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  1. - Top - End - #61
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    Default Re: Pact of the Blade

    This thread if effin’ painful to read...

  2. - Top - End - #62
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    Default Re: Pact of the Blade

    Quote Originally Posted by jaappleton View Post
    This thread if effin’ painful to read...
    all RAW says this threads are.
    Quote Originally Posted by MaxWilson View Post
    Just, please don't. Insisting on that technicality improves nothing.

  3. - Top - End - #63
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    Default Re: Pact of the Blade

    I would like to point out that on D&D Beyond (the official digital toolset for 5e, coded under the guidance of the 5e design team), when you mark that a magic weapon - say a Flame Tongue, for the sake of example - is your pact weapon, you begin adding your proficiency bonus to your attack rolls, regardless of which patron you have and whether or not you're proficient with the weapon outside it being your pact weapon.

  4. - Top - End - #64
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    Default Re: Pact of the Blade

    Quote Originally Posted by Rsp29a View Post
    So what is transforming about the weapon? Is it an emotional transformation? And as we know it transformed into the pact weapon, why doesn’t it get the abilities of being a pact weapon?
    asked and answered.

    transformed from a magic weapon without any pact weapon abilities to a magic weapon with [some] pact weapon abilities.

    it doesn't get all of the abilities because the specific rule (this weapon appears when it is created) overrides the general pact weapon abilities.



    Quote Originally Posted by DracoKnight View Post
    I would like to point out that on D&D Beyond (the official digital toolset for 5e, coded under the guidance of the 5e design team), when you mark that a magic weapon - say a Flame Tongue, for the sake of example - is your pact weapon, you begin adding your proficiency bonus to your attack rolls, regardless of which patron you have and whether or not you're proficient with the weapon outside it being your pact weapon.
    interesting, i assumed you would have to do that manually.
    Last edited by NaughtyTiger; 2019-04-14 at 03:50 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by MaxWilson View Post
    Just, please don't. Insisting on that technicality improves nothing.

  5. - Top - End - #65
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    Default Re: Pact of the Blade

    Quote Originally Posted by jaappleton View Post
    This thread if effin’ painful to read...
    Who knew when I started this lol.

    Quote Originally Posted by KyleG View Post
    Can someone please clarify something:
    1. I can make any weapon i want with my pact of the blade from a whip to a great axe, and it can differ each time i summon it?
    2. Assuming the above if i get a longsword +2 and perform the ritual, do i thereafter have to summon a longsword to get the +2 (or other magical effects?) the next time i summon?

    3.And given that dismissing your weapon doesn't require an action is there any mechanical reason i shouldn't ask my dm to have the summoning of the weapon also not take an action?
    1. Confirmed. Sweet.
    3. Answered for now. To discuss more with players and dm.
    2. Contentious...a question for the sages perhaps, but I submit that the wording of the magical weapon may determine how this works in practice, despite the pact weapon raw.

    The other topic being addressed here is proficiency. As a hex blade its not so relevant to me but certainly its generating some interesting discussion.

  6. - Top - End - #66
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    Default Re: Pact of the Blade

    Quote Originally Posted by NaughtyTiger View Post
    interesting, i assumed you would have to do that manually.
    Technically you do. You toggle “on” that it’s your Pact Weapon, and once you do, it gives you proficiency with said weapon, no matter what the weapon is.

  7. - Top - End - #67
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    Default Re: Pact of the Blade

    Personally I would be hesitant on using a character builder as evidence. It could be because that is how the designers told them it should work or it could be an unintentional interaction of how they designed the builder to work.
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  8. - Top - End - #68
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    Default Re: Pact of the Blade

    Quote Originally Posted by MeeposFire View Post
    Personally I would be hesitant on using a character builder as evidence. It could be because that is how the designers told them it should work or it could be an unintentional interaction of how they designed the builder to work.
    Normally I would agree with you, except that this is the official digital toolset for 5e. If something wasn't supposed to work that way, they would've changed it. They update with every Sage Advice and Errata.

  9. - Top - End - #69
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    Default Re: Pact of the Blade

    What would be the downside, the horrible outcome, of "erring" on the side of the player getting a bit of extra utility and cool out of the combination of "powers" in question here?
    It is one thing to suspend your disbelief. It is another thing entirely to hang it by the neck until dead.

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    The concern is not realism in speculative fiction, but rather the sense that a setting or story could be real, fostered by internal consistency and coherence.

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  10. - Top - End - #70
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    Default Re: Pact of the Blade

    Quote Originally Posted by Max_Killjoy View Post
    What would be the downside, the horrible outcome, of "erring" on the side of the player getting a bit of extra utility and cool out of the combination of "powers" in question here?
    Whenever the GM makes a ruling in favor of a player, that's more fun for him.
    Whenever you state that RAW is ambivalent, and the GM can interpret how he sees fit, you empower him.
    When you try to weasel out with weak wisdom to force feed your fantasy, you put your GM in a weak spot.

    There's nothing worse than munchkins going forum-shopping until they get the answer they want and pressure their GM. I'm sure most of you have seen that happen. Dishonesty should always be stumped out.


    Even if most players agree with SA that your pact weapon is locked out in a single shape, you can still ask you GM to give you a little freebie. He'll judge if there's a downside or not.
    Trust but verify. There's usually a reason why I believe you can't do something.

  11. - Top - End - #71
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    Default Re: Pact of the Blade

    Quote Originally Posted by Max_Killjoy View Post
    What would be the downside, the horrible outcome, of "erring" on the side of the player getting a bit of extra utility and cool out of the combination of "powers" in question here?
    not sure there is a horrible downside. i am curious to try it next time I DM. but at my table, i would consider it a house rule.
    Quote Originally Posted by MaxWilson View Post
    Just, please don't. Insisting on that technicality improves nothing.

  12. - Top - End - #72
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    Default Re: Pact of the Blade

    Quote Originally Posted by DracoKnight View Post
    I would like to point out that on D&D Beyond (the official digital toolset for 5e, coded under the guidance of the 5e design team), when you mark that a magic weapon - say a Flame Tongue, for the sake of example - is your pact weapon, you begin adding your proficiency bonus to your attack rolls, regardless of which patron you have and whether or not you're proficient with the weapon outside it being your pact weapon.
    D&D Beyond is endorsed by WotC, but it's 3rd party site with no actual connection to any of 5e designers. It's also full of various 3rd party stuff.

  13. - Top - End - #73
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    Default Re: Pact of the Blade

    Quote Originally Posted by JackPhoenix View Post
    D&D Beyond is endorsed by WotC, but it's 3rd party site with no actual connection to any of 5e designers. It's also full of various 3rd party stuff.
    I am aware of all of this. However, it remains that it IS the official 5e Digital toolset.

  14. - Top - End - #74
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    Default Re: Pact of the Blade

    Quote Originally Posted by DracoKnight View Post
    I am aware of all of this. However, it remains that it IS the official 5e Digital toolset.
    That doesn't mean it's 100% reliable. The designers themselves aren't, so why should a 3rd party website?

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    Default Re: Pact of the Blade

    Quote Originally Posted by Max_Killjoy View Post
    What would be the downside, the horrible outcome, of "erring" on the side of the player getting a bit of extra utility and cool out of the combination of "powers" in question here?
    You get to read a bunch of JC fanboys' forum posts copying & pasting his tweets to prove that you're playing D&D BADLY.

    It happened to me, and it totally ruined my whole day. Took me like, 25 whole seconds to ignore list all of them, and it was a serious inconvenience. Be afraid. Be very afraid.
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  16. - Top - End - #76
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    Default Re: Pact of the Blade

    You cannot create a ranged weapon without an invocation from XGE, but you can bond to ranged weapon

    So let's pretend the magic weapon could change form every time you summon it.

    if you bonded with an Oathbow, you would need improved Pact weapon just to summon it as a bow.
    if you bonded with your +1 hand crossbow, you can't actually summon it as a +1 hand crossbow.
    Quote Originally Posted by MaxWilson View Post
    Just, please don't. Insisting on that technicality improves nothing.

  17. - Top - End - #77
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    Default Re: Pact of the Blade

    Quote Originally Posted by Chronos View Post
    Yeah, that specific weapon is your pact weapon. Whenever you create your pact weapon, that's the one that you get, so if that specific weapon had a +1, or did extra fire damage, or whatever, you still get the +1 or the extra fire damage. In addition, whenever you create your pact weapon, you can change what kind of weapon it is, so you're changing the kind of weapon of that specific magic weapon that is your pact weapon. So it was a trident before, and now it's the same weapon, but now that weapon is a longsword. How did that happen? Magic, obviously.
    100% false

  18. - Top - End - #78
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    Default Re: Pact of the Blade

    Quote Originally Posted by MThurston View Post
    100% false
    Welcome to 5e. This edition is different from previous editions. I recommend reading the phb and xge to learn about the warlock. Reading the rules will help you become a good player, and one day a Good DM. Good gaming friend
    Quote Originally Posted by MaxWilson View Post
    Just, please don't. Insisting on that technicality improves nothing.

  19. - Top - End - #79
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    Default Re: Pact of the Blade

    Quote Originally Posted by NaughtyTiger View Post
    asked and answered.

    transformed from a magic weapon without any pact weapon abilities to a magic weapon with [some] pact weapon abilities.
    So the sword doesn’t actually change at all then. So not really a “transformation” per the definition of the word, as you describe the process.

    Quote Originally Posted by NaughtyTiger View Post
    it doesn't get all of the abilities because the specific rule (this weapon appears when it is created) overrides the general pact weapon abilities.
    “You can use your action to create a pact weapon in your empty hand. You can choose the form that this melee weapon takes each time you create it (see the Weapons section for weapon options). You are proficient with it while you wield it. This weapon counts as magical for the purpose of overcoming resistance and immunity to nonmagical attacks and damage.

    Your pact weapon disappears if it is more than 5 feet away from you for 1 minute or more. It also disappears if you use this feature again, if you dismiss the weapon (no action required), or if you die.”

    So here, we learn all about what a pact weapon can do. It can be summoned, the Warlock can choose the form it takes, the Warlock is proficient with it while wielding it, the pact weapon counts as magical, and will disappear if it’s more than 5’ for a minute.

    These are the abilities a pact weapon has.

    Now we move on to the part about bonding a weapon:

    “You can transform one magic weapon into your pact weapon by performing a special ritual while you hold the weapon.”

    Here’s that line again. The magic weapon transforms into a pact weapon. So whatever weapon you bond, it transforms into your pact weapon. Now we can go reread the prior two paragraphs to see what abilities a pact weapon has, which this weapon has transformed to be.

    Again, the weapon transforms into a pact weapon, and therefore, has the abilities of a pact weapon.

  20. - Top - End - #80
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    Default Re: Pact of the Blade

    Quote Originally Posted by jaappleton View Post
    This thread if effin’ painful to read...
    Agreed.

    Sheesh.
    It is one thing to suspend your disbelief. It is another thing entirely to hang it by the neck until dead.

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  21. - Top - End - #81
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    Default Re: Pact of the Blade

    Quote Originally Posted by Rsp29a View Post
    snip
    i do like how you don't quote the whole text of the transformation, leaving out the specific rule that limits the general pact weapon ability and then claiming there is no rule. very tricksy.

    i will use your technique, ask questions instead of answering them:
    • summon my Oathbow as a club, does it use longbow base damage (1d8) or club base damage (1d4)?
    • how is adding the ability to summon and be proficient with a specific magic weapon is NOT a transformation?
    • how is a dagger with the properties of an Oathbow is still an Oathbow?
    • how is a +1 hand crossbow a +1 hand crossbow if you can't summon it as a hand crossbow?
    • since base pact weapon doesn't transform into anything, how does transforming a magic weapon into a pact weapon mean it has to transform into different shapes?



    Quote Originally Posted by jaappleton View Post
    This thread if effin’ painful to read...
    why is it painful to read?
    Last edited by NaughtyTiger; 2019-04-15 at 10:18 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by MaxWilson View Post
    Just, please don't. Insisting on that technicality improves nothing.

  22. - Top - End - #82
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    Default Re: Pact of the Blade

    Quote Originally Posted by NaughtyTiger View Post
    Welcome to 5e. This edition is different from previous editions. I recommend reading the phb and xge to learn about the warlock. Reading the rules will help you become a good player, and one day a Good DM. Good gaming friend
    I have read it many times.

    It does not say at all that you can re-forge a magical weapon into anything you want.

    It clearly states that you can make a magical weapon your pact weapon. It does not say that you can then change that weapon into anything you want.

    If so you could make that weapon a whip and give it to your whip user to use because magic whips are way rare.

    It's a good try though. Power gaming at its best.

  23. - Top - End - #83
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    Default Re: Pact of the Blade

    Quote Originally Posted by MThurston View Post
    snip.
    you said 100% false.

    Chronos said:
    that specific weapon is your pact weapon - true
    if that specific weapon:
    had a +1, you still get the +1 - true
    did extra fire damage you still get the extra fire damage -true
    so you're changing the kind of weapon of that specific magic weapon that is your pact weapon. - false

    so 3 true statements and 1 false statement. that is closer to 25% false.

    you didn't actually explain your view, so either i take you literally or assume you are just being confrontational.... i now see you were just confrontational.

    of course, if you had actually read the thread you would notice that for once, you and i have the same interpretation (now that you have actually stated your view)
    Last edited by NaughtyTiger; 2019-04-15 at 11:45 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by MaxWilson View Post
    Just, please don't. Insisting on that technicality improves nothing.

  24. - Top - End - #84
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    Default Re: Pact of the Blade

    Quote Originally Posted by NaughtyTiger View Post
    you said 100% false.

    Chronos said:
    that specific weapon is your pact weapon - true
    if that specific weapon:
    had a +1, you still get the +1 - true
    did extra fire damage you still get the extra fire damage -true
    so you're changing the kind of weapon of that specific magic weapon that is your pact weapon. - false

    so 3 true statements and 1 false statement. that is closer to 25% false.

    you didn't actually explain your view, so either i take you literally or assume you are just being confrontational.... i now see you were just confrontational.

    of course, if you had actually read the thread you would notice that for once, you and i have the same interpretation (now that you have actually stated your view)
    100% false statement.

    This wasn't a question and answer session. There wasn't question number 1, question 2.

    100% false statement.

    You don't get points for being part right.
    Last edited by MThurston; 2019-04-15 at 12:35 PM.

  25. - Top - End - #85
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    Default Re: Pact of the Blade

    Quote Originally Posted by Max_Killjoy View Post
    What would be the downside, the horrible outcome, of "erring" on the side of the player getting a bit of extra utility and cool out of the combination of "powers" in question here?
    Can't have that. It would go against precedent!
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  26. - Top - End - #86
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    Default Re: Pact of the Blade

    Quote Originally Posted by NaughtyTiger View Post
    your turn, how is adding the ability to summon and be proficient with a specific magic weapon is NOT a transformation?
    how is a dagger with the properties of an Oathbow is still an Oathbow?
    I agree with you, but here is my question: a warlock has the Blade Pact but not IPW. He cannot summon a longbow and is not proficient in it.

    He finds an Oathbow and designates it his pact weapon. Ok, now when he summons it he is proficient with the Oathbow (since it is his pact weapon) even though he would not be able to create one and he doesn’t have IPW.

    Seems wrong, and as a DM I would probably rule that he can only bond with a weapon he could otherwise summon.

  27. - Top - End - #87
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    Default Re: Pact of the Blade

    Quote Originally Posted by patchyman View Post
    I agree with you, but here is my question: a warlock has the Blade Pact but not IPW. He cannot summon a longbow and is not proficient in it.

    He finds an Oathbow and designates it his pact weapon. Ok, now when he summons it he is proficient with the Oathbow (since it is his pact weapon) even though he would not be able to create one and he doesn’t have IPW.

    Seems wrong, and as a DM I would probably rule that he can only bond with a weapon he could otherwise summon.
    JC originally said the RAI was that you could only bond with summonable weapons, but relented that RAW you could bond with a ranged weapon.
    so your ruling would be legit

    I contend that he can summon (and be proficient in) the magic weapon and only that weapon in that form. So he can summon that Oathbow and only as a longbow. he isn't creating the bow from pure magic, just summoning it (i am using inconsistent language vs the PHB).
    Last edited by NaughtyTiger; 2019-04-15 at 12:48 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by MaxWilson View Post
    Just, please don't. Insisting on that technicality improves nothing.

  28. - Top - End - #88
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    Default Re: Pact of the Blade

    Quote Originally Posted by NaughtyTiger View Post

    why is it painful to read?
    Rules lawyering is bad; inept rules lawyering is even worse, and deliberately inept rules lawyering for powergaming purposes is... oh, just see my sig. I'm not about to try explaining Pact of the Blade RAW to anyone who doesn't actually want to understand it. That's a non-starter.

    This isn't directed at you specifically, NaughtyTiger. But others participating in this "discussion" are doing so in bad faith and I consider engaging with them a waste of time.
    Last edited by JakOfAllTirades; 2019-04-15 at 02:20 PM.
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  29. - Top - End - #89
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    Default Re: Pact of the Blade

    I think I will concede that a pact weapon that takes the traits but not the form of a magical weapon is probably not the intended design note necessarily practical. Unless I settle on a weapon style I'm inclined to keep any magical weapon found as a sheathed option and continue to get flexibility from the pact weapon. Ill also try to get the dm to rule the pact weapon summoning as the same as drawing a weapon not an action once per combat.

  30. - Top - End - #90
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    Default Re: Pact of the Blade

    Funny thought... add to IPW the ability to bind and "carry" extra enchanted weapons equal to your Ability modifier (CHA by default, other if DM allows INTlocks or whatever).
    Last edited by Max_Killjoy; 2019-04-15 at 03:56 PM.
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