playground
     
    OldWizardGuy

    Join Date
    Aug 2017
    Location
    France
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: LOTR What if: Boromir's plan

    Quote Originally Posted by Grey_Wolf_c View Post
    Go ahead, but you may need to add some kind of context for it to make sense.

    Grey Wolf
    Honestly I'm tempted to leave it at that, for the sheer randomness. And it's not like anyone intrigued wouldn't be abe to find the context in one click.
    Last edited by Fyraltari; 2019-04-17 at 01:27 PM.

  18. - Top - End - #78
    Titan in the Playground
     
    Traab's Avatar

    Join Date
    Dec 2010
    Location
    right behind you

    Default Re: LOTR What if: Boromir's plan

    Quote Originally Posted by Fyraltari View Post
    Honestly I'm tempted to leave it at that, for the sheer randomness. And it's not like anyone intrigued wouldn't be abe to find the context in one click.
    Agreed, the randomness is part of the fun!
    "Interdum feror cupidine partium magnarum Europae vincendarum"
    Translation: "Sometimes I get this urge to conquer large parts of Europe."

    Quote Originally Posted by Nerd-o-rama View Post
    Traab is yelling everything that I'm thinking already.
    "If you don't get those cameras out of my face, I'm gonna go 8.6 on the Richter scale with gastric emissions that'll clear this room."

  19. - Top - End - #79
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    MonkGuy

    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Location
    SW England
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: LOTR What if: Boromir's plan

    Quote Originally Posted by deuterio12 View Post
    Also would've be pretty funny if some even bigger bad had shown up before only for Sauron to go all heroic.
    2000 AD is currently running a story ("Kingmaker") which is essentially "Lord of the Rings, but just as the Fellowship defeated Sauron, aliens invade!"

    Not!Sauron didn't get a heroic moment (on account of being vanquished by the heroes), but (some years after the invasion) one of the orcs that had served in his army rescued Not!Gandalf and recruited him into the resistance. Also featuring cannibal hobbits.

  20. - Top - End - #80
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    Planetar

    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Location
    Material Plane
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: LOTR What if: Boromir's plan

    Let's say they went with Boromir's plan 100%, ie.:

    1) They are using the Ring against Sauron.
    2) The Ring is taken to Minas Tirith to prepare for a war to crush Sauron.
    3) Boromir wields the Ring. After all, he's the greatest champion Minas Tirith has to offer.

    Basically, at this point, Boromir would have to try and master the might of the Ring to use what power the Ring can provide.

    What is this power? Basically, the Ring amplifies what existing might the wearer has. This is why the Ring makes hobbits invisible: as far as the Ring is concerned, they are only good at hiding. Getting more than parlor tricks, like invisibility, would require real ambition, which is something the hobbits lack.

    However, mastering the Ring is easier said than done. While I think Boromir might have a chance to do this, even at best, it wouldn't be a very big chance. Let's say, less than a 1% chance? Most likely, the Ring would drive Boromir mad with power, without actually offering much of it. I'd imagine he'd become like twice or thrice the warrior he currently is but that's small potatoes and ultimately just a ploy to make Boromir think he's "totally doing this". So he'd become mad, kind of like Gollumn... while leading the armies of Gondor as a super soldier. Assuming Boromir doesn't manage to rip Gondor apart with inner turmoil while preparing his armies, he'd march to open war against Sauron. This would end when Sauron inevitably reclaimed the Ring and used it to end the war for Middle-earth. This is the most likely scenario.

    Even if (a big 'if') Boromir became the master of the Ring, he still wouldn't automatically win. The ring would only amplifiy his power. Boromir's greatest strengths are his physical prowess (for a mortal man) and his skills in arms and as a general. He'd become the greatest warlord the lands of men ever produced and a real powerhouse on the battlefield. However, even this power might not be enough: even Sauron himself and his armies were defeated twice in the Second Age and Sauron had the Ring during both of those times.

    Boromir with the mastered One Ring wouldn't be as powerful as Sauron with the Ring, so even then, he'd most likely lose to Sauron and Sauron would reclaim the Ring. I'm not saying that at this point Boromir would automatically lose but I'd still say the odds would favor Sauron, even though Boromir would have a fighting chance. If Boromir won, he would just become an another dark lord, albeit not as powerful as Sauron.

    Considering this, sending nine guys or just two hobbits to Mordor to destroy the Ring has greater chances of success.
    Last edited by Raimun; 2019-04-23 at 06:36 PM.
    Signatures are so 90's.

  21. - Top - End - #81
    Ogre in the Playground
    Join Date
    Feb 2011

    Default Re: LOTR What if: Boromir's plan

    Quote Originally Posted by Raimun View Post
    What is this power? Basically, the Ring amplifies what existing might the wearer has. This is why the Ring makes hobbits invisible: as far as the Ring is concerned, they are only good at hiding.
    Isildur also turns invisible with the ring. Pretty important plot point since he does use it to try to escape an orc ambush only for the ring to slip off and revealing him again. Invisibility it's a default power.

    Reason being When a typical person put on the ring, he would be partly "shifted" out of the physical realm into the unseen realm, walking its threshold. A side effect (but usually the first effect noticed) of this was that it made the wearer invisible to physical beings like living men, but highly visible to other unseen beings like Ringwraiths. This "unseen world" was the world the Wraiths were forced to live in but it was also a world in which the Calaquendi held great power.

    It also makes people live longer, some sort of Tongues effect as it allowed Sam to understand orcish, and some kind of True Sight as Frodo could see Galadriel's own ring. It seems to also be able to change how people see you since ringbearer Sam makes hardened orcs see the hobbit as some fantasy warrior hero and run away in terror.

    Then it can plainly charm/dominate people so you can create and rule your empire, but uses the wielder's own stats for DC so hillbilly hobbit won't do much. People with other of Sauron's magic rings take a penalty but it's still doable, since the dwarf lords in particular were able to resist even Sauron's will despite wearing his magic rings.
    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Of Mantas View Post
    "You know, Durkon, I built this planet up from nothing. When I started here, all there was was a snarl. All the other gods said we were daft to build a planet over a snarl, but I built it all the same, just to show then. It got eaten by the snarl...

    ...so we built a five millionth, three hundreth, twenty first one. That one burned down, fell over, then got eaten by the snarl, but the five millionth, three hundreth, and twenty second one stayed up! Or at least, it has been until now."

  22. - Top - End - #82
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    Planetar

    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Location
    Material Plane
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: LOTR What if: Boromir's plan

    Quote Originally Posted by deuterio12 View Post
    Isildur also turns invisible with the ring. Pretty important plot point since he does use it to try to escape an orc ambush only for the ring to slip off and revealing him again. Invisibility it's a default power.

    Reason being When a typical person put on the ring, he would be partly "shifted" out of the physical realm into the unseen realm, walking its threshold. A side effect (but usually the first effect noticed) of this was that it made the wearer invisible to physical beings like living men, but highly visible to other unseen beings like Ringwraiths. This "unseen world" was the world the Wraiths were forced to live in but it was also a world in which the Calaquendi held great power.

    It also makes people live longer, some sort of Tongues effect as it allowed Sam to understand orcish, and some kind of True Sight as Frodo could see Galadriel's own ring. It seems to also be able to change how people see you since ringbearer Sam makes hardened orcs see the hobbit as some fantasy warrior hero and run away in terror.

    Then it can plainly charm/dominate people so you can create and rule your empire, but uses the wielder's own stats for DC so hillbilly hobbit won't do much. People with other of Sauron's magic rings take a penalty but it's still doable, since the dwarf lords in particular were able to resist even Sauron's will despite wearing his magic rings.
    Good points. Especially why the ring also made Isildur invisible. I should have said that "the invisibility" is among the only abilities of the Ring that the hobbits can use. Longevity always seemed like an accidental after effect (or The Ring playing a really long game). Sam scaring off the orcs with an illusion(?) seemed definitely accidental as well.

    Of course, much of what the Ring does, especially high level use, is still speculation, even in wikis. Myths and legends, which Tolkien clearly loved, aren't always so clear cut.
    Signatures are so 90's.

  23. - Top - End - #83
    Titan in the Playground
     
    Traab's Avatar

    Join Date
    Dec 2010
    Location
    right behind you

    Default Re: LOTR What if: Boromir's plan

    Quote Originally Posted by deuterio12 View Post
    Isildur also turns invisible with the ring. Pretty important plot point since he does use it to try to escape an orc ambush only for the ring to slip off and revealing him again. Invisibility it's a default power.

    Reason being When a typical person put on the ring, he would be partly "shifted" out of the physical realm into the unseen realm, walking its threshold. A side effect (but usually the first effect noticed) of this was that it made the wearer invisible to physical beings like living men, but highly visible to other unseen beings like Ringwraiths. This "unseen world" was the world the Wraiths were forced to live in but it was also a world in which the Calaquendi held great power.

    It also makes people live longer, some sort of Tongues effect as it allowed Sam to understand orcish, and some kind of True Sight as Frodo could see Galadriel's own ring. It seems to also be able to change how people see you since ringbearer Sam makes hardened orcs see the hobbit as some fantasy warrior hero and run away in terror.

    Then it can plainly charm/dominate people so you can create and rule your empire, but uses the wielder's own stats for DC so hillbilly hobbit won't do much. People with other of Sauron's magic rings take a penalty but it's still doable, since the dwarf lords in particular were able to resist even Sauron's will despite wearing his magic rings.
    The thing with sam, iirc, it didnt make them hallucinate him as a warrior hero, it exuded a sense of menace that, when combined with the fact that everyone else in the tower was dead, made them assume it was some elvish lord on an orc slaughter fest. Basically they saw tons of dead orcs, felt a danger approaching and saw a shadow of a figure with a sword coming towards them and they ran away. Also, it really only started doing that in mordor, as it came closer to its source of creation and power, it was waking up and exerting its influence more and more strongly. Aint nobody was scared of frodo in the fellowship after all. Or bilbo for that matter.
    "Interdum feror cupidine partium magnarum Europae vincendarum"
    Translation: "Sometimes I get this urge to conquer large parts of Europe."

    Quote Originally Posted by Nerd-o-rama View Post
    Traab is yelling everything that I'm thinking already.
    "If you don't get those cameras out of my face, I'm gonna go 8.6 on the Richter scale with gastric emissions that'll clear this room."

  24. - Top - End - #84
    Ogre in the Playground
    Join Date
    Feb 2011

    Default Re: LOTR What if: Boromir's plan

    Quote Originally Posted by Traab View Post
    The thing with sam, iirc, it didnt make them hallucinate him as a warrior hero, it exuded a sense of menace that, when combined with the fact that everyone else in the tower was dead, made them assume it was some elvish lord on an orc slaughter fest. Basically they saw tons of dead orcs, felt a danger approaching and saw a shadow of a figure with a sword coming towards them and they ran away. Also, it really only started doing that in mordor, as it came closer to its source of creation and power, it was waking up and exerting its influence more and more strongly. Aint nobody was scared of frodo in the fellowship after all. Or bilbo for that matter.
    But then Bilbo and Frodo were usually pretty passive/cowardish, while Sam was in a warpath to rescue master Frodo, no longer hiding but charging head on, ready to stab anybody who stood in his way (just like Sam earlier solo'd the giant monstrous spider). I see that event as the ring greatly amplifying Sam's bloodlust/killing intent. Plus Sam was probably seeing himself as a great fantasy hero at that moment.
    Last edited by deuterio12; 2019-04-23 at 07:41 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Of Mantas View Post
    "You know, Durkon, I built this planet up from nothing. When I started here, all there was was a snarl. All the other gods said we were daft to build a planet over a snarl, but I built it all the same, just to show then. It got eaten by the snarl...

    ...so we built a five millionth, three hundreth, twenty first one. That one burned down, fell over, then got eaten by the snarl, but the five millionth, three hundreth, and twenty second one stayed up! Or at least, it has been until now."

  25. - Top - End - #85
    Troll in the Playground
     
    Bohandas's Avatar

    Join Date
    Feb 2016

    Default Re: LOTR What if: Boromir's plan

    Quote Originally Posted by zinycor View Post
    So, I was thinking, what if at Rivendel it was decided to go with Boromir's plan, and use the ring against Sauron. How would that go? What would that change? How would they do so? And is it even possible?
    What would happen is that he'd become an invisible drug addict just like Gollum and Bilbo

  26. - Top - End - #86
    Troll in the Playground
     
    OldWizardGuy

    Join Date
    Aug 2017
    Location
    France
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: LOTR What if: Boromir's plan

    Quote Originally Posted by Raimun View Post
    Let's say they went with Boromir's plan 100%, ie.:

    1) They are using the Ring against Sauron.
    2) The Ring is taken to Minas Tirith to prepare for a war to crush Sauron.
    3) Boromir wields the Ring. After all, he's the greatest champion Minas Tirith has to offer.

    Basically, at this point, Boromir would have to try and master the might of the Ring to use what power the Ring can provide.

    What is this power? Basically, the Ring amplifies what existing might the wearer has. This is why the Ring makes hobbits invisible: as far as the Ring is concerned, they are only good at hiding. Getting more than parlor tricks, like invisibility, would require real ambition, which is something the hobbits lack.

    However, mastering the Ring is easier said than done. While I think Boromir might have a chance to do this, even at best, it wouldn't be a very big chance. Let's say, less than a 1% chance? Most likely, the Ring would drive Boromir mad with power, without actually offering much of it. I'd imagine he'd become like twice or thrice the warrior he currently is but that's small potatoes and ultimately just a ploy to make Boromir think he's "totally doing this". So he'd become mad, kind of like Gollumn... while leading the armies of Gondor as a super soldier. Assuming Boromir doesn't manage to rip Gondor apart with inner turmoil while preparing his armies, he'd march to open war against Sauron. This would end when Sauron inevitably reclaimed the Ring and used it to end the war for Middle-earth. This is the most likely scenario.

    Even if (a big 'if') Boromir became the master of the Ring, he still wouldn't automatically win. The ring would only amplifiy his power. Boromir's greatest strengths are his physical prowess (for a mortal man) and his skills in arms and as a general. He'd become the greatest warlord the lands of men ever produced and a real powerhouse on the battlefield. However, even this power might not be enough: even Sauron himself and his armies were defeated twice in the Second Age and Sauron had the Ring during both of those times.

    Boromir with the mastered One Ring wouldn't be as powerful as Sauron with the Ring, so even then, he'd most likely lose to Sauron and Sauron would reclaim the Ring. I'm not saying that at this point Boromir would automatically lose but I'd still say the odds would favor Sauron, even though Boromir would have a fighting chance. If Boromir won, he would just become an another dark lord, albeit not as powerful as Sauron.

    Considering this, sending nine guys or just two hobbits to Mordor to destroy the Ring has greater chances of success.
    Worse than that. Denethor would never have been able to let Borormir keep the Ring and Boromir would never have been able to give it to him. They would fight over it until one killed the other and lost whatever shred of sanity he had left. The soldiers in Minas Tirith would probably side with Boromir since they were already hero-worshipping him for the most part but Imrahil and the other lords would most likely side against the rogue prince, leading to civil war and Sauron rolling on th floor laughing.

    "Console yourself! said Gandalf. In no case would Boromir have brought it to you. He died, and of an honorable death; may he rest in peace! But you fool yourself. He would have raised his hand to take this thing, and taking it, would have fallen. He would have kept it for himself, and at his returning, you would not have recognized your son."
    Quote Originally Posted by Traab View Post
    The thing with sam, iirc, it didnt make them hallucinate him as a warrior hero, it exuded a sense of menace that, when combined with the fact that everyone else in the tower was dead, made them assume it was some elvish lord on an orc slaughter fest. Basically they saw tons of dead orcs, felt a danger approaching and saw a shadow of a figure with a sword coming towards them and they ran away. Also, it really only started doing that in mordor, as it came closer to its source of creation and power, it was waking up and exerting its influence more and more strongly. Aint nobody was scared of frodo in the fellowship after all. Or bilbo for that matter.
    "His will was too weak and too slow to stay his hand who, pulling the chain, grasped the Ring. But Sam did not put it on his finger; for at the moment he pressed it against his breast, an Orc appeared. Springing from a dark opening on his right, he ran towards him. He was but six steps away when, raising his head, he saw him [...] The Orc stopped, frightened. For he did not see a small scared Hobbit whose trembling hand barely held to his weapon; he saw a great silent shape, cloaked in a grey shadow, silouhetted against the blinking light : one of its hand held a blade of which the very glow was a stinging pain, the other was grasped against its torso, but it held a nameless horror, of power and of ruin.
    The Orc cowered a moment, then, with an horrible yelp of fear, he turned back and went as he came. [...]
    "Yes! the elf warrior is still loose! shouted [Sam], I come. But show me the way or I will flay you!" "

    The Orc knew who killed the other Orcs as he was just running from that fight, and though the scene wasn't brightly lit, it is clear the Ring twisted his perception of Sam. And Frodo did manage to give the Ringwraith pose near Rivendell, although that is implied to be more because the Witch-King could tell just what kind of blade Frodo was holding.

    Frodo also managed to use the power of the Ring (or the Ring managed to use the voice of Frodo) to command Gollum on the Emyn Muil, outside of Mordor.
    Last edited by Fyraltari; 2019-04-24 at 07:11 AM.

  27. - Top - End - #87
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    Planetar

    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Location
    Material Plane
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: LOTR What if: Boromir's plan

    Quote Originally Posted by Fyraltari View Post
    Worse than that. Denethor would never have been able to let Borormir keep the Ring and Boromir would never have been able to give it to him. They would fight over it until one killed the other and lost whatever shred of sanity he had left. The soldiers in Minas Tirith would probably side with Boromir since they were already hero-worshipping him for the most part but Imrahil and the other lords would most likely side against the rogue prince, leading to civil war and Sauron rolling on th floor laughing.

    "Conse yourself! said Gandalf. In no case would Boromir have brought it to you. He died, and of an honorable death; may he rest in peace! Mais you fool yourself. He would have raised his hand to take this thing, and takign it, would have fallen. He would have kept it for himself, and at his returning, you would not have recognized your son."
    Yeah, something like this would be the inner turmoil I mentioned.

    In the end, if Boromir merely possessed the Ring without being its master, it wouldn't matter if Gondor fell to civil war or stood together against Sauron with Boromir as their leader: Sauron would use his armies to destroy them and claim the Ring. This was exactly what Sauron was planning to do in the book anyway and he had prepared the means (armies, fellbeasts for ringwraiths, etc.) to accomplish this because he assumed his enemies would try to use the Ring as a weapon of war.

    I think his plan was something like this:

    1) The enemies have the Ring and they will use it in war.
    2) Wage war against them.
    3) Create pressure on the battlefields to force them to use the Ring in desperation. Besieging Minas Tirith should work.
    4) Try to pinpoint which one of the enemy commanders uses the Ring.
    5) Kill the Ring bearing enemy commander.
    6) Send ringwraiths on fellbeasts to swoop down and catch the Ring.
    7) Ringwraith with the Ring brings the Ring to me.
    Last edited by Raimun; 2019-04-24 at 07:20 AM.
    Signatures are so 90's.

  28. - Top - End - #88
    Ogre in the Playground
    Join Date
    Feb 2011

    Default Re: LOTR What if: Boromir's plan

    Quote Originally Posted by Raimun View Post
    Yeah, something like this would be the inner turmoil I mentioned.

    In the end, if Boromir merely possessed the Ring without being its master, it wouldn't matter if Gondor fell to civil war or stood together against Sauron with Boromir as their leader: Sauron would use his armies to destroy them and claim the Ring. This was exactly what Sauron was planning to do in the book anyway and he had prepared the means (armies, fellbeasts for ringwraiths, etc.) to accomplish this because he assumed his enemies would try to use the Ring as a weapon of war.
    Correct, it is mentioned in the book Sauron couldn't even dream that somebody may consider destroying his strongest ring, that's why he was willing to leave the volcano completely unguarded. Nobody would be crazy enough to try walking there and throwing away the super artifact of power, right? Right?

    And to be fair, even Frodo does fall to temptation and refuses to destroy it just as Isildur, but then Gollum jumps in to save the day.
    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Of Mantas View Post
    "You know, Durkon, I built this planet up from nothing. When I started here, all there was was a snarl. All the other gods said we were daft to build a planet over a snarl, but I built it all the same, just to show then. It got eaten by the snarl...

    ...so we built a five millionth, three hundreth, twenty first one. That one burned down, fell over, then got eaten by the snarl, but the five millionth, three hundreth, and twenty second one stayed up! Or at least, it has been until now."

  29. - Top - End - #89
    Titan in the Playground
     
    Traab's Avatar

    Join Date
    Dec 2010
    Location
    right behind you

    Default Re: LOTR What if: Boromir's plan

    Quote Originally Posted by Fyraltari View Post
    Worse than that. Denethor would never have been able to let Borormir keep the Ring and Boromir would never have been able to give it to him. They would fight over it until one killed the other and lost whatever shred of sanity he had left. The soldiers in Minas Tirith would probably side with Boromir since they were already hero-worshipping him for the most part but Imrahil and the other lords would most likely side against the rogue prince, leading to civil war and Sauron rolling on th floor laughing.

    "Console yourself! said Gandalf. In no case would Boromir have brought it to you. He died, and of an honorable death; may he rest in peace! But you fool yourself. He would have raised his hand to take this thing, and taking it, would have fallen. He would have kept it for himself, and at his returning, you would not have recognized your son."

    "His will was too weak and too slow to stay his hand who, pulling the chain, grasped the Ring. But Sam did not put it on his finger; for at the moment he pressed it against his breast, an Orc appeared. Springing from a dark opening on his right, he ran towards him. He was but six steps away when, raising his head, he saw him [...] The Orc stopped, frightened. For he did not see a small scared Hobbit whose trembling hand barely held to his weapon; he saw a great silent shape, cloaked in a grey shadow, silouhetted against the blinking light : one of its hand held a blade of which the very glow was a stinging pain, the other was grasped against its torso, but it held a nameless horror, of power and of ruin.
    The Orc cowered a moment, then, with an horrible yelp of fear, he turned back and went as he came. [...]
    "Yes! the elf warrior is still loose! shouted [Sam], I come. But show me the way or I will flay you!" "

    The Orc knew who killed the other Orcs as he was just running from that fight, and though the scene wasn't brightly lit, it is clear the Ring twisted his perception of Sam. And Frodo did manage to give the Ringwraith pose near Rivendell, although that is implied to be more because the Witch-King could tell just what kind of blade Frodo was holding.

    Frodo also managed to use the power of the Ring (or the Ring managed to use the voice of Frodo) to command Gollum on the Emyn Muil, outside of Mordor.
    Exactly, a panicky orc saw a grey cloaked figure holding a sword in one hand, and an object of horror in his other, and, already panicky from the free for all brawl, ran away screaming. I got some of the details wrong but, the ring wasnt casting an illusion as such, the orc could sense its presence, how powerful and evil and horrific the ring is (seeing as its a part of his masters soul and power, thats understandable he would feel that way) and ran away from this incredibly dangerous being in front of him that was scarier than the ruckus going on behind him.
    "Interdum feror cupidine partium magnarum Europae vincendarum"
    Translation: "Sometimes I get this urge to conquer large parts of Europe."

    Quote Originally Posted by Nerd-o-rama View Post
    Traab is yelling everything that I'm thinking already.
    "If you don't get those cameras out of my face, I'm gonna go 8.6 on the Richter scale with gastric emissions that'll clear this room."

  30. - Top - End - #90
    Troll in the Playground
     
    Vinyadan's Avatar

    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: LOTR What if: Boromir's plan

    Who knows, maybe the poor bastard had been stationed in Dol Guldur and still suffered from PTSD from when the White Council had attacked them.
    Quote Originally Posted by J.R.R. Tolkien, 1955
    I thought Tom Bombadil dreadful — but worse still was the announcer's preliminary remarks that Goldberry was his daughter (!), and that Willowman was an ally of Mordor (!!).

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •