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2019-04-17, 10:37 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Reasons to Restrict Multiclassing?
Last edited by Great Dragon; 2019-04-17 at 10:42 PM.
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2019-04-17, 11:28 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Reasons to Restrict Multiclassing?
I couldn't find it either with a quick skim of the DMG, but I did find:
"...As the Dungeon Master, You aren't limited by the rules in the Player's Handbook, the guidelines in this book, or the selection of monsters in the Monster Manual...
...Before you add a rule to your campaign, ask yourself two questions:
Will the rule improve the game?
Will my players like it?
If your confident that the smswer to both these questions is yes, then you have nothing to lose by giving it a try...
...No matter what a rules source, a rule serves you, not the other way around
Where have I seen something like that before?
Oh yes:
From Dungeons &Dragons vol. 3: The Underworld & Wilderness Adventures (1974)
page 36,
"AFTERWARD:
There are unquestionably areas which have been glossed over. While we deeply regret the necessity, space requires that we put in the essentials only, and the trimming will oftimes have to be added by the referee and his players. We have attempted to furnish an ample framework, and building should be both easy and fun. In this light, we urge you to refrain from writing for rule interpretations or the like unless you are absolutely at a loss, for everything herein is fantastic, and the best way is to decide how you would like it to be, and then make it just that way! On the other hand, we are not loath to answer your questions, but why have us do any more of your imagining for you? Write to us and tell about your additions, ideas, and what have you. We could always do with a bit of improvement in our refereeing."
Same game, same most important rule:
The DM makes the rules.
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2019-04-18, 12:02 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Reasons to Restrict Multiclassing?
Page 285.
It most certainly does not say to do it as you want. It says to make sure the swap is just as appealing and just as effective across all three pillars. It does not, however, say to watch out for overpowering things.
SUBSTITUTING CLASS FEATURES
If one or more features of a given class don't exactly
fit the theme or tone of your campaign, you can pull them out of the class and replace them with new
ones. In doing so, you should strive to make sure
that the new options are just as appealing as the
ones you are removing, and that the substitute class features contribute to the class's effectiveness at social interaction, exploration, or combat just as well as those being replaced.
Ultimately, a class exists to help a player express a particular character concept, and any class feature you replace is also removing an aspect of that character. Substituting a class feature should be done only to fit a specific need for your campaign, or to appeal to a player trying to create a specific kind of character (perhaps one modeled after a character from a novel, TV series, comic book, or movie).Last edited by Tanarii; 2019-04-18 at 12:03 AM.
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2019-04-18, 02:45 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Reasons to Restrict Multiclassing?
It’s not that we’re being basic about it. It’s that it is purely a matter of taste. This is true regardless of how we choose to be about it.
So it’s not that there’s no point in discussing any thing. It’s that there’s no point in discussing this kind of thing.
Knowing why the DM likes tomatoes is not going to tell me whether my players like tomatoes. Discussing why other players like tomatoes is not going to change the way tomatoes taste to me.
Plenty of topics are not like this. This topic, however, is like this. How many character options you think should be available, and the variety of those options that you think should be available, are matters of taste.
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2019-04-18, 03:08 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Reasons to Restrict Multiclassing?
It's slightly more complicated than that. The analogy would be that I for example don't like tomatoes, so no one at my house gets to eat tomatoes. Now, there might be a good reason why no one at my house shouldn't eat tomatoes, but not liking eating tomatoes myself is not a good reason, or at least that's what is being argued.
Analogies aside, restricting player options does make sense a lot of times. For example, a DM might not want their players to play evil characters because that might hurt the campaign. That could be for example because the DM has imagined of a story that works a lot better for heroes than for villains. Or simply because the DM has no interest in playing a game where he would be forced to have the game world interact with the pc's in certain ways, such as having to play the authorities chasing after the murderhobo pc's. To me, something like that is very understandable. I am looking to hear for reasons as to why something similar should hold for say, multiclass characters. To be honest, I don't think there are any compelling reasons for that, and I think that asking a lot of ''why'' is the best way to make an absurd position collapse in on itself.Last edited by Corran; 2019-04-18 at 03:08 AM.
Hacks!
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2019-04-18, 03:09 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Reasons to Restrict Multiclassing?
My, I'm long-winded!!
Thank you, 2D8HP. (No, really).
But like was posted:
@Tanarii - thanks, I'll check it out.
But reading what you placed, it seems more like “change something in a class with another thing that makes sense."
Not "crossing the Class streams".
The Feat-trade was the closest I could think of for getting that.
Part of the problem is that a lot of players don't want to be the DM.
They feel intimidated by the 'expectatons' that a lot of media sites (Critical Role, etc) cause.
They see being the DM as doing a lot of work, and that just being a player is 'more fun'. {Which is fine}
I do my best to encourage people to try being a DM - and give as many tips and shortcuts as possible, including referring them to this Forum.
----
Noticed some things that I have overlooked.
Which is why I put it like “(gods)”.
2. The hexblade is a completely alignment neutral patron.
Only if they have no-one/nothing other than The Raven Queen....
Remember that the Black Razor is Sentient and Evil. The DM determines the creator, and it might not be something the Character would really have a way to know about.
3. Nowhere is the cost of the pact discussed. "Selling your soul" is just setting up one specific example in an attempt to ignore other case, because they contain examples that logically work.
4. Let's say the Paladin does worship a god, and gets to interact with them:
Random god: I see you have offered your services to the blade in exchange for power?
Paladin: Well yeah, it didn't have any goals that don't align with mine, and the most it's asked of me is to kill undead when I see them which is what I already do.
/Conversation
Deity: “And how, exactly, is the power that I grant you not enough?”
Or
“Are you aware that the weapon in question was made by a being that, while not directly opposed, is not in alignment with either my ideals, my duties, nor my goals?”
-----
For those that intermingle in the Trade Cities, mostly. Back "home" the 'dress code' might be different for each Race. Some might copy from another Culture/Race, with some changes made. The difference between rich and poor is usually the type and quality of materials.
(I encourage the Players to add/invent these things. It helps me, and let's them feel more connected to my Game World. Anyone here can also jump in The Old Keep in World Building, or PM me)
And how will they know I'm an illusionist casting the occasional necromantic spell and not a necromancer casting the occsional illusionist spell?
(Showing the Necromancer's abilities to enhance the undead they create)
---
Originally Posted by Great Dragon
If everyone is the same, how do the PCs stand out as Heroes?
---Last edited by Great Dragon; 2019-04-18 at 03:15 AM.
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2019-04-18, 03:50 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Reasons to Restrict Multiclassing?
Agreed. A couple of years ago I would furiously argue about this and I would defend bloat to be good customization, but I've changed my mind about this. Yet, what seems like bloat to you might not necessarily seem bloat to me. I started playing dnd with 3e, and I have no experience whatsoever with the previous editions. So while I can understand that some people might even see several of the present classes as bloat, I only see the warlock as such. And that's not necessarily because the warlock fills less of a niche than a lot of the other classes, but it's probably because when I started playing there was no warlock on the phb. Thanks for the links btw, I'll have a look at them eventually.
And if or when multiclassing breaks balance, then I agree that it's a good reason to ban it. I don't think that multiclassing is the source of any serious imbalance, but that's personal opinion and beside the point. The point is that I agree that if multiclassing causes balance issues then it's a very good decision to ban it.
Having a good idea about how you want your character to grow is ok by me. If you have a good idea about how you will mechanically support that, that's fine too as far as I am concerned. Granted, I have never played a character that wasn't influenced at least to a small extent by the campain itself, whether it's the story or the other players.
So do we agree that the machanics of the game can be important to realizing a concept?
It can happen. Imagining a character does not necessarily exclude imagining some of the powers this character will use. Many dnd features are not exclusive to dnd culture. For example, I might want to play a character that has the ability to turn invisible before even knowing if invisibility is something that can be achieved in dnd (in which case we are probably talking about a new player). But imo, timing is not important. An idea for a character can sometimes start by looking at mechanical features of the game, and this is not a silly argument that I just happened to have heard, but something that I have experienced. It's an unconventional way of thinking of a character, but I don't think it can predetermine how much I will like the character in question.Hacks!
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2019-04-18, 08:14 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Reasons to Restrict Multiclassing?
Yeah, our frame of reference differs; but to be fair, a lot of us gobbled up the early bloat like Halloween candy. We wanted to try all kinds of different cool ideas, and balance for its own sake wasn't that big of a concern since the RAW fetish that seemed to come with the 3e hadn't developed at that point. DM tweaking of bloaty things was expected and common. Every game was a custom game, to a certain extent.
And if or when multiclassing breaks balance, then I agree that it's a good reason to ban it. I don't think that multiclassing is the source of any serious imbalance, but that's personal opinion and beside the point. The point is that I agree that if multiclassing causes balance issues then it's a very good decision to ban it.
Having a good idea about how you want your character to grow is ok by me. If you have a good idea about how you will mechanically support that, that's fine too as far as I am concerned. Granted, I have never played a character that wasn't influenced at least to a small extent by the campain itself, whether it's the story or the other players.
Something I don't try to do in D&D is take a character from a movie, book, tv show, what have you, and try to make it for D&D. I am not sure how to explain this, but to me and for me, every D&D character I have ever made was, and is, organic to being a D&D character. If it resembles a different kind of character from another genre, fine, but that's never been a character goal of mine.Avatar by linklele. How Teleport Worksa. Malifice (paraphrased):
Rulings are not 'House Rules.' Rulings are a DM doing what DMs are supposed to do.
b. greenstone (paraphrased):
Agency means that they {players} control their character's actions; you control the world's reactions to the character's actions.
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2019-04-18, 08:17 AM (ISO 8601)
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2019-04-18, 08:22 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Reasons to Restrict Multiclassing?
Page 285.
SUBSTITUTING CLASS FEATURES
If one or more features of a given class don't exactly fit the theme or tone of your campaign, you can pull them out of the class and replace them with new
ones. In doing so, you should strive to make sure that the new options are just as appealing as the ones you are removing, and that the substitute class features contribute to the class's effectiveness at social interaction, exploration, or combat just as well as those being replaced.
Ultimately, a class exists to help a player express a particular character concept, and any class feature you replace is also removing an aspect of that character. Substituting a class feature should be done only to fit a specific need for your campaign, or to appeal to a player trying to create a specific kind of character (perhaps one modeled after a character from a novel, TV series, comic book, or movie).
"Ultimately, a class exists to help a player express a particular character concept"
Interesting.It is one thing to suspend your disbelief. It is another thing entirely to hang it by the neck until dead.
Verisimilitude -- n, the appearance or semblance of truth, likelihood, or probability.
The concern is not realism in speculative fiction, but rather the sense that a setting or story could be real, fostered by internal consistency and coherence.
The Worldbuilding Forum -- where realities are born.
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2019-04-18, 08:40 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Reasons to Restrict Multiclassing?
Part of my distrust of class-based systems is the bloat... I'm unable to shake the feeling that all that bloat in new Classes and Races wouldn't be "necessary" if the system were more modular and adjustable to begin with.
Being a tad cynical, the thought starts to creep in, if whether selling all those books full of new Classes and stuff isn't at least a little bit of reason why tight-focus classes have such a conceptual hold inside the publishers of D&D and similar games.
CHA went from largely being a dump stat, to this weird catch-all stat conflating "charm", "force of personality", some vague notion of "internal power", and so on. Now we have this mashup of Classes for which it is the "main stat" or "second stat".
A while ago, as a tangent on some thread, a few of us contemplated the thought that maybe every Class could have two options for its "main stat", so that say a Lore Bard or certain Warlocks could choose INT, maybe a Sorcerer could choose WIS, or whatever.
This is actually one of the things that aggravated me about some of the d20 products put out, notably the span for Star Wars between WEGd6 and FFG's goofy-dice system. Open up one of the books, and here are the movie characters statted out as this or that Class...
Han Solo is not "A Rogue", Han Solo is Han Solo. He might be a rogue, but he's not A Rogue. Repeat for other characters. The character is the character.
Or in some versions, you could see where the various Classes were just the various movie and EU characters with the serial numbers and names filed off, which is just as aggravating... I'm not interested in playing "Not! Wedge Antilles".Last edited by Max_Killjoy; 2019-04-18 at 09:29 AM.
It is one thing to suspend your disbelief. It is another thing entirely to hang it by the neck until dead.
Verisimilitude -- n, the appearance or semblance of truth, likelihood, or probability.
The concern is not realism in speculative fiction, but rather the sense that a setting or story could be real, fostered by internal consistency and coherence.
The Worldbuilding Forum -- where realities are born.
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2019-04-18, 09:01 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Reasons to Restrict Multiclassing?
The d6 version of IKRPG is kind of similar. You pick an archetype (massive melee damage / be a strong man, lots of attacks / be dexterous and skilled, buff allies / be smart and cunning, be capable of magic), two careers (which give you a set of abilities/skills you start with, and pool of abilities/skills you can learn in any order), and a race (which determines your stats, gives a few abilities, and potentially a few career / archetype restrictions). The system doesn't prevent you from picking Savagery + Protector (using your example), and the career options are typically broader than your grouping.
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2019-04-18, 09:29 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Reasons to Restrict Multiclassing?
FWIW?
This has been posted several times, and I can't find the meaning anywhere.
For me, the annoyance with 3x bloat, was that all the splat books were cranked out so fast (a lot of the time without Playtesting and seemingly no concerns for balance with the core rules; especially with 3rd party stuff) and usually (to me) obviously using the popularity of the open system to just make a grab for money. Now, there were a few things that I found interesting, but (usually) one Feat, Class, or Prestige Class out of the entire book was about it.My Knowledge, Understanding, and Opinion on things can be changed
No offense is intended by anything I post.*Limited Playtest Group - I'm mostly Stuck in the White Room.
*I am learning valuable things, here. So thanks, everyone!
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2019-04-18, 09:29 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Reasons to Restrict Multiclassing?
It is one thing to suspend your disbelief. It is another thing entirely to hang it by the neck until dead.
Verisimilitude -- n, the appearance or semblance of truth, likelihood, or probability.
The concern is not realism in speculative fiction, but rather the sense that a setting or story could be real, fostered by internal consistency and coherence.
The Worldbuilding Forum -- where realities are born.
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2019-04-18, 09:41 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Reasons to Restrict Multiclassing?
Thanks, Max_Killjoy!
IKRPG = Iron Kingdoms?
Something to look into.
Sometimes figuring out what the letters stand for, and remembering them all, is a challenge.My Knowledge, Understanding, and Opinion on things can be changed
No offense is intended by anything I post.*Limited Playtest Group - I'm mostly Stuck in the White Room.
*I am learning valuable things, here. So thanks, everyone!
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2019-04-18, 10:13 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Reasons to Restrict Multiclassing?
5th Edition Homebrewery
Prestige Options, changing primary attributes to open a world of new multiclassing.
Adrenaline Surge, fitting Short Rests into combat to fix bosses/Short Rest Classes.
Pain, using Exhaustion to make tactical martial combatants.
Fate Sorcery, lucky winner of the 5e D&D Subclass Contest VII!
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2019-04-18, 10:14 AM (ISO 8601)
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2019-04-18, 10:43 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Reasons to Restrict Multiclassing?
My Knowledge, Understanding, and Opinion on things can be changed
No offense is intended by anything I post.*Limited Playtest Group - I'm mostly Stuck in the White Room.
*I am learning valuable things, here. So thanks, everyone!
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2019-04-18, 12:13 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Reasons to Restrict Multiclassing?
Yeah, Iron Kingdoms RPG, or the full name is Iron Kingdoms Full Metal Fantasy RPG.
More variety of character options in creation, less balance (comes from the lack of bounded accuracy, resulting in most races being able to stack either the chance to avoid attacks or their damage resistance to the point where even elite soldiers can't threaten them, but siege weapons can). The way 2d6 works, though, means that there is a much more reasonable probability curve for skills (novices and masters are both relatively competent at easy tasks, while masters are MUCH better than novices at epic tasks).
The way magic works (at-will, allowing so many points to be spent per 2 turns, rather than per day) allows it to be kept in line with non-magical methods of combat, and the system's focus on having almost only combat spells means that skills still get used at all tiers of play.
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2019-04-18, 01:49 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Reasons to Restrict Multiclassing?
Ah, so multiclassing paladin and hexblade is bad in every example because it doesn't work thematically if the DM goes out of their way to... not make it work thematically. The point?
Even without ”selling your soul”, your dedicating yourself to something in a similar manner to an Oath. The idea behind Paladins and Warlocks is that making an Oath not only grants power, but is binding.
And how about:
Deity: “And how, exactly, is the power that I grant you not enough?”
Or
“Are you aware that the weapon in question was made by a being that, while not directly opposed, is not in alignment with either my ideals, my duties, nor my goals?”
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2019-04-18, 10:47 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Reasons to Restrict Multiclassing?
Except there is no house. There is a game of D&D, and nobody is forcing anyone to play. So nobody has the power to force anyone to eat tomatoes. Eat them or don’t. End of story.
Analogies aside, restricting player options does make sense a lot of times. For example, a DM might not want their players to play evil characters because that might hurt the campaign. That could be for example because the DM has imagined of a story that works a lot better for heroes than for villains. Or simply because the DM has no interest in playing a game where he would be forced to have the game world interact with the pc's in certain ways, such as having to play the authorities chasing after the murderhobo pc's. To me, something like that is very understandable. I am looking to hear for reasons as to why something similar should hold for say, multiclass characters. To be honest, I don't think there are any compelling reasons for that, and I think that asking a lot of ''why'' is the best way to make an absurd position collapse in on itself.
Why restrict multi-classing to characters with 13s in the relevant ability scores? I think it should be 10, not 13. Someone else thinks it should be unrestricted by ability score. Why do only Mountain Dwarves get armor proficiency, but not halflings? I want my halfling to get armor proficiency.
It’s all arbitrary. Including the rules in the PHB.
In 2e, Dwarves could not be wizards. Why? Because. That’s all.
Everyone restricts at some point. Ask yourself why. Take that reason, and apply it to why someone else restricts mticlassing. It’s that simple. It’s taste. It’s arbitrary.
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2019-04-18, 11:36 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Reasons to Restrict Multiclassing?
Or even while game mechanically it's multiclassing in character it's just the character as one class/being. You can focus on the Pact to say the ability to smite is a power granted as part of the Pact, a type of invocation. You can focus on the Oath and say the deity's blessings provide the ability to unleash raw force power instead of or delaying an aura.
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2019-04-19, 03:04 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Reasons to Restrict Multiclassing?
These kind of threads (limiting player autonomy/options) is why I can deal with the the decision of the shop where we play AL that no one is turned away unless there are no DMs.
The AL organizer there is a proponent of there are enough limits in AL as WOTC has spoken from on high as it is.
What a private game does is their problem but the organized gaming sessions do get the tables first. I would really hate to show up for an AL game and be told my legal build character was not allowed in a game because of DM prejudice/fiat.
I see no reason to limit multi-classing. But then I think PHB+1 is a sign of haste to publish on the part of WOTC.
Back to your discussion.With one exception, I play AL games only nowdays.
I am the eternal Iconoclast.
Mountain Dwarfs Rock!
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Otto von Bismarck Quotes
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2019-04-19, 03:11 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Reasons to Restrict Multiclassing?
On related matter, I kinda agree on seeing no reason to limit multi-classing, except by recommending to think the "why" part of it.
However, I've come to understand that PHB+1 is purely because they want to reduce the amount of books from which each player draws their characters' abilities. PHB+1 keeps things relatively simple.
Plus, it's lesser books to have to carry around by each player, so that's a bonus, I guess. (I don't mind carrying a few kilos of extra. It's good exercise for otherwise very stationary hobby )Please be mindful of what you say in public; sadly not all can handle sarcasm or The Internet Credibility.
My Homebrew:
Base Class: Warlord | Roguish Archetype: Inquisitor | Roguish Archetype: Thug | Primal Path: Rage Mage
Ongoing game & character:
Sajan Uttam, human Monk 6/Fist of Irori 3 (Legacy of Fire)
D&D/Pathfinder CV of sorts
3.0 since 2002
3.5 since 2003
4e since 2008
Pathfinder 1e since 2008
5e since 2014
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2019-04-19, 03:18 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Reasons to Restrict Multiclassing?
And thus reduce the necessary buy in, both for players and for DMs. It strongly limits the interactions available.
This is just me, but I find the idea of sitting down at a fresh table with an already generated character to be...wrong. Unless it's organized play (official or not), where there are hard-and-fast rules already in place. To me, character creation and the associated rules happen at session 0, and they're mainly dictated by the setting and the proposed campaign. So "legal build character"(s) just don't exist until there's a table to play at. I guess I don't expect that everything's available until told otherwise; I assume that I'll be told what exists in the world/setting/campaign and anything else just isn't there to be chosen from. To each their own.Dawn of Hope: a 5e setting. http://wiki.admiralbenbo.org
Rogue Equivalent Damage calculator, now prettier and more configurable!
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NIH System PDF Up to date main-branch build version.
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2019-04-19, 03:21 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Reasons to Restrict Multiclassing?
For all that I have posted, I will allow just about anything into my games.
(Normally I don't allow Bugbear, Yuan-ti or Gnoll PCs, but a good Character idea and story can convince me.)
I might ask "why?" But, that's about it.
I love it when the Players work with me on building their Histories.
So far, all my Players like my games.
I don't do (play or run) AL, since I like to have more options available for both myself and my Players.Last edited by Great Dragon; 2019-04-19 at 10:46 PM.
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2019-04-19, 03:27 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Reasons to Restrict Multiclassing?
Oh, absolutely. I've never been a fan of AL. My interest for playing AL is greatly diminished by the absolutely ridiculous "PHB+1" restriction. If the player wants to make a character using bits and pieces from three or more books, then go for it. Whether I'm a DM or a player, I'm bringing them all with me anyway, and everyone at our table can borrow them if they need to check out something. It's not like the books would contaminate or something.
To be honest, Pathfinder Society is a much better in that they don't really restrict players as much as AL (of course, as a similarly globally overseen living campaign there are some restrictions in place, but they're fine as they are).Last edited by Arkhios; 2019-04-19 at 03:30 PM.
Please be mindful of what you say in public; sadly not all can handle sarcasm or The Internet Credibility.
My Homebrew:
Base Class: Warlord | Roguish Archetype: Inquisitor | Roguish Archetype: Thug | Primal Path: Rage Mage
Ongoing game & character:
Sajan Uttam, human Monk 6/Fist of Irori 3 (Legacy of Fire)
D&D/Pathfinder CV of sorts
3.0 since 2002
3.5 since 2003
4e since 2008
Pathfinder 1e since 2008
5e since 2014